The pind culture of Punjab (also jatt culture) is quite a masculine one.How can you say that it has nothing to do away with it.Tell me why 90% of young boys of Punjab are now clean shaven but 80-90% of Boys in Urban India are turbaned.It is not like Urban Sikh boys have so much faith in Sikhi ,it is just their families put extreme pressure on them to wear Turban
A Confused Punjabi-Sikh Girl
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The pind culture of Punjab (also jatt culture) is quite a masculine one.How can you say that it has nothing to do away with it.Tell me why 90% of young boys of Punjab are now clean shaven but 80-90% of Boys in Urban India are turbaned.It is not like Urban Sikh boys have so much faith in Sikhi ,it is just their families put extreme pressure on them to wear Turban
rajneesh madhok
SPNer
- Jan 1, 2010
- 517
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Dear Blissji,
Regards,
The double standard is not from today but from centuries. The fact is that all girls are trained to be mothers from infancy on means that they are all trained to devote their lives to men, those include their sons and others. All the women are trained to force other women to exemplify their qualities those can make male members happy. In other words even in intercourse expresses the power men have over women, means to say that we have a double standard which expresses that a man can show how much he cares by being violent. The women shows love and affection on getting hurt, by this formula by how much she will take, how much she will endure.
Now we come to the point. The point raised by you are not related with religion but related with domination in society. In almost every religion such type of practices are adopted. You are right that in Indian families such type of culture is in practice that they differentiate the pattern of living in men and women. The moral behaviour can not be differentiated with racism. I agree to you that we are upholding caste system. In every matrimonial columns of newspapers we find the advertisements based on castes. So, I think that in our system all of us still believe in Caste system. Especially during marriage the consideration regarding Scheduled Castes still persist. No doubt intercaste marriages are common these days and every parents like to get their ward married in respectable family. So, if your parents think so keeping in consideration about your future it is not bad. You should not disagree to their opinions one should be having freedom up to an extent. You should convince them by highlighting the plus points of the proposed match. I don't contradict any particular religion. If the parents stress on the benefit of the children then their points should also be considered. The question is related with the bright future of their children the point of discussion is that we should not concentrate on the point of Punjabi culture or Sikhism. In every community the parents will decide on the benefit of their children. You can't change this attitude. I disagree with you as you should consider the view points of your parents also. You are feeling insecure because you yourself knows that you are doing something wrong in your life. The drinking habits of Sikh men you highlighted. I don't concentrate on Sikhs this is bad that the freedom up to an extent to every child is good. The matter you highlighted about the name on facebook of your brother with prefixing Jatt. This is not a matter of great consideration. The points of consideration are the habits he has. Why you are clubbing two aspects Sikhism and the culture. The religion and the directions regarding sex and beliefs are two different factors. I don't say that the religious teachings should not be made But the teachings on characters should be made with religious matter as well. I agree to you that young generation is adopting western culture. We should teach our children the best episodes extracted from our religon/ culture so that they should develop best character in their life. As you are singer and dancer it is not bad on your part. You would have heard about Poonam Dhillon, Amrita Singh and many other female actresses in Bollywood they have earned reputation and no body has ever remarked on their character. Why you are using the word that Punjabi people says that you are departing from your beliefs and morals and so you are wrong. Almighty has provided everybody his/her own judge. If you are right then why you care for others comments. If you are sincere with your profession then there is nothing wrong in doing the job you are doing. The proactive words used to be made for the girls entangled in this profession in India as well. You are not doing anything wrong and doing your profession with utmost honesty then why you care for the comments of others. The list of young female Sikh singers and dancers is very long why anybody will be uncomfortable. Many Punjabi female singers are revered and honoured. Every body has great respect for them. Do your job sincerely and leave the rest on almighty. HE WILL HELP YOU.
Rajneesh Madhok
Regards,
The double standard is not from today but from centuries. The fact is that all girls are trained to be mothers from infancy on means that they are all trained to devote their lives to men, those include their sons and others. All the women are trained to force other women to exemplify their qualities those can make male members happy. In other words even in intercourse expresses the power men have over women, means to say that we have a double standard which expresses that a man can show how much he cares by being violent. The women shows love and affection on getting hurt, by this formula by how much she will take, how much she will endure.
Now we come to the point. The point raised by you are not related with religion but related with domination in society. In almost every religion such type of practices are adopted. You are right that in Indian families such type of culture is in practice that they differentiate the pattern of living in men and women. The moral behaviour can not be differentiated with racism. I agree to you that we are upholding caste system. In every matrimonial columns of newspapers we find the advertisements based on castes. So, I think that in our system all of us still believe in Caste system. Especially during marriage the consideration regarding Scheduled Castes still persist. No doubt intercaste marriages are common these days and every parents like to get their ward married in respectable family. So, if your parents think so keeping in consideration about your future it is not bad. You should not disagree to their opinions one should be having freedom up to an extent. You should convince them by highlighting the plus points of the proposed match. I don't contradict any particular religion. If the parents stress on the benefit of the children then their points should also be considered. The question is related with the bright future of their children the point of discussion is that we should not concentrate on the point of Punjabi culture or Sikhism. In every community the parents will decide on the benefit of their children. You can't change this attitude. I disagree with you as you should consider the view points of your parents also. You are feeling insecure because you yourself knows that you are doing something wrong in your life. The drinking habits of Sikh men you highlighted. I don't concentrate on Sikhs this is bad that the freedom up to an extent to every child is good. The matter you highlighted about the name on facebook of your brother with prefixing Jatt. This is not a matter of great consideration. The points of consideration are the habits he has. Why you are clubbing two aspects Sikhism and the culture. The religion and the directions regarding sex and beliefs are two different factors. I don't say that the religious teachings should not be made But the teachings on characters should be made with religious matter as well. I agree to you that young generation is adopting western culture. We should teach our children the best episodes extracted from our religon/ culture so that they should develop best character in their life. As you are singer and dancer it is not bad on your part. You would have heard about Poonam Dhillon, Amrita Singh and many other female actresses in Bollywood they have earned reputation and no body has ever remarked on their character. Why you are using the word that Punjabi people says that you are departing from your beliefs and morals and so you are wrong. Almighty has provided everybody his/her own judge. If you are right then why you care for others comments. If you are sincere with your profession then there is nothing wrong in doing the job you are doing. The proactive words used to be made for the girls entangled in this profession in India as well. You are not doing anything wrong and doing your profession with utmost honesty then why you care for the comments of others. The list of young female Sikh singers and dancers is very long why anybody will be uncomfortable. Many Punjabi female singers are revered and honoured. Every body has great respect for them. Do your job sincerely and leave the rest on almighty. HE WILL HELP YOU.
Rajneesh Madhok
The same is the boys too.they are trained just to earn and bring money to support families
How many Indian families give choice to their boys to choose career? The boys who rebel against their families are considered as nalayak ,good for nothing etc
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 55
If I may drop my opinion in,
You seem to have the spirit in you that asks these questions, more people should follow that spirit, do not be afraid of the answers, knowing what you know, and making enough people ask enough questions, you could help to change all this by doing exactly the thing it is that you want, you can show the world that women can be entertainers, dancers, singers and still be proud sikhs. It is a hard task but people like you can make a difference by shaking off the traditions and ceremonies and showing what true sikhi is, which is being gurmukh. How you define that is between you and god, but maybe this chance can be used positively to help redefine outdated concepts, I wish you well and hope all that you do, you do with the love of god
You seem to have the spirit in you that asks these questions, more people should follow that spirit, do not be afraid of the answers, knowing what you know, and making enough people ask enough questions, you could help to change all this by doing exactly the thing it is that you want, you can show the world that women can be entertainers, dancers, singers and still be proud sikhs. It is a hard task but people like you can make a difference by shaking off the traditions and ceremonies and showing what true sikhi is, which is being gurmukh. How you define that is between you and god, but maybe this chance can be used positively to help redefine outdated concepts, I wish you well and hope all that you do, you do with the love of god
gurvinder_skhalsa
SPNer
- Oct 16, 2010
- 1
- 1
No doubt nowadays every sikh loks to be confused but we need not to worry .We look to Gurbani
" hain virle ghane nahi faail fakad sansar" means there are only few who will follow the truth.We should not look at those who are wrong but still there are people who are on the side of the truth.
Gurvindersingh
Satbinder Singh
SPNer
- May 10, 2011
- 16
- 17
Re: Confused Punjabi-Sikh Girl
WJKWJF
Hi Intresting debate,
I wanted to raise a few points from the above quote, although I do agree mostly with what you are saying. When you state that It is human nature to copy other cultures your right. Its human nature and this happens in all cultures and around the world. Inuit people ( or eskimos as they were once called) live in the artic but the younger generation have too been influenced by western culture through the internet, tv etc. The older generation are worried that they are losing there culture and moving off to the cities. Cultures will always change over time through natural internal and external factors. The only thing a culture can really control us to educate the new generation about Sikhism or any religion, faith they feel aligned too. Cultures also copy good points too.
Casual dating,pre marital sex was never a part of Punjabi culture but they copied it from west
This point im not sure your right. You are right to say that its not in Punjabi culture ( i want to make clear im talking about Punjabi culture not sikhism which of course totally condones this) but pre marital sex has happened before the influence of western culture, casual dating has happended before the western influnce. This has happended long before western culture entered the mix it was just well hidden. But you are right in the sense it is now so much more open and public which I agree with you I do not like so much.
Young Punjabi's are forgetting about good points from their culture like taking care of parents,siblings ,family values etc
100% AGREE
Also pind Punjabi Culture of jatts is much different from other Punjabi's mainly urban one.Sexism is much more among jatts than in other Punjabis
Er how do you know this??
I think many punjabi village men are probably sexist not just Jatts, so to say that it much more among Jatts than other Punjabi is probably a blanket generalisation. in villages the men work, tend the land etc and the women cook food, bring up the children ( generalisation ) but you could say this about african farmers, Brazilian farmers, Itallian olive farm workers, British factory workers from the north of England who want a cooked meal as soon as they get in.
To the young ladies questions i will post a response in a few days as i got carried away. I love music and dance so will post my opinions soon.
God bless
WJKWJF
Hi Intresting debate,
I wanted to raise a few points from the above quote, although I do agree mostly with what you are saying. When you state that It is human nature to copy other cultures your right. Its human nature and this happens in all cultures and around the world. Inuit people ( or eskimos as they were once called) live in the artic but the younger generation have too been influenced by western culture through the internet, tv etc. The older generation are worried that they are losing there culture and moving off to the cities. Cultures will always change over time through natural internal and external factors. The only thing a culture can really control us to educate the new generation about Sikhism or any religion, faith they feel aligned too. Cultures also copy good points too.
Casual dating,pre marital sex was never a part of Punjabi culture but they copied it from west
This point im not sure your right. You are right to say that its not in Punjabi culture ( i want to make clear im talking about Punjabi culture not sikhism which of course totally condones this) but pre marital sex has happened before the influence of western culture, casual dating has happended before the western influnce. This has happended long before western culture entered the mix it was just well hidden. But you are right in the sense it is now so much more open and public which I agree with you I do not like so much.
Young Punjabi's are forgetting about good points from their culture like taking care of parents,siblings ,family values etc
100% AGREE
Also pind Punjabi Culture of jatts is much different from other Punjabi's mainly urban one.Sexism is much more among jatts than in other Punjabis
Er how do you know this??
I think many punjabi village men are probably sexist not just Jatts, so to say that it much more among Jatts than other Punjabi is probably a blanket generalisation. in villages the men work, tend the land etc and the women cook food, bring up the children ( generalisation ) but you could say this about african farmers, Brazilian farmers, Itallian olive farm workers, British factory workers from the north of England who want a cooked meal as soon as they get in.
To the young ladies questions i will post a response in a few days as i got carried away. I love music and dance so will post my opinions soon.
God bless
- Nov 24, 2004
- 29
- 71
- 81
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!
The world has become a small place as technological advancement has percolated to the common man, particularly to the rural areas. In the cities, it is no less.
Why blame the Jatts only when everyone is thinking of their caste and community. I met a person in the adjoining high-rise building who is a Jatt -a public school educated well read retired army officer. He says he has been on good terms with everyone which includes other Punjabies like Khatri, Arora and Ramgarhias besides people from other regions including South Indians. There are Hindu Jats who are from his gotra and he has good relations with them.
One day, one of the ladies -a Khatri- asked him. "Tusi Jatt ho?"
He did not hesitate to say "Yes madam."
There after everyone started avoiding him as if he is an untouchable. Why this?
If the Jatt is a dominating personality, then it is based on historical events that have taken place in Northwestern India ever since the Huns entered from Peshawar in 456 AD. They were led by Mihircula and were responsible for the downfall of Gupta empire when they raided Patna (then Patliputra) and ransacked Nalanda University.
The Huns are far off cousins of the Germans, as per Indian historians. The word Jatt is derived from one of the Gothic tribe called Jutes. Perhaps, Jutes were more in numbers in the invasion compared to other tribes like Angles and Saxons. From the name Jutes it became Jatt. As they moved further into India, over a period of time, Jatt became Jat. But the basic character remained the same -as the German.
The term German was given to the other branch of the same Gothic tribe -which invaded Europe around 200 AD- by the Romans. Once the Roman empire weakened, the Germans spread all over Europe including Britain. In the whole of Europe, there is profound influence of German culture including their languages. Many of the words in English have German origin.
You will find many words in colloquial Punjabi which have similar sound and meaning as German or English words. This forum may not be the right space to list them including similar sounding surnames -Buttar and Butaar, Johal and Joal, Bhullar and Buller and many more. The list is long.
When Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa, it was the Jatts who joined in the largest numbers. The Jatts contribution to Sikhi cannot be surpassed -Baba Buddhaji (a Randhawa) whose family supervised the change over of Guruship; Bhai Santokh Singh Bhangu whose writings are important in Sikh literature. He was the grandson of Bhai Mehtab Singh who beheaded Massah Rangar for defiling Harmandir Sahib when no one dared to do so. He was accompanied by Sukha Singh, another Jatt. The list is long.
The dynamic culture of the Jatts compared to Sikhi are complimentary yet diverse in a way. In the rural areas, the Jatts have always dominated. Now that job are being given on the basis of caste reservations -as a political expediency and vote back necessities- the Jatts are feeling threatened. Therefore, their behavior is an assertion in other ways. The Hindu Jats of Haryana, West UP and Northern Rajasthan are demanding reservations. But the Sikh Jatts have not asked because intrinsically there is no caste in Sikhism.
Indian communities -where ever they have migrated- are in the throes of an evolution, exposed to good as well bad influences of other societies. One can see that from the comments of SPN readers.
The young lady who wants to dance and sing, should go ahead with an open mind. Consider it as your profession. Your professional affiliations and your religious beliefs are two different things. Don't worry about the society as long as you have not any thing wrong.
May Waheguru give you the strength to bear the upheavals in your life.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!
The world has become a small place as technological advancement has percolated to the common man, particularly to the rural areas. In the cities, it is no less.
Why blame the Jatts only when everyone is thinking of their caste and community. I met a person in the adjoining high-rise building who is a Jatt -a public school educated well read retired army officer. He says he has been on good terms with everyone which includes other Punjabies like Khatri, Arora and Ramgarhias besides people from other regions including South Indians. There are Hindu Jats who are from his gotra and he has good relations with them.
One day, one of the ladies -a Khatri- asked him. "Tusi Jatt ho?"
He did not hesitate to say "Yes madam."
There after everyone started avoiding him as if he is an untouchable. Why this?
If the Jatt is a dominating personality, then it is based on historical events that have taken place in Northwestern India ever since the Huns entered from Peshawar in 456 AD. They were led by Mihircula and were responsible for the downfall of Gupta empire when they raided Patna (then Patliputra) and ransacked Nalanda University.
The Huns are far off cousins of the Germans, as per Indian historians. The word Jatt is derived from one of the Gothic tribe called Jutes. Perhaps, Jutes were more in numbers in the invasion compared to other tribes like Angles and Saxons. From the name Jutes it became Jatt. As they moved further into India, over a period of time, Jatt became Jat. But the basic character remained the same -as the German.
The term German was given to the other branch of the same Gothic tribe -which invaded Europe around 200 AD- by the Romans. Once the Roman empire weakened, the Germans spread all over Europe including Britain. In the whole of Europe, there is profound influence of German culture including their languages. Many of the words in English have German origin.
You will find many words in colloquial Punjabi which have similar sound and meaning as German or English words. This forum may not be the right space to list them including similar sounding surnames -Buttar and Butaar, Johal and Joal, Bhullar and Buller and many more. The list is long.
When Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa, it was the Jatts who joined in the largest numbers. The Jatts contribution to Sikhi cannot be surpassed -Baba Buddhaji (a Randhawa) whose family supervised the change over of Guruship; Bhai Santokh Singh Bhangu whose writings are important in Sikh literature. He was the grandson of Bhai Mehtab Singh who beheaded Massah Rangar for defiling Harmandir Sahib when no one dared to do so. He was accompanied by Sukha Singh, another Jatt. The list is long.
The dynamic culture of the Jatts compared to Sikhi are complimentary yet diverse in a way. In the rural areas, the Jatts have always dominated. Now that job are being given on the basis of caste reservations -as a political expediency and vote back necessities- the Jatts are feeling threatened. Therefore, their behavior is an assertion in other ways. The Hindu Jats of Haryana, West UP and Northern Rajasthan are demanding reservations. But the Sikh Jatts have not asked because intrinsically there is no caste in Sikhism.
Indian communities -where ever they have migrated- are in the throes of an evolution, exposed to good as well bad influences of other societies. One can see that from the comments of SPN readers.
The young lady who wants to dance and sing, should go ahead with an open mind. Consider it as your profession. Your professional affiliations and your religious beliefs are two different things. Don't worry about the society as long as you have not any thing wrong.
May Waheguru give you the strength to bear the upheavals in your life.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!
Satbinder Singh
SPNer
- May 10, 2011
- 16
- 17
The world has become a small place as technological advancement has percolated to the common man, particularly to the rural areas. In the cities, it is no less.
Why blame the Jatts only when everyone is thinking of their caste and community. I met a person in the adjoining high-rise building who is a Jatt -a public school educated well read retired army officer. He says he has been on good terms with everyone which includes other Punjabies like Khatri, Arora and Ramgarhias besides people from other regions including South Indians. There are Hindu Jats who are from his gotra and he has good relations with them.
One day, one of the ladies -a Khatri- asked him. "Tusi Jatt ho?"
He did not hesitate to say "Yes madam."
There after everyone started avoiding him as if he is an untouchable. Why this?
If the Jatt is a dominating personality, then it is based on historical events that have taken place in Northwestern India ever since the Huns entered from Peshawar in 456 AD. They were led by Mihircula and were responsible for the downfall of Gupta empire when they raided Patna (then Patliputra) and ransacked Nalanda University.
The Huns are far off cousins of the Germans, as per Indian historians. The word Jatt is derived from one of the Gothic tribe called Jutes. Perhaps, Jutes were more in numbers in the invasion compared to other tribes like Angles and Saxons. From the name Jutes it became Jatt. As they moved further into India, over a period of time, Jatt became Jat. But the basic character remained the same -as the German.
fantastic point.
Why blame the Jatts only when everyone is thinking of their caste and community. I met a person in the adjoining high-rise building who is a Jatt -a public school educated well read retired army officer. He says he has been on good terms with everyone which includes other Punjabies like Khatri, Arora and Ramgarhias besides people from other regions including South Indians. There are Hindu Jats who are from his gotra and he has good relations with them.
One day, one of the ladies -a Khatri- asked him. "Tusi Jatt ho?"
He did not hesitate to say "Yes madam."
There after everyone started avoiding him as if he is an untouchable. Why this?
If the Jatt is a dominating personality, then it is based on historical events that have taken place in Northwestern India ever since the Huns entered from Peshawar in 456 AD. They were led by Mihircula and were responsible for the downfall of Gupta empire when they raided Patna (then Patliputra) and ransacked Nalanda University.
The Huns are far off cousins of the Germans, as per Indian historians. The word Jatt is derived from one of the Gothic tribe called Jutes. Perhaps, Jutes were more in numbers in the invasion compared to other tribes like Angles and Saxons. From the name Jutes it became Jatt. As they moved further into India, over a period of time, Jatt became Jat. But the basic character remained the same -as the German.
fantastic point.
Waheguru Ki Fateh
It is a fact that Punjabi culture is considered to be higher than Sikhism.To be a Sikh implies a good discipline and living a pure life
"Truth is the highest virtue
but still higher is the truthful living"
is the eddict in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.Being a difficult thing to follow people(Sikhs) invent their own rules about Sikh way of life.It is these people who resort to drinking,showing their castes,discriminating with women folk and refuse to follow Sikh Reht maryada.But we need not worry about these guys;they will understand sooner or latter that what they are thinking is not the sikh way of life.The core problem is of course going away from Naam Simran,the essence of Sikh values.It is really a good thing to put such questions to ourselves.
With love and regards to all.
Gian Singh Aulakh
It is a fact that Punjabi culture is considered to be higher than Sikhism.To be a Sikh implies a good discipline and living a pure life
"Truth is the highest virtue
but still higher is the truthful living"
is the eddict in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.Being a difficult thing to follow people(Sikhs) invent their own rules about Sikh way of life.It is these people who resort to drinking,showing their castes,discriminating with women folk and refuse to follow Sikh Reht maryada.But we need not worry about these guys;they will understand sooner or latter that what they are thinking is not the sikh way of life.The core problem is of course going away from Naam Simran,the essence of Sikh values.It is really a good thing to put such questions to ourselves.
With love and regards to all.
Gian Singh Aulakh
pre marital sex was an exception in Indian culture.You cannot count exceptions as part of culture.Tell me what kind of Birth control People used to do if they had pre marital sex?
Well very large majority of Punjabi farmers are jatts infact many times jatts themselves use
the term jatt for farmer .I was hearing a discussion punjabi farmer s and suddenly the representative of Punjabi farmers used the jatts for farmers though he changed quickly but it showed that how many people believe Jatts as only the punjabi farmers so its obvious that culture of Punjabi village is dominated by Jatts
Disagree with it If a turbaned sikh man wants to become Hero or model then what would you advise him.Just cut your hair and go ahead in your career .also there many professions in world like armies of many countries,pilots ,flight stewards etc where turbaned Sikhs are not allowed ,so should sikh start getting rid of hair?
On one hand the entire sikh community get so emotional when they see Young sikhs abandoning Turban but on the other hand they advise females to go ahead whatever career they want to choose.
tejinder56
SPNer
- Jan 6, 2008
- 1
- 0
Guru Nanak Devji always said when asked who he was hindu or muslim .He said ' I am 'KHUDA DA BANDA' ie man of god.We are all Khudas' bandas.So who are not following his teachings are not gursikhs. They r manmukhs.All gurus were against castes .So dont get confused - Have courage to follow what u believe is right considering the teachings of Gurus.Everything is changing excpt GOD. U are in new country ,new culture.This strugle will continue till u completely westernised else u make them Punjabis but Truth that God is one will not change as given in MOOL MANTAR. Relax :swordfight-kudiyan:
- Nov 5, 2010
- 866
- 326
- 52
sat sri akaal,
what you say or experience is "sat"
but there is more to experience
to realise the world
follow guru's bani as life style
understand meta physical reality
shabad to quote in this pretext
"de vimal mat mere sareere"
our five sense organs forms our mind perceptions
so
it is requested to our own five sense organs
to form good perceptions
bring change in physical environment to bring change in mind perception
understand mind
and bring change in mind perception to bring changes in physical environment
i.e
go to disco's watch drunkard and perceive bad
go to gurudawara watch guru's people and perceive good
stay attached to guru's learning
nanak naam
chaadi kalan
tere bane sarbat da bhala
people who thinks of betterment for all
always are in progress
waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh
nippyhubby
SPNer
- Sep 29, 2010
- 4
- 1
- 58
i would say ,its not bad to sing or dance ,its not bad to go out with your friends.but the problem comes when you dont know where your limit is.the problem lies with your age group .in this age you all think what ever you think or do is right,and you think your parent were born at age of 40 or what ever age they are now .what you dont know that your parents have also went through this phase of life.and that they know everything whats coming in your mind.at this age you think only about yourself and dont think about consequences and socity,and the one how knows ,you dont listen to them .parents are not scared of your dancing or singing instead they are scared of other sexual activities which are attached with these professions.they are not scared of your going out with friends ,they are scared of you doing sex.indian kids who are overseas wanted to be westernised but they want their parents to remain indians because if parents start behaving like whites they would show you door.
you said "and many more beliefs which contradict Sikhism",,--have you read sikhism? ,have you read bible ?i would say a little knowledge is dangrous.
when we say white and black people got bad morale:these males dont have respact for females and they only know how to use(sex)them and then discard them.indian girls because of their indian "culture thinking" feel they are very good but they are not
every religon teaches the same things but because white countries are more laws based society so they have more of individuals life attitude,where people dont care what others will think.sikh is the only religion which is still very close to the teachings.it teaches us to live in a society and not like animals (what we are trying to copy now).
you can: sing and dance(but not vulgur),go out with friends(no sex before marriage and only in day time),can cut your hair (but respact your religion).limit is the more important aspect.
Bottom line is years come years go yug comes and go but WOMEN WILL STAY WOMEN.and you have to accept that.you can not challenge the nature.
Dear Bliss Ji
Welcome to the finest forum on the web!
Yours is a good thought-provoking post and I would like to offer a few comments in return:
1) Nothing wrong with the performing arts per se but I can see where Kanwardeep Ji is coming from. I am assuming you are referring to popular music where there is a known sub-culture of "sex and drugs and rock'n'roll." So it is not at all surprising your family would have reservations. That is not unique to Sikhism or Punjabi culture either...that sort of reaction is common across all cultures. This is because few families want their children to enter such a volatile career path where there is no consistency of income and a much higher risk of, shall we say, opportunities to do "bad things"
2) You are also correct about male dominance. Girls are supposed to stay "pure" so they don't get a reputation that will affect their marriage chances. Guys on the other hand can get away with practically anything so long as when the time comes, they do their duty to the family, i.e the marriage thing and settle down and co-produce lovely Grandsons. Furthermore, if a woman does make a career for herself and work full-time, there is still an expectation she will do the majority of the housework as well as Mothering the Grandsons. Sweeping generalisation perhaps, but in my experience broadly true! And I think fair again to say cross-cultural..although more in Eastern cultures than Western. Probably because it is the female that produces the next generation. But ironic everyone wants boys when they need the girls to produce the boys in the first place!
3) You are also right in noting there is racism and casteism too. As you and Kanwardeep Ji have already noted, Jatts are pretty bad for it. But it won't change overnight. And again, I think it is fair to say that all cultures have pride in themselves and regard themselves as being better in some way. Deep down we are all still human and tribal...but I guess also fair to say some more than others....
4) Re the changing culture thing, as you are a child of 2 cultures, you can embrace the best of both. But there will be contradictions so ultimately, you will have to decide which one is to be the dominant culture that represents you most and be true to that one. Having said that, Mai Ji makes an excellent point - I have spoken to people who are visiting from India and their view is also that the diaspora is stuck in another age...the one they left behind when they emigrated. Ironically, having moved to the liberal West, they remain backward and insular and secular whilst the India they left behind decades ago has evolved and moved on.
5) Finally, at your young age there are opportunites for the taking so no harm in having Plan B in your back pocket should the music career not crystalise. If you do make it big however, I will be more than happy to accept some first class air tickets for your first gig!
Cheers and God Bless
Welcome to the finest forum on the web!
Yours is a good thought-provoking post and I would like to offer a few comments in return:
1) Nothing wrong with the performing arts per se but I can see where Kanwardeep Ji is coming from. I am assuming you are referring to popular music where there is a known sub-culture of "sex and drugs and rock'n'roll." So it is not at all surprising your family would have reservations. That is not unique to Sikhism or Punjabi culture either...that sort of reaction is common across all cultures. This is because few families want their children to enter such a volatile career path where there is no consistency of income and a much higher risk of, shall we say, opportunities to do "bad things"
2) You are also correct about male dominance. Girls are supposed to stay "pure" so they don't get a reputation that will affect their marriage chances. Guys on the other hand can get away with practically anything so long as when the time comes, they do their duty to the family, i.e the marriage thing and settle down and co-produce lovely Grandsons. Furthermore, if a woman does make a career for herself and work full-time, there is still an expectation she will do the majority of the housework as well as Mothering the Grandsons. Sweeping generalisation perhaps, but in my experience broadly true! And I think fair again to say cross-cultural..although more in Eastern cultures than Western. Probably because it is the female that produces the next generation. But ironic everyone wants boys when they need the girls to produce the boys in the first place!
3) You are also right in noting there is racism and casteism too. As you and Kanwardeep Ji have already noted, Jatts are pretty bad for it. But it won't change overnight. And again, I think it is fair to say that all cultures have pride in themselves and regard themselves as being better in some way. Deep down we are all still human and tribal...but I guess also fair to say some more than others....
4) Re the changing culture thing, as you are a child of 2 cultures, you can embrace the best of both. But there will be contradictions so ultimately, you will have to decide which one is to be the dominant culture that represents you most and be true to that one. Having said that, Mai Ji makes an excellent point - I have spoken to people who are visiting from India and their view is also that the diaspora is stuck in another age...the one they left behind when they emigrated. Ironically, having moved to the liberal West, they remain backward and insular and secular whilst the India they left behind decades ago has evolved and moved on.
5) Finally, at your young age there are opportunites for the taking so no harm in having Plan B in your back pocket should the music career not crystalise. If you do make it big however, I will be more than happy to accept some first class air tickets for your first gig!
Cheers and God Bless
Last edited:
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 55
KDSji, I think you are wrong, you make it sound like turbaned sikhs could not be hero's or models, surely there are sikh models with turbans in punjab, I have seen adverts with men in turbans, ok, they are mostly advertising fixo, but it is not as black and white as how you have put it.
Also you seem hugely worried by the large amount of people cutting hair and losing turban. I understand this, but I would be more worried if large amounts of men did not lose turban, but carried on unsikhi thoughts and ways in the hope that the presence of a turban will save them. It took me 15 years to even contemplate wearing a turban again, but 15 years in the wilderness is surely better than 15 years of lies.
There is also another point. correct me if I am wrong, but sikhism shows you how to live here on this earth to the point where your thinking merges with the creator, and you achieve bliss on earth through that merging. Can anyone stand up here and say they have achieved this?, the point I am trying to make is that is it possible you can only get closer and closer but the final pieces you only get through death?, on this basis, each and all of us sikhs here are on different points of the same path, sikhism also embraces life, and goals, and passions, and work
On my last point, and it is an extreme point, and I do hope I not offend anyone, but take a prostitute who happens to be sikh (and yes, they do exist), lets just say that her profession is her only sin, other than that she tries to comply with sikh code and conduct, is her sin (and i use the word sin in an unabrahamic sense) any worse than that of millions of men in turbans who have lustful thoughts when they see a woman who is not the wife, is a sardar with a clean head, who enjoys the odd drink a worse sikh for doing so, well I would imagine the drink takes him further away from god than he would have been, but any further than if he had been dwelling on anger or revenge or lust?
Sikhism is here to give as a guide as to how we should act on this earth, ultimately and simply it is following gods will as best we can, in thought, action and words. I would say to bliss, how you do this is up to you and your relationship with the creator, and no one else. You must of course respect your parents, but where parents are unable to give the proper guidance and fall short of spirit, but just push forward traditions and social fears (LOG KYA KEHENG GAI), then you must take direct inspiration from the SGGS and try the best you can to achieve your goals whilst keeping the creators voice inside strong and loud
Harry Rakhraj
SPNer
- Jan 16, 2010
- 36
- 69
You ask "do you disagree with me"? No, not at all. Your observations are very valid.
Nobody, not even the perpetrators of these vile things, will Disagree.
You then go on to ask :"How could we change this?"
The Answer to your Question lies in what you have so feelingly brought out.
The fact that young Sikh persons like you have started noticing these anomalies
and asking Questions is, by itself, proof positive that things will change. But then,
like all good things in life, it takes time. Keep questioning whatever you feel is not right.
But be patient. These aberrations have crept into our Culture/Religious Practices over
centuries. It'll probably take decades for them to be cleansed out. But cleansed out, they
will be.
Above all else, retain the questioning spirit. And never, ever let these things get to you to
the extent that they turn a promising youngster like you into a cynical adult.
Nobody, not even the perpetrators of these vile things, will Disagree.
You then go on to ask :"How could we change this?"
The Answer to your Question lies in what you have so feelingly brought out.
The fact that young Sikh persons like you have started noticing these anomalies
and asking Questions is, by itself, proof positive that things will change. But then,
like all good things in life, it takes time. Keep questioning whatever you feel is not right.
But be patient. These aberrations have crept into our Culture/Religious Practices over
centuries. It'll probably take decades for them to be cleansed out. But cleansed out, they
will be.
Above all else, retain the questioning spirit. And never, ever let these things get to you to
the extent that they turn a promising youngster like you into a cynical adult.
No there are hardly any male models or heroes with turban or beard.Infact 1 Sikh man became Mr.India no.3 position in 2000 but after that he was hardly seen.
Also I am not at all worried but certain people on this site do get worried when they see Sikh men abandoning Turban.Infact even the most liberal sikh sites put emotional articles saying why Sikh boys are not wearing Turban.Hardly clean shaven Sikh men are promoted as role model out of fear that Sikh boys will pick them up as role model and will cut their hair.recently Yuvraj singh ,clean shaven sikh cricketer became Man of the series of world cup ,but there were hardly Sikh sites that praised him.had he been a fully turbaned and bearded sikh then the entire Sikh world would have been going gaga over Him.On the other hand Monty Panesar who was a very average cricketer received so much appreciation from sikh world .Every other day there was an article over him and how he is becoming young role model for sikhs
Harry ji
When it comes uncut hair and turban then Sikhism is one of the most orthodox religion in the world for boys then why to liberalise it for girls?I am very sorry to say that many sikhs including the liberal one get too emotional for turban.If we have to become liberal then why not let Turban and beard die their own death? Why to care about them
Gurmit Singh
SPNer
- Jan 29, 2009
- 23
- 72
Waheguru jee ka Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh
You have raised very relevant and genuine concern, which needs to be addressed by the SGPC, DSGMC, Chief Khalsa Dewan and other Sikh Organizations since spread all over the world. But it is regretted to say that due to their ego and greed for money & power, they have failed miserably in spreading the Gurus' Teachings as enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib from Japp Jee Sahib to Mundavani. Now entire Sikh Nation has become like the cancerous body without any treatment.
But I am of the view that let us not look what others have been doing, who have been following un-Sikhi Way of Living as per examples cited below ?
When we read, understand and practice, Gurbaani teaches the righteous and truthful way of living. Once we start on the Guru's Path, we can then overcome such problems:
(1) Gurbaani equally applies to Females and Males and as such both should obey as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had ordained:
"Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maniyo Granth".
Then, there is no room for duality, illusion or imitating anyone;
(2) Gurbaani teaches us equality without enmity, hatred but if someone does, he/she could be considered as an impostor and anti-Sikh element;
(3) Gurbaani as well as establishment of the Khalsa does not believe in the casteism. Look at the Five Dear Ones selected by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib on 30 March 1699 at Anandpur Sahib. Guru Granth Sahib contains the Baani of Bhagats, who according to Hinduism, may have different castes, but for us they are as equal as Gurus Sahibaan. So we are to practice. In fact due to casteism, mostly propagated by Jaatts, Deravaad and some other Organizations, Sikhie has been disappearing in Punjab. Whereas Radha-soamis, Christians, Deravaad, Nirankaris, Naamdharis, Ravidasiays, etc. have been flourishing like mushrooms. It all due to the stupidity and weakness of the Sikh Organisations.
(4) Gurbaani also tells us not to drink but it has become a fashion. But such evils are not restricted within Punjab only as the Diaspora Sikhs have also been following as well.
In the Guru Granth Sahib at page 1348 (4), under Prabhati Mahla 5, Guru Sahib says - The faithless person burns ritual fires, wearing ochre-colour robes, leaving the comforts of his/her home and undergoes all sorts of sufferings. Then he/she wanders in foreign countries, leaving his/her own country, but all the five evils/vices like the carnal desires, wrath, greed, excessive love for worldly possessions, egotism have followed him/her wherever he/she goes.
Hence, it is for each individual to seek guidance from Gurbaani, and not to imitate others. Episode at Hardwar teaches us to apply our own discerning intellect rather than following others blindly when Guru Nanak Sahib started throwing water towards west instead towards sun as the Hindus were doing!
My request to Bibi Jee is to follow Guru's Way with devotion and humility.
With best wishes and Charhdi Kalaa,
Gurmit Singh (Sydney - Australia)
You have raised very relevant and genuine concern, which needs to be addressed by the SGPC, DSGMC, Chief Khalsa Dewan and other Sikh Organizations since spread all over the world. But it is regretted to say that due to their ego and greed for money & power, they have failed miserably in spreading the Gurus' Teachings as enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib from Japp Jee Sahib to Mundavani. Now entire Sikh Nation has become like the cancerous body without any treatment.
But I am of the view that let us not look what others have been doing, who have been following un-Sikhi Way of Living as per examples cited below ?
When we read, understand and practice, Gurbaani teaches the righteous and truthful way of living. Once we start on the Guru's Path, we can then overcome such problems:
(1) Gurbaani equally applies to Females and Males and as such both should obey as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had ordained:
"Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maniyo Granth".
Then, there is no room for duality, illusion or imitating anyone;
(2) Gurbaani teaches us equality without enmity, hatred but if someone does, he/she could be considered as an impostor and anti-Sikh element;
(3) Gurbaani as well as establishment of the Khalsa does not believe in the casteism. Look at the Five Dear Ones selected by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib on 30 March 1699 at Anandpur Sahib. Guru Granth Sahib contains the Baani of Bhagats, who according to Hinduism, may have different castes, but for us they are as equal as Gurus Sahibaan. So we are to practice. In fact due to casteism, mostly propagated by Jaatts, Deravaad and some other Organizations, Sikhie has been disappearing in Punjab. Whereas Radha-soamis, Christians, Deravaad, Nirankaris, Naamdharis, Ravidasiays, etc. have been flourishing like mushrooms. It all due to the stupidity and weakness of the Sikh Organisations.
(4) Gurbaani also tells us not to drink but it has become a fashion. But such evils are not restricted within Punjab only as the Diaspora Sikhs have also been following as well.
In the Guru Granth Sahib at page 1348 (4), under Prabhati Mahla 5, Guru Sahib says - The faithless person burns ritual fires, wearing ochre-colour robes, leaving the comforts of his/her home and undergoes all sorts of sufferings. Then he/she wanders in foreign countries, leaving his/her own country, but all the five evils/vices like the carnal desires, wrath, greed, excessive love for worldly possessions, egotism have followed him/her wherever he/she goes.
Hence, it is for each individual to seek guidance from Gurbaani, and not to imitate others. Episode at Hardwar teaches us to apply our own discerning intellect rather than following others blindly when Guru Nanak Sahib started throwing water towards west instead towards sun as the Hindus were doing!
My request to Bibi Jee is to follow Guru's Way with devotion and humility.
With best wishes and Charhdi Kalaa,
Gurmit Singh (Sydney - Australia)
hanuman prasad
SPNer
- Mar 29, 2010
- 1
- 1
- 69
Sat Shri Akal ji, Wahe guruji ki Fateh,
I have gone through the article as stated in the SPN andpartially agree with the writer about the present situation of Punjabi culture. Culture of any community changes with the change of overall changes in the other cultures of world. Sikhi and Sikh culture are the two different things, in its purest form sikh culture should be suit to the Sikhi (Sikh philosophy) by Holly Gurus but Sikhi is a truth and it will always remain true and unchanged while culture goes under changes. We can not expect from a normal sikh to live with a complete harmony with Sikhi which was told by the Sikh and other sufi saints.Sikhi will always be live it can not die with time while culture can go down or die with time.
Thanks for your mail and view sharing.
I have gone through the article as stated in the SPN andpartially agree with the writer about the present situation of Punjabi culture. Culture of any community changes with the change of overall changes in the other cultures of world. Sikhi and Sikh culture are the two different things, in its purest form sikh culture should be suit to the Sikhi (Sikh philosophy) by Holly Gurus but Sikhi is a truth and it will always remain true and unchanged while culture goes under changes. We can not expect from a normal sikh to live with a complete harmony with Sikhi which was told by the Sikh and other sufi saints.Sikhi will always be live it can not die with time while culture can go down or die with time.
Thanks for your mail and view sharing.
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