Faith And Sikhism

[chazSingh]

..this connection occurs in a very personal way and the consonance [with the formless] is an experience which is described as occurring beyond time and space because it defies the laws of nature. Had the consonance [universe n you becoming one] been captured by science n technology it could have been explained [objectively] but because it hasn't been, its left to individual experience, hence, Chaz crying wolf coz he connects with it on and off.

I've used science, if you like, to show Akal Purakh as "time" being in two places, that is Harry the physical and Harry the spiritual. You only see your physical self at the moment, where as Chaz connects to his spiritual whilst retaining physical [only as a shell during AV]. The beauty of all this is found on page 644 of SGGSJ.

The important observation is, when the time is "right" that consonance will happen, you don't know and I don't know - hence mystical or universal. It is not time bound nor space defined.

are you sure you're not Matthew McConaughey from interstallar.....

on a serious note..have you watched the film? its now my all time favorite..with terminator sitting just behind..

i've heard two sets of reviews for the film....first set is from people that said "what the hell was the ending about...made no sense at all...was too far fetched;"
and reviews from another set that just 'Got it' was 'inspired by it' and understood it at a deeper level in terms of human evolution to the next stages...multi dimensional...

i could watch that film over n over n over...it actually makes me want to do more Simran!!

 

[chazSingh]

would you then say that Chazji is having experiences with Akal Purakh already?, no trap, genuinely curious and enquisitive

stop talking about me behind my back...its rude.. [said with a smile]

 

[Ishna]

then i would say harry ji needed to be very clear as to what kind of faith he doesn't like. Do you think when he says he doesn't need faith that he has confidence instead...that that is also a confidence based on 'not requiring any proof'?

i would say for a sikh...faith is used as a precursor...a katapult to seek actual experience...
"i have faith alton towers has fixed all it;s ride issues and is now safe again....but i won't stop there, i will go and check for myself"

after which hope, belief, faith (in its two forms), trust, confidence is no longer required..because you know, have seen, have felt, have heard the truth for yourself...what a feeling that would be....to just know...

Chaz Ji

Did you feel that? It was the earth moving a little bit... I think we actually agree on something!

 

[chazSingh]

Chaz Ji

Did you feel that? It was the earth moving a little bit... I think we actually agree on something!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz ji writes in post#5,

both are based on not truely knowing the truth...both have a gap to fill...both live on a belief..both have the same foundation

By both he means Faith and Belief which according to Chaz ji, "both are based on not truely knowing the truth".

I happen to agree with Chaz ji's statement in bold above.. Mool Mantar describes us the Objective Truth about Ik Ong Kaar who is also described as Satnaam. This is as simple as it gets. There is no Faith nor Belief involved because Objective Truth does not need either.

Original ji writes in post#7

Our beliefs come in many shapes and sizes, from the trivial, "I believe it will rain today" to the more profound, "I believe in God". Taken together they form a personal guidebook to reality, telling us not just what is factually correct but also what is right n good, and hence how to behave towards one another. One of the long-standing problems with studying beliefs is identifying exactly what we are trying to understand. The general consensus amongst the academia crowd is that belief is a bit like knowledge, but more personal. Knowing something is true is different from believing it to be true; as a result, knowledge is objective and belief is subjective. And, it is the faith of the individual that constitutes belief.

Original ji,

"I believe it will rain today" is based on some kind of evidence like clouds or the monsoon season. It is called a weather report. We have been able to make this belief more predictable with the help of computer models. It is not a blind belief/faith.

In the capital of the state of Amazonia- Manaus in Brasil, it rains everyday at midday for about 30 mins. At Least that was the case in the 70's and 80's. I have no idea if things have changed now due to the climate change. People used to set meetings either before or after the rain because there was an evidence in the nature about it.

"I believe it will rain today" to the more profound, "I believe in God"

These two beliefs are poles apart. The Belief in god requires no evidence, no questioning,hence all religions call their Belief Systems as Blind Faiths.

It is not about being more profound but they are apples and oranges. Simply put

In your post#17

but what Gur Ghar describes as Anhad Shabd, [sound] and Anubhav Prakash [light] being within the reach of humans is the domain and abode of AP. Belief being the operative word.

Let's check what SGGS says about them and how these two words "Faith and Belief" are used in the English translation of our Gurbani. This is also a great experiment to demonstrate how misleading and incorrect the English Translation is.

Page 3.

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ = ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ, ਪਤੀਜੇ ਹੋਏ ਦੀ, ਯਕੀਨ ਕਰ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ। ਗਤਿ = ਹਾਲਤ, ਅਵਸਥਾ।
ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ (ਉੱਚੀ) ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੱਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ) ਮੰਨ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲੱਗ ਗਈ ਹੈ)।


ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
ਮੰਨੈ = ਮੰਨਣ ਕਰਕੇ, ਜੇ ਮੰਨ ਲਈਏ, ਜੇ ਮਨ ਪਤੀਜ ਜਾਏ, ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ।
ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਸੁਰਤ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਆ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਮਨ ਜਾਗ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ)


ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
ਐਸਾ = ਅਜਿਹਾ, ਇੱਡਾ ਉੱਚਾ। ਹੋਇ = ਹੈ। ਮੰਨਿ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਧਾਰ ਕੇ, ਲਗਨ ਲਾ ਕੇ।
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਹੁਤ (ਉੱਚਾ) ਹੈ ਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ ਹੈ, (ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਭੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ)


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||
ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ, ਮੰਨ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ। ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ।
ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਲਗਨ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ ॥੧੨॥

Let's talk about the following first

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful

ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.

ਮੰਨੇ-Manne and ਮੰਨੈ-Mannai are two different words with different meanings however translated as Faithful in English Translation.

ਮੰਨੇ-Manne means one who accepts.

ਮੰਨੈ-Mannai means the one who has accepted.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||

ਮੰਨਿ= To accept
ਮਨਿ=Mind

One believes or has faith from the heart but one accepts from the mind because the former is blind belief/faith whereas acceptance requires some empirical evidence.

On page 267

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ॥
Ḏariṛ kar mānai manėh parṯīṯ.
He believes them to be permanent - this is the belief of his mind.
ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ = ਪੱਕਾ। ਮਨਹਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ। ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ = ਯਕੀਨ।
(ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ) ਅਮਰ ਸਮਝੀ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਵਿਚ (ਇਹੀ) ਯਕੀਨ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ;

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ॥

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ = Certainty, Surety. Neither requires Belief although translated as such.

ਮਾਨੈ = To accept

ਮਨਹਿ = Through one's Mind

As mentioned above, one believes/has faith from the heart but one is certain through the MInd.

We have seen from the above how incorrect and misleading the English Translation is and more importantly, Sikhi is neither a blind faith nor a blind belief as claimed by Chaz ji and Original ji, but a way of life based on certainty in a pragmatic manner.

One can find inumerous examples like that in the SGGS, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Original]

Chaz ji writes in post#5,

By both he means Faith and Belief which according to Chaz ji, "both are based on not truely knowing the truth".

I happen to agree with Chaz ji's statement in bold above.. Mool Mantar describes us the Objective Truth about Ik Ong Kaar who is also described as Satnaam. This is as simple as it gets. There is no Faith nor Belief involved because Objective Truth does not need either.

Original ji writes in post#7

Original ji,

"I believe it will rain today" is based on some kind of evidence like clouds or the monsoon season. It is called a weather report. We have been able to make this belief more predictable with the help of computer models. It is not a blind belief/faith.

In the capital of the state of Amazonia- Manaus in Brasil, it rains everyday at midday for about 30 mins. At Least that was the case in the 70's and 80's. I have no idea if things have changed now due to the climate change. People used to set meetings either before or after the rain because there was an evidence in the nature about it.



These two beliefs are poles apart. The Belief in god requires no evidence, no questioning,hence all religions call their Belief Systems as Blind Faiths.

It is not about being more profound but they are apples and oranges. Simply put

In your post#17

Let's check what SGGS says about them and how these two words "Faith and Belief" are used in the English translation of our Gurbani. This is also a great experiment to demonstrate how misleading and incorrect the English Translation is.

Page 3.

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ = ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ, ਪਤੀਜੇ ਹੋਏ ਦੀ, ਯਕੀਨ ਕਰ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ। ਗਤਿ = ਹਾਲਤ, ਅਵਸਥਾ।
ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ (ਉੱਚੀ) ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੱਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ) ਮੰਨ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲੱਗ ਗਈ ਹੈ)।


ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
ਮੰਨੈ = ਮੰਨਣ ਕਰਕੇ, ਜੇ ਮੰਨ ਲਈਏ, ਜੇ ਮਨ ਪਤੀਜ ਜਾਏ, ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ।
ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਸੁਰਤ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਆ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਮਨ ਜਾਗ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ)


ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
ਐਸਾ = ਅਜਿਹਾ, ਇੱਡਾ ਉੱਚਾ। ਹੋਇ = ਹੈ। ਮੰਨਿ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਧਾਰ ਕੇ, ਲਗਨ ਲਾ ਕੇ।
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਹੁਤ (ਉੱਚਾ) ਹੈ ਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ ਹੈ, (ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਭੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ)


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||
ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ, ਮੰਨ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ। ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ।
ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਲਗਨ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ ॥੧੨॥

Let's talk about the following first

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful

ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.

ਮੰਨੇ-Manne and ਮੰਨੈ-Mannai are two different words with different meanings however translated as Faithful in English Translation.

ਮੰਨੇ-Manne means one who accepts.

ਮੰਨੈ-Mannai means the one who has accepted.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||

ਮੰਨਿ= To accept
ਮਨਿ=Mind

One believes or has faith from the heart but one accepts from the mind because the former is blind belief/faith whereas acceptance requires some empirical evidence.

On page 267

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ॥
Ḏariṛ kar mānai manėh parṯīṯ.
He believes them to be permanent - this is the belief of his mind.
ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ = ਪੱਕਾ। ਮਨਹਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ। ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ = ਯਕੀਨ।
(ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ) ਅਮਰ ਸਮਝੀ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਵਿਚ (ਇਹੀ) ਯਕੀਨ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ;

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ॥

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ = Certainty, Surety. Neither requires Belief although translated as such.

ਮਾਨੈ = To accept

ਮਨਹਿ = Through one's Mind

As mentioned above, one believes/has faith from the heart but one is certain through the MInd.

We have seen from the above how incorrect and misleading the English Translation is and more importantly, Sikhi is neither a blind faith nor a blind belief as claimed by Chaz ji and Original ji, but a way of life based on certainty in a pragmatic manner.

One can find inumerous examples like that in the SGGS, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh

The length you go to is commendable, but sadly, not justifiable.

I hope you will forgive me if I was to suggest that your analytical and evaluation process is completely flawed in light of the scientific method. Deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning are clearly defined, they have their methodology in considering evidence. General statements from particular statements and vice versa are logic based evaluations. The statements referred to above, "rain" are general to show "god" as particular but not in themselves statements of truth per se.

If you read all my posts from the day I subscribed, I always maintained that "faith-belief" cannot be entertained within the jurisdictions of "rationality" and "empirical observation" because their subject-matter [God] does not fall under "knowledge" but under "belief" which has only "subjectivity" testing.

Forgive me if I've errd otherwise.

Respectfully yours

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh

The length you go to is commendable, but sadly, not justifiable.

I hope you will forgive me if I was to suggest that your analytical and evaluation process is completely flawed in light of the scientific method. Deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning are clearly defined, they have their methodology in considering evidence. General statements from particular statements and vice versa are logic based evaluations. The statements referred to above, "rain" are general to show "god" as particular but not in themselves statements of truth per se.

If you read all my posts from the day I subscribed, I always maintained that "faith-belief" cannot be entertained within the jurisdictions of "rationality" and "empirical observation" because their subject-matter [God] does not fall under "knowledge" but under "belief" which has only "subjectivity" testing.

Forgive me if I've errd otherwise.

Respectfully yours

Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

With due respect, I beg to differ with you. It is rather your method that is totally flawed and is based on HIndutva and other blind dogmatic faiths/beliefs. Sikhi is none of them as per our only GPS, SGGS which I have used to explain the difference between your thinking of a blind faith/belief which has nothing to do with Sikhi and mine of a Pragmatic way of life which has everything to do with Sikhi as per SGGS.

You write:

If you read all my posts from the day I subscribed, I always maintained that "faith-belief" cannot be entertained within the jurisdictions of "rationality" and "empirical observation" because their subject-matter [God] does not fall under "knowledge" but under "belief" which has only "subjectivity" testing.

Yes, this is the basic difference in our understanding of Sikhi. You take Sikhi as a blind faith/belief where all kinds of questioning is forbidden whereas I take Sikhi where questioning what surrounds us is the only way to understand, accept and appreciate the Wow and Awe factors of Ik Ong Kaar.

If Sikhi were a blind faith as you accept it as such, then Guru Nanak would not have questioned the meaning of Janieu, would not have thrown water towards his "farm" rather than towards the Sun as Hindus are still doing today. If Sikhi were a blind faith as you believe in then we would fast, go to the pilgrimages, parrot some words repeatedly- some of the Sikhs still do that, sad to say, and many other nonsensical mechanical rituals. The House of Nanak as you lovingly call it freed us from these shackles.

Your examples of "rain" and "god", the latter as a more profound example of rain according to you is like apples and oranges as mentioned in my post. These two are not compatible.

If you do not agree with what Gurbani says in the SGGS, please show your argument/justification based on Gurbani. And also I would urge you to use my post to counter your argument step by step in your response.

Will wait for that.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Original]

Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

With due respect, I beg to differ with you. It is rather your method that is totally flawed and is based on HIndutva and other blind dogmatic faiths/beliefs. Sikhi is none of them as per our only GPS, SGGS which I have used to explain the difference between your thinking of a blind faith/belief which has nothing to do with Sikhi and mine of a Pragmatic way of life which has everything to do with Sikhi as per SGGS.

You write:



Yes, this is the basic difference in our understanding of SIkhi. You take Sikhi as a blind faith/belief where all kinds of questioning is forbidden whereas I take Sikhi where questioning what surounds us is the only way to understand, accept and appreciate the Wow and Awe factors of Ik Ong Kaar.

If Sikhi were a blind faith as you accept it as such, then Guru Nanak would not have questioned the meaning of Janieu, would not have thrown water towards his "farm" rather than towards the Sun as Hindus are still doing today. If Sikhi were a blind faith as you believe in then we would fast, go to the pilgrimages, parrot some words repeatedly- some of the Sikhs still do that, sad to say, and many other nonsensical mechanical rituals. The House of Nanak as you lovingly call it freed us from these shackles.

Your examples of "rain" and "god", the latter as a more profound example of rain according to you is like apples and oranges as mentioned in my post. These two are not compatible.

If you do not agree with what Gurbani says in the SGGS, please show your argument/justification based on Gurbani. And also I would urge you to use my post to counter your argument step by step in your response.

Will wait for that.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Thank you Tejwant Singh Ji

Yes, may be it is my system that is flawed.

Goodnight n Godbless

 

[Harry Haller]

Originalji

maybe all our systems are flawed, but its not about you, or me, its about learning, sharing and growing, for all of us.

 

[Original]

Originalji

maybe all our systems are flawed, but its not about you, or me, its about learning, sharing and growing, for all of us.

Thank you H -

You're an expandable asset who has the good sense to use to defuse and neutralise inconducive conditions !

Accordingly, I'm grateful

Enjoy the day !

 

[Harry Haller]

You're an expandable asset who has the good sense to use to defuse and neutralise inconducive conditions !

is that a polite way of calling me fat?

Originalji

no ability, no personality=minimal engagement
ability, personality=engagement
huge ability, full personality=full engagement

I find you and Tejwantji in the third camp, from your discussions we can learn so much, blame it on the fact that you are both very capable and deep Sikhs, anyway, I am not fat

ok a little bit fat

back to topic gentlemen, please continue,

 

[Harry Haller]

I have given this matter much thought now, and am ready to come to a few conclusions. It is clear from the evidence available, comparing notes and studies, and after some research on the web, and visiting a few other forums, that I am now ready to accept certain things as fact, as real, as word.

I find it quite hard in making this statement, but sometimes the evidence is just too strong to ignore, its staring at me in the face, and I cannot ignore it anymore, I guess sometimes we all have to stand up and proclaim what we feel and what we are, I am ready for this now.

I am fat

 

[Original]

I have given this matter much thought now, and am ready to come to a few conclusions. It is clear from the evidence available, comparing notes and studies, and after some research on the web, and visiting a few other forums, that I am now ready to accept certain things as fact, as real, as word.

I find it quite hard in making this statement, but sometimes the evidence is just too strong to ignore, its staring at me in the face, and I cannot ignore it anymore, I guess sometimes we all have to stand up and proclaim what we feel and what we are, I am ready for this now.

I am fat

...you're a beautiful man, who has the skill to ball n bat succinctly on matters in general, but should in my view, take time out to visit Chaz's camp to strike the right balance [in gest]. Sikhism spiritual starts when thinking stops - and its your God given entitlement, but hey, take the horse to water you can, make it drink or not is down to the horse.

I'm at SPN because I enjoy the banter, otherwise I'm too busy enjoying life and gardening. I see you all as "my" family, who are, by n large fluttering around the "word" of our living Guru, and by definition, seva for me is putting on this forum my "wisdom" of the Sikhi to which I subscribe, the one passed on to me by my forefathers. The beauty of it is H - I really feel it, I am what my Baba Ji, Dada Ji, Pardada Ji were. And, that thought goes all the way back, unbroken, unmodified, DNA rubber stamped "SinghKing" to the first ape that walked the earth - [Chaz, for survival sake had to stick my chest out to attract the best Kaur there was].

The argumentative side on the forum [I refrain] is so fundamental, because knowledge grows out of such differences and scholars debate over what could be true, real, or right in their fields. We all use argumentation to put our views across. An ability to argue convincingly would've been in our ancestors' interest as they evolved more advanced forms of communication. But of course, as you know, since the most persuasive lines of reasoning are not always the most logical, our brains apparent flaw may result from this need to justify our actions and convince others to see our point of view - rightly or wrongly. As a result, one ends up making decisions that look rational, rather than making rational decisions. But hey, that's mapping n shaping our pattern of thought and not society as a whole.

What Sikhism seeks to address in the wider meaning of the word, is a systematic, well balanced lifestyle. And, I think Baba Nanak went and done it with the three pillars of vs, kr, and nam jap.

All ethical theories [Sikh] arise because sizeable population are dissatisfied, either with their personal lives or with the world in which they live. If a person is content with his/her disposition and with the situation in which the world finds itself, she/he will not in general seek to change it. What would be the point of trying to do so ?
Nanak found himself amidst undesirable and inequal socio-political/ religious regimes, result of which is Sikhi. His endeavour was to employ this conception as a guide in directing the application of of human intellectual activities to contemporary social problems. Nanak wasn't looking for a reconstruction of an ideology per se, but yes, revaluation of the whole system. We as a result [Sikh, as a social group] have evolved and will continue to do so and will be more likely to survive and reproduce. Our pattern of thought n behaviour [saintly] will be favoured by the process of natural selection [you with a gori today, what next] and believe me, we'll be in demand, so get rid of that fat you're carrying.

Look where we are today on the "altruistic" agenda for human betterment -

More another time - it's good to talk !

Love n Live

 

[chazSingh]

where we are going...all logic, evaluation, reasoning, research, degrees, logistics will shatter at your feet...we cannot always take Gurbani to the level of the mind...and expect results...

only Love can take us to the level of Gurbani.....only Love can transcend all levels of existance...

where we are going...you can only but gasp in awe and wonder and delight...like a mother meeting her long lost child...no words can describe or give justice to the explosion that occur within the hearts of the two...

 

[Harry Haller]

where we are going...all logic, evaluation, reasoning, research, degrees, logistics will shatter at your feet...we cannot always take Gurbani to the level of the mind...and expect results...

only Love can take us to the level of Gurbani.....only Love can transcend all levels of existance...

where we are going...you can only but gasp in awe and wonder and delight...like a mother meeting her long lost child...no words can describe or give justice to the explosion that occur within the hearts of the two...

Can't you just go there and let us know what its like when your there..



in my opinion, this constant bombardment to stop what we are all doing and follow you is approaching spam

 

[Tejwant Singh]

where we are going...all logic, evaluation, reasoning, research, degrees, logistics will shatter at your feet...we cannot always take Gurbani to the level of the mind...and expect results...

only Love can take us to the level of Gurbani.....only Love can transcend all levels of existance...

where we are going...you can only but gasp in awe and wonder and delight...like a mother meeting her long lost child...no words can describe or give justice to the explosion that occur within the hearts of the two...

Chaz Singh ji,

If I take your claim on its face value what is in bold, then please explain why Mind is mentioned 4992 times in SGGS, our only Guru?

Why did our visionary Gurus repeat the word so many times if it means nothing in Gurbani?

Please enlighten the cyber sadh sangat with your Gurmat wisdom so people like me can follow the Gurmat.path you are on.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ishna]

Chaz ji writes in post#5,

By both he means Faith and Belief which according to Chaz ji, "both are based on not truely knowing the truth".

I happen to agree with Chaz ji's statement in bold above.. Mool Mantar describes us the Objective Truth about Ik Ong Kaar who is also described as Satnaam. This is as simple as it gets. There is no Faith nor Belief involved because Objective Truth does not need either.

Original ji writes in post#7

Original ji,

"I believe it will rain today" is based on some kind of evidence like clouds or the monsoon season. It is called a weather report. We have been able to make this belief more predictable with the help of computer models. It is not a blind belief/faith.

In the capital of the state of Amazonia- Manaus in Brasil, it rains everyday at midday for about 30 mins. At Least that was the case in the 70's and 80's. I have no idea if things have changed now due to the climate change. People used to set meetings either before or after the rain because there was an evidence in the nature about it.



These two beliefs are poles apart. The Belief in god requires no evidence, no questioning,hence all religions call their Belief Systems as Blind Faiths.

It is not about being more profound but they are apples and oranges. Simply put

In your post#17

Let's check what SGGS says about them and how these two words "Faith and Belief" are used in the English translation of our Gurbani. This is also a great experiment to demonstrate how misleading and incorrect the English Translation is.

Page 3.

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ = ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ, ਪਤੀਜੇ ਹੋਏ ਦੀ, ਯਕੀਨ ਕਰ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੀ। ਗਤਿ = ਹਾਲਤ, ਅਵਸਥਾ।
ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ (ਉੱਚੀ) ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੱਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ) ਮੰਨ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲੱਗ ਗਈ ਹੈ)।


ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
ਮੰਨੈ = ਮੰਨਣ ਕਰਕੇ, ਜੇ ਮੰਨ ਲਈਏ, ਜੇ ਮਨ ਪਤੀਜ ਜਾਏ, ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ।
ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਸੁਰਤ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਆ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਮਨ ਜਾਗ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ)


ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Aisā nām niranjan ho▫e.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
ਐਸਾ = ਅਜਿਹਾ, ਇੱਡਾ ਉੱਚਾ। ਹੋਇ = ਹੈ। ਮੰਨਿ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਧਾਰ ਕੇ, ਲਗਨ ਲਾ ਕੇ।
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਹੁਤ (ਉੱਚਾ) ਹੈ ਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ ਹੈ, (ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਭੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ)


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||
ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ = ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ, ਮੰਨ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ। ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ।
ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਲਗਨ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਵੇਖੇ ॥੧੨॥

Let's talk about the following first

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e.
The state of the faithful

ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
Mannai suraṯ hovai man buḏẖ.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.

ਮੰਨੇ-Manne and ਮੰਨੈ-Mannai are two different words with different meanings however translated as Faithful in English Translation.

ਮੰਨੇ-Manne means one who accepts.

ਮੰਨੈ-Mannai means the one who has accepted.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Je ko man jāṇai man ko▫e. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||

ਮੰਨਿ= To accept
ਮਨਿ=Mind

One believes or has faith from the heart but one accepts from the mind because the former is blind belief/faith whereas acceptance requires some empirical evidence.

On page 267

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ॥
Ḏariṛ kar mānai manėh parṯīṯ.
He believes them to be permanent - this is the belief of his mind.
ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ = ਪੱਕਾ। ਮਨਹਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ। ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ = ਯਕੀਨ।
(ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ) ਅਮਰ ਸਮਝੀ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਵਿਚ (ਇਹੀ) ਯਕੀਨ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ;

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ॥

ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ = Certainty, Surety. Neither requires Belief although translated as such.

ਮਾਨੈ = To accept

ਮਨਹਿ = Through one's Mind

As mentioned above, one believes/has faith from the heart but one is certain through the MInd.

We have seen from the above how incorrect and misleading the English Translation is and more importantly, Sikhi is neither a blind faith nor a blind belief as claimed by Chaz ji and Original ji, but a way of life based on certainty in a pragmatic manner.

One can find inumerous examples like that in the SGGS, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Ji

Thank you for such a quality analysis of the language of Gurbani and the difficulty of accurately translating the words into English.

I was reading The Name of My Beloved by Nikky Guninder Kaur Singh, and I found these passages;

"The walls of egotism can be shattered by following a simple formula found in Guru Nanak's Jap which contains three precepts; sunia, mania and manu kita bhau, respectively hearing, holding in mind (remembering) and loving.​

Obviously she is getting this from a tuk in the 21st Paurhi:

ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਉ ॥
Suṇi▫ā mani▫ā man kīṯā bẖā▫o.
Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
Anṯargaṯ ṯirath mal nā▫o.
cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.​

She goes on to elabourate the three of them. This is some of what she writes for mania:

"Mania means remembering the One, keeping the One constantly in our mind. This process is not purely intellectual for it has connotations of trust and faith."

"... Guru Nanak also describes this state of faith in positive terms: through faith, the mind and intellect become more conscious."
​

Is mania [ਮੰਨਿਆ] per above related to manne [ਮੰਨੇ] and mannai [ਮੰਨੈ] that you described in your post?

Thanks

 

[Original]

are you sure you're not Matthew McConaughey from interstallar.....

on a serious note..have you watched the film? its now my all time favorite..with terminator sitting just behind..

i've heard two sets of reviews for the film....first set is from people that said "what the hell was the ending about...made no sense at all...was too far fetched;"
and reviews from another set that just 'Got it' was 'inspired by it' and understood it at a deeper level in terms of human evolution to the next stages...multi dimensional...

i could watch that film over n over n over...it actually makes me want to do more Simran!!

Hey bro

Specially went out n brought the DVD - classic, maybe we could talk, eh ? For me, amongst others, all time fav is predator.

Speak soon !