Zafarnama Zafarnama - The Dilemma Of The Dasam Granth

[Randip Singh]

Hi All,

I have been reading the Dasam Granth pro and anti posts with some interest and I must say there are convincing arguments on both sides, but most seem to focus on Chitro Pakhyan.

My question is Zafarnama? Is that genuine or not?

Most people here are aware of my views on the Dasam Granth, so any comments?

 

[Randip Singh]

whoops, I think this maybe a tough nut to crack. No takers :shifty:

 

[spnadmin]

Randip ji

Who can say definitely? In the absence of evidence the null argument has to stand. On Zafaranama,

There are some who question the authenticity of Zafaranama. IMHO their criticism regarding its content is weak. The receipt of Zafaranama was independently verified by at least one Persian source.

Now the counter-argument to that is "Why would you trust a Persian source? " However, my rebuttal in two parts. First, the arch-evil emperor and or his biographer admitted receiving the missive and reported that the emperor and fell sick on reading the Zafaranama. This would not reflect in a positive way on the Persian court. That is an odd narrative which tells me the story might be true. Why would the court describe the event that way, rather than with bravado and outrage? Second, the Persian account is contemporaneous with the story of the Zafaranama itself according to evidence now available. If there is other evidence to show later dates for Zafaranama or the Persian account, then I am wrong. But so far things are a long way better for the Zafaranama than for other sources trying to confirm other parts of Dasam Granth. These are sources that are reconstructed from notes and/or were written many years after the death of Dasam Pita.

The message of Zafarnama in part: Guru Gobind Singh tells the emperor "You are not a good Muslim and here is why." That message is consistent with the teaching of Guru Nanak.

The message of "dharam yudh" also reflects the teachings of Guru Nanak. Yet, there are some who say it does not.

Just want to add: There is a lot of material questioning Bacchitar Natak on the forum already posted. And also information very critical of Chaubis Avtar.

 

[Randip Singh]

So which other parts of Dasam Granth are we saying here are authentic, and which are not?

 

[spnadmin]

I don't know about you, but IMHO, most of it is a hoax. And what is not a hoax is a "maybe."

I choose the word "hoax" deliberately.

 

[Hardip Singh]

So which other parts of Dasam Granth are we saying here are authentic, and which are not?

Randip jee,
To judge this we have to use only and only the standerds as prescibed in SGGS jee. However, still on this basis even the judgement could vary from person to person depending upon the level of his understandings of the Gurmat principals as per SGGS.
To me, "Jaap" baani and a few other shabads in the whole of DG are as per our basic tenents of SIKHISM and hence, could be from 10th master's pen. Rest is all "milgobha" or a delibrated mixture, as is said in rural Punjabi.

 

[dalbirk]

Dear ALL ,
Kindly visit my blog to read 20 KABITS OF AKAL USTAT . Both sides accepting DG in full & discarding it in full do not have convoncing arguements . Actually part of DG is infact WRITTEN by Tenth master . Please read the blog & I'll be waiting for everybody's response .

Dalbirk

 

[Randip Singh]

Dear ALL ,
Kindly visit my blog to read 20 KABITS OF AKAL USTAT . Both sides accepting DG in full & discarding it in full do not have convoncing arguements . Actually part of DG is infact WRITTEN by Tenth master . Please read the blog & I'll be waiting for everybody's response .

Dalbirk

I think this is my position. Haven't read the blod yet, but we need to do a few things:

1) Carbon date original manuscripts.
2) Have expert hand writing analysis. It is quite evident Sabinderjit Singh Sagar that various texts including Hukamana's published by Dr Gandha Singh (as put forward by Bhai Randhir Singh) are fakes. Maybe parts of this are too.
3) Get a consensus. Accepting or not accepting Dasam Granth does not make one unaccepted. The message is "Guru Maneo Granth", not Guru Maneo Dasam Granth.
4) The Tenth Master made it clear that Bani was complete and needed no input from him, so why the issue.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The moment we go into "need" for dsm bani..we are saying..the GURU IS INCOMPLETE..NOT SAMRAATH.NOT "Martail ENOUGH"...etc etc..

Dont beleive me...??

ADSM one of the oldest soldiers in the pro-dg brigade wrote recently on IHRO..."Can the Sukhmani make a Banda Singh bahadur ?????? THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK ON SGGS. adms fellow had made many many such attacks in the past..but i am quoting just one point form his most recentmails vis a vis the Jeonwalla debate which he toes the POrg line that panthic singhs won a great victory blah blh blah...

This is the TOTALLY FAKE POSITION often taken by the pro dgs...no amrit without Dg, no khalsa without dg, no sikhs without Dg etc etc..which means that its ALL due to DG and the SGGS is just an appendage that came earlier...its only merit" is age !! seniority !!

The FACT of the matter is the Nitnem Banis, the "Pahul" Banis are a creation of the SRM in 1930. SRM is made by the Guru Khalsa Panth and is NOT GURU/GURBANI and thus CAN be changed. It can be changed/amended as per the Panth's wishes.

FIRST and FOREMOST we must ALL accept UNCONDITIONALLY that the SGGS is complete smarath GURU and fully capable of making us the KHALSA we are. The rest can come later. Guru Gobind Singh Ji ORDERED us to do that. We are second guessing the GURU when we go outside the SGGS to seek those banis that make or break the Khalsa.The KHALSA was created by GURU NANAK JI....and is a Upashak of the SGGS as the rightful GURU on the Gaddee of GURU NANAK JI.:happy:

 

[Randip Singh]

The moment we go into "need" for dsm bani..we are saying..the GURU IS INCOMPLETE..NOT SAMRAATH.NOT "Martail ENOUGH"...etc etc..

Dont beleive me...??

ADSM one of the oldest soldiers in the pro-dg brigade wrote recently on IHRO..."Can the Sukhmani make a Banda Singh bahadur ?????? THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK ON SGGS. adms fellow had made many many such attacks in the past..but i am quoting just one point form his most recentmails vis a vis the Jeonwalla debate which he toes the POrg line that panthic singhs won a great victory blah blh blah...

This is the TOTALLY FAKE POSITION often taken by the pro dgs...no amrit without Dg, no khalsa without dg, no sikhs without Dg etc etc..which means that its ALL due to DG and the SGGS is just an appendage that came earlier...its only merit" is age !! seniority !!

The FACT of the matter is the Nitnem Banis, the "Pahul" Banis are a creation of the SRM in 1930. SRM is made by the Guru Khalsa Panth and is NOT GURU/GURBANI and thus cannot be changed. It can be changed/amended as per the Panth's wishes.

FIRST and FOREMOST we must ALL accept UNCONDITIONALLY that the SGGS is complete smarath GURU and fully capable of making us the KHALSA we are. The rest can come later. Guru Gobind Singh Ji ORDERED us to do that. We are second guessing the GURU when we go outside the SGGS to seek those banis that make or break the Khalsa.The KHALSA was created by GURU NANAK JI....and is a Upashak of the SGGS as the rightful GURU on the Gaddee of GURU NANAK JI.:happy:

As ever some excellent points.

Lets swear an oath to SGGS ji before we start with the Dasam Granth. Most people do not even understand the SGGSji and its deeper meaning (the one line quote brigade), so how can they even think about DG, let alone understand it.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Randip Ji,
Once we "swear an oath of allegiance" to SGGS as our One and ONLY GURU...sarb kala samrath and complete...then I can verify that the Zafarnamah is indeed a truly fantastic and totally inspiring piece of poetry....its in F{censored}e and very difficult to understand..BUT its GOOD.

 

[dalbirk]

Gyani Ji ,
I'm afraid doing so will open a can of worm making it a free for , ultimately resulting
in breaking up of Panth into countless pieces . Also IMHO the baisis of Panthic unity can be only Sikh Rehat Maryada ( SRM ) which is a single document on which Panth has achieved somewhat consensus in last 300 years . Barring a small irritant like Raagmala , everything else is agreed upon & IMHO flawless a masterpiece document which is eternal like the SGGS itself . Discarding the whole DG will put SRM & Nitnem Baanis ( who knows tomorrrow even Khande Baate Di Pahul ) in jeopardy . Why cannot we test DG at the touchstone of Gurbani & decide which part is ( & can be accepted ) as written by Guru Ji .

 

[spnadmin]

I think this is my position. Haven't read the blod yet, but we need to do a few things:

1) Carbon date original manuscripts.
2) Have expert hand writing analysis. It is quite evident Sabinderjit Singh Sagar that various texts including Hukamana's published by Dr Gandha Singh (as put forward by Bhai Randhir Singh) are fakes. Maybe parts of this are too.
3) Get a consensus. Accepting or not accepting Dasam Granth does not make one unaccepted. The message is "Guru Maneo Granth", not Guru Maneo Dasam Granth.
4) The Tenth Master made it clear that Bani was complete and needed no input from him, so why the issue.

randip ji

IMHO we are actually rehashing/retracing old territory, old conversations. SGPC was the body who promised a serious investigation in 2007. They never carried through -- for a reason. The train has left the station, and they now are far away now from where we would like to be. Dasam Granth is not their real concern/issue, it is their football. Dasam Granth is a symptom, not the cause of the problem.

I agree with point 4.

Here is the problem with point 2 - In order to have a handwriting analysis you need a completely genuine and authentic sample of Guru Gobind Singh's handwriting. A sample that is uncontested. Does one exist? Is it enough or long enough to provide all the specific detail needed? Can one be obtained that has not been co-opted by one or another vested interest?

Here is the problem with point 3. Read what is now being written on the patashai web side. The opposition is not accepting the idea of one Granth any longer. Things have progressed to the point where both granths are now being bound as one book. People are being told that if they do not accept the "Dasam Granth" then they are rejecting Dasam Pita, and therefore also rejecting Guru Granth.

One last point -- this is something that can be used by either side. Some of Dasam Pita's works may indeed have been penned by more than one scribe. How then to make things match?

This situation has spun out of control.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

On the Handwriting issue....
Gyani Gyan Singh who wrote his Magnum Opus in 1880 confirms that the son of Granthi Sukha Singh of Patna had a SON whose Handwriting Matched perfectly with that of Guru gobind Singh..and THAT this son wrote many parts of the DG. Solid PROOF of FORGERY if any is required. This throws out the "handwriting" part of "evidence" cited in support of DG.
I beleive Aman Ji has posted the relevant parts of this on a different thread.

 

[spnadmin]

On the Handwriting issue....
Gyani Gyan Singh who wrote his Magnum Opus in 1880 confirms that the son of Granthi Sukha Singh of Patna had a SON whose Handwriting Matched perfectly with that of Guru gobind Singh..and THAT this son wrote many parts of the DG. Solid PROOF of FORGERY if any is required. This throws out the "handwriting" part of "evidence" cited in support of DG.
I beleive Aman Ji has posted the relevant parts of this on a different thread.

I just read that somewhere else too. Did Aman ji post this earlier today? You are right -- it contaminates the handwriting evidence, or at least complicates it enormously.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Yes Aman ji posted it in the Gurcharan Singh Jeownwala debate thread.

 

[spnadmin]

dalbirk ji

I have moved your interesting article about the Kabits to a separate thread in the Dasam Granth section. Thank you for taking the time to post this information. It deserves a thread of its own.

Also, this thread on the Zafaranama has been moved from Sikh, Sikhi, Sikhism to the Dasam Granth forum under Zafaranama.

 

[gur_meet]

In the recent undergoing debates the labels pro - DG and anti –DG are harming the Sikh panth. What is required is a ‘only truth’ label. What both the groups are suffering from can be said to be ‘Completion factor’. This can be explained in this way that when you draw a circular segment there is a tendency of the mind to complete the same and any one else tends to call it a circle. It is the mind that creates the missing part.

In the discussion about Dasam Granth the pro lobby is having a position that since some banis cannot be refuted to be original so others are original as well. The anti-lobby has found arguments against some banis which are fake and are wrongly saying all other banis are fake too. Each bani has to be individually seen for the truth with adherence to the gurmat that SGGSji teaches.

Let us be ‘only truth’ label.

The Jaap sahib ji is one such bani against which also statements are made that these are from ‘Shiv puran’. On hearing this in one of the video and to know the truth I looked up Shiv puran online. There is Hindi translation also available. I kept scanning the text. The idea was to see how these fare with gurmat that SGGSji gives us. There was nothing that can match the Bani of Jaap Saheb which we so lovingly recite.

The whole of Jaap Sahebji is par excellance. This can never be a said to be a copy of a writing which is on a different level and direction.
The Jaap sahib lifts the mind and unites with the almighty. It lifts the unity feeling out of the depth and brings it out. The bani that says

ਸਦਾ ਅੰਗਸੰਗੇ ਅਭੰਗੰ ਬਿਭੂਤੇ ॥੧੯੯॥
Sadaa ang sange abhangang bibhoote||199||
Salutation to thee O Ever present with all, Indestructible and Glorious Lord! 199.

ਸਰਬ ਬਿਸ੍ਵ ਰਚਿਓ ਸੁਯੰਭਵ ਗੜਨ ਭੰਜਨਹਾਰ ॥੮੩॥
Sarab bisva rachio suyanbhav ga?an bhanjanhaar||83||
Thou, the Self-Existent, Creator and Destroyer, hast crated the whole universe.83

ਕਿ ਅਫ਼ਵੁਲ ਗੁਨਾਹ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਸ਼ਾਹਾਨ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਹੈਂ ॥
Ki afvul gunaah hain|| Ki shaahaan shaah hain||
That Thou forgivest sins. That Thou art the Emperor of Emperors

ਕਿ ਕਾਰਨ ਕੁਨਿੰਦ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਕਿ ਰੋਜ਼ੀ ਦਿਹੰਦ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੦੯॥
Ki kaaran kunind hainn|| Ki rozi dihand hain||109||
That Thou art Doer of everything. That Thou art the Giver of the means of sustenance.109

Is easy to see that the Bani is a class apart in its each and every word;the bani displays love with the Karta.

It is definitely bani of the Tenth Master.

We have to look at the bani's individually and be assured about what the truth is rather than take any stubborn position which is completely pro or anti.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Jarnail Singh ji, With due respect

The moment we go into "need" for dsm bani..we are saying..the GURU IS INCOMPLETE..NOT SAMRAATH.NOT "Martail ENOUGH"...etc etc..

Dont beleive me...??

ADSM one of the oldest soldiers in the pro-dg brigade wrote recently on IHRO..."Can the Sukhmani make a Banda Singh bahadur ?????? THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK ON SGGS.

This is not an attack on SGGS. I think you are exaggerating a bit and taking it out of context.
The idea is that Dasam Granth inspires Bir Ras and therefore, makes warriors. SGGS apparently doesn't do that. It inspires spirituality. So Banda Singh Bahadur would not be a warrior, without DG. Sukhmani (calms you down) would not be sufficient in inpiring Bir Ras.

Of course, you already know this so why not reply accordingly?? And there are no attacks being made anywhere, just humans being themselves, speaking their mind (according to their reasoning abilities).

adms fellow had made many many such attacks in the past..but i am quoting just one point form his most recentmails vis a vis the Jeonwalla debate which he toes the POrg line that panthic singhs won a great victory blah blh blah...

This is the TOTALLY FAKE POSITION often taken by the pro dgs...no amrit without Dg, no khalsa without dg, no sikhs without Dg etc etc..which means that its ALL due to DG and the SGGS is just an appendage that came earlier...its only merit" is age !! seniority !!

No Khalsa without DG --> Khalsa = saint warrior
logic: no warrior without DG
Sikh is equivalent of Khalsa --> both saint warriors, same logic applies.

I don't think anyone is giving merit to just DG. There might be few but why target just those few in your reply?

The FACT of the matter is the Nitnem Banis, the "Pahul" Banis are a creation of the SRM in 1930. SRM is made by the Guru Khalsa Panth and is NOT GURU/GURBANI and thus CAN be changed. It can be changed/amended as per the Panth's wishes.

FIRST and FOREMOST we must ALL accept UNCONDITIONALLY that the SGGS is complete smarath GURU and fully capable of making us the KHALSA we are. The rest can come later. Guru Gobind Singh Ji ORDERED us to do that. We are second guessing the GURU when we go outside the SGGS to seek those banis that make or break the Khalsa.The KHALSA was created by GURU NANAK JI....and is a Upashak of the SGGS as the rightful GURU on the Gaddee of GURU NANAK JI.:happy:

Well, continuing from the previous logic, DG inspires warriorhood, SGGS doesn't. So Khalsa requires both DG and SGGS. What do you say to that?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Bhagat Singh ji.

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Well, continuing from the previous logic, DG inspires warriorhood, SGGS doesn't. So Khalsa requires both DG and SGGS. What do you say to that?

Can you elaborate your above statement? It seems quite misleading. We all know that Sikh history is not mentioned in the SGGS which was intentional and a visionary part on our Gurus. SGGS gives us the tools how to be strong from the within first and foremost. Only by strengthening our inner selves we can call ourselves warriors on the outside otherwise we will be playing with toy guns or killing each other with real weapons just out of ego, hatred and to gain powers as many invaders who invaded India did that.

So, let's take a glimpse at our Sikh history. What did the sacrifices of Guru Arjan Dev and Guru Teg Bhadhur show us? Didn't they show us how to be warriors from the within first. So your reptition of the statement mentioned by Adms does not hold any water,"So Banda Singh Bahadur would not be a warrior, without DG. Sukhmani (calms you down) would not be sufficient in inpiring Bir Ras."

Inspiration to be a true Peace Warrior is an internal manifestation not an external imposition.

Guru Hargobind Sahib, our 5th Guru changed the course a bit after the sacrifice of our 5th Guru and made Sikhs use the inner tools of a warrior from the outside too. This is the reason Sikhi is an evolutionary religion which evolved with time and conditions unlike other religions.

Let me put it another way. With a lead pencil one can draw like Bhagat Singh or also kill a person. It all depends how one uses the same energy with the same tool.

So, no positive outer strength can come if the inner is weak and feeble.

Tejwant Singh