Hello Navdeep Ji,
How can I be "intelligent" when my only claim to knowledge is that I know nothing but believe in something?
How can my intention be to be "correct" whenever I speak?
It is unfortunate that you think I speak from some hyper-rational robotic perspective, because each of my thoughts are deeply rooted behind an emotion.
This thread wasn't about YOU or ME, its about atheists and prayer. The subject so vulnerable to inflammation, and so varied and difficult, that every extraction of meaning requires a great deal of thought, great acuity and patience.
I AM NOT HERE TO DEBATE YOU about MY beliefs (debate or one-upmanship is fruitless). Even though debate on the surface appears that you have intention of accepting understanding it rarely does.
You did feel obligated to share your own beliefs, on which, I will continue to refuse to pass sentiment to save what is left of your stated endeavor, 'learning'.
The only true student is the person who is genuinely observing, whose attention is affixed to that of the object, subject, teacher or guru. A studious observer is a person who has abandoned or suspended the barrier (his own beliefs or preconditions), albeit even temporarily. Focused in genuine observation and understanding of 'what is' NOT 'what ought'.
I think, you are caught up in the words...in the definitions...in the labels...in the defenses...trying to get an OUGHT from an IS... not caring for the understanding of the expressions but more so in the flow of them and how they relate to yourself and your own beliefs.
this is evident from post #17 where you ask me to give my view on the pettiness of human labels... to post# 25 where you started to define yourself into a label, separating yourself from me.
the notion that "your buckling" is somehow my reward is nothing more than a sentiment of projection of your own sub-conscious motives. Or. it stems from desires of validation, or it is just a poor exercise of the method to develop understanding, which you yourself claimed to be the tentative goal.
I don't want you to buckle...how powerful do you think I am? that I may have the capacity to kill what you believe? I do want you to understand my position in its entirety and not go out on tangents beyond the immediate agency under scrutiny.
We cannot live and die like animals, slaves to primal emotions/urges that are put on a pedestal. An emotion not welded and collected with thought is just reactionary not revolutionary. And an emotion that is not challenged or accepted is an emotion that is not welded in thought.
I am stressing Impartiality which is key to you at this point even if it is undesirable to yourself in generating a stimulating "converse-ation" (debate). Therefore, if you make statements or wish to share something, I must state, that you are no longer only here to learn, but here to reach some surface interaction with the observed (in this case the atheist). this will cause an undesirable tangent...why not dedicate yourself entirely? you clearly have the intellect. you can challenge others but can you challenge yourself to impartiality?
read post # 21...because I answered your original question ("would an atheist pray on his deathbed?") to what I believe is an honest relay of sentiment.
if a person prays on his deathbed it is the result of the desirable (taste), spawning from the "will to power" + "will to meaning" + "will to pleasure".
thus their is no difference between the atheist and believer, emotionally or rationally they function the same. metaphysical beliefs (atheist or religious) are merely cosmetic and subservient to the will (gods or ours).
this is my view. take it, turn it up side down, flip it, spin it or leave it.
That is all you got from that Socratic quote? The deeper more interesting question is why did you take a default nihilistic understanding to it?
I think you need to use all your mental acuity and think on it. for example, even at the end of great sorrow the underlying emotion is great passion and love. The cup is either half empty or half full.
The quote, I provided, is a rallying cry for every positivists and humanist I know. A call to arms!
To become an observer, to understand by becoming the skeptic you form the basis for working together with your fellow man on a level ground for purposes much greater than just yourself; to generate understanding with one another, on another for one another. It is a call to become the enlightened or spiritual student that we are destined to become. But always remember, to be a student is to first be impartial, open and willing to work hard to challenge, not others, but your own beliefs. This experience will change the life of all who live by it and the emotions felt from this eureka discovery are truly rewarding, overwhelming, life breathing and boundless.
thats what I get from that very same quote.
