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A Decision On The Razor's Edge

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>mÚ 2 ] </TD></TR><TR><TD>Second Mehl: </TD></TR><TR><TD>mehlaa 2. </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>bDw ctI jo Bry nw guxu nw aupkwru ] </TD></TR><TR><TD>Paying a fine under pressure, does not bring either merit or goodness. </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>syqI KusI svwrIAY nwnk kwrju swru ]3] </TD></TR><TR><TD>That alone is a good deed, O Guru Nanak, which is done by one`s own free will. ||3|| </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

S Pimpernel ji

imho You have found a tuk that is correctly applied in context for this discussion. Great food for thought! I would ask you to post a complete shabad, with Ang number, Gurmukhi and English, so that I do not have to do it for you.

A suggestion. Please use the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at http://srigranth.org when you copy and paste for two reasons. A clear Gurmukhi font supported by SPN server software is not at this time possible from many of the other sites and pdf files available online. Unicode font is desirable to reproduce a full shabad.

Do not use red font in your comments. This is admin's color. Thanks.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Thoughts on the thread. My own impression is that Spades ji is the perfect "devil's advocate." He is raising ALL the counter-arguments that are typical for this discussion, and has done so in a lucid way. That shakes the forum up, and keeps conversation from being the sort of discussion where mutual consent keeps things a dull as a board. The only danger, and we are not there yet, is that comments may become personal and issues will be ignored. There are some key ideas being presented by Harry ji and S Pimpernel ji and Mai ji and these are unique, relevant, interesting, and thought-provoking. We do not have to be in agreement to have a good discussion. By now it should be clear where I personally stand. But... what I like about this thread so far: all the ideas that surround the question of kesh are being presented in one place. More power to you.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
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May 31, 2011
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In the Self
spnadmin said:
imho You have found a tuk that is correctly applied in context for this discussion. Great food for thought! I would ask you to post a complete shabad, with Ang number, Gurmukhi and English,

Admin ji Sorry about the colour it was copy and paste-haste.It's not really a tuk, it's a shorter Shabad, our Second Guru's writings are shorter and I did not find it, it found me.Ang 787

Thoughts on the thread. My own impression is that Spades ji is the perfect "devil's advocate." He is raising ALL the counter-arguments that are typical for this discussion, and has done so in a lucid way.

I agree we need counter-arguements for dialectic reasoning to work properly,my view is that Kesh is like the icing on the cake it makes it stand out and is good special occasions,but the special ingredient in a Sikh is ofcourse Gurbani,without the cake who wants icing,if you say a Sikh is made up of combining the two , then you kind of infer that the Guru's word alone cannot complete one .That an individual could spend his life cultivating the core of a Sikh by holding his or her mind with Guru's word,but then still not be called a Sikh for their physical appearance is a sad state of affairs for the Sikh world.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
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May 31, 2011
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In the Self
Spades ji said:
I don't think I'm evil. That's just something I put in for a joke along with "Sith" & "C.R.E.A.M." I also don't think I'm a pirate just because I have the Jolly Roger as my flag.

Veera I have been misled,adherence is not a joke, I can't say much, but atleast mine is the truth.You have repaid with interest what you recieved,that is not what a Sikh does,he doesn't fight using words,that is not his tradition.He may try to instruct another with them.
Harry Ji's intention was partly to guide a younger chap,as this is SPN he may have assumed you are Sikh,( because the Jolly Roger is not a recognised religion yet).

If you think you are not evil,then you must think you have some good and if you recognise good then you have the basic intuition of any religious person.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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You will allow Mai to respond? When did she need your permission to reply to a post?

Also you do realize that I no longer associate myself with Sikhism? Therefore I have no desire to become a "warrior saint".



Why do I want to shave my head bald? It's just something I'm curious to try.



Where do I even start with this one?

1) I'm not a Sikh so I don't really hold a belief that hair is something that unites me with a "Creator".

2) You may also have the blood of thieves, hookers, and murderers flowing through your veins as well. You don't know what your distant ancestors did as a profession 400-500 years ago.

3) You are seriously selling yourself short if you think that the greatest thing to be proud is the fact that you just happened to be born to a Punjabi-Sikh family. If it is then that is kind of sad bro.



The arrogance is over 9000 here. So according to you only Amritdhari Sikhs can be seen as ADULTS? Then you try to diagnose me from your high horse?

The projection is also something to behold. You are the one that is clearly angry and throwing a temper tantrum in the form of text.



Projection can be a B.

----------------------------------------------------------------



I don't think I'm evil. That's just something I put in for a joke along with "Sith" & "C.R.E.A.M." I also don't think I'm a pirate just because I have the Jolly Roger as my flag.

Spadesji,

My post was possibly more blunt than it should have been due to the fact that reading your posts reminds me so much of the way I used to be in my twenties when I turned my back on my religion and background. SPji is very astute in his observations....

I on the other hand yearn to be a warrior saint.....

I also do not believe that hair unites us with the Creator, I believe that continued growing of hair is a stage that is reached when you value the wholeness and oneness of yourself, to grow hair itself in an effort to know more is futile, the hair is a sign, to love your hair is a level, like the stars on a general, it is a bit like a General asking why do I wear these stars, or a Captain thinking he can become a General just as he has the right stars.

I certainly have the blood of hookers, thieves and murderers flowing through my veins, and I have acted in consonance with these influences at certain times in my life, I have seem enough of women, drugs, corruption and eventual misery to last me a lifetime, I have immersed myself in a sea of filth for many many years thanks to that blood, it is only now I am getting to the good bits, connecting with the blood of the warriors and the saints, and I love it :) it gives me much more pleasure and peace than the alternatives.

I am proud to be from a punjabi sikh family, my wife is proud to be welsh, our history counts for a lot, people died so that I could freely read from the SGGS.

Out of the people mentioned, I only know for sure that Gyaniji is amritdhari, the others are people whom I find are further than me but on a similar path, I respect them and try and learn from them, but I am also learning from you, in fact, I can learn from anyone, for clarification, just because one has taken Amrit, does not mean one is enlightened, to me a TRUE Amritdhari is one that encapsulates the true qualities and essence of Gurbani, and for such people, I will admit they are role models to me.

I do not share SPji's ability to see the good in everything, my biggest problem is not so much basing my assumption on what you have written, but the way in which it has been written, I see a younger Harry, and, yes, I overreacted because of that.

Peace little brother, I have read your other posts, you are intelligent and articulate when you want to be, I hope you do not have to go through as much pain and misery as I had to, to be able write this

peacesign
 

Spades

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
32
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I also do not believe that hair unites us with the Creator, I believe that continued growing of hair is a stage that is reached when you value the wholeness and oneness of yourself, to grow hair itself in an effort to know more is futile, the hair is a sign, to love your hair is a level, like the stars on a general, it is a bit like a General asking why do I wear these stars, or a Captain thinking he can become a General just as he has the right stars.

Thanks for the clarification.

However the same train of thought still holds true. I am not a Sikh so I don't value hair in that kind of sense (or at all).

I certainly have the blood of hookers, thieves and murderers flowing through my veins, and I have acted in consonance with these influences at certain times in my life, I have seem enough of women, drugs, corruption and eventual misery to last me a lifetime, I have immersed myself in a sea of filth for many many years thanks to that blood, it is only now I am getting to the good bits, connecting with the blood of the warriors and the saints, and I love it :) it gives me much more pleasure and peace than the alternatives.

It wasn't your ancestors fault that you didn't make good decisions when you were younger. It was your fault.

Just like if I screw up. I don't blame my ancestors... I blame me.

Also don't assume that I am exactly like you were younger. I rarely drink and I don't do any drugs. You don't need heritage or religion to tell you not to do those kinds of things. It's called using self control and good judgement.

I am proud to be from a punjabi sikh family, my wife is proud to be welsh, our history counts for a lot, people died so that I could freely read from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Once again, just because my ancestors valued something dearly doesn't give me an obligation to value it.

For example, before your family became Sikhs they were either Muslims or Hindus most probably. Do you not think that these people at some point were told by someone from their old religions about how their ancestors fought for their faith?

I do not share SPji's ability to see the good in everything, my biggest problem is not so much basing my assumption on what you have written, but the way in which it has been written, I see a younger Harry, and, yes, I overreacted because of that.

Peace little brother, I have read your other posts, you are intelligent and articulate when you want to be, I hope you do not have to go through as much pain and misery as I had to, to be able write this

peacesign

It's cool bro. It's the internet so I think I will live.

---------------------------------------

Veera I have been misled,adherence is not a joke, I can't say much, but atleast mine is the truth.

Do you also adhere to you wife?

I'm guessing you just put that in there as a sort of nonchalant joke (like guys usually do). It's the same way that I did with my constantly changing adherence tags. I didn't really believe I was Darth Vader when I said that I was a Sith.

You have repaid with interest what you recieved,that is not what a Sikh does,he doesn't fight using words,that is not his tradition.He may try to instruct another with them.

Can you please clarify here.

Harry Ji's intention was partly to guide a younger chap,as this is SPN he may have assumed you are Sikh,( because the Jolly Roger is not a recognised religion yet).

The Jolly Roger is the flag I have (the pirate flag). I never said that it was a religion.

I know Harry was trying to play some sort of "big brother" role.

If you think you are not evil,then you must think you have some good and if you recognise good then you have the basic intuition of any religious person.

You don't need to religious to recognize that good exists.

Life isn't a Saturday Morning Superhero Cartoon.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
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Spadesji

You raise some interesting points, I feel maybe you should start a new thread so that we do not dilute this one.

I would be delighted to debate with you as I am sure brother spji would be, but we should really take this elsewhere,

I have started a thread, 'Do I have a duty to correct the sins of my fathers',
 
Aug 13, 2004
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http://thelangarhall.com/sikhi/sikh-identity-separate-but-equal/


Guest blogged by Birpal Kaur

Over this past weekend there was an article published in the Los Angeles Times of the experiences of Sikh women and maintaining kesh. This article addresses the journey and relationship with kesh, looking at societal pressures as well as a personal journey, and in this case, it happened to be my journey. The article idea was born out of a series of conversations I had with a reporter with the LA Times. I would also like to reiterate that this article is not about me as a representative of any Sikh organization I am part of.

Most of the feedback I have received has been complimentary, though some has been accusatory and judgmental. For all the commentary: Thank you for time, the words, and the emotions—whether I agree with it or not. My major concern, however, does not come from the extremely personal nature of the story you read, it comes from the fact that I felt misrepresented, and the issue highlighted was misrepresented. The last 48 hours or so I have been thinking about why, and that is what I would like to share.

My major concern is that the entire concept of hair removal is framed around men and marriage. This is problematic. Whereas the overall idea of double-standards concerning men and women is not a new one—I do not believe that there is only one person, or gender to blame. Perhaps it is what manifests as the topical problem, but the issues around hair removal and Sikh women are not, and should not be limited to this scope. My journey and struggles with my kesh seem to be conveniently minimized to be about men. The androcentric way that the issue of hair removal solely exists in a space with men and marriage is demeaning and incorrect as a reflection of my personal journey.

The outcome I am looking for is not about a Singh validating my kesh, my lifestyle, or my being. It is to bring the reality of influence decisions about kesh to the surface. Separating issues of hair and our Sikhi saroop into ‘categories’ according to biological sex only does a disservice to every one of us. My Sikhi has never been defined by my potential or future husband. My Sikhi is not something that can “break”. My relationship with my Guru is not about a man. This not to discredit, or overlook the fact that for some women, marriage can be a factor that influences their decision to keep their kesh, a decision that is filled with shades of gray. I know it has been that experience for others, which is what prompted me to bring the issue out from the shadows and into the public conversation.

The reason I wanted to share my journey, is to hopefully allow even one other Kaur something to relate to. Empowerment of being is two-fold, and this article was in no way supposed to put full blame on all men. There are most definitely those men that respect and support women for struggles, and at times insecurities, for the human value.

Women need to vocalize, search, and possibly explore more, and there is an individual ownership . However humans everywhere thrive off of support, love and understanding. I believe we need to openly encourage the types of relationships that give all of us equal opportunity and equity to recognize the divinity within us. Allowing the guru’s pyaar to permeate our beings—that is our goal. It is a goal that gurbani acknowledges comes in part through the love and soul connection with a life partner. It is something we can work on together, but only if we stop hiding behind double standards and expectations of defined beauty.

At a young age Sikh girls are put in the position to believe that our identity is different. Though this may be different depending on where we live, a number of Sikh boys have expressed the amount of support they get from the community to keep their kesh. A candid conversation I was having with a chota veer of mine brought out the statement that I felt started the right conversation. He said “[Boys] get talked to about their dhari’s every week, it might be overkill, but it is constantly discussed and supported as a community,” but that is how concerned out community is.

In my experience as a Sikh women who has stumbled on this journey of maintaining all her kesh I reflected on the bhenji’s, aunties, and more who come talk to me about a child, a sibling, a niece that is an adolescent girl, getting made fun of for her hairy legs, or perhaps a ‘mustache’. This young girl wanted to shave like her friends at school, or her friends at the gurdwara, she just wants a ‘clean’ face/eyebrows etc. The conversations around this part of her identity do not go nearly the same way as it does for a young man contemplating the same about his dhari.

The reality is that, like my story relayed in the article, some young girls start this hair removal process in secret, thinking naively that our parents will not find out. Girls: They know. Parents: we do not know that you know, it is your job to have those discussions with your children. Most of us grew up with enough privilege to have parents that paid enough attention to us to recognize something different in attitude, in our bodies, and our hearts. The problem, in my humble opinion, comes from several perspectives. Linking back to the statement from my chota veer, as a Punjabi Sikh community we do not have nearly enough discussions, role models, and space in which we provide support, love and guidance for our Sikh girls. It is these girls that turn into mothers, sisters, and partners.

Growing up, and often still, I have heard lectures and workshops given on how the “…Sikh Panth is in the hands of Sikh women.” The lectures usually revolve around the statements that include the following:

A Sikh girl must marry a sardar
A Sikh girl must make sure she makes the sardar boys around her feel confident and accepted with their dastaars and dharis
Because yes, as young Sikh girls, all there is to think about are boys and their confidence, their identity, and their plight for being different in society. It completely takes away the individual power of a Sikh adolescent as both Sikh girls are forced to uplift Sikh boys, and Sikh boys are forced to depend on these girls. Reinforcing the sentiment of basing one’s self esteem and sense of pride on the opinions of the opposite sex. This is not empowerment.

I firmly believe that Sikhi offers us a holistic approach to living a healthy life with mind, body, spirit, and heart. By not acknowledging Sikh women’s identity in the same communal spaces we acknowledge Sikh men’s issues, we inherently deliver the message of separate but equal. Bringing up Sikh women and hair is not in an effort to structure or even define every Sikh female’s identity. That is not my place to do so, nor would I want to. Instead, allow us to utilize our sangat to provide support and encourage each other. Let us acknowledge the struggle and plight for Sikh women and men with their identity.

Our gurus have given each individual the ability to recognize and act upon our sovereignty as humans. Sovereignty that once tapped into allows us to embody the power of chardi-kala. Sovereignty that gives us control and respect for our bodies, our minds, our hearts, and souls. This is a guru given gift. No one can ever take that away. But when we raise our youth to believe that members of the opposite sex hold all the power when it comes to our own self-acceptance, what are we really doing?

I’ve had this conversation so many times over the years. Over the years my own thoughts and opinions have changed. Over time my pyaar and connection to my guru has grown. My connections to my sangat have grown. My relationships and understanding has grown. I have grown, and will continue to—because of my guru. I am divine because of the divinity inside me. Period. That divinity does not get to be defined by a social contract, other relationships, or individuals in my life and not. It is not defined by marriage, or the pursuit of companionship. It has the potential to be enhanced by the right companion—but will not be limited to that scope. It is too powerful, it is too great.
 
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