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A Relationship With A Non-sikh: Any Advice

Randip Singh

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May 25, 2005
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Randip ji,

Hahah thrice in one day that may be a personal record for me.
What you speak of is a well known phanomonom. Always in every kind of cultural intergration I have seen through the years, the first generation stick mainly to their own cultural mores and lifstlye, the second generation have problems with their perants and move toward fuller intergration in their personal lives, and the thrid generation are more or less fully intergrated with what their grandparents may still see as a forign culture.

Problems abound for each and every culture that moves away from their own lands.

How do we counter this, how can we speed up such intergration so that these problems simply cease to be important? By rocking the boat, by offering what you would say is rash advice.

In all cultures individual freedom of expression trumps anything else, or does it?

NO

Totally disagree. This is a public forum, and we should not be giving kids stupid advice.

This forum has always given measured advice, rather than gungo ho "go for it" type advice.

The idea here is usually to sit back and think about actions, and not to be clouded by our senses and make rash decisions. If we do that we are no better than animals who are guided by the 5 thieves.
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
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London, UK
NO

Totally disagree. This is a public forum, and we should not be giving kids stupid advice.

This forum has always given measured advice, rather than gungo ho "go for it" type advice.

The idea here is usually to sit back and think about actions, and not to be clouded by our senses and make rash decisions. If we do that we are no better than animals who are guided by the 5 thieves.


Randip ji, Reading your message loud and clear my friend, i cannot agree but I understand your meaning.

Let me offer this up for your consideration then.

Back in my youth in the late 70's to mid 80's here in the UK, racial tensions were appaling. The very idea of a black man and a white woman, or a black woman with a white man, would bring all sorts of problems for them, from both sided of the family.

20 years later things are much, much better here. How has it become so?

Did we advise that mixed race couples not try to be happy for fear of problems? No sir we done the opposite, we made noise, we took to the streets we vioced loudly our opinions, and yes we had some years of trouble, but in the long run it has been worth it. We simply cannot wait around until bigoted people have changed their minds or have all died out(as we know bigots beget bigots) no we have to force the change.

We are animals sir, some of us exhibite more animal behaviour than others of us, and it is these people that we need to drag upwards with us, rather than let our thoughts go down towards their level.

Do what is right for you, in every case, the need of the individual is prime.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Actually I cannot think of a single society where individual expression trumps the collective will. Individual freedom is always conditional according to the shared interests and common needs for everyone else.

How much individual liberty versus how much social control is a theme that is always in play. The difference is how much one versus how much the other will be tolerated, and this is what varies from society to society, and from generation to generation.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
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May 25, 2005
2,935
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Randip ji, Reading your message loud and clear my friend, i cannot agree but I understand your meaning.

Let me offer this up for your consideration then.

Back in my youth in the late 70's to mid 80's here in the UK, racial tensions were appaling. The very idea of a black man and a white woman, or a black woman with a white man, would bring all sorts of problems for them, from both sided of the family.

20 years later things are much, much better here. How has it become so?

Did we advise that mixed race couples not try to be happy for fear of problems? No sir we done the opposite, we made noise, we took to the streets we vioced loudly our opinions, and yes we had some years of trouble, but in the long run it has been worth it. We simply cannot wait around until bigoted people have changed their minds or have all died out(as we know bigots beget bigots) no we have to force the change.

We are animals sir, some of us exhibite more animal behaviour than others of us, and it is these people that we need to drag upwards with us, rather than let our thoughts go down towards their level.

Do what is right for you, in every case, the need of the individual is prime.

Agree with you 100%, but I do not think we should ride rough shod over peoples beliefs and traditions.

If some one does not what to marry out of their religion, caste, colour whatever we should respect that too.

This last statement I cannot believe I am saying, because I got married out of caste, but I say this after speaking to people on the other side of the fence and seeing their view, Some minority groups do not want to marry "out" because they want to preserve their traditions and values. I can relate to that (even though I don't agree).

In this respect, I can understand why we should not only believe in Equality but Diversity!
 

stacia

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
15
28
Preservation of traditions, culture, language ..... Excellent point. I am a firm believer that we should all preserve our heritage as best we can. I also absolutely agree that we need to respect other people's choices. And I am certainly not arrogant enough to believe that I know everything but ..... Relationships between people of different backgrounds don't have to be a threat to all of that, perhaps it could be looked at as an opportunity to "share" traditions, ideologies and culture with a broader group (the other person's family and friends) and to learn something new yourself. I know that obviously that would not always be the case but neither is it ALWAYS that an "outsider" will "water down" another group's heritage by joining the two.
Unfortunately, it's often the case these days (in the West at least) that even when a couple share a common ethnic background, they don't teach their children their heritage, culture or even language and it can become lost ..... Instead of a culturally diverse country we are becoming simply multi-shaded Brit-spawn. Before I get too verbose (*blush* oops) I will, in summation say, that I don't believe it's ONLY mixing of bloods that causes loss of heritage.
 

ik-jivan

SPNer
May 3, 2010
68
108
Lee ji,
First, thank you for expressing such provocative thoughts. We need to think and come to consensus about such things and that means we need to communicate about them.
You ask, ‘How do we counter this, how can we speed up such integration so that these problems simply cease to be important? By rocking the boat, by offering what you would say is rash advice.’

From my perspective – and I do mean this space and this time I occupy and observe from – I perceive the ‘emergence of convergence’ already. We are integrating now and however long the process of integration takes is exactly how long Ik Onkar designed and determines it should take. Thank God that the All-Knowing God is managing this process! It means we are liberated from having to force others to get enlightened.
Sure, we all look like a bunch of slam-dancing egos and it would be so much more graceful and elegant if we would all just learn ballet, but let’s face it, the puffed up chests of egos need to go home feeling a little crushed and sore from clashing encounters before they aspire to a better way.

We don’t need to participate in the fray and really shouldn’t until we have achieve self-discipline and can confront injustice with saintly equipoise. By this, I don’t mean go practice and come back in 10 years. Instead, I mean take a few hours or days to meditate and understand the situation and return to it as soon as you can with the best and most appropriate approach.

Finding and adhering to the fundamental root and core of the Universal truths and doing our best to ensure that loving kindness and selfless service to the Will and Command are always the impetus behind what we do and say and the way we live, will likely aid integration better than aiming to rock boats without contemplated purpose.

Sometimes – rather than rocking the boat – when we feel the need to do something to redirect it, it is better to lean upon the ones who seem to be causing it to veer off course, gently prodding their conscience to consider why they think, believe and act the way they do. At times, just making it known that their actions are acknowledged with a simple question or two is enough. Slowly dipping the oar into the waters of another’s consciousness changes direction without raising debate or conflict. Subtlety can work wonders.

Feeling repelled by conflict is instinctive. Feeling compelled to venture into conflict calls for self-analysis to determine if it is ego or Divine Will governing the motivation. Making the distinction is critical. Ego will never be supported by the Divine and the conflict will likely not result in mutually agreeable terms, nor ongoing harmonious relationship. With Divine support and in fact hukam orders, even a clumsy Dodo bird would be successful in achieving harmony from even the most intense conflict. Ahhh, I have witnessed this, that’s for sure! Hahaha! (Note the qualities and fate of the Dodo bird.)

You wrote, ‘In all cultures individual freedom of expression trumps anything else, or does it?’ Not all cultures. Anything that has a duality of potentiality, and individual freedom of expression, definitely does, is not a Universal truth. For instance, we don’t want murderers, paedophiles or extortionists to think that what they do is right because it is expression of individual freedom, correct? On the other hand, unconditional love doesn’t have a downside and is a non-dual Universal truth.

I do believe that expression and equality of diversity within creation is a Universal truth, but we are a long, long way from the innocence and purity that would permit such without distortion and aberration. We’re neurotic and psychotic, as a species because individual freedom of expression has been suppressed and repressed for such a long time. We’ll have to correct the psychological and social diseases before we can fling open the doors and declare freedom. Through integration, we are definitely doing that, but we need to retain clear and conscious intent.

Sat Sri Akal,
ikonkaar
 

Sevadar

SPNer
May 24, 2010
12
23
I have only one thing to say to you. This society is evolving with lots of factors that were constant an age ago and they are now variables. The immigration, women's liberation, wider interaction of two genders at different levels, cultural values: all these factors were more or less were constant or negligible. But in todays world they are changing and having greater impact. Society is trying to find some kind of normal because everybody likes normal no one likes chaos. To get to that normal its going to take time how much I don't know. We have to make some of these factors constant again to make all this chaos settle or we should just accept the all the chaos as normal and carry on and that will be our societies normal then.
One thing I would definitely like to ask to all the people who go ahead and get involved in interfaith love marriages is that they stretch their boundaries when they choose their partners, in saying that I mean they like to choose their partner without any prethought to what the society will think about their choice, that means they don't care about societies or family approval at that time. They reserve that right to themselves. But when it comes to marriage they want all the approvals. If someone have to approve someone then they will judge them by their on standards. then the questions arises that Did you looked into all the approval standards before you present someone for their approval. If not then why do you expect that it shd be approved the way you want it. If you don't care for approval then don't bother go head and do what you want to do but don't expect that everyone shd like the way you want it. To every action their is reaction thats universal law.
All the above written nonsense is purely of social importance nothing to do with spirituality. God didn't made us Sikh, Christian or anything else. we all are human.

apologises if you find it offending or harsh anyway..
 

ik-jivan

SPNer
May 3, 2010
68
108
Sevadar ji,
Firstly, no need for apologies. Your expression is not inappropriate. : )
I think if we consider the perceived chaos of our times to be the ‘work in progress’ of the Divine’s creative project, we can maintain a positive outlook – Chardi Kala! – remembering that everything is the doing of the One Universal Creator Being and we are, knowingly or unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly, fulfilling His Hukam Orders and Commands. Who among us creatures knows better than the Creator? Life is an evolutionary process. It will never be tidy or perfect until the process is complete. So, I guess we do have to adjust and accept the ‘new normal’ until the reordering of chaos phase passes.

You make an interesting point about going against the grain of society and then turning back to it for approval. What do you suppose causes people to venture out beyond social boundaries and then return to it with some new condition for it to accept? I tend to think they are moved by the urge to integrate the diversity of creation, although to those involved, it may only seem like a desire for something different from what is already common within their socio-cultural sphere.

However, it is apparent that within the socio-cultural sphere that does not accept and allow the integration of the new condition, there is stronger integrity of the culture. There are pros and cons to social integration of peoples. Both sides of this coin are valuable to the whole.

Relating specifically to interfaith and not merely ethnic diversity in marriage, I do feel there is cause for concern. Without very deep devotion to the One Universal Creator God, ones practice can lose importance when family and community have different or no practices. Yet, I witness this happening within Sikh-Sikh marriages when they migrate to non-Sikh lands. So, if even a Sikh-Sikh marriage faces risks of religious deterioration, due to changes in community, the problem isn’t so much the change of environment as it is the degree of devotion of the individual. As I’ve asked on a similar thread, ‘Do you think that if Bullah Shah and Mother Teresa of Avila were to have wed they would have disputed over their devotional practices?’

Ahhh, I sense your frustration when you say, ‘All the above written nonsense is purely of social importance nothing to do with spirituality. God didn't made us Sikh, Christian or anything else. we all are human.’ Yet, I do think these social questions have to be discussed and we do need to come to consensus and share insight with those who are unsure. At times an individual within the petty dramas of life can’t see the forest for the trees. . . which is to say that the obvious answer isn’t obvious because they have emotions and other interests invested in the matter. Wouldn’t you agree that communicating for the sake of helping our brothers and sisters figure out these issues and then move on to more important ones is a spiritual matter?

Sat Sri Akal,
t
 

Lee

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May 17, 2005
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London, UK
Actually I cannot think of a single society where individual expression trumps the collective will. Individual freedom is always conditional according to the shared interests and common needs for everyone else.

How much individual liberty versus how much social control is a theme that is always in play. The difference is how much one versus how much the other will be tolerated, and this is what varies from society to society, and from generation to generation.


Narayanjot ji,

Yes sadly this is the reality of the situation, it should be the other way around. Other here in the UK we have had serioues of programs, the last one being aired last night, on what I would certianly call an enlightend religous view.

That of the Amish teenagers. They have this idea where by they allow their teenagers to leave the community and go out into the wider world to see and participate in things that otherwise their religous creed would not permit. This takes place prior to becoming baptised into whatever Armish church your family belongs to.

The right of the individual to choose their own path, even if that path leads away from religoin or culture. Obvoiusly within the framework of the law of the land.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Lee ji

The Amish have a certain cache that draws interest and also tourism to their villages. The attraction of a culture that lives in the purity of a time gone by. This is pure fiction. Because the Amish live in a closed culture very little is out there to disabuse people of the idea that they have somehow managed to retain the virtues of a simple time and a simple world. IMHO they are used as symbol of what is good about traditional and what is wrong with the modern. Ah Yes, the good old days.

Here are some facts that are rarely known unless you live in the same area where Amish are found in large numbers. Education is a low priority. This results from their adherence to methods of traditional farming, using equipment from the 19th century, all horse and cattle drawn. Children need to be available from late spring to late autumn to work family owned farms. Children go to special Amish schools where the semesters are short and built around the growing season. The curriculum still teaches only what is consistent with Amish beliefs, for example the earth is flat. No ideas that challenge the 17th Century world view penetrate.

Drug addiction among Amish teenagers is a worrisome trend. Teenage pregnancy is also high and of course in a traditional culture that leads to shotgun weddings - hence early marriages and early pregnancies. A surprising incidence of incest and family rape is known to occur. Women can die young from too many pregnancies and a life of nothing but hard work on farms. The husband who remarries can end up with sons from a first marriage who sexually abuse daughters born in the second marriage - one documented type of incest. This has been the subject of at least one documentary of the past few years.

Everything is hushed up in the name of protecting the "honor" of a closed community which is closed because it closes itself off from influences of the modern world, scrutiny, and the intrusions of education.

The idea of letting teenagers run wild before being baptized into the Amish faith is more a matter of letting it all hang out. They are a perfect example of what I am not talking about. I am talking about teaching kids to make rational choices
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
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London, UK
Agree with you 100%, but I do not think we should ride rough shod over peoples beliefs and traditions.

If some one does not what to marry out of their religion, caste, colour whatever we should respect that too.

This last statement I cannot believe I am saying, because I got married out of caste, but I say this after speaking to people on the other side of the fence and seeing their view, Some minority groups do not want to marry "out" because they want to preserve their traditions and values. I can relate to that (even though I don't agree).

In this respect, I can understand why we should not only believe in Equality but Diversity!

Randip ji,

I agree with you sir 100%, we should all be mindfull of cultural mores and what not, and although at times it may seem that I myself do not, I can assure you that since my becomeing a Sikh who just happens to be gora also, I have tried my uttermost to be mindfull.

Yes people can certianly live their indivual lives how they wish(in line with the law) I certianly agree with this, and that includes the seemingly preposterous, yet even then I am as free to say 'That is preposterus' if that is my desire.

Indeed I think it the duty of any Sikh to declare this idea of Sikhs marrying within their caste as not Sikh at all.
As to Sikhs marrying outside of their faith, well I see nowt wrong with that, however as Narayanjot points out, our rehat may not agree with my personal sentimants.
 

findingmyway

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Aug 17, 2010
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Dear Chris,
I don't think the situation you are in is an easy one and no general rules will help you. Each case is individual and you should be discussing these issues with your partner in depth.

Indian marriages are between 2 families, not 2 individuals. There will always be disappointment as the 2 families won't be able to interact as they would have envisaged. Being from a different background, the family will worry that their daughter will become estranged as your culture does not have the same ideas. They will also perceive that you don't understand them, your life view will be different. You will always be the outsider so be prepared for this as it can create a feeling of resentment later on if not (I've seen this with my friends). Even if the immediate family accept you, you will still be an outsider in the community. Can you accept this? You will have a lot to learn, some of which won't make sense to you, about a very foreign culture.

You both need to discuss your religious beliefs very carefully. How compatible are they? What are the practical problems? Particular with regards to kids. The idea of teaching kids both is very good in theory but doesn't always seem to work that way. Quite often kids see the surface of 2 opposing views and therefore don't really learn anything at all-they are v confused beings! Practically how will it work? Will you or the kids abstain from alcohol? Will the hair remain uncut? Will you speak Panjabi in the house? Will you teach from 2 religious texts? What happens when the messages aren't compatible with each other? How much will you participate in community events? Will the kids learn any hymns from either side? Will you go to India? etc etc Think over these things and make sure you are both on the same page.

I have seen mixed relationships work but more often I see them fall apart. Discuss things thoroughly with your partner and make sure you both know what's ahead and that you are on the same page otherwise down the track there will be problems. You've made a good start but communication with your partner & between the families is the key. I wish you both the best
 
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