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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JawDroppingPhilosopher" data-source="post: 26706" data-attributes="member: 1630"> May i ask KDS1980, looking at the above quote from you, would the person who had a closed mind be more likely to speak these words? Or someone with an open mind? . Wrong again, i am open minded, i look at everyones beliefs and opinions, i let go of prison religions something which you cannot seem to grasp the conceptuality of. Religious preachers are the most closed minded people on earth, they see things from their single point of view. I am happy being free, i am more in touch with a higher level of learning, i learn from sikhs, i learn from muslims and Hindu's and i can understand were Guru Nanak was coming from, something i believe MAX now realises. Guru Nanak also had no religion, why do you? He was open minded, why arnt you? MAX you said to me that i may become the one thing i despise the most, i am aware of this, yet i believe Sikhism itself has fallen into this trap, you have formed a religion just like Islam, you have become what you originally hated the idea of. Or what your Guru hated the idea of, but you dont wish to follow his wishes do you KDS1980? We will discuss this last point later on in the text.  KDS1980, im actually glad to see your still here, i do at times feel i am battling a computer system with one piece of software when i talk to you.  As soon as you decided to post in a way which challenges your single minded theory against my freedom of thought outside the boundaries of prison-religion you have tried to stop me.  Right, and maybe if you look at the presentation and structure of your own language you would realise that you do not blame a reader for not understanding if you cannot interpret your thoughts appropriately using english text. You can carry on with your judgemental ways yet i myself and many other people who know me would highly disagree with your above statement.  Unless they travel back in time and convince all of your Gurus to let the caste system remain ill never be interested in their excuse for following a caste system when told by their own Guru's not to. JATTWORLD? Do you think your Gurus would be members of that if they were alive today? Get the point. Your own religion says you should not believe in the caste system, you still do, in that case you will be punished by your god. If you wanna be JATT then why do you spit on your entire belief by calling yourself a sikh? Your not sikh, none of you sikh/jatt people are, your just lost individuals who are trying to change Nanaks views to suit your own personal needs. and create a religion which accepts your caste system. Jatt sikhs are also more likely to eat meat, drink, take drugs etc. For if they are able to defy their Guru's wishes once they are more likely to sin again.  I thought you wanted to remove ego, start from yourself, i dont know why you concearn yourself with these kind of people. So now you agree with what im saying, do you also agree that differences such as skin colour are petty? Because i bet you do now. something which you previously disagreed with.   I dont know if your questions are rhetoric, but i think if your are genuinly a good person then you wont be living with the guilt of commiting bad deeds, you create your own hell. If you think that our leaders are not corrupt then you are a complete idiot, everybody knows money and power corrupts. I dont trust Tony Blair, ive lived under his government since he came to power and i can say nothing good about him, he has destroyed our National Health Service, our Fireservice and policing in this country is completely violent and racist toward asian youths.  Lol, so your saying if all people just ignore these proven sikh scholars who have actually been in court to plead their "innocence". Then the world would be a better place? We should just ignore it? NO, why should i let these so called devil sikh scholars get away with their lavish mansions and cars through exploitation of the "sheep-like" mentality of the people who give them money. Get real. There are thousends of charities out there, your Gudwaras arnt the light of the world you know, they aint an answer to poverty. No way, infact religion ADDS to poverty. Why do you think the Vatican were so scared of Communism? Because under communism they would not be getting away with their massive exploitation of the poor. This is why Christianity is so conservative. You need to look at religion on a bigger scale and not just what food they give out at the langar hall, im talking about religion playing a part in politics, financially corrupt institutions which we know as religion. Infact if they aint corrupting themselves and stealing they are usually funding their own agenda, their own religion, just like christians who set up missionaries to go to africa, Christian Aid is an example, these people are only concearned with converting Africans to Christianity. Before Islam gets to them, lol do you see how stupid this is? Religion is not a way to give to the poor and is certainly not the answer to poverty, sure it provides shelter but so does the National Health Service. okay? You want these poor hindus to have to rely on handouts for the rest of their lives? No forget that. Thats only happening in your sikh demented world KDS1980. We need change, economic change, forget your ideas KDS1980, they aint gonna work, abandon all hope if you wanna believe that the Gudwara will save the planet, wipe out poverty cause it aint happenin my poor friend. People in the third world dont need hand outs   I dont know what your on about, but you do nothing BUT debate for your ego, what your doing is trying to keep your belief alive knowing that if you actually do open your mind and consider what i say it will show yourself as weak. Look at all the times you have claimed you have won this debate...   And you say im debating for MY ego? im not here to win a debate im here to open your mind!!! Your purpose is not to have fun but to egotistically prove that a belief system you have been brought up on, a belief system which has been through your family for generations even though it is ridden with hypocrisy, misteachings and corruption, that this particular belief system is the one true channel path to god, and is the light of the world. Well i am proving to you it is not. And so are your own people by their actions. Thats a hard loss... Id say you have the biggest ego to uphold:wink:   Yes false pride of your so called family tradition of religion, ego through the fact you dont want to be proved wrong because you are so proud of this 300 year old concept which has been taught in completely the wrong way and formed what it origionally opposed. You have destroyed your own main Gurus Beliefs in non religion and freedom of thought..KDS1980,  Nanak has same ideas as me, freedom from religion, freedom of thought.... would you compare him to Hitler? THIS IS WHY YOU SAID NOW THAT YOU DID NOT COMPARE ME TO HITLER BECAUSE HE WAS ANTI-RELIGIOUS... (well, that and the fact i proved he was religious)  I did not say that blade you carry on your side is for beheadings. You asked me to explain how sikhism has a violent history, i said the most obvious things, a history of beheadings, murders and wars. Whats wrong? You sikhs are usually proud of killing so many muslims... now your denying it?  No you were not expressing a view you were clearly stateing that i should blame every other country and stop picking on America for the Iraq war, you talk complete rubbish, you always change what you say.  Orthodox: adhering to what is commonly accepted So you believe that sikhs should eat meat now? lol, this is not commonly accepted you idiot you cant even follow your religion properly, you not only follow caste, something which sikhism tries to remove but now you eat meat and think its right? Do they serve meat at your Temple? Or at the Golden Temple?  And when did i say they should wear 5k's?... Is there a problem with your english or reading because i did not say a word regarding that sikhs shouldnt wear the 5k's.  You are a complete hypocrite on a level that is obsurd! You call me exactly the same things i call you! Not even that, you change the reasons why you call me things over and over again, first you call me crazy for my beliefs, then you say its because i get angry... Make your mind up or stop lieing. the truth is that you think im crazy for having freedom of thought!! FOR HAVING NO PARTICULAR RELIGION!!! And as soon as i hit you with the fact that Guru Nanak had the same freedom of thought and non religious nature you decided to change your story to.... "I called you crazy because of your abusive language" You are a complete liar, you always change what you say. SO DID YOU THINK GURU NANAK WAS CRAZY?  KDS1980, YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOUR OWN BELIEFS, I HATE TO SAY IT BUT YOU ARE CLEARLY MAKING A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF. KDS1980 says...  DRKHALSA says..   These two idiots are trying to contradict me, yet they are contradicting themselves, it is laughable! Does it hurt you to know that Guru Nanak wouldnt even agree with this "sikh organisation" or "brotherhood", or new age hinduism you are following?  LOL so you admit it was used before sikhism, i know about this!! Rajput kings were also followers of Jainism, this religion has evolved from hinduism which has evolved from babylonian religions.. Thank you KDS1980 you have made the connection of how lion symbology got from Babylonian eras to sikhism:}{}{}:  Thanks mate!!! Did Guru Nanak call himself a lion?:whisling:  Just a thought.  No, the meaning was that if DRKHALSA can believe that a man can squeeze blood from a stone hen who is he to call me crazy for believeing in freedom of thought and our infinite universe? I am in no position to call anyone crazy, the fact of the matter is, that you called me crazy for having my belief yet you believe in things that are beyond the parallels of physical belief itself.. In other words, i was branding DRKHALSA and you a hypocrite, not crazy.:}{}{}:  Then you went on to say "in that case the world is full of crazy people!"   Learn how to write proper english then.  How can i have been misunderstood? I remember everything you say and you said the following in a previous post:  So your saying that sikhs should believe in sikhism simply due to the fact that so many people believe in christianity, islam etc. That holds no weight and does not render probable that sikhism is true:}{}{}: These religions are just repeated stories of ancient babylonian myths, people have been caught up in the cycle that they are brought up to believe which results in a mass belief system which everyone feels they must follow. Because it runs in line with what is seen as "normal" in society... Thus answering the reason why DRKHALSA called me crazy so many times, i simply do not follow his "norms" of society:}{}{}:  I guess those who dont follow the sheep are considered crazy, well ill stand by my freedom of thought and if DR KHALSA or KDS1980 doesnt like it then im no longer concearned. I follow open thought.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />  You still implyd the same thing, that if these religions are not true then all of these people must be psychos, i would not go as far as to call them psycho's as an answer to your question yet i would not call these people open minded or inquisitive about their belief.:}{}{}:  You can twist meanings round from your words all you like, the fact remains the same, i know exactly what you were implying when you first spoke of a mass of people believing in a certain religion, anyone would, im not stupid, dont insult my intelligence if you have yet to aquire your own:}{}{}:  Again your original meaning was that how can all these people be crazy? I simply said they are not crazy yet we cannot measure truth in mass appeal. Again you have changed the meaning of your words to prolong the debate. Yes and also told me to get off this planet because i did not follow these brainwashed mass such as christians and muslims and sikhs. So free thinkers should get off this planet? Would you have told Guru Nanak to get off this planet? That does not make sense.  HOW AM I RIGID IN THEORY? i ALWAYS SAY I AM OPEN MINDED! i LOOK AT BOTH SIDES i HAVE STUDIED YOUR RELIGION, IF I ARGUE WITH MUSLIM I STUDY THEIRS!! you have not once studied my beliefs once!! AND YOU CALL ME "RIGID IN THEORY"??? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS? YOU SAID?........ AND I QUOTE  So you call me Hitler because he was anti-religious? (thats your comparritive point, that Hitler was anti-religious LIKE me, you cant change that now, its too late)... and now you say...  but the reason of your comparison clearly states that you compared me TO THAT INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE I WAS ANTI-RELIGIOUS.... THEREFORE YOU BELIEVE HITLER WAS ANTI-RELIGIOUS OR ELSE THERE WOULD BE NO COMPARISON... SO NOW YOUR SAYING HITLER WAS NOT ANTI RELIGIOUS... SO NOW IM NOT LIKE HIM IN THE WAY YOU FIRST THOUGHT? This is clear proof that KDS1980 is changing everything he says in his debates, the sign of a loser if you ask me. I think KDS1980 you should think before you speak, because i do not forget what you say. You cannot twist words and meanings after you have spoken them... Everyone will notice.  I dont care if MAX does not support my views, atleast he respects the freedom of thought which he himself has unlike you. And i say no to religion, so did Guru Nanak, i say no to caste, so did your other gurus, i say yes to freedom of thought and the POWER OF INFINITE THOUGHT. Guru Nanak was also a free thinker. KDS1980, dont you wish to compare Guru Nanak to Hitler being as he is anti-religious?  Do you understand the stupidity of yourself now?  MAX i think you have a stalker:{-<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />   You will find these people in capitalistic societies, we must be positive for humankind not for ourselves. Not for our bank accounts. These people you see with flash, money etc, they dont last, they will usually end up in a very sorry state addicted to drugs because they became trapped in the spiral of desire. lol i went a bit off there but these people dont bother me.. If you drove to an Africans house with a bentley or a Mercedes who has never seen a car in his life, this African would see no value in this car would he? Egotism is the fuel of capitalistic societies. Albert Einstein. Thats a good read... Why socialism by Albert Einstein.  I KNOW ITS NOT THE ONLY THING WHICH DIVIDES SOCIETY! I DIDNT SAY RELIGION WAS THE ONLY THING!  But the differences you speak of are completely petty, if some girl is upset because she is ugly then she has failed to see that beauty that lies within. And if one cannot join the army because of ones height then tough luck, be thankful and show gratitude for what you have! You can breathe! You have freedom of thought!! You have food, water, shelter! These things people take for granted and delve into thoughts of ... why arnt i tall enough? why am i ugly?  Why do people find so much attatchment to beauty? why do these people care about petty things like the height of one? BE THANKFUL FOR WHAT YOU HAVE!!!  No i dont "hate" them, I SEE PAST THEM! JUST LIKE I "SEE PAST" RELIGION! You may visualise these differences but that is the kind of mindset you have! You see value in being beautiful, you see value in having money, I DONT I HAVE THOUGHT, THE ABILITY TO EXPRESS THOUGHT AND FREEDOM OF THIS IS ENOUGH FOR ME I SHOW MUCH GRATITUDE TOWARD GOD FOR GIVING ME THIS INFINITE POWER!  I bet you are happy, how about you researching my beliefs? I have read your first post, i said to you from the start that we are all one people! We are one, islam and sikhism christians and hindus are one, it is religion which keeps us divided. I said from the start that we are divided from mere words And your own Gurus agree with me.. I have clearly proved you wrong with your own theorem, i guess this speaks for my higher position in this debate.  I always have believed that history is written in the eyes of the winner.  Your purpose of debate is not successful, in that you cannot even follow your own scriptures lol. You follow caste. You believe in eating meat. You believe we are not one as a people. I think you should re-read your own scriptures, i have already said that your religion may sound "utopic" in theory but thats all it is, in practice it does not work. And this is my point, you dont practice sikhism correctly, Guru Nanak did not tell you to create a religion He did not tell you to build a home for God out of gold. He did not tell you to follow caste He did not tell you to eat meat He did not tell you to be closed minded SO please... would you like to explain how you have been successful? lol. Even so, if i am doing right in the eyes of Guru Nanak by following God and no religion, then what is your problem? Your original point was that sikhs and muslims are not one people. Yet i suggest you find Guru Nanak and ask him the same because he will disagree with you. So no... you have completely lost this debate and gone onto several political areas which you yourself cannot understand. You have completely taken Guru Nanaks beliefs and guidance and misslead them, the youth will be taught your ignorance and nothing will change, this is the nature of being closed minded.  The pictures you speak of are also artists impressions, they did not know what happend out there, how sikhs acted against the mughals. They dont know if any of these mthological tales are even true, there is no evidence of any of these people existing. The scripts could have been based upon hindu/islamic thologians who have been completely taken out of context and formed a prison religion filled with corruption. Infact they dont even know how Guru Nanak looked like, how could they? Did his mother order an artist over to paint him? No these are artists impressions, you bow down to artists work in the Temple... Thats really the proper teachings of sikhism isnt it? lol Now you are really getting close to Guru Nanak or God... Some sikhs actually believe Guru Nanak was jesus Some believe he was a prophet Some dont. Some believe he was God... Its all the same thing, you cannot free your mind if you are in this state.  If you want to remove desire then you have to also remove the desire of wanting to remove desire. This is what monotheistic religions such as sikhism cannot and will never achieve. It has been proved for 300 years your religion has not worked. It has been proven for thousends of years that religion itself will not work.  You sound like some kind of buddah, this may have sounded fantastic 300 years ago but it seems like common sense today. Thanks for this "revelation" are you meditating? Because i suggest you wake up from your half-sleeping state of brain and look at the world around you.  Could you firstly provide me a quote in which i specificly said that the sikh scriptures are a copy of the bible or the quran? Because i think your making things up again. I meant we are one as a people, a conceptuality which you have in some sense finally realised so i have been completely successful in this debate. I have also proved you wrong when you compared me to Hitler, you compared me on a basis that i was anti-religious, yet i have used probabe facts (something which you have clearly not used) to once again rise above you in this debate. You also claimed that being anti-religious was bad and i should be locked up in a mental hospital for this, yet your own Guru Nanak had no religion and preached freedom from religion, again an area of this debate in which i have suceeded in clearly. You call yourself a learner, (sikh) yet how on earth can you learn if you have such a closed mind? Do you really think that the sikh scriptures are the end to learning for mankind? I doubt it, i suggest you open your mind, and if you really call yourself a sikh, then you open your mind and become more like Nanak and appreciate the freedom of thought which God has blessed us with. I do not feel the need to continue this debate, i have clearly suceeded in the arguements you have placed, you compared me to Hitler, your educational facts of the cause of the Middle Eastern crisis were completely inaccurate, you contradict your own faith, your true creator of sikhism did not wish for you to create a new religion. I also felt the need to correct you several times on subjects which had nothing to do with this debate.  I can understand why i should not shout at people, you should not patronize me aswel, i know about debates and if i do not talk like one of your "enlightened" sikh friends then i dont talk with the arrogance of the seeming light you people think you hold. Your one sided opinion really sickens me, the fact that KDS1980, has compared me to hitler. Has called me a psycho and someone in need of mental attention. The fact that DRKHALSA said i should be locked up in a mental institution and controlled by electroc shocks The fact that I was continually insulted called a "stupid idiot", a {censored} etc... And as soon as i say one thing you brand me the one in the wrong? This goes to show of the utter incomptence of the people messaging on these forums, it is clearly one sided, there is no effort to actually consider what i am saying or be open minded as sikhs are supposed to be.  You cannot fight for peace you have to peace for peace, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, if you want to carry on repeating the values portrayed in the past then go ahead. Ive had enough of this, you people are completely wrong in that your own theorem contradicts what you follow, Guru Nanak clearly was non religious, he did not tell you to create a religion To build a house for god out of gold. What they have done is completely contradictory to what your original belief is lol.    </blockquote>

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