Archived_member14
SPNer
CuriousCour,
You wrote:
I know its a general standard to marry within the community.
Cf: I was not really addressing this. The responsibility we have is not towards the community, but to one’s own parents.
===
Curious:
I also know its down to the individual whether they follow or divert from that standard.I wanted to know how many sikhs have carried out the latter.
Cf: Sorry about that. I missed the original intent and went on to address other issues.
===
Curious:
'The motives behind it all'?Sorry i can't make clear of what your saying.
Cf: In the end it is our own power of discernment which guides us. Until then however, we are moved all the time by desire and seek to justify these desires including in moral matters. But there are moral laws and conventional rules which reflect these laws, this can guide us away from continually flowing along the stream of desire.
===
Curious:
I agree theres a difference between stating and doing.For hundreds of years idealistic attitudes have been shared among many.Hasn't there been plenty of time for practical applicaion to be applied?
Cf: Well, being practical would include accepting one’s limitations and failings isn’t it?
===
Curious:
Ok i agree under some conditions its harder to follow some rules.In religion though it is expected that rules be applied.Your saying its not hypocritical but because of social considerations?
Cf: Not social considerations, but the overwhelming tendency to ignorance and craving which we all have. This doesn’t go away simply because we accept in principle, the values suggested by religion. Indeed we usually end up replacing one kind of evil with another when due to lack of understanding; we force those values upon ourselves and other people.
===
Curious:
So would you agree that social considerations have took precedence over religious principles?
Cf: Social rules must rightly reflect religious values, otherwise they are useless.
===
Curious:
I disagree any hardheaded son or daughter would be with and marry who they want regardless of parents consent.
The parents to be happy would no doubt be the favourable alternative.But if the parents are happy or not there not the ones who will be in the relationship.
Cf: I mentioned kindness which is a quality of mind more appropriately referred to as ‘loving-kindness’. It is this which we would all do well to encourage in our relationship with anyone, instead of the attachments which often comes under the label ‘love’. With loving-kindness, it does not matter then whether we are married or not and if so, to whom. If on the other hand we are fooled by the label ‘love’ when in reality it is attachment that we express, the situation is in fact all about ‘me’ and ‘mine’. And here as you know, no good is ever done to oneself or to the other person.
===
Curious:
So are you saying because we owe them we should live as they want us to? Not to engage in anything thats against their desire even if its unintentional.
Cf: I was trying to encourage kindness which I consider to be the best guide to action. We do owe a great debt to our parents and it is imperative that we show respect and kindness towards them if not anyone else. We do not have to adopt their values, especially if they are not so moral. But we can do what they want us to do while maintaining our own sense of value. Only this must include kindness and the wisdom which has confidence in this and other good qualities.
===
Curious:
No one is encouraging aversion on purpose.
Cf: Which is why some degree of understanding is needed as well. But of course, this would mean that if we fail, that’s aright too, only let’s not deny that we’ve done wrong.
===
Curious:
Is a son/daughter doing a bad deed because their happy?
Cf: As an argument this is wrong isn’t it? In terms of the particular view which it could come from, I think this is a very dangerous position to hold. I realize that you do not think this way, but the danger of going wrong still lurks, so allow me to just say this:
If happiness is the deciding factor for any decisions made and actions taken, this would most definitely lead to immorality. Besides, is the kind of attitude encouraging of goodwill towards other people? I don’t think so. What about sympathy? If we want to be happy, do we not think that others want to be happy too?
===
Curious:
Attachment has nothing to do with love. Attachment makes you anxious of becoming detached and brings about disorder of your wellbeing. When your attached you feel incomplete and have desire to extract feeling out of the other person to keep going. Your dependent on them. Thats not the nature of love.
Cf: Right on!
Do you however realize that the moment we wake up in the morning, attachment arises towards an object of the senses and proliferates on from one thought to the next, and this process goes on all day till the time that we go to sleep again?
There are many levels and shades of attachment, and from time to time we may notice the grosser ones. One manifestation of attachment which in fact requires wisdom to see, is what is called ‘cheating states’. These are unwanted states which are easily mistaken for good, giving the impression that we are on the right track but is in fact an attempt at glorifying the ‘self’. So we need to be careful whenever we come to a positive conclusion about our own attitudes and states of mind.
===
Curious:
Your confusing the two. When your seeking to be made happy thats attachment. You have to be happy within yourself to love.
I had nothing nothing but kindness towards my ex's parents. I was all for meeting them.
Cf: Only you would know what the reality is. My suggestions were aimed at a situation in which you were ignorant about your real motives and in fact going on to mistakenly think that they were good. But I’m happy to be proven wrong.
===
Curious:
I know everyones not perfect and so do you. Yet you've just judge me yourself by saying i didn't show kindness :S
Cf: It did seem like you were pointing a finger at them. But like I said, I’m happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, in the end it should not matter if I’m on or off the mark in terms of what went on. The information I provide is about what is right and what is wrong which I believe we all cannot be reminded enough about. And my rebukes are only meant to create an effect. ;-)
You wrote:
I know its a general standard to marry within the community.
Cf: I was not really addressing this. The responsibility we have is not towards the community, but to one’s own parents.
===
Curious:
I also know its down to the individual whether they follow or divert from that standard.I wanted to know how many sikhs have carried out the latter.
Cf: Sorry about that. I missed the original intent and went on to address other issues.
===
Curious:
'The motives behind it all'?Sorry i can't make clear of what your saying.
Cf: In the end it is our own power of discernment which guides us. Until then however, we are moved all the time by desire and seek to justify these desires including in moral matters. But there are moral laws and conventional rules which reflect these laws, this can guide us away from continually flowing along the stream of desire.
===
Curious:
I agree theres a difference between stating and doing.For hundreds of years idealistic attitudes have been shared among many.Hasn't there been plenty of time for practical applicaion to be applied?
Cf: Well, being practical would include accepting one’s limitations and failings isn’t it?
===
Curious:
Ok i agree under some conditions its harder to follow some rules.In religion though it is expected that rules be applied.Your saying its not hypocritical but because of social considerations?
Cf: Not social considerations, but the overwhelming tendency to ignorance and craving which we all have. This doesn’t go away simply because we accept in principle, the values suggested by religion. Indeed we usually end up replacing one kind of evil with another when due to lack of understanding; we force those values upon ourselves and other people.
===
Curious:
So would you agree that social considerations have took precedence over religious principles?
Cf: Social rules must rightly reflect religious values, otherwise they are useless.
===
Curious:
I disagree any hardheaded son or daughter would be with and marry who they want regardless of parents consent.
The parents to be happy would no doubt be the favourable alternative.But if the parents are happy or not there not the ones who will be in the relationship.
Cf: I mentioned kindness which is a quality of mind more appropriately referred to as ‘loving-kindness’. It is this which we would all do well to encourage in our relationship with anyone, instead of the attachments which often comes under the label ‘love’. With loving-kindness, it does not matter then whether we are married or not and if so, to whom. If on the other hand we are fooled by the label ‘love’ when in reality it is attachment that we express, the situation is in fact all about ‘me’ and ‘mine’. And here as you know, no good is ever done to oneself or to the other person.
===
Curious:
So are you saying because we owe them we should live as they want us to? Not to engage in anything thats against their desire even if its unintentional.
Cf: I was trying to encourage kindness which I consider to be the best guide to action. We do owe a great debt to our parents and it is imperative that we show respect and kindness towards them if not anyone else. We do not have to adopt their values, especially if they are not so moral. But we can do what they want us to do while maintaining our own sense of value. Only this must include kindness and the wisdom which has confidence in this and other good qualities.
===
Curious:
No one is encouraging aversion on purpose.
Cf: Which is why some degree of understanding is needed as well. But of course, this would mean that if we fail, that’s aright too, only let’s not deny that we’ve done wrong.
===
Curious:
Is a son/daughter doing a bad deed because their happy?
Cf: As an argument this is wrong isn’t it? In terms of the particular view which it could come from, I think this is a very dangerous position to hold. I realize that you do not think this way, but the danger of going wrong still lurks, so allow me to just say this:
If happiness is the deciding factor for any decisions made and actions taken, this would most definitely lead to immorality. Besides, is the kind of attitude encouraging of goodwill towards other people? I don’t think so. What about sympathy? If we want to be happy, do we not think that others want to be happy too?
===
Curious:
Attachment has nothing to do with love. Attachment makes you anxious of becoming detached and brings about disorder of your wellbeing. When your attached you feel incomplete and have desire to extract feeling out of the other person to keep going. Your dependent on them. Thats not the nature of love.
Cf: Right on!
Do you however realize that the moment we wake up in the morning, attachment arises towards an object of the senses and proliferates on from one thought to the next, and this process goes on all day till the time that we go to sleep again?
There are many levels and shades of attachment, and from time to time we may notice the grosser ones. One manifestation of attachment which in fact requires wisdom to see, is what is called ‘cheating states’. These are unwanted states which are easily mistaken for good, giving the impression that we are on the right track but is in fact an attempt at glorifying the ‘self’. So we need to be careful whenever we come to a positive conclusion about our own attitudes and states of mind.
===
Curious:
Your confusing the two. When your seeking to be made happy thats attachment. You have to be happy within yourself to love.
I had nothing nothing but kindness towards my ex's parents. I was all for meeting them.
Cf: Only you would know what the reality is. My suggestions were aimed at a situation in which you were ignorant about your real motives and in fact going on to mistakenly think that they were good. But I’m happy to be proven wrong.
===
Curious:
I know everyones not perfect and so do you. Yet you've just judge me yourself by saying i didn't show kindness :S
Cf: It did seem like you were pointing a finger at them. But like I said, I’m happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, in the end it should not matter if I’m on or off the mark in terms of what went on. The information I provide is about what is right and what is wrong which I believe we all cannot be reminded enough about. And my rebukes are only meant to create an effect. ;-)
.Afterall i wouldn't be here if my white mother and black father didn't venture into uncharted waters.Strength is in numbers!
