A Discussion Of McLeod And The Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look

[Archived_Member4]

Here is a article that tells us about the protest against Pashaura Singh and then letters written by Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal in favor of Pashaura Singh appointment to a chair. Read the article first and then read the letters.

Sikhs to protest Pashaura Singh's appointment on Sep 26

28 September, 2008 - 17:15 — Balbir Singh
SAN JOSE:

Dr. Baljeet Sahi, an Altadena veterinarian and president of Sikhs for Preservation of Sikhism and Sikh Heritage, and scores of other Sikhs
will gather for a peaceful protest on the UC Riverside university's
grounds from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. Sept. 26 to underline the community's
anger at attempts by a scholar Pashaura Singh whose works challenge
the authenticity of Sikh scriptures.

Pashaura Singh's thesis and subsequent research are based on a manuscript that surfaced in 1987 that he believes is a draft of the 1,430-page document copiled by Guru Arjan. Singh says the so-called 1245 manuscript, part of the rare book collection at Guru Nanak Dev University, includes sections that are blank and others that have
been crossed out, showing evidence of having been edited.

Such an idea about the scriptures being edited or changed is blasphemous to most Sikhs and virtually negates the core belief that the revealed word of God is the revealed word.

Sahi holds the 1245 manuscript fraudulent and said it was obtained from a scrap dealer. He said it may have been written by one of the guru's rivals, who started a parallel tradition after he was denied a
guruship.

He said scholars like Pashaura Singh are trying to mix the words of non-gurus with gurus' words. There have been many protests against Pashaura Singh's appointment to the endowed chair for which the Sikh Foundation raised $500,000. The chair is in memory of late Dr. Jasbir Singh Saini, a Phoenix cardiologist.

Sikhs had protested even in 2005 about his appointment. At one stage, even Saini's widow, Saranjit Kaur Saini, had asked the former UCR
Chancellor France Cordova urging her to choose another Sikh scholar.
Incidentally, Pashaura Singh courted controversy even with his 1991 doctoral thesis at the University of Toronto which was immediately condemned and later he was indicted in 1994 by the Akal Takht, the Sikhs' highest temporal authority, for blasphemy..
http://www.worldsikhnews.com/24%20September%202008/Sikhs%20to%20protest%20Pashaura%20Singh%20appointment%20on%20Sep%2026.htm
Submitted by,
Balbir Singh
Palo Alto, California
__________________________________________________________
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Dear all,
I am pleased to announce that our member Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal
has taken lead to write directly to the Chancellor of the university
at Riverside in support of Pashura Singhs appointment. The Chancellor
has responded with gratitude. We will also be sending all the post
that appeared on SD in support to the University.

Copied Below exchange of posts between Dr. Greval and the Chancellor.

From: Timothy P. White To: virindergrewal@cablespeed.com Cc: Jessica
Darin ; ellen.wartella@ucr.edu ; stephen.cullenberg@ucr.edu ; Cynthia
Giorgio Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:57 AMSubject: Re: Dr.
Pashaura Singh
Dr. Grewal,

Thank you for sharing your informative thoughts...they are helpful to
us.
Sincerely,
Tim White
Chancellor

----- Original Message -----
From: Virinder S.Grewal M.D.,F.A.C.S. <virindergrewal@cablespeed.com>
To: timothy.white@ucr.edu <timothy.white@ucr.edu>
Sent: Wed Oct 01 12:44:54 2008
Subject: Dr. Pashaura Singh
The Sikh Studies Association of America Inc.
765 E. Sherwood Rd
Williamston, Michigan, 48895
Phone: (517) 655-4507
Virindergrewal@cablespeed.com
Dated; October 1, 2008
Chancellor Timothy P. White
Office of the Chancellor
University of California, Riverside
4108 Hinderaker Hall
900 University Avenue
Riverside, CA - 92521
USA
E-mail: timothy.white@ucr.edu
Ref: Dr. Pashaura Singh
Dear Chancellor White:
I am honored to write this letter on behalf of Dr. Pashaura Singh. I
would like to introduce myself to you. I am a retired Urologist and
Associate Professor of Surgery (Urology) from Michigan State
University (MSU). I am also President of ‘The Sikh Studies
Association of America’ and ‘The Sikh Gurudwara of Michigan’ since
its inception in 1978.

The Sikh Studies association has been involved in many Sikh programs.
One of these was establishing a Sikh Studies Endowed Chair at the
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. I took the initiative in 1984 and
was able to collect 1.2 million dollars, finally establishing the
Sikh Studies Chair at the University of Michigan.

I have known Dr. Singh from the last 25 years and was instrumental in
getting him at the University of Michigan in 1992. I am fully aware
of his accomplishments, research, teaching and other work in Sikh
theology. I am fully aware of his disputed thesis before it was
published. His research and writings about Sikh Faith are exceptional.
By the way I am equally aware of the individuals protesting against
him unreasonably and distastefully in an ignorant and egotistical
manner for their own publicity. I find their actions immature and
self-destructive in nature for the Sikh faith.

I am more knowledgeable about the Sikh Faith than these protestors,
whom I know personally and in no way their observations are even
close to the Sikh ethos of tolerance. Mostly, they are counter-
productive and self-destructive, acting like illiterates. They tried
the same tactics at the University of Michigan but their efforts
totally failed.

Dr. Singh’s practice of his faith and knowledge is closer to the
teachings of the Sikh Gurus than that of ignorant protestors. I am
enclosing a list of individuals from all over the United States of
America, who are members of the Sikh Studies Association and are with
me in recommending Dr. Pashaura Singh holding the Sikh Studies
Chair/Program at UC Riverside.

I will humbly suggest to you, Sir, please ignore the protestors as
they are ignorant and destructive to the cause of Sikh Studies as
well Sikh Faith. This challenge has to be dealt with human maturity
in a constructive way.

Should you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal, M.D., F.A.C.S
Retired Professor of Surgery at MSU
765 E Sherwood Rd,
Williamston, MI

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji

These are letters that a number of us have already read on the Gurmat Learning Zone.

One of them reports on the judgment of the authenticity of MS 1245 in conjunction with a protest of Dr. Pashuara Singh cleared of research misconduct at the University of California Riverside by the Chancellor after an investigation.

The other is already a widely circulated letter addressed to the Chancellor of UC Riverside by forum member vsgewal ji in which he questions the credentials of Dr. Pashaura Singh's critics and accusers.

Both of these were on the web early part of last week as they pertained specifically to Dr. Pashaura. I am not sure how they add or contribute to our understanding of specific questions discussion on this thread. The are really not about either Bir, nor about MS 1245 other than one man's personal opinion.

 

[Admin]

well, the only person who can dispel clouds over the whole controversy is Prof. Pashaura Singh ji himself would it be prudent if we could invite Prof Pashaura Singh ji to SPN and clear the doubts of the sangat about the whole episode, but only if he wishes...

 

[spnadmin]

I welcome the idea. Aman ji, this is probably the only forum so far that is taking the discussion the full length rather than dodging bullets. So Dr. Pashaura would bring a deeper understanding of the issues.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

These are letters that a number of us have already read on the Gurmat Learning Zone.

One of them reports on the judgment of the authenticity of MS 1245 in conjunction with a protest of Dr. Pashuara Singh cleared of research misconduct at the University of California Riverside by the Chancellor after an investigation.

The other is already a widely circulated letter addressed to the Chancellor of UC Riverside by forum member vsgewal ji in which he questions the credentials of Dr. Pashaura Singh's critics and accusers.

Both of these were on the web early part of last week as they pertained specifically to Dr. Pashaura. I am not sure how they add or contribute to our understanding of specific questions discussion on this thread. The are really not about either Bir, nor about MS 1245 other than one man's personal opinion.

Your shying away from what these letters actually mean. Let's see what the members here have to say and then I'll give my input on these letters. Hopefully a member doesn't purposely cause a contterversy here and then a mod steps in to close the thread.

 

[spnadmin]

Who knows what a mod will do? Follow the guidelines I hope. aad0002

 

[Archived_Member4]

Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal, I have some questions for you regarding the letters I presented in this thread. Are you willing and do you have the time to answer some questions about the letters you wrote to Tim White.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

No Sir, neither I want to discuss nor I have the time to talk about a third person on the forum. I respectfully deny your respect. I have closed this thread from my side. You do what ever you like.

Thanks for your participation.

Respectfully submitted

Virinder

 

[spnadmin]

Recent posts to this thread that are related to the 5 K's, rituals, symbols, Amrit and inner purity have been moved to a new thread entitled, Rituals, Symbols and Spiritual Cleansing at http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24516-rituals-symbols-and-spiritual-cleansing.html

Thank you: aad0002

 

[Archived_Member4]

No Sir, neither I want to discuss nor I have the time to talk about a third person on the forum. I respectfully deny your respect. I have closed this thread from my side. You do what ever you like.

Thanks for your participation.

Respectfully submitted

Virinder

it's not to discuss about a third person, by your relationship with Dr. Pashaura as you did know him for 25 years, you were a big part in getting him a job at University of Michigan in 1992, after he wrote his thesis in 1991, that was disrespectful to the Gurus and Sikhism, and you were fully aware of the thesis, and at the end all of this you say Dr. Pashaura, who was charged with 5 accounts of Blasphemy, has exceptional work!!!

What I am trying to understand is how can someone come to a conclusion that Dr. Pashaura has expectional research and writing on the Sikh Faith, when he clearly called the Fith and Fourth Guru distorters of Guru Nanak Dev jis Bani and also attacked Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's authenticity. And the most shocking part from all of this is, Dr. Pashaura wrote his thesis on basless observations.

What I mean is you wrote a letter in support of his appointment, you must have something to add here. No one just writes a letter in support of another without knowing what he has done in the past, and is able to trust the person.

As looking into this whole thing, I believe there is still information that the sangat doesn't know about, which is of great value and importances to the whole discussion of MS 1245 and if this information comes out some peoples reputation might be hanging on the cliff and it'll be unfavorable for them to completely disclose the whole matter for the sangat to see.

Well thats what I take from all this!

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji

Let's try to review what has happened with an unemotional and non-accusatory tone. I am sure that Dr. Grewal can speak for himself and I am not speaking for him. I am speaking right now as someone who is concerned that this thread retain a semblance of rational debate. :welcome:

it's not to discuss about a third person, by your relationship with Dr. Pashaura as you did know him for 25 years, you were a big part in getting him a job at University of Michigan in 1992, after he wrote his thesis in 1991,

You have already made the above point by posting Dr. Grewal's letter in a previous post. As Dr. Grewal himself posted this letter at another site (presumably you found the letter on the Internet) we can assume that he has nothing to hide or he would have already kept it from public view. Therefore, there is no way the letter or any part of it can be considered "evidence" of anything other that what it professes in black and white. The letter cannot be waived around like a red flag in other words.

that was disrespectful to the Gurus and Sikhism,

This is part of that letter:

I have known Dr. Singh from the last 25 years and was instrumental in
getting him at the University of Michigan in 1992. I am fully aware
of his accomplishments, research, teaching and other work in Sikh
theology. I am fully aware of his disputed thesis before it was
published. His research and writings about Sikh Faith are exceptional.
By the way I am equally aware of the individuals protesting against
him unreasonably and distastefully in an ignorant and egotistical
manner for their own publicity. I find their actions immature and
self-destructive in nature for the Sikh faith.

Not only was Dr. Grewal fully aware of the actions of Akaal Takht against Dr. Pashaura Singh at the time he wrote the letter; he was also fully aware that the matter had been resolved. Please refer to other documentation in earlier posts in this thread to ascertain this. So we can reasonably conclude from the above paragraph that Dr. Grewal is making a distinction between quality of scholarship and religious beliefs. When Dr. Pashaura apologized to the Jathedar at that time, he apologized as a Sikh.

and you were fully aware of the thesis, and at the end all of this you say Dr. Pashaura, who was charged with 5 accounts of Blasphemy, has exceptional work!!!

Exceptional work in the field of scriptural studies has virtually nothing to do with one's religious leanings and everything to do with one's ability to evaluate a variety of texts using the accepted methods of textual analysis available. If this were not the case, then Franciscan scholars who are Roman Catholic would have risked charges of heresy in their own religion by using available methods of textual analysis to evaluate Jewish scriptures as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. This never happened because Franciscans, Protestant scholars, Jewish scholars were all able to frame their debates and disagreements in terms of the quality of a scholar's methods rather than their religious beliefs.

For reasons that escape me those protesting Dr. Pashaura's scholarship have not yet grasped this point. Methods are methods, documents can be evaluated well or badly, religious beliefs are something else entirely.

What I am trying to understand is how can someone come to a conclusion that Dr. Pashaura has expectional research and writing on the Sikh Faith, So based on what I said above you should be able to answer your own question.

when he clearly called the Fith and Fourth Guru distorters of Guru Nanak Dev jis Bani

Anyone who has read the information on this thread will quickly conclude that your above statement is simply fatuous. However, forum member and mentor Pk70 ji has ably described the implications of some of the differences between Kartarpur Bir and Banno Bir as they relate to the Gurus' repudiation of ritual.

and also attacked Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's authenticity.

Also, not the case. The debate has never been about the authenticity of Sri Guru Granth, the Kartarpur Bir or the Banno Bir. The debate has been about the authenticity of MS 1245 and the extent to which it can be considered a document that is reliable for textual comparison of a very small number of texts in either Bir.


And the most shocking part from all of this is, Dr. Pashaura wrote his thesis on basless observations.

Dr. Pahsura did not write a thesis based on observations. He wrote a thesis based on analyses of texts. Analysis and observation are two different mental processes. Your claim that something (I don't know what you are referring to) is baseless needs to be backed up with evidence and logic -- which you have not done.

Every one on the Pashaura side of the equation, with the proper credentials to evaluate the texts under investigation, has already stated numerous times that more analysis is needed. No one has jumped to baseless conclusions (except perhaps some individuals in California).

What I mean is you wrote a letter in support of his appointment, you must have something to add here. No one just writes a letter in support of another without knowing what he has done in the past, and is able to trust the person.

Could it be, Singh ji, that Dr. Grewal has nothing to add beyond what he has already stated in the letter?

As looking into this whole thing, I believe there is still information that the sangat doesn't know about, which is of great value and importances to the whole discussion of MS 1245 and if this information comes out some peoples reputation might be hanging on the cliff and it'll be unfavorable for them to completely disclose the whole matter for the sangat to see.

This prediction of yours is unlikely. Of those individuals who have access to MS 1245, only a smaller number have the skills to read it in its old linguistic form and are conversant in the comparative texts to know what to do with what they read. These individuals take their work seriously and are not likely to hang from a cliff. They are more likely to leave us hanging until they are satisfied that they have reached a reasonable conclusion.

Well thats what I take from all this!

Singh ji -- if there is a conspiracy, it will be a long time before we find out who the real players are. Dr. Pashaura, Dr. McLeod, and other scholars are discussing these matters publicly, writing in journals, submitting their work to other scholars for criticism, and presenting their ideas to academic conferences -- putting it all out there in full view. Therefore, it is unlikely they are hiding anything, or doing anything dishonest. They have offered some hypotheses that others find objectionable. What we have witnessed is the exercise of academic freedom. Without academic freedom, individuals, for example Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake in 1600 for arguing that the sun was the center of the known universe and that the universe is infinite, would be persecuted.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

Let's try to review what has happened with an unemotional and non-accusatory tone. I am sure that Dr. Grewal can speak for himself and I am not speaking for him. I am speaking right now as someone who is concerned that this thread retain a semblance of rational debate. :welcome:



Singh ji -- if there is a conspiracy, it will be a long time before we find out who the real players are. Dr. Pashaura, Dr. McLeod, and other scholars are discussing these matters publicly, writing in journals, submiting their work to other scholars for criticism, and presenting their ideas to academic conferences -- putting it all out there in full view. Therefore, it is unlikely they are hiding anything, or doing anything dishonest. They have offered some hypotheses that others find objectionable. What we have witnessed is the exercise of academic freedom. Without academic freedom, individuals, for example Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake in 1600 for arguing that the sun was the center of the known universe and that the universe is infinite, would be persecuted.

That was my views and if you see it a different way that's fine. If I wanted to respond to your post I will, but that will only get me in trouble as you'll find somethings objectable. So im leave it up to the sangat to come up with there own conclusions as I have come with mine. If you find my conclusion baised then give me the right to speak freely and where Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal will answer my questions. which he has refused to do so, so far. If hes willing to answer my questions I can disclose further information and bring some light on this debate.

Thanks
Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji,

That was my views and if you see it a different way that's fine.

Good.

If I wanted to respond to your post I will, but that will only get me in trouble as you'll find somethings objectable.

Respond if you will, but debate issues not personalities.

So im leave it up to the sangat to come up with there own conclusions as I have come with mine.

This is what is supposed to happen in a forum. People come up with their own views and discuss them -- pro's con's agreement disagreement.

If you find my conclusion baised then give me the right to speak freely

You have been speaking freely. Only digressions have been moved from the thread.

and where Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal will answer my questions. which he has refused to do so, so far.

Just as everyone can speak if they so choose, same way a person does not have to respond to anything if they do not want to.

If hes willing to answer my questions I can disclose further information and bring some light on this debate.

Thanks
Singh

Warm regards
Antonia