Christianity Allah And Parbrahm Are One And The Same

[pk70]

And these words of Guruji are not consistent with the Muslim view of God. So it is important to distinguish Guruji's message from the Quanic message because Guruji is kuraan kathaeb thae paak. Humble apologies.( quote aad ji )

Aad ji

Thanks for quoting the complete Guru Shabad, if we look it closely, first Guru ji is describing his concept of the Lord in the Shabad, he then says further that the Lord is more pure than ever expressed by others. This concept becomes clear to those whose doubts are shattered by the Guru. Here is the point, when those doubts about Him are eliminated by Guru, regardless the Names He is addressed by others, He is the same one super power.His devotees consider Allah the same. Obviously Guru Followers must understand that He is also addressed by others as Allah, if concept of God in Islam is different, that doesn’t change entity of the same inaccessible and immaculate Lord for Sikhs. Here His Name used by different faith is addressed not the concept as it was dealt in the earlier part of the Shabad( up to line 4),
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥ Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
Nanak says whose doubts are shattered by the Guru, for them, whom people address Allah and Parbraham, is the same Creator

Doubtless concept of Guru ji is obviously different than of Islamic concept as it is depicted in this very Guru Shabad too

 

[spnadmin]

"Here is the point, when those doubts about Him are eliminated by Guru, regardless the Names He is addressed by others, He is the same one super power.His devotees consider Allah the same. Obviously Guru Followers must understand that He is also addressed by others as Allah, if concept of God in Islam is different, that doesn’t change entity of the same inaccessible and immaculate Lord for Sikhs." (by pk70 ji)

pk70 veer ji

That explanation works for me.That is Guruji's word. Here is the point, when those doubts about Him are eliminated by Guru, regardless the Names He is addressed by others, He is the same one super power. But what I am also saying is that it is not the Quranic understanding.

 

[Astroboy]

Aad Ji,

Page 897, Line 6
ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
एको अलहु पारब्रहम ॥५॥३४॥४५॥
Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

I don't agree with this translation. The translator added a lot of his own thinking and probably thought he was clearing things up. But the translation is not helpful, and may in fact reflect a bias of the translator.

Your explanation regarding the translation did cross my mind too.
But each time I try to have a firm position on what is the true meaning, it changes again. It's like a message being conveyed to me that there can be no definite meaning. Is this due to the effects in duality consciousness ?

 

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji,

It could be that there are several layers to the same meaning. Not several meanings.

 

[Astroboy]

How many times do you see the word Parbrahm appear in this shabad ?:

ਪੰਨਾ 70, ਸਤਰ 6
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਅਤਿ ਬਣੈ ਢੋਈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥
जा कउ मुसकलु अति बणै ढोई कोइ न देइ ॥
Jā ka▫o muskal aṯ baṇai dẖo▫ī ko▫e na ḏe▫e.
When you are confronted with terrible hardships, and no one offers you any support,
ਮਃ 5 - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Singh, AAd and Gyaani Jarnail Singh,

You appear to have an agenda to confuse people. Just for a minute cast off your lunatic tendencies and bury you egos and compare the two posts below. If you have grace of God you will see that both posts sing the same tune. I would here offer my heartiest appreciation to brother aku to clear this matter. .

Let me get this right I am a lunatic? :crazy:

Then pray tell me what is a person who claims to know one of the Guru's personally and has actual conversations with him then? Is this not what you claim?

I hate getting personal, as I discuss the topic and not the person, however, your bully boy tactics do not work on me.

You have been proved wrong by me on several occaision on your translations and your "knowledge" of Sikhi and that maybe why you resort to cheapshots. Well my friend they will not work on me, so I suggest you stop the personal remarks before you leave the forum with embaressment as you did before.

Regards

 

[Randip Singh]

page 483

ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਸੁਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
रोजा धरै मनावै अलहु सुआदति जीअ संघारै ॥
Rojā ḏẖarai manāvai alhu su▫āḏaṯ jī▫a sangẖārai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
आपा देखि अवर नही देखै काहे कउ झख मारै ॥१॥
Āpā ḏekẖ avar nahī ḏekẖai kāhe ka▫o jẖakẖ mārai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੋਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਨ ਦੇਖੈ ॥
काजी साहिबु एकु तोही महि तेरा सोचि बिचारि न देखै ॥
Kājī sāhib ek ṯohī mėh ṯerā socẖ bicẖār na ḏekẖai.
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.

ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
खबरि न करहि दीन के बउरे ता ते जनमु अलेखै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kẖabar na karahi ḏīn ke ba▫ure ṯā ṯe janam alekẖai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
साचु कतेब बखानै अलहु नारि पुरखु नही कोई ॥
Sācẖ kaṯeb bakẖānai alhu nār purakẖ nahī ko▫ī.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਪਢੇ ਗੁਨੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
पढे गुने नाही कछु बउरे जउ दिल महि खबरि न होई ॥२॥
Padẖe gune nāhī kacẖẖ ba▫ure ja▫o ḏil mėh kẖabar na ho▫ī. ||2||
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart. ||2||

ਅਲਹੁ ਗੈਬੁ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥
अलहु गैबु सगल घट भीतरि हिरदै लेहु बिचारी ॥
Alhu gaib sagal gẖat bẖīṯar hirḏai leho bicẖārī.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
हिंदू तुरक दुहूं महि एकै कहै कबीर पुकारी ॥३॥७॥२९॥
Hinḏū ṯurak duhū▫aʼn mėh ekai kahai Kabīr pukārī. ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||

page 897

ਓ*ੁਂ ਨਮੋ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥
ओं नमो भगवंत गुसाई ॥
Oʼn namo bẖagvanṯ gusā▫ī.
I humbly pray to invoke the Universal Lord God, the Lord of the World.

ਖਾਲਕੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
खालकु रवि रहिआ सरब ठाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kẖālak rav rahi▫ā sarab ṯẖā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Creator Lord is all-pervading, everywhere. ||1||Pause||

ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਮਾਧੋ ॥
जगंनाथ जगजीवन माधो ॥
Jagannāth jagjīvan māḏẖo.
He is the Lord of the Universe, the Life of the World.

ਭਉ ਭੰਜਨ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਹਿ ਅਰਾਧੋ ॥
भउ भंजन रिद माहि अराधो ॥
Bẖa▫o bẖanjan riḏ māhi arāḏẖo.
Within your heart, worship and adore the Destroyer of fear.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗਵਿੰਦ ॥
रिखीकेस गोपाल गोविंद ॥
Rikẖīkes gopāl govinḏ.
The Master Rishi of the senses, Lord of the World, Lord of the Universe.

ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਮੁਕੰਦ ॥੨॥
पूरन सरबत्र मुकंद ॥२॥
Pūran sarbaṯar mukanḏ. ||2||
He is perfect, ever-present everywhere, the Liberator. ||2||

ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਉਲਾ ਤੂਹੀ ਏਕ ॥
मिहरवान मउला तूही एक ॥
Miharvān ma▫ulā ṯūhī ek.
You are the One and only merciful Master,

ਪੀਰ ਪੈਕਾਂਬਰ ਸੇਖ ॥
पीर पैकांबर सेख ॥
Pīr paikāʼnbar sekẖ.
spiritual teacher, prophet, religious teacher.

ਦਿਲਾ ਕਾ ਮਾਲਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਹਾਕੁ ॥
दिला का मालकु करे हाकु ॥
Ḏilā kā mālak kare hāk.
Master of hearts, Dispenser of justice,

ਕੁਰਾਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਤੇ ਪਾਕੁ ॥੩॥
कुरान कतेब ते पाकु ॥३॥
Kurān kaṯeb ṯe pāk. ||3||
more sacred than the Koran and the Bible. ||3||

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਨਰਹਰ ਦਇਆਲ ॥
नाराइण नरहर दइआल ॥
Nārā▫iṇ narhar ḏa▫i▫āl.
The Lord is powerful and merciful.

ਰਮਤ ਰਾਮ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਆਧਾਰ ॥
रमत राम घट घट आधार ॥
Ramaṯ rām gẖat gẖat āḏẖār.
The all-pervading Lord is the support of each and every heart.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਬਸਤ ਸਭ ਠਾਇ ॥
बासुदेव बसत सभ ठाइ ॥
Bāsuḏev basaṯ sabẖ ṯẖā▫e.
The luminous Lord dwells everywhere.

ਲੀਲਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥
लीला किछु लखी न जाइ ॥४॥
Līlā kicẖẖ lakẖī na jā▫e. ||4||
His play cannot be known. ||4||

ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥
मिहर दइआ करि करनैहार ॥
Mihar ḏa▫i▫ā kar karnaihār.
Be kind and compassionate to me, O Creator Lord.

ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥
भगति बंदगी देहि सिरजणहार ॥
Bẖagaṯ banḏagī ḏėh sirjaṇhār.
Bless me with devotion and meditation, O Lord Creator.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥
कहु नानक गुरि खोए भरम ॥
Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram.
Says Nanak, the Guru has rid me of doubt.

ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
एको अलहु पारब्रहम ॥५॥३४॥४५॥
Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Page 1136

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
भैरउ महला ५ ॥
Bẖairo mėhlā 5.
Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:

ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥
वरत न रहउ न मह रमदाना ॥
varaṯ na raha▫o na mah ramḏānā.
I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
तिसु सेवी जो रखै निदाना ॥१॥
Ŧis sevī jo rakẖai niḏānā. ||1||
I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||

ਏਕੁ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥
एकु गुसाई अलहु मेरा ॥
Ėk gusā▫ī alhu merā.
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
हिंदू तुरक दुहां नेबेरा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Hinḏū ṯurak ḏuhāʼn neberā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He administers justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
हज काबै जाउ न तीरथ पूजा ॥
Haj kābai jā▫o na ṯirath pūjā.
I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.

ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
एको सेवी अवरु न दूजा ॥२॥
Ėko sevī avar na ḏūjā. ||2||
I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||

ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥
पूजा करउ न निवाज गुजारउ ॥
Pūjā kara▫o na nivāj gujāra▫o.
I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥
एक निरंकार ले रिदै नमसकारउ ॥३॥
Ėk nirankār le riḏai namaskāra▫o. ||3||
I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
ना हम हिंदू न मुसलमान ॥
Nā ham hinḏū na musalmān.
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥
अलह राम के पिंडु परान ॥४॥
Alah rām ke pind parān. ||4||
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥
कहु कबीर इहु कीआ वखाना ॥
Kaho Kabīr ih kī▫ā vakẖānā.
Says Kabeer, this is what I say:

ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੫॥੩॥
गुर पीर मिलि खुदि खसमु पछाना ॥५॥३॥
Gur pīr mil kẖuḏ kẖasam pacẖẖānā. ||5||3||
meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master. ||5||3||

 

[Astroboy]

Page 1083, Line 19
ਹੂਰ ਨੂਰ ਮੁਸਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇਆ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਅਲਹ ਆਲਾ ਹੁਜਰਾ ॥੫॥
हूर नूर मुसकु खुदाइआ बंदगी अलह आला हुजरा ॥५॥
Hūr nūr musak kẖuḏā▫i▫ā banḏagī alah ālā hujrā. ||5||
God is the beauty, the light and the fragrance. Meditation on Allah is the secluded meditation chamber. ||5||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[shearwater]

Re: Christian Concept of God

In reference to the discussion, God is referred to in the New Testament Gospel of John as the Word. " In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." Christians understand that God is an eternal spirit composed of three persons combined into one being who identifies himself with human nature through Jesus Christ, who himself was the Word referred to above. The Gospel of John speaks to the Greek mind which was during the centuries around Christ, steeped in philosophy and learning, equating knowledge with virtue which we know from experience is not true. Some people are quite brilliant in their mental capacity but are simply immoral in there lives. Aristotle was a philosopher who preceded Christ by a couple hundred years. Aristotle was a pagan in that he had no knowledge of God as framed in the Judeo-Christian sense. The Apostle Paul commended the pagan philosophers for their morals but reminded them that their concepts of right and wrong were not adequate to be accepted with a holy God. To be accepted by God one must acknowledge that he has sinned against God's holy ordinances and ask Christ for forgiveness. Thereupon the penitent is forgiven and cleansed from all previous sin. Jesus Christ was asked on one occasions by his 12 followers what God the Father was like and he replied, that he, Jesus, was the express image of God. So Christians pattern their lives after Jesus Christ as we see him in the New Testament. One of the teachings of the Bible is that "without holiness no man shall see God." To become holy, people need to be freed from their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. The rationale for this is explained in terms of the ancient Jewish liberation from Egypt as slaves when the death angel passed over the doors of the houses of those who had lambs blood sprinkled on them and their sons did not die because of the blood. I know that Sikhs do not believe in angels and supernatural spirits other than the Granth Sahib. So this is a different concept that they might not be able to comprehend. In any case, I have met several wonderful sikhs who show compassion on others and demonstrate that their hearts want to be right and do right. I believe that God recognizes this and will reward every man according to his deeds. But salvation from sin cannot be earned. It is a free gift to anyone who recognizes himself as a sinner and asks Jesus Christ to come into his heart and life.

 

[jasingh]

We seem to be comparing words than what they denote. The word Allah in SGGS is same as in Koran but what it denotes is completely different. This depends upon the understanding about Allah, not the word but what it denotes. Concept of GOD in SGGS is different than other thought processes. SGGS talks of a GOD which cannot be described by human adjectives like judgemental, rewarding, punishing, loving, liking/disliking, merciful etc. HE/SHE/IT is beyond all such charateristics. SGGS calls it NIRLAPE. So let us make sure that we do not start a discussion about the word but keep thinking about what it is pointing to.

Regards.

 

[jasingh]

Can it be proven within reasonable limits that the tenth Guru did say the actual words "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneo Granth"? I mean do we know where is it written? I know for sure that it is not in SGGS; is it in Dasam Granth some where? IF yes, can some one point me to it. I will be much obliged.

Regards.

 

[shearwater]

If a god cannot be understood in human terms, is he in fact the almighty God? Jesus said of himself that he was God. He further said, if you want to know what God is like, look at me. I find that idea intriguing because it denotes human personality to a being who transcended human thought yet made himself accessible to human beings. Allah by my understanding, is a "moon god" that Muhammad worshiped during a time when Islam was in its infancy. Allah is incomprehensibly complex and in fact cannot be understood by human beings while on this earth. The relevance of such a god seems totally outside of our understanding and therefore totally irrelevant to our lives, a mere philosophical concept that has no proof of existence. I am a Christian believer so this post should probably be in an area of this site for such thoughts.

 

[Admin]

Can it be proven within reasonable limits that the tenth Guru did say the actual words "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneo Granth"? I mean do we know where is it written? I know for sure that it is not in SGGS; is it in Dasam Granth some where? IF yes, can some one point me to it. I will be much obliged.

Regards.

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Guru Granth Sahib is a Granth (book) originally compiled by Fifth Guru and named as Adi Granth, and later recompiled by all the gurus that followed him. Guru Granth Sahib was appointed as the Eleventh Guru by Tenth Guru Guru Gobind Singh ji. It is the ultimate teacher of the sikhs. Sikh means disciple and Guru means teacher. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]According to Guru Gobind Singh's poet Sainapat, Bhai Nand Lal and Dhadi Nath Mal, all of who were present at Nander, a day before the Guru's demise, the sikhs enquired as to whom he was entrusting his Khalsa. Bhai Nand Lal in Rahitnama says the Guru replied he has three forms. The first was nirgun or invisible, the second was his word and the third was sagun or the visible. After his physical death his soul would be invisible. His second form would be Adi Granth (not Dasam Granth), "Dusar Rup Granthji jan, Mera rup Granthji jan. Is men bhed nahin kuchh man." The third sagun, or visible rup was the Khalsa. He added that he had bestowed his physical form upon his khalsa. The Guru accompanied by Khalsa went to the place where Adi Granth had been installed. He opened the holy book, placed five paise and a coconut before it, bowed before it, then went round the sacred scripture five times, bowed every time, and declared it as the Guru for all times to come. Upto this time the holy book was called Pothi Sahib. Gobind Singh named it Granth consisting of two words, Gur and Ant meaning eternal Guru. He asserted: " In future whoever wishes to seek englightenment, guidance and solace, let him read the holy granth. This is your Guru for ever and ever till eternity. " The Guru said that he was entrusting the Khalsa to the care of AkalPurukh (God). He affirmed [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] Dusara rup Granth ji jan
Un ke ang mero kar man
Jo sikh gur darshan ki chah
Darshan karo granth ji ah.
Jo mam sath chaho kar bat
Granth ji parhe bichare sath.
jo muj bachan sunan ki chai
Granth ji parhe sune chit lae
mero rup Granth ji jan
Is men bhed nahin kuchh man
[/FONT]</pre> [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms][SIZE=-1]To download punjabi fonts so that you can read the following paragraaph (and many other poems, stories, gurbani in this site) CLICK HERE

dUsrA r<p gq*W jI jAn
un cE a*g mEr~ cr mAn
j~ is&k gUr drSn cI CAh
drSn cr~ gq*W jI aAh
j~ mn sAW CAh~ cr bAV
gq*W jI pRE sUNE iC&V lAh
m~r~ r<p gq*W jI jAn
ies m>: BED nhI: cUx mAN
[The Granth is second myself (Guru Granth, not Dasam Granth which was compiled later by Bhai Mani singh), It should be taken for me. A Sikh who wants to see me, should have a look at the Granth. One who wishes to talk to me, should read the Granth and think over it. One who is anxious to listen to my talk, he should read the Granth and listen to its recitation with attention. Consider the Granth as my ownself. Have not the least doubt about it.] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Guru Gobind singh's last sermon (now it is part of daily routine of Sikhs, after Ardaas). [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] aagya bhai Akal ki Tabhi chalayo Panth,
Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth.
Guru Granth ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
jo, prabh ko milna chahe khoj shabad men le.
[/FONT]</pre> [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] aAigaA BeI acAl cI VbI ClAy~ p*W
s&b is&kN c~ hUcm h> gUr< mAny~ gq*W
gUr< gq*W jI mAny~ prgt gUrA: cI dEh
j~ pqB c~ imlNE CAhE k~j Sbd mE: lE
[Under orders of the Immortal being the Panth was started. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider Guru Granth as representing Guru's body. Those who wish to meet God can find the way in its hymns.] [/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Thus Eleventh Guru Granth Sahib ji were born. Guru Granth has 1430 pages of text in poetry form. The Guru Granth is full of devotion, meditation, grace of Guru and God. It includes hymns of more then 20 Hindu and Muslim saints of India. It is the only holy book in world which was written by its founder of religion. Bible was not written by Christ, neither was Quran but Granth was written by all Gurus, from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind. Guru Granth Sahib also contains the hymns of famous saints of their time (irrespective of caste, creed, religion,etc). [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Guru Gobind Singh wrote his own Granth, which was called "Dasam Granth". Bhai Mani Singh compiled and included other work of Guru Gobind Singh in Dasam Granth. Here is the comparison of both granths. Guru Granth vs. Dasam Granth. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Adi Granth and Dasam Granth, a comparison: similarity. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]1. Both the granths have almost the same number of
printed pages of the same size of the page and
similar type. The Guru Granth has 1430 pages
and Dasam Granth 1428.

2. Both belive in one supreme being, a personal God,
merciful and kind.

3. God is also all-pervading, unborn, formless,
timeless.

4. Both lay emphasis on meditation and repetition
of the Name to achieve salvation.

5. Both believe in the law of karma and transmigration
of soul.

6. Both have faith in Sacha Khand.

7. Both emphazie on the devotion to the Guru, who
is perfect man, but not God.

8. Both rely on casteless and class less society,
and equality between man and woman.

9. Both are in poetry and in Gurmukhi script.

[/FONT]</pre> [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]The difference between Guru Granth and Dasam Granth. [/FONT]

1. [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]
   [*] The main difference between the two is that of objective. The Guru Granth aims at gaining peace of mind and complete renunciation. The Dasam Granth believes in a holy war (Dharma Yudh) against tyranny and fanaticism.
   [*] God of Guru Granth is God of truth. God of Dasam Granth is God of justice, ready to strike at the tyrant, autocrat and the despot.
   [*] The Guru Granth is full of devotion, meditation, grace of Guru and God. The Dasam granth depicts scenes of battles, arms and weapons and intrigues of men and women.
   [*] Guru Nanak's Japji and Guru Gobind singh's Jap differ essentially. Japji believes in God's Hukum. There is no such thing in Gobind Singh's Jap.
   [*] According to Loehlin, the Guru Granth may be compared to Temple and the Dasam Granth to a fortress. (Loehlin pages 57-59)[/FONT]

<hr> <tt> BIBLIOGRAPHY </tt>

1. <tt>Copyright © Harbans Singh "The encyclopedia of Sikhism. "</tt>

Reference: Sikh Gurus

 

[Astroboy]

In Sikhism -- maybe I am mistaken -- the soul does not make a journey from a to b. The separation is not real but perceived. The mind subdued finds something that it never lost to begin with. This realization of an "ineffable and resplendent light" the jyote does not involve a journey, but rather a realization of connected-ness.

Yes it is true indeed that we are already connected with the param Jyot but we also need to shine the light outwardly. So it may seem that the supposed journey would be reaching within for the light and bringing it outwards.

 

[Astroboy]

Pooran Jot Jagai ghatt mai tab khalas taahi nikhalas jaanay
Such a man, in whose heart shines the full Divine Radiant Light, only then is he a pure Khalsa, otherwise consider him impure.

Jaagat Jot jappay nis basur ek bina munn nek na aanay
He the Khalsa meditates on the Ever-Radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else, from the mind.

Narayanjot Kaur Ji, this is Sikhism.

 

[curious seeker]

imho...the Allah Raam Parbrahm Parmeshwar..Gopal..Krishan etc etc ...mentioned and described in SGGS are one and the same

I am not so sure the Allah of the Koran and that of. SGGS.....Awaal ALLAH noor upaya kudrat ke sabh bandeh are one and the same ???
A cursory reading of the Koran describes a different sort of Allah than the one in SGGS...

Learning..unlearning..and RELEARNING....:yes:
Gyani JS

Hi Gyani

Well perhaps the following understanding of what religions are, might help elucidate an issue like this, I will post it here and then I think I will follow the recommendation of my friend Narayanjot Kaur and post it in a new thread. This is related to another thread as well which goes under the title: Sikhism and Zoroastrianism: A Dialogue

I have found, in my many spiritual wanderings, many concepts of Zarathushtra's Gathas to be very helpful in helping understand religions and what they are what they differ etc.

Zarathushtra called His Manthra (That is his Thought Provoking Message) Daena Vanguhi Daena Meaning Inner or Ethical Perception of Reality and-or God and Vanguhi, literally, meaning Good Loving. So:The Good Loving Ethical Perception This world Daena, since it was related to His teachings, came to mean Religion or Din in Persian with the passage of time

But to Zarathushtra this was not a religion in the sense we give it today. His immediate followers also treated the word as an Ethical Perception and spoke of different daenas which they further divided in two groups, those that worshipped Wisdom Personified (Mazda)and those that worshipped illusory light or false wisdom , which they called daevayasna . To Sikhs the word daeva must sound familiar , is the same deva or dev but in Old Avestan. Except that, in The Avesta, Traditional Zoroastrian religious literature (which means something like Anti-Veda,) the devs instead of real Gods where false illusory deities , the Products of an aka manah, a bad or senseless thinking.

But the point is that, to Zarathushtra, what we call today religions where perceptions of Reality-God. Some where good others not so good. Most importantly they were Human Perceptions not Divine. Because to Zarathushtra God is the Most Knowing and we are ignorant and in need of knowledge. So from ignorance we try to discover what God is like, and created Perceptions of what He is like

Further more, in Ziism God has given man tools which can be used to discern Him: A criitical thinking mind, insight and a conscience. Then He also 'speaks' that is communicates with us both to our consciences and minds through Seraosha the Voice of God . This Voice if God is present both in nature and some parts of men{s religious thought those perts that are in Harmony with His Person which is All Loving Wise and Just

Zarathushtra wants us to e exercise our free wills to choose God and follow His Eternal Law or Asha. In other words to follow the Hukman of God's will is to an Ashavan or Asha Lover to be in harmony with God by choosing to act, speak and think according to His Eternal Law.

Now if we but apply this principle to examining why Religions are so divergent from one another, we would quicklyrealize that we are dealing with the theological views of men . The On and Only religion is Gods relligion and it can be resumed as to be in under the Command or God's will, willingly surrendering our will to His And, not only because He is God but because He is all the things we know he is like: True, Wonderful, Loving, Benevolent, All Good, etc, etc. Zarathushtra's answer to whether the meaning and nature of Allah, or any other name of God, is the same in different religions would be YES and NO.

If the theology of the Religion is in the Hukam of His will, the answer is YES. If it is not, then the answer is NO!

 

[curious seeker]

If a god cannot be understood in human terms, is he in fact the almighty God? Jesus said of himself that he was God. He further said, if you want to know what God is like, look at me. I find that idea intriguing because it denotes human personality to a being who transcended human thought yet made himself accessible to human beings. Allah by my understanding, is a "moon god" that Muhammad worshiped during a time when Islam was in its infancy. Allah is incomprehensibly complex and in fact cannot be understood by human beings while on this earth. The relevance of such a god seems totally outside of our understanding and therefore totally irrelevant to our lives, a mere philosophical concept that has no proof of existence. I am a Christian believer so this post should probably be in an area of this site for such thoughts.

Hi Shearwater.

What is meant by God not being understood is that while certainly He could make Himself understood, and dies man in his natural state cannot understand him . According to Sikhi, If I understand correctly, In order for man to Know God one has to experience Him and that can only hpapen if one is in the Command of Gods will, (like a soldier is under the command of a general, perhaps a weak allegory but youshould get the drift of my thinking). That means that one must realize he-she is ignorant, that is, he lacks understanding and that the things that give them attachmnent to the temporal world are maya, that is illusion. Once he realizes this, she-he then must give up his free will and place at the command of God's will. He then will be free and knowing he can overcome illussion and achieve liberation.

God in Sikhism does not need to make Himself accessible to humans He is immanent in all that is including humans. His laws which are expression of His weill, support every breath he takes and every thing he does Without God man could not be alive! How more accessible do you need Him to be_

Then there is the fact that while Allah was the name of a moon God, so was eloha, the Hebrew version of the same god, and the singular for elohim of Genesis. Also Yahweh, according to the Bible itself, sits in the council of EL which was the high God of the Semites and Summerians long before there was a Bible, so I would remind you that if you want to take the slliver of wood out of your brother's eye, then be careful that you do not have a 2 by 4 in your own eye.

So Allah an does not have proof of existence? Well what is the proof of existence for Yahweh, who is none other than God the Father in the NT?

Blessings
Curious

 

[curious seeker]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Guru Granth Sahib is a Granth (book) originally compiled by Fifth Guru and named as Adi Granth, and later recompiled by all the gurus that followed him. Guru Granth Sahib was appointed as the Eleventh Guru by Tenth Guru Guru Gobind Singh ji. It is the ultimate teacher of the sikhs. Sikh means disciple and Guru means teacher. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]According to Guru Gobind Singh's poet Sainapat, Bhai Nand Lal and Dhadi Nath Mal, all of who were present at Nander, a day before the Guru's demise, the sikhs enquired as to whom he was entrusting his Khalsa. Bhai Nand Lal in Rahitnama says the Guru replied he has three forms. The first was nirgun or invisible, the second was his word and the third was sagun or the visible. After his physical death his soul would be invisible. His second form would be Adi Granth (not Dasam Granth), "Dusar Rup Granthji jan, Mera rup Granthji jan. Is men bhed nahin kuchh man." The third sagun, or visible rup was the Khalsa. He added that he had bestowed his physical form upon his khalsa. The Guru accompanied by Khalsa went to the place where Adi Granth had been installed. He opened the holy book, placed five paise and a coconut before it, bowed before it, then went round the sacred scripture five times, bowed every time, and declared it as the Guru for all times to come. Upto this time the holy book was called Pothi Sahib. Gobind Singh named it Granth consisting of two words, Gur and Ant meaning eternal Guru. He asserted: " In future whoever wishes to seek englightenment, guidance and solace, let him read the holy granth. This is your Guru for ever and ever till eternity. " The Guru said that he was entrusting the Khalsa to the care of AkalPurukh (God). He affirmed [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] Dusara rup Granth ji jan
Un ke ang mero kar man
Jo sikh gur darshan ki chah
Darshan karo granth ji ah.
Jo mam sath chaho kar bat
Granth ji parhe bichare sath.
jo muj bachan sunan ki chai
Granth ji parhe sune chit lae
mero rup Granth ji jan
Is men bhed nahin kuchh man
[/FONT]</pre> [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms][SIZE=-1]To download punjabi fonts so that you can read the following paragraaph (and many other poems, stories, gurbani in this site) CLICK HERE

dUsrA r<p gq*W jI jAn
un cE a*g mEr~ cr mAn
j~ is&k gUr drSn cI CAh
drSn cr~ gq*W jI aAh
j~ mn sAW CAh~ cr bAV
gq*W jI pRE sUNE iC&V lAh
m~r~ r<p gq*W jI jAn
ies m>: BED nhI: cUx mAN
[The Granth is second myself (Guru Granth, not Dasam Granth which was compiled later by Bhai Mani singh), It should be taken for me. A Sikh who wants to see me, should have a look at the Granth. One who wishes to talk to me, should read the Granth and think over it. One who is anxious to listen to my talk, he should read the Granth and listen to its recitation with attention. Consider the Granth as my ownself. Have not the least doubt about it.] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Guru Gobind singh's last sermon (now it is part of daily routine of Sikhs, after Ardaas). [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] aagya bhai Akal ki Tabhi chalayo Panth,
Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth.
Guru Granth ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
jo, prabh ko milna chahe khoj shabad men le.
[/FONT]</pre> [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms] aAigaA BeI acAl cI VbI ClAy~ p*W
s&b is&kN c~ hUcm h> gUr< mAny~ gq*W
gUr< gq*W jI mAny~ prgt gUrA: cI dEh
j~ pqB c~ imlNE CAhE k~j Sbd mE: lE
[Under orders of the Immortal being the Panth was started. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider Guru Granth as representing Guru's body. Those who wish to meet God can find the way in its hymns.] [/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Thus Eleventh Guru Granth Sahib ji were born. Guru Granth has 1430 pages of text in poetry form. The Guru Granth is full of devotion, meditation, grace of Guru and God. It includes hymns of more then 20 Hindu and Muslim saints of India. It is the only holy book in world which was written by its founder of religion. Bible was not written by Christ, neither was Quran but Granth was written by all Gurus, from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind. Guru Granth Sahib also contains the hymns of famous saints of their time (irrespective of caste, creed, religion,etc). [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Guru Gobind Singh wrote his own Granth, which was called "Dasam Granth". Bhai Mani Singh compiled and included other work of Guru Gobind Singh in Dasam Granth. Here is the comparison of both granths. Guru Granth vs. Dasam Granth. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]Adi Granth and Dasam Granth, a comparison: similarity. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]1. Both the granths have almost the same number of
printed pages of the same size of the page and
similar type. The Guru Granth has 1430 pages
and Dasam Granth 1428.

2. Both belive in one supreme being, a personal God,
merciful and kind.

3. God is also all-pervading, unborn, formless,
timeless.

4. Both lay emphasis on meditation and repetition
of the Name to achieve salvation.

5. Both believe in the law of karma and transmigration
of soul.

6. Both have faith in Sacha Khand.

7. Both emphazie on the devotion to the Guru, who
is perfect man, but not God.

8. Both rely on casteless and class less society,
and equality between man and woman.

9. Both are in poetry and in Gurmukhi script.

[/FONT]</pre> [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]The difference between Guru Granth and Dasam Granth. [/FONT]

1. [FONT=verdana,arial,comic sans ms]
   [*] The main difference between the two is that of objective. The Guru Granth aims at gaining peace of mind and complete renunciation. The Dasam Granth believes in a holy war (Dharma Yudh) against tyranny and fanaticism.
   [*] God of Guru Granth is God of truth. God of Dasam Granth is God of justice, ready to strike at the tyrant, autocrat and the despot.
   [*] The Guru Granth is full of devotion, meditation, grace of Guru and God. The Dasam granth depicts scenes of battles, arms and weapons and intrigues of men and women.
   [*] Guru Nanak's Japji and Guru Gobind singh's Jap differ essentially. Japji believes in God's Hukum. There is no such thing in Gobind Singh's Jap.
   [*] According to Loehlin, the Guru Granth may be compared to Temple and the Dasam Granth to a fortress. (Loehlin pages 57-59)[/FONT]

<hr> <tt> BIBLIOGRAPHY </tt>

1. <tt>Copyright © Harbans Singh "The encyclopedia of Sikhism. "</tt>

Reference: Sikh Gurus

Hello Aman

Please, forgive my ignorance I have just started learning. In readings on the NET I have found that the Darsam is not considered scripture, correct? Are there any groups that consider it scripture, and if they do in what relation to SGGS? Now if it is not scripture what kind of value is it given by the Panth, and how influential for the average Sikhi is it?

Thank you for answering my questions
Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Pooran Jot Jagai ghatt mai tab khalas taahi nikhalas jaanay
Such a man, in whose heart shines the full Divine Radiant Light, only then is he a pure Khalsa, otherwise consider him impure.

Jaagat Jot jappay nis basur ek bina munn nek na aanay
He the Khalsa meditates on the Ever-Radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else, from the mind.

Narayanjot Kaur Ji, this is Sikhism.

Hello Namjap!!

Real puzzled here. What if i where to tell you that There is a teaching , very ancient, somewhere between 1500 and 2000 BCE, that has concepts very similar to Hukam and this Radiant Divine Light So close that one translation uses precisely the term Divine Radiant Light.

Its almost as if when Zarathushtra asked God: When, Most Wise One, shall the Saviors with advance doctrines come? He was thinking of the Sikh Gurus, Not that I am saying that is so , just that they thought remarkably alike in many ways.

Here is a Zarathushti Salute
Ushta Temeaning Radiant Light to you

Curious

 

[spnadmin]

Hello Aman

Please, forgive my ignorance I have just started learning. In readings on the NET I have found that the Darsam is not considered scripture, correct? Are there any groups that consider it scripture, and if they do in what relation to SGGS? Now if it is not scripture what kind of value is it given by the Panth, and how influential for the average Sikhi is it?

Thank you for answering my questions
Curious

curious seeker ji

"Darsam" ??? I think you mean Dasam but just want to make certain that is what you are asking about.