Sects 3HO "Gora Sikhs" & Miri Piri Academy - What Do You Think?

[Rory]

Also thank you Kanwaljit-ji for the link, I have it bookmarked.

 

[linzer]

By the way don't get me wrong , I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. We invite people who a 3ho whenever we have Gurdwara here. If a few catch on and see the difference great, if not we tried.

 

[Seeker9]

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be sects, cults, deras etc

Still, each to their own, so if they are content and don't bother me then that is fine as well I guess....it's their money, their life

 

[findingmyway]

It's nice to know you found your way out of 3HO and did some research for yourself It makes it kind of awkward, I think, for white people like me with an interest in Sikhi - non-3HO white Sikhs are definitely a minority.

Sikhs who follow only the SGGS are in the minority!! I am a Panjabi heritage Sikh yet I can honestly say I am struggling to find a sangat who is not bound by Panjabi culture rather than philosophy from the Gurus, and not infiltrated by some sect or another. Let us not look at gora or brown but unite as open minded thinkers and searchers of the truth welcomekaurmundahug

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Sikhs who follow only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are in the minority!!

Rightly said findingmyway ji! Sangat is hard to find. I think we have to get our act together with others, and walk on Guru's Path. Alone we are lost in the Maya of this world. Only with other Sikhs, we can realize what is to be done!

 

[Rory]

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

Does anyone know any way I can get some form of the Sri Granth Guru Sahib-ji in physical format..? I like having it in my hands to study rather than on a computer, but I know that ideally it would have to be stored in it's own room in my house.. and I can't manage that at the moment.
Any ideas?

 

[Ishna]

You can buy it in several volumes - like that you can keep it on a high bookshelf or cupboard respectfully, it doesn't need it's own room.

It only needs its own room for a single volume in Gurmukhi script.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Thanks for the input linzerji.

I'm relatively new to Sikhi but 3HO practices really annoy me.. if I saw a picture of Yogi Bhajan in a Gurdwara, I would forget the fact that I have only been studying a couple of months and I would rip that picture down and fling it out the door. This kind of complete undermining of religion by people who are essentially outsiders, it really really annoys me.

Rory ji..

I wouldnt do THAT if I were YOU...
No ONE is an "OUTSIDER" unless..maybe..just maybe..or perhaps.... he/she is an ALIEN from a visiting UFO.Each and every person BORN of WOMAN on this EARTH is an INSIDER (SIKH) and has every right....GURU TEG BAHADUR JI GAVE HIS LIFE DEFENDING THAT RIGHT.

 

[Rory]

I understand that very well Gyaniji but isn't putting a picture of Bhajan above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib-ji tantamount to sacreliege..?
I know there is no outsider and I think a 3HO is welcome to put their pictures of Yogi Bhajan practically anywhere else they want; but isn't above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib pretty insulting? If it were a Mosque or Church, and I went in trying to hang up a picture of some Muslim or Christian missionary above the qibla or above the altar/crucifix/sacristy etc., I don't think anyone would be very happy!

How much permission should a person be given to be made feel "not an outsider" - if we are going to let someone disobey Sri Guru Granth Sahib and hang an image of a man above it, and force us all to look up at it above the holy scripture, how much further will we let them go? What if they decide one of Yogi Bhajan's pivotal yoga books deserves to be placed beside or above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Wouldn't it be hard to say no, considering they had already been allowed place a picture of their idol there?

I hope you see the point I'm making. I think the Gurudwara should be preserved as much as possible, because this kind of gradual change (such as the pictures of yogis being hanged up) is what slowly alters religions beyond recognition and it is what makes me disappointed when I look at the world religions - they have all been poisoned by man-made influence. It's a subtle form of sabotage.

Give them an inch and they will take a mile.

 

[Rory]

Also thank you Ishnaji - do you know where can I buy it in volumes like you mentioned..?
Preferably in English, although I know I'm probably asking a bit much now.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Yes Rory Ji..I understand your sentiments perfectly..infact i hold the SGGS above verything else..thats why I vehemently OPPOSE the DG being parkashed at PAR with SGGS..at TWO Takhats no less...so I knwo exactly what you mean...still the key is EDUCATION..as the Sikh kaum is now being EDUCATED as to the REAL TRUTH of the DG..so will all know about the 3HO wrong practises...and wrongs going on in 18990 DERAS in Punjab...etc etc..EDUCATION and AWARENESS is the KEY.

 

[Astroboy]

There is a saying, "Any reason to seek God, could be a valid one."
One can be 3HO today, 4HO tomorrow but in the end, the question of death will make one rise above all illusions that are cunningly packaged along with Truth statements.

In Punjabi, the proverb: Dhodh Ka Dhodh te Pani ka Pani.
Meaning, the false will separate away from the truth.
SGGS only takes you to the journey beyond. Where only truth can accompany one self.
Pictures,murals, decorations and the physical body are all false.

 

[linzer]

Thanks for the input linzerji.

I'm relatively new to Sikhi but 3HO practices really annoy me.. if I saw a picture of Yogi Bhajan in a Gurdwara, I would forget the fact that I have only been studying a couple of months and I would rip that picture down and fling it out the door. This kind of complete undermining of religion by people who are essentially outsiders, it really really annoys me.

I know you wouldn't actually do it but was a truly delightful mental picture. Could we consider it as a form of education?loljust kidding.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

I know there is no outsider and I think a 3HO is welcome to put their pictures of Yogi Bhajan practically anywhere else they want; but isn't above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib pretty insulting?

First of all, it is hard to make them understand how it is insulting. When Sikhs made Gurudwara, it was a simple place, to come sit and talk of Gurbani, do Vichar in Sangat, listen to Dhur Ki Baani. With time, we are adding excess baggages to the Gurudwaras. Like a lamp, photos, old relics to the main hall. That is not how darbar or diwan hall is supposed to be. There is just Guru needed there. We need to move other things out. But then it is not explicitly written in Rehat Maryada. Not explicitly written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. So people will decorate the Gurudwara as they feel so. And remember, Yogi Bhajan was the one who started 3HO. Most of the people met YB before they met Guru Nanak. Even if they proclaim themselves to be Sikhs, most of the new 3HO people probably think YB is their savior.

If it were a Mosque or Church, and I went in trying to hang up a picture of some Muslim or Christian missionary above the qibla or above the altar/crucifix/sacristy etc., I don't think anyone would be very happy!

That happens. And most YBers will say that a lot more happens in Indian Gurudwaras, with images of all those Sants and Babas in the main room. Yes they are true, but it doesn't mean they are analyzing their own situation. They are just saying that someone else is doing the same and they are happy to know that.

Question is, is Gurudwara just another room in a building or it's a place which is different? Where you go in discarding your worldly beliefs and identities and dwell in the Shabad of Guru? And by keeping things other than Guru outside, we try to make sure all Gurudwaras are same once you are inside, no matter where they are located. But now once inside, you would know if you are in a 3HO Gurudwara, or some dera Gurudwara.

How much permission should a person be given to be made feel "not an outsider" - if we are going to let someone disobey Sri Guru Granth Sahib and hang an image of a man above it, and force us all to look up at it above the holy scripture, how much further will we let them go?

That is an important thing those dera Gurudwaras do! They place the photos near Guru Granth Sahib so that people bow to both!

What if they decide one of Yogi Bhajan's pivotal yoga books deserves to be placed beside or above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Wouldn't it be hard to say no, considering they had already been allowed place a picture of their idol there?

I don't see that happening in future. But at one point I was afraid if the Prakash of Guru Granth Sahib there is just in english translation.

It's a subtle form of sabotage.

We are all being sabotaged by Maya, and we can point out the folly in others, never in ourselves. We should work on both sides, inside and out, ourselves and others, to ensure progress of Khalsa Panth. No one is wrong, we are not right.

 

[linzer]

But then it is not explicitly written in Rehat Maryada. Not explicitly written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. So people will decorate the Gurudwara as they feel so. And remember, Yogi Bhajan was the one who started 3HO. Most of the people met YB before they met Guru Nanak. Even if they proclaim themselves to be Sikhs, most of the new 3HO people probably think YB is their savior.

Actually it is specified in both the S.R.M as below ;
f. [FONT=CGOLLD+Arial,Arial][FONT=CGOLLD+Arial,Arial]Pressing the legs of the cot on which the Guru Granth Sahib is installed, rubbing nose against walls and on platforms, held sacred, or massaging these, placing water below the Guru Granth Sahib’s seat, making or installing statues, or idols inside the gurduwaras, bowing before the picture of the Sikh Gurus or elders - all these are irreligious self-willed egotism, contrary to gurmat (the Guru’s way).
[/FONT][/FONT]
In the rehat of Sikh Dharma intl. (Aka 3HO)
It says that only pictures of the Gurus or historic gurdwaras are permitted inside the Gurdwara and should be kept to a minimum. No picture of other people should be hung. (I'd include a copy but what I have is in Spanish.)
Seems they can't even follow their own rehat.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

But then it is not explicitly written in Rehat Maryada. Not explicitly written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. So people will decorate the Gurudwara as they feel so. And remember, Yogi Bhajan was the one who started 3HO. Most of the people met YB before they met Guru Nanak. Even if they proclaim themselves to be Sikhs, most of the new 3HO people probably think YB is their savior.

Actually it is specified in both the S.R.M as below ;
f. [FONT=CGOLLD+Arial,Arial][FONT=CGOLLD+Arial,Arial]Pressing the legs of the cot on which the Guru Granth Sahib is installed, rubbing nose against walls and on platforms, held sacred, or massaging these, placing water below the Guru Granth Sahib’s seat, making or installing statues, or idols inside the gurduwaras, bowing before the picture of the Sikh Gurus or elders - all these are irreligious self-willed egotism, contrary to gurmat (the Guru’s way).
[/FONT][/FONT]
In the rehat of Sikh Dharma intl. (Aka 3HO)
It says that only pictures of the Gurus or historic gurdwaras are permitted inside the Gurdwara and should be kept to a minimum. No picture of other people should be hung. (I'd include a copy but what I have is in Spanish.)
Seems they can't even follow their own rehat.

They are NOT ALONE..this DISEASE afflicts many...The AKAL TAKHAT itself DOESNT FOLLOW ITS OWN SRM...the SGPC DISREGARDS its own SGPC SRM..the Two Takhats OUTSIDE PUNJAB follow their OWN Maryadas..the Jathedar of Takhat Patna is a POLYGAMIST....the list is ENDLESS..the ROT stinks to high heaven...

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

See this new video and how they subtly OK reading from translation during Akhand Paath:

Gurbani Pronunciation Exclusivity - YouTube

 

[Ishna]

Kanwaljit bhaji

I see Guruka Singh saying he's seen it done. Is that a problem?

Is an akhand paath in English less than an akhand paath in Punjabi? If so, why?

 

[Taranjeet singh]

Ishna ji,

Sorry for barging in.

It is abtrusive to explain this. But the following shall answer your query. I am giving the full write up for the sake of completeness.

Akhand Path (Gurmukhī: ਅਖੰਡ ਪਾਠ, Devanāgarī: अखंड पाठ, Shahmukhi: اکھنڈ پاٹھ) is the common practise of continuous recitation (without any break) of sacred religious texts in Hinduism and Sikhism.

[edit]Sikhism

The continuous recitation (without any break) of the Guru Granth Sahib from beginning to end, (all 1430 pages,) lasting about 48 hours, by a team of readers. This "ritual" is considered a very holy practice and is said to bring peace and solace to the participants and the passive listener of the recitation. During the reading it is tradition for langar (or communal food) to be available at all times, thus requiring the continual service and dedication of those in whose honour the Akhand Path is being held for.
The recitation (or "Path") is undertaken for various reasons. It can be in honor of a particular occasion; to mark a happy or sad occasion within the family; or simply to increase one’s feeling of connection to Waheguru. Some of following may call for an Akhand Path depending on the family's circumstances: a birth, a birthday, recovery from a medical operation, a wedding, a death, a graduation, on achieving a goal like a high school certificate, on passing the driving lesson, an anniversary, a historic occasion, etc.
Some Gurdwaras hold a weekly Akhand Path and this gives the congregation (Sadh Sangat) a beautiful opportunity to establish a close relationship with the Guru, the community and provides the opportunity of carry out volunteer work (Seva) thus obtaining the blessing of the Guru’s Word to the whole of the community.
It is said that when Guru Gobind Singh had completed the writing of the Guru Granth Sahib, he had five members of the congregation (Sadh Sangat) read it to him continuously. He stood and listened to the entire Guru Granth Sahib. People brought him water for his bath and for his meals where he stood. This was the first Akhand Path. The second Akhand Path was in Nanded after Guru Gobind Singh sent Banda Singh Bahadar to Punjab. The Akhand Pathees (readers of the Path) were Bhai Gurbaksh Singh, Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Dharam Singh (of Panj Piaray), Bhai Santokh Singh, and Bhai Hari Singh (who used to write the daily diary of Guru Gobind Singh). Before giving the Guruship to the Guru Granth Sahib (then called the Adi Granth) the Guru held this Akhand Path and then proclaimed the Adi Granth as the perpetual Guru of the Sikh.
Following this example, the Sikhs started the tradition of dedicating Akhand Paths to various activities. Before battles, the Sikhs would arrange and listen to an Akhand Path and then prepared for Battle. An Akhand Path was arranged before the Sikhs set out to rescue 18,000 indigenous women from the Moghuls, who had captured them and were taking them as slaves.
In 1742, when Sikhs were in the jungles of Punjab, one Sikh woman warrior named Bibi Sundari, requested just before she died (due to the wounds inflicted in battle,) to have an Akhand Path arranged for her. She lay there next to the Guru Granth Sahib and listened to the full recitation of this Path. After kirtan, Ardas and Hukam, she received the Karah Prashad, uttered "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh" breathing her last. Thus began the tradition of reading an Akhand Path in 48 hours.
If the Akhand Path is to be recited in Gurmukhi, then it should be completed within 48 hours. If it is to be done in English, it will take 72 hours to complete.

During an Akhand Path, if a Hukam is taken at the end of a program, the Pathee (person reading the Path) reads the Gurbani that they have arrived at in the regular course of reading. They may slow down and read it clearly. In this case, the first and last two lines are not repeated. When the Pathee reaches the end of the Hukam, they continue in the reading of the Akhand Path.

Akhand Path is supposed to be read loud, clear and also it should be correct.
It is essential for a person to understand the words that are being recited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhand_Path

Following is an extract taken from Sikh Rehat Maryada

Sadharan Path (Completion of Normal Intermittent Reading of the Guru Granth Sahib)

Article VIII

a. Every Sikh should, as far as possible, maintain a separate and exclusive place for the installation of Guru Granth Sahib, in his home.

b. Every Sikh, man, woman, boy or girl, should learn Gurmukhi to be able to read the Guru Granth Sahib.

c. Every Sikh should take the Hukam (Command) of the Guru Granth Sahib in the ambrosial (early)hours of the morning before taking meal. If he/she fails to do that, he/she should read or listen to reading from the Guru Granth Sahib some time during the day. If he/she cannot do that either, during travel etc., or owing to any other impediment, he/she should not give in to a feeling of guilt.

d. It is desirable that every Sikh should carry on a continuous reading of the Guru Granth Sahib and complete a full reading in one or two months or over a longer period.

e. While undertaking a full reading of the Guru Granth Sahib , one should recite the Anand Sahib (the first five and the last stanzas) and perform the Ardas. One should, thereafter, read the Japuji. Akhand Path (Uninterrupted-Non-stop-Completion of the reading of the Guru Granth Sahib)

Article IX

a. The non-stop reading of the Guru Granth Sahib is carried on at hard times or on occasions of elation or joy. It takes approximately fortyeight hours. The non-stop reading implies continuous, uninterrupted reading. The reading must be clear and correct. Reading too fast, so that the person listening in to it cannot follow the contents, amounts to irreverence to the Scriptures. The reading should be correct and clear, due care being bestowed on consonant and vowel even though that takes a little longer to complete.

b. Whichever family or congregation undertakes the non-stop reading should carry it out itself through its members, relatives, friends, etc., all together. The number of reciters is not prescribed.
If a person, himself, cannot read, he should listen in to the reading by some competent reader. However, it should never be allowed to happen that the reader carries on the reading all by himself/herself and no member of the congregation or the family is listening in to the reading. The reader should be served with food and clothing to the best of the host's means.

c. Placing a pitcher, ceremonial clarified-butter-fed lamp, coconut, etc. around, during the course of the uninterrupted or any other reading of Guru Granth Sahib, or reading of other Scriptural texts side by side with or in the course of such reading is contrary to the gurmat (Guru's way).

Commencing the Non-Stop Reading (Akhandpath)

Article X

While undertaking the intermittent reading of the whole Guru Granth Sahib, the sacred pudding (Karhah Prashad) for offering should be brought and after reciting the Anand Sahib (six stanzas) and offering Ardas, Hukam should be taken.
While beginning the unbroken reading, the sacred pudding should first be laid. Thereafter, after reciting the Anand Sahib(six stanzas), offering the Ardas and taking the Hukam, the reading should he commenced. Concluding the Reading

Article XI

a. The reading of the whole Guru Granth Sahib (intermittent or non-stop) may be concluded with the reading of Mundawani or the Rag Mala according to the convention traditionally observed at the concerned place. (Since there is a difference of opinion within the Panth on this issue, nobody should dare to write or print a copy of the Guru Granth Sahib excluding the Rag Mala). Thereafter, after reciting the Anand Sahib, the Ardas of the conclusion of the reading should be offered and the sacred pudding (Karhah Prashad) distributed.

b. On the conclusion of the reading, offering of draperies, fly-whisk and awning, having regard to the requirements of the Guru Granth Sahib, and of other things, for Panthic causes, should be made to the best of means.

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_three_chap_five.html

Speaking Personally, Akhand Paath is to be carried out in the language the Granth has been written as there cannot be any translation of Bani with cent percent accuracy in any language and that is why Gurmukhi is the script that is to be read during Akhand Paath.

But necessity is the mother of invention. If there is no choice with someone who does not know Gurmukhi It is then Akhand Path may be carried out in English.

.. not sure if SRM says anything about this. I have yet to attend a Paath that has been carried out in English and it would be true for most of us in India who have made it a point to learn Gurmukhi. I have also learnt Gurmukhi through private tutions just for reading Bani.

Coming back to your question there cannot be anything right or wrong; it all boils down to individual's happiness and peace of mind that is the objective of all living being. If one is happy with Akhand Paath being carried out in English-what is wrong in this? Let it be so because ultimately it is between you and Your God, anyway.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

If Gurus wanted the Paath to be read in other languages, they would have authorized it while they were there. All this while, we have Gurbani written in other scripts, but the translations are not used. And his example of sevadar with stick and the granthi sleeping has nothing to do with what he was talking about. Ishna ji, what you would you like to listen to? What Guru is telling you (Gurbani) or what someone thinks Guru is telling you (Translation)?