Learn Punjabi Translations And Transliterations Of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues And Controversies

[spnadmin]

After reading more than a few debates about translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, I now wonder whether it makes sense to learn Gurmukhi first, and then study the ShabadGuru. As someone who converted to Sikhism I have to ask this. Why would I decide to learn Gurmukhi if I had not read the translations first? The translations are what brought me to Sikhism to begin with. Later on I realized that I needed to learn Gurmukhi to get the full benefit. How could anyone even know that Gurmukhi or the Shabad Guru existed if there were no translations? So the debates often make me wonder whether anyone realizes that the translations have value – even if they are contestable.

In the early days of SPN this question came up on the thread http://www.sikhism.us/sikhism-book-reviews/4210-translations-of-the-sggs.html The post, which contains historically accurate information, was by forum member Baljeet Singh, dated June 25, 2007.

He said this:

Sat Sri Akal - I joined this web site only today and saw this discussion. Please note that Guru Granth Sahib was compiled in 17th century. Though the script used is Gurmukhi, the writings were written as earlier as 12th century (Baba Sheikh Farid) and as late as late 17th century (Guru Tegh Bahadur). Further, the writings are from as many as 23 Gurus/Saints/Bhagats each having his own style as prevalent at their times. For example, writings of Guru Tegh Bahadur as simpler to read and understand than those written by 5th Guru and earlier Gurus.

Then there are shabads written in Farsi (Persian) and Sanskrit. Some shabads are in Khari Boli (A dialect mostly used by saints during Bhakti movement in 15th century India).

The point I was trying to make is there is no single language/dialect used through out Guru Granth Sahib. To really get to the deep meaning of shabad, one has to be conversant with the languages/dialects used (which is very difficult, if not impossible, for a common Sikh). So, we take help from Katha Vachaks who translate the Guru's words into common man language using examples.

Again, my point is it is ok to use help from "study guides", translations, etc. to help understand the meanings....It is like taking help from a Katha Vachak....

Regards

Guru Angad Dev ji shaped the Gurmukhi script (Gurmukhi is not a language) so that the many different scripts used in the Punjab at the time of the first and second Gurus could be unified into one script. Guru Angad did this to make it easier for more people to read the pothees containing the words of the Guru. The aim in those days was to share the message of the Shabad Guru far and wide. Moreover, the poster Baljeet Singh ji is correct. Although the Gurmukhi script is uniform, the languages in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are diverse. And we know that Bhai Sant Sahib Singh has written about the difficulties faced by translators on this point.

References include

http://www.ancientscripts.com/gurmukhi.html

Gurmukhi (Punjabi) script and pronunciation

Panthic Weekly: History of the Gurmukhi Script

See also, The Encyclopedia of Sikhism by Harbans Singh and The Sikhs and their way of Life (History, Heritage, Principles, Practices)-Chapter 8 by Gurinder Singh Sacha, London.

To be continued…

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

There are many directions where this discussion can go. Some of the questions that we can look at are these:

1. Can any translation of Guruji be trusted as accurate?

2. Why did SGPC adopt the Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa translation (used on many web sites including the SGPC’s web site) as the “Khalsa Consensus Translation?”

3. One of the English translations, by Gurbachan Singh Talib, is written in English only, without any Gurmukhi text alongside the English in the entire 4-volume work. Does this make Gurbachan Talib’s translation less trustworthy?

4. SGPC forbids unauthorized translations. And Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib has not been translated into very many of the world’s languages. Should translations into more of the world’s languages be authorized?

5. There are only 5 SGPC authorized English translations of Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Translations by Dr. Sant Singh and Bhai Manmohan Singh have been hotly debated on SPN – both seen as unacceptable by some members in some way. What makes their translations debatable?

6. Can any translation of be a good translation of the original scripture?

7. In another thread, forum leader etinder ji commented about a recently completed translation in the Thai language. He said, Thats great a good step forward, but yeah the point raised by thinking is also valid abt the sanctity of the baani n whether the proper justice is done in thai language.
(April 24, 2004, http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-media-watch/588-thai-translation-guru-granth-sahib-completed.html) What principles or rules should we use to judge whether proper justice has been done in the second language?

8. What are some good examples where translations may be skewed or misleading in your opinion.

Please remember to include the shabad with English translation and Ang # with the words or verses you want to discuss.

There is more information at this link about the SGPC and authorized translations
Link to SGGS translations - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

After reading more than a few debates about translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, I now wonder whether it makes sense to learn Gurmukhi first, and then study the ShabadGuru. As someone who converted to Sikhism I have to ask this. Why would I decide to learn Gurmukhi if I had not read the translations first? The translations are what brought me to Sikhism to begin with. Later on I realized that I needed to learn Gurmukhi to get the full benefit. How could anyone even know that Gurmukhi or the Shabad Guru existed if there were no translations? So the debates often make me wonder whether anyone realizes that the translations have value – even if they are contestable.

In the early days of SPN this question came up on the thread http://www.sikhism.us/sikhism-book-reviews/4210-translations-of-the-sggs.html The post, which contains historically accurate information, was by forum member Baljeet Singh, dated June 25, 2007.

He said this:

Sat Sri Akal - I joined this web site only today and saw this discussion. Please note that Guru Granth Sahib was compiled in 17th century. Though the script used is Gurmukhi, the writings were written as earlier as 12th century (Baba Sheikh Farid) and as late as late 17th century (Guru Tegh Bahadur). Further, the writings are from as many as 23 Gurus/Saints/Bhagats each having his own style as prevalent at their times. For example, writings of Guru Tegh Bahadur as simpler to read and understand than those written by 5th Guru and earlier Gurus.

Then there are shabads written in Farsi (Persian) and Sanskrit. Some shabads are in Khari Boli (A dialect mostly used by saints during Bhakti movement in 15th century India).

The point I was trying to make is there is no single language/dialect used through out Guru Granth Sahib. To really get to the deep meaning of shabad, one has to be conversant with the languages/dialects used (which is very difficult, if not impossible, for a common Sikh). So, we take help from Katha Vachaks who translate the Guru's words into common man language using examples.

Again, my point is it is ok to use help from "study guides", translations, etc. to help understand the meanings....It is like taking help from a Katha Vachak....

Regards

Guru Angad Dev ji shaped the Gurmukhi script (Gurmukhi is not a language) so that the many different scripts used in the Punjab at the time of the first and second Gurus could be unified into one script. Guru Angad did this to make it easier for more people to read the pothees containing the words of the Guru. The aim in those days was to share the message of the Shabad Guru far and wide. Moreover, the poster Baljeet Singh ji is correct. Although the Gurmukhi script is uniform, the languages in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are diverse. And we know that Bhai Sant Sahib Singh has written about the difficulties faced by translators on this point.

References include

http://www.ancientscripts.com/gurmukhi.html

Gurmukhi (Punjabi) script and pronunciation

Panthic Weekly: History of the Gurmukhi Script

See also, The Encyclopedia of Sikhism by Harbans Singh and The Sikhs and their way of Life (History, Heritage, Principles, Practices)-Chapter 8 by Gurinder Singh Sacha, London.

To be continued…

Well ad0002 Ji, Ocourse knowing Gurmukhi is a big plus point, then one can compare and alalyse what is being said in translations. On the other hand if you know hindi or other related indian languages, that you know the dilects but just can’t read gurmukhi, then I would be worth to learn gurmukhi. If you are american or any other coutry born, then still you won’t be able to do comparison, because Gurbani is full of other dileacts. The only reason we are debating translations is for Sikhs like you. We do not want to confuse you but to get the essence of gurbani acrross in fullest and with out any bais. Having translationsis very imjportant, but when comparing translations Guru’s shabad in gurmukhi is our sole judge not the translations.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

ax0547 ji

How does a Sikh like me know how to go about "comparing translations? Guru’s shabad in gurmukhi is our sole judge not the translations. How does one compare without having translations to compare to the Gurmukhi?

The other question I have is this. How does a person who knows Gurmukhi figure out the various dialects in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. You have said "If you are american or any other coutry born, then still you won’t be able to do comparison, because Gurbani is full of other dileacts." How did Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa figure that out?

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

1.Can any translation of Guruji be trusted as accurate?
Well if you are defining translations as katha vachaks, then there are mostly going to be some problems with interpretation from vachak to vachak. Our job is to get the truth in Gurbani across and therefore contest and correct to get the truth out to the fullest. This the sole reason I am debationg my point of view here under debate, so that where I am worng we can correct and get the true essence out.
2.Why did SGPC adopt the Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa translation (used on many web sites including the SGPC’s web site) as the “Khalsa Consensus Translation?”
I don’t know about that why they did so. Many possibilities –
·It is one of the few translations in english and you know how educated the SPGC people are.
·Even though biased, this bais is held by most sikhs when tranlsating because they are not used the sceintific process here in western countries.
·There has been no critics analysis done on these translations because they are very newly done and there are not many Sikhs who are fullesnt in both punjabi and english.
·If there were no translations accepted at all, then we won’t be analysing because not accepted by panth.
3.One of the English translations, by Gurbachan Singh Talib, is written in English only, without any Gurmukhi text alongside the English in the entire 4-volume work. Does this make Gurbachan Talib’s translation less trustworthy?
a.I don’t think so Gurmukhi is widely available so just compare like that. I have never done his translations
4.4. SGPC forbids unauthorized translations. And Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib has not been translated into very many of the world’s languages. Should translations into more of the world’s languages be authorized?
a.There should be, but what if tere are no resources.
5. There are only 5 SGPC authorized English translations of Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Translations by Dr. Sant Singh and Bhai Manmohan Singh have been hotly debated on SPN – both seen as unacceptable by some members in some way. What makes their translations debatable
a.They should be commended for the step, but there are big flaws.
i.Putiing your own bias into translations is never acceptable
ii.I don’t know about mohan singh, but sant singh’s are very very biased toward reincarnation and past life’s.
iii.Also on other topics, but I think reincarnation is one big issue.
iv.Sint singh is assuming thorugh out that incarnation is acceptible into sikhi. Example where is says like - everyone lives and dies – he translates as reincarnation.
v.There us a big affect of hindu theories on tranlaters commonly accpted, but know affirmed by Gurbani or even logical thinking does not allow for such conclusions.
6.6. Can any translation of be a good translation of the original scripture?
a.No, not until critics analysis and debate.
7.7. In another thread, forum leader etinder ji commented about a recently completed translation in the Thai language. He said, Thats great a good step forward, but yeah the point raised by thinking is also valid abt the sanctity of the baani n whether the proper justice is done in thai language.
(April 24, 2004, http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-media-wat...completed.html (Thai translation of Guru Granth Sahib completed)) What principles or rules should we use to judge whether proper justice has been done in the second language?
Will answer it later
8.What are some good examples where translations may be skewed or misleading in your opinion.
We are going through on reincarnation thread
Wiki doesn’t say sant singh’s being authorised

Reincarnation – not only in translations in english , even in punjabi translators have this bias. Basically, I am contesting a theory that is flawed, but being accepted because sangat also accepts it. I doubt big time that Guru sahib meant any thing about reicarnations in terms said on web. Until now I have read SGGS regadarding reincarnation, but the translations are mostly baised with one’s own point of view, but people don’t think how the theory is flawed. If me being a 18 year old reading translations figured it out such, I think Guru sahib as very very smart than me. Now after researching and reading SGGS for almost a year or more, I figured mostly the words mean different too. Example – karma not only means deeds but also blessings and other definitions. Still I want to go through with crictial analysis by others of my point of view. One advantage I have is I am very good in punjabi, hindi etc and english because I did my high school education here. So I am very well versed in scietific analysis. I just dont care about grammer right now because of less time, more important is getting the truth across.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

ax9547 ji

You wrote some interesting responses below. My reactions are in blue under individual statements, to make the conversation easier to follow.

1.Can any translation of Guruji be trusted as accurate?
Well if you are defining translations as katha vachaks, then there are mostly going to be some problems with interpretation from vachak to vachak. Our job is to get the truth in Gurbani across and therefore contest and correct to get the truth out to the fullest. This the sole reason I am debationg my point of view here under debate, so that where I am worng we can correct and get the true essence out.

That is really why I started this thread. So there would be a place for discussion of differing points of view on the translations themselves. When these observations are grouped together in one place, then it gives people who are curious more information to think about.
2.Why did SGPC adopt the Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa translation (used on many web sites including the SGPC’s web site) as the “Khalsa Consensus Translation?”
I don’t know about that why they did so. Many possibilities –
·It is one of the few translations in english and you know how educated the SPGC people are.

It is also a puzzle to me -- especially after I compared indivdual lines across 3 or 4 translations and saw how different they were. Then as I learned more Gurmukhi it became pretty obvious that Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa in many places takes extreme liberties in translation -- to the point where the simple meaning is lost completely. My opinion only.

·Even though biased, this bais is held by most sikhs when tranlsating because they are not used the sceintific process here in western countries.
·There has been no critics analysis done on these translations because they are very newly done and there are not many Sikhs who are fullesnt in both punjabi and english.

There have not been these analyses and there need to be. Important work to be done. But the first translation by Gopal Singh came out in 1952 I believe. So we are only looking at 50 years of translation. It may take time for the scholars to catch up.

·If there were no translations accepted at all, then we won’t be analysing because not accepted by panth.

I am not sure what you mean. Some of the panth do not read Gurmukhi and have been Sikhs from birth -- including Sikhs in India, not just Sikhs in the US or Canada.

3.One of the English translations, by Gurbachan Singh Talib, is written in English only, without any Gurmukhi text alongside the English in the entire 4-volume work. Does this make Gurbachan Talib’s translation less trustworthy?
a.I don’t think so Gurmukhi is widely available so just compare like that. I have never done his translations

The only way to get his translations is to buy them in hard copy. No online versions are available. pk 70 ji and I looked for a couple of weeks. Now I have the translations. They are extremely scholarly. Every shabad is followed by extensive explanations in footnotes, with many academic and religious sources quoted to explain why he translated the way he did. That is why it took 4 volumes to cover the entire Guru Granth.
4.4. SGPC forbids unauthorized translations. And Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib has not been translated into very many of the world’s languages. Should translations into more of the world’s languages be authorized?
a.There should be, but what if tere are no resources.

This is a good point. Also, there are Sikhs around the world, but in some places there are none at all. It could be that Hindi and English translations, and also a recent Spanish translation, makes the Shabad available for the vast majority. There may not be a need to translate. I don't know and wonder what other people are thinking about this.

5. There are only 5 SGPC authorized English translations of Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Translations by Dr. Sant Singh and Bhai Manmohan Singh have been hotly debated on SPN – both seen as unacceptable by some members in some way. What makes their translations debatable
a.They should be commended for the step, but there are big flaws.
i.Putiing your own bias into translations is never acceptable
ii.I don’t know about mohan singh, but sant singh’s are very very biased toward reincarnation and past life’s.
iii.Also on other topics, but I think reincarnation is one big issue.
iv.Sint singh is assuming thorugh out that incarnation is acceptible into sikhi. Example where is says like - everyone lives and dies – he translates as reincarnation.
v.There us a big affect of hindu theories on tranlaters commonly accpted, but know affirmed by Gurbani or even logical thinking does not allow for such conclusions.

I agree with all your points above -- a heavy slant toward a Vaishaivist understanding of the Guru. But I have not compared the Sant Singh translation in a systematic and methodical way for enough shabads to Manmohan Singh's translations. Only a few. So I cannot be specific. I am hoping that through this thread more examples will be brought out for discussion. But it is not just a slant toward reincarnation -- some of his translations are so far away from the simple language of the Guru that I wonder how he came up with them.

A criticism of Manmohan Singh's translations is that his use of English is very old-fashioned -- the English words themselves are no longer used or understood as he applies them. A good translation has to be true to the original text, but also give an authentic explanation in the second language.

6.6. Can any translation of be a good translation of the original scripture?
a.No, not until critics analysis and debate.

You may be right --- but it leaves all those who are at the beginning of their journey to learn the Shabad in the dark. Because what you are saying is -- they cannot trust the translations. So who then can they trust? If they go to gurdwara, they hear the explanation in Punjabi. What good is that? And then they have to trust that the granthi knows what he is talking about. Or that someone on a forum is correct 100 percent of the time. And that doesn't work either because people who discuss the translations on the forum don't agree with each other.

7.7. In another thread, forum leader etinder ji commented about a recently completed translation in the Thai language. He said, Thats great a good step forward, but yeah the point raised by thinking is also valid abt the sanctity of the baani n whether the proper justice is done in thai language.
(April 24, 2004, http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-media-wat...completed.html (Thai translation of Guru Granth Sahib completed)) What principles or rules should we use to judge whether proper justice has been done in the second language?
Will answer it later OK
8.What are some good examples where translations may be skewed or misleading in your opinion.
We are going through on reincarnation thread
Wiki doesn’t say sant singh’s being authorised

Reincarnation – not only in translations in english , even in punjabi translators have this bias. Basically, I am contesting a theory that is flawed, but being accepted because sangat also accepts it. I doubt big time that Guru sahib meant any thing about reicarnations in terms said on web. Until now I have read SGGS regadarding reincarnation, but the translations are mostly baised with one’s own point of view, but people don’t think how the theory is flawed. If me being a 18 year old reading translations figured it out such, I think Guru sahib as very very smart than me. Now after researching and reading SGGS for almost a year or more, I figured mostly the words mean different too. Example – karma not only means deeds but also blessings and other definitions. Still I want to go through with crictial analysis by others of my point of view. One advantage I have is I am very good in punjabi, hindi etc and english because I did my high school education here. So I am very well versed in scietific analysis. I just dont care about grammer right now because of less time, more important is getting the truth across.

About the Khalsa Consensus translation. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Khalsa Consensus Translation presented here is regarded by some Sikh scholars as being among the finest and most accurate english translation currently available. The author, Singh Sahib Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa has faithfully attempted to follow the original Gurmukhi text as closely as possible and maintain accuracy in page breaks and the numbering notations found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. An analysis of the available english translation as well as a direct comparison are also presented here in this category. http://www.sikhs.org/english/frame.html
[/FONT]

More important...

I think you should bring some of your eamples of bad translation from the reincarnation thread to this thread and use them here too. To make a point. To teach people how a word or phrase or verse or entire shabad can be changed in English to mean something it may not mean. Then we would be talking in more concrete terms and not in an abstract way. The opinions expressed will also be pinned down to something specfic -- good illustrations. I hope you take some time to do that -- whenever you have time of course.

 

[dalbirk]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

I find ' GURU GRANTH DARPAN ' by Prof. SAHIB SINGH JI in Gurmukhi as the most reliable & free of any faults as far as principals r concerned . I think if anybody works directly on any translation based on 'GURU GRANTH DARPAN' in any language of the world like Thai, English , Spanish , Hindi or any other languages of India or world , the results would be VERY-VERY IMPRESSIVE . Any members who have gone through ' Guru Granth Darpan ' kindly share their views .


http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0001.html

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Speaking from the heart, Aad Ji,

When I read SGGS, I don't really understand the meaning of what I'm reading because of the different language and styles of composed poetry, so I am heavily dependant on the English translations.

But I feel a lot of satisfaction by reading Gurbani in whatever little I understand in Punjabi because Punjabi is my mother tongue, so it's easier to accept the wisdom with the mind easily sub-dued.

This surrender happens in baby steps while reading in the poetic and rhyming form of gurbani. The poetry has a soothing effect on the disturbed mind.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

At first it is hard to read Gurbani in punjabi, because you don't to were to pause and so on ,but as you do it daily you get hold of it then it's good. At first I was in your position too.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Lets do it this way - get hold of all the translations available by different people and we will go through them - is tha a good idea!

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

There are translations from two people available on Srigranth.org!

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

BY SANT SINGH KHALSA
JAPJI SAHIB
1ST PAURI

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
Chant And Meditate:

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

BY BHAI MOHAN SINGH
JAPJI SAHIB
1ST PAURI

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
There is but one God. True is His Name, creative His personality and immortal His form. He is without fear sans enmity, unborn and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace He is obtained.

॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
Embrace His meditation.

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
True in the prime, True in the beginning of ages,

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
True He is even now and True He verily, shall be, O Nanak!

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
By pondering on God, man cannot have a conception of Him, even though he may ponder over lacs of times.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
Even though one be silent and remains absorbed in Lord's constant love he obtains not mind's silence.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
The hunger of the hungry departs not, even though they may pile up loads of the world's valuables.

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Man may possess thousands and lacs of wits, but not even one (goes with him) avails him in the Lord's court.

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
How can we be true and how can the screen of untruth be rent?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
O Nanak! By obeying, the pre-ordained order of the Lord's will.
​

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

I find ' GURU GRANTH DARPAN ' by Prof. SAHIB SINGH JI in Gurmukhi as the most reliable & free of any faults as far as principals r concerned . I think if anybody works directly on any translation based on 'GURU GRANTH DARPAN' in any language of the world like Thai, English , Spanish , Hindi or any other languages of India or world , the results would be VERY-VERY IMPRESSIVE . Any members who have gone through ' Guru Granth Darpan ' kindly share their views .

Dalbirk ji

At first I wasn't sure if this thread was going to interest anyone. But your comments perk up my interest even more. You have written elsewhere that the Professor Sahib Singh translations are the best in your opinion. Other people have also stated this. Are they not in modern Punjabi, and maybe also in Hindi? There is one sight on the Internet where Japji Sahib has been translated by Professor Sahib Singh into English -- So we can bring that in for discussion.

What is it about the Professor Sant Singh translation that you find so remarkable. May be you could use your own skills in English to help us understand that. Maybe pasting a shabad and discussing it in your own words in English. That would be very interesting.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

BY SANT SINGH KHALSA
JAPJI SAHIB
1ST PAURI

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

BY BHAI MOHAN SINGH
JAPJI SAHIB
1ST PAURI
ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Man may possess thousands and lacs of wits, but not even one (goes with him) avails him in the Lord's court.

_______________

SANT SINGH IS RIGHT HERE ND MOHAN SINGH IS WRONG - THERE IS NO WORD REGARDING GOD'S COURT - ALL THAT IS SAID IS THAT ALL TRICKS ARE GOING TO BE LEFT BEHIND!

- THE POINT HERE IS NOT THAT IS THERE A COURT OR NOT! IF THERE IS, IT WILL COME UP IN GURBANI LATER, THIS IS ONE'S OWN BIAS INTRODUCED!

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Speaking from the heart, Aad Ji,

When I read SGGS, I don't really understand the meaning of what I'm reading because of the different language and styles of composed poetry, so I am heavily dependant on the English translations.

But I feel a lot of satisfaction by reading Gurbani in whatever little I understand in Punjabi because Punjabi is my mother tongue, so it's easier to accept the wisdom with the mind easily sub-dued.

This surrender happens in baby steps while reading in the poetic and rhyming form of gurbani. The poetry has a soothing effect on the disturbed mind.

NamJap ji

My understanding is that your own words are shared by a lot of other forum members. Like you I am taking those baby steps. Hope you contributed steadily here telling us about specific discoveries you are making.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Lets do it this way - get hold of all the translations available by different people and we will go through them - is tha a good idea!

That is a good idea. I think I will try to find the Sahib Singh translation and post it for comparison.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

BY SANT SINGH KHALSA
JAPJI SAHIB
2ND PAURI


ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||


BY BHAI MOHAN SINGH
JAPJI SAHIB
2ND PAURI
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥
By the Lord's order bodies are produced. His order cannot be narrated.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
With His fiat the souls come into being and with His fiat greatness is obtained.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
By His command the mortals are make high and low and by His written command they obtain woe and weal.

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
Some obtain gifts through His order and some through His order are ever made to wander in transmigration.

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
All are subject to His fiat and none is exempt from His fiat.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
O Nanak! if man were to understand Lord's fiat, then no one would take pride (speak in ego).

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

BY SANT SINGH KHALSA
JAPJI SAHIB
2ND PAURI

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

BY BHAI MOHAN SINGH
JAPJI SAHIB
2ND PAURI

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
With His fiat the souls come into being and with His fiat greatness is obtained.

__________________

HERE THE WORD "JEE/JEA" ALSO MEANS [SIZE=-1]SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]P. n. Creature, living being, life, soul, mind, heart [/SIZE]

WHY IT IS SPECIFICALLY USED AS SOUL? - WE HAVE TO REMEMBER AND LOOK ON OTHER LINES WITH SAME WORD! SOME WHERE IN OTHER LINE "JEO" IS USED INSTEAD OF "JEA", SO WE WILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THE DIFFERENCE!

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

ax0547 JI

I am going to post 5 translations in comparison below. It contains a hard to find version by Dr. Gopal Singh. The differences are stark and amazing.

Article
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Direct Comparison of Translations[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
by Singh Sahib Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa[/FONT] from http://www.sikhs.org/english/frame.html

It might be illuminating to compare passages in the various translations.
Here is the Mul Mantra and the first Pauree of Jap Ji in the various translations: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Original Gurmukhi:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Bhai Gopal Singh Translation:[/FONT]

By the Grace of the One Supreme Being, The Eternal,
The All-pervading Purusha, The Creator, Without Fear, Without Hate,
the Being Beyond Time, Non-incarnated, Self-existent, The Enlightener. MEDITATIONS
True in the Beginning, True in the Primeval age
True He is and True He shall be. [1]
Thinking avails not, how so hard one thinks;
Nor silence avails, howsoever one shrinks
Into oneself. Nor hunger goes
With the (Pleasure) loads of the worlds.
Of a myriad cleverness, not one works.
How then to be True? How rend the Veil of sham, untruth?
His Will (forsooth)
Inborn in us, ingrained,
Thou follow.
(Thus is Truth attained). [1]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Manmohan Singh Translation:[/FONT]

There is but one God. True is His Name, creative His personality
and immortal His form. He is without fear, sans enmity, unborn
and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace (He is obtained). Embrace His meditation.
True in the prime, True in the beginning of ages,
True He is even now and True He, verily, shall be, O Nanak!
By pondering, man cannot have a conception of God,
even though he may ponder over lacs of time.
Even though one be silent and remains absorbed
constantly he obtains not mind's silence.
The hunger of the hungry departs not, even
though he may pile up loads of the worlds (valuables).
Man may possess thousands and lacs of wits,
but not even one goes with (him) or (avails him in the Lord's court).
How can we be true and how can the screen of untruth be rent?
By obeying, O Nanak! the pre-ordained order of the Lord of will.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gurbachan Singh Talib Translation:[/FONT]

He is the Sole Supreme Being; of eternal manifestation;
Creator, immanent Reality; Without Fear;
Without Rancour; Timeless Form; Unincarnated;
Self-Existent; Realized by grace of the holy Preceptor.
Japu (Prayer-Chant) In primal Time, in all Time, was the Creator;
Nothing is real but the Eternal.
Nothing shall last but the Eternal. (1)
Ritual purification, though million-fold, may not purify the mind;
Nor may absorption in trance still it, however long and continuous.
Possessing worlds multiple quenches not the rage of avarice and desire.
A thousand million feats of intellect bring not emancipation.
How then to become true to the Creator?
how demolish the wall of illusion?
Through obedience to His Ordinance and Will.
Saith Nanak :This blessing too is pre-ordained. (1)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pritam Singh Chahil Translation:[/FONT]

The Creator of all is One, the only One. Truth is his name.
He is the doer of everything. He is without fear and without enmity.
His form is immortal. He is unborn and self-illumined.
He is realized by Guru's grace. MEDITATE
He was True in the beginning. He was True through all ages.
He is True even now. Nanak says, He shall ever be True.
1. By pondering, one cannot have the conception of God even though
one may think million times. Even though one be silent and remain
constantly absorbed, He cannot be known by this siIence.
The hunger of the hungry does not appease even though one may collect
loads of worldly valuables. One may have millions of skills but none goes
with him in the hereafter. How can one become truthful and dispel the veil
of illusion? Nanak says by obeying the pre-ordained order of the Lord and
surrendering to His Will. 1.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Khalsa Consensus Translation:[/FONT]

One Universal Creator God.
The Name is Truth.
Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred.
Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent,
By Guru's Grace, Chant And Meditate:
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. II 1 II
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds
of thousands of times. By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained,
even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within. The hunger of the hungry
is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods. Hundreds of
thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in
the end. So how can one become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be
torn away? O Nanak, He has written that you shall obey the Hukam of His
Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. II 1 II


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Critique of the Above Translations:

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In review of Bhai Gopal Singh's translation, what sticks out most are the forced rhymes, achieved by breaking up sutras and sentence structure, and the frequently inserted parenthetical phrases. These create unavoidable distractions for the reader. Moreover, his use of word such as 'howso' and 'forsooth', words not in common usage, further detract from the impact of the rendering. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Manmohan Singh's translation is perhaps even more obtuse to the modern reader. He uses words such as 'lacs' (meaning tens of thousands), which will be understandable to the Indian reader, but not to those who are not conversant with either Panjaabi or Gurmukhi. He also includes words such as 'sans', a French term meaning 'without'. This term, unfortunately, will be meaningless to the less erudite reader. As mentioned above, other antiquated expressions abound, such as apostates, myrmidons, mumpers, mammon, etc. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] He often uses phrases which are not grammatically correct, such as, 'Even though one be silent and remains absorbed constantly he obtains not mind's silence.' And, similarly to Bhai Gopal Singh, he inserts parenthetical phrases of words not actually in the original Gurmukhi, which are intended to more fully elucidate the meaning of the passage. Again, the use of parentheses is usually distracting. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Gurbachan Singh Talib takes much wider license with the Guru's Word, so that the original is often not even locatable in the translation. While all others have translated 'soch' in the first Pauree of Jap Ji as 'thought' or 'conceptualization', he alone translates it as 'ritual purification'. And when translating 'Hai bhee sach, Naanak hosee bhee sach', instead of the accepted translation of 'sach' as'Truth', he translates these lines as, 'Nothing is real but the Eternal. Nothing shall last but the Eternal.' Instead of parentheses to denote words and phrases added to the translation which are not in the original, he uses italics, which is still distracting. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] His grammatical phrasing also frequently fails to conform to standard usage: 'How then to become true to the Creator? how demolish the wall of illusion?' [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] As with the previous translations, these grammatical errors stick out to the well-versed reader of English, and detract from their impact. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Pritam Singh Chahil's translation more closely approximates readable English in its phraseology and idioms, and this translation is now the premiere translation, the standard by which others will be compared. But his grammar, once again, falls short of the mark: For example,'. . . even though one may think million times.', and 'The hunger of the hungry does not appease even though one may collect loads of worldly valuables.' [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The Khalsa Consensus Translation has been written in contemporary English, maintaining consistent grammar. The idioms are those in common usage, and word order reflects the original whenever possible. Repeated words in the original are faithfully repeated in the translation. For example: 'Simaro simar simar sukh paavao' -'Meditate, meditate, meditate in remembrance, and find peace.' Page breaks are exactly correlated with the original single-volume Bir. [/FONT]

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

BY SANT SINGH KHALSA
JAPJI SAHIB
2ND PAURI

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

BY BHAI MOHAN SINGH
JAPJI SAHIB
2ND PAURI

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
Some obtain gifts through His order and some through His order are ever made to wander in transmigration.
_____________________________________________________________

WHERE DID TRANSMIGRATION COME UP FROM ? - NO CLUE - SANT SINGH IS RIGHT HERE! MOHAN SINGH IS SUPPOSING THAT TRANSMIGRATION IS ACCETPED FOR SOME REASON - AND IT MIGHT BE BUT NOT YET!