Amrit And Maryada

[manbir]

Like every religion, Sikhism too has two aspects - The first one is the Religious aspect and the second one is the Social aspect.

In most of the religions both the aspects are defined. The social aspect is evolved and formed in relation to a particular period and time. BUT the TIME is ever changing. If you try to analyze all major religions of this world, the social aspects (ritualistic) of the religion which were defined earlier have with passage of time become unacceptable or automatically discarded by the society.

The problem with the human beings is that it has since ages given the social aspect of a religion more importance than the religious aspect and that created all the ills of the society.

The most wonderful aspect of Guru Nanak's teachings is that unlike other religions it totally discards this social (ritualistic) aspect of religion. That is why it was not defined and codified by our Gurus.

Our Gurus were too farsighted and had a thought process unlike common human beings like us. They were well aware of the human failings. Every Shabad in SGGS depicts the weakness of human mind and body.

Do you think that our Gurus from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not have time to define and write down the Maryadas ?

Or are we that foolish to think that our Gurus forgot about it !!!!
It seems that we Sikhs subconsciously consider ourselves better Sikhs that our Gurus !!!
Our Gurus gave us a complete Maryada in the form of SGGS. Why and What more we need that we cannot find in SGGS.
Do we consider ourselves better equipped to write something better than our Gurus !!!
If you have any dought try and test it on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – you’ll be surprised how it unshackles you from the bondages of this world. You’ll need not wander aimlessly.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

In Guru Granth Sahib Ji,We are told

One who fights for poor is brave.(bani onto Sant Kabir)

Aborbebed in Others women and pleausre of slander and did not do devotion of absorbed(Bani via Ninth Master)
Removal of hairs leads to lower intellect.(First Master).

The right of other is pork to that(Muslim) and beef to that(Hindu).


Are these things not touching social aspect.
Then
that is caste as we do deeds./Sa Jaat Sa Paat hai Jete Karam Kamye.

Das can say that by mercy of Akal das know Vedanta very well.
The God in Upnishads is 101% same as in Gurmat.
Many of Nirmalas behold Gurmat as same as Vedanta.

BJP men Mr Balbeer Punj openy tagg us as Vedanta.


If we go by fact as stating that sprituality has nothing to do with socity then it is hypocry in general terms.(in open world outside Gurmat).

Yes scince,logic or even sprituality in Vedanta did not casue much change in social fieds so it was defeated by inferior idealogies.

Let us see Gurmat,It has brought socail changes in classes via sprituality.More has to be done.

As das gave examples above By Numero Uno Book Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Panth both aspect of Sprituality and social aspect go side by side.Knowledge and devotion both are togather.

The concept to separate them makes us Vedantic.Our egao will ince{censored} without devotiojn and we will fight within ourselves and with others.

If some one imagine Panth lie that then das must not worry as such idealogy is self destrcutive.
So das will not oppose it but will tell them to go more deper into it and soon they will be devored by paganism.

all the best.

 

[devinesanative]

Love is the Amrit , and Believing and having faith in love unconditionally and not breaking the Integrity of believing in love is Maryada.

Rest All is like a Ranga Ciyar .

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Ishaq E HaqiQi ie Love to Truth ie God and not Ishaq -E- Mizazi ie love by human insticnt to worldly things.

 

[ISDhillon]

Hello,

SGGS has a great message for mankind but it is not used for the temporal order of khalsa, their is a clear difference, when Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji was executed their was a change in the political scenario, Sri Guru Hargobind Ji then established to 2 swords miri and piri, would we get this type of incredible change from SGGS, no we would not it is the simple answer to this, temporal order must be flexible we are not saying khalsa has spiritual authority but through consensus hukumnammas and gurmattas can be passed which will reflect a changing society, and maryada is essential as a form of discipline is required to keep the body and mind in track when doing your bhagti, this is not essential to humans but is to sikhs, those who say we only need SGGS are free to believe such a thing but ultimately this belief will rest with them, and to me this belief is representing a change in society where man considers himself to be the measure of all things and is unwilling to submit himself this type of change in society is not somthing that we sikhs need to change our religion for.

Humbly

Indy

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear Indy Ji!
In your previous post you wrote "a community is the collective living testament to sikhism."
In this post you wrote "the guru panth is a living testament to the historical truth that 1699 did happen."

Many Panths are existing at present wearing our Guru's banner and claim to be the originals. Is it enough to wear a T-shirt with printed names on it?

Our Gurus showed us the way to get liberated from the worldly entanglements. Please explain why we have made testaments to remain in a mayic world.

It is all right when you write that there is 'the historical truth that 1699 did happen.'
It is the truth also that 2006 is happening.

There are searchers of TRUTH.
And there are searchers who are searching written material about 1699. I wish to spend the present life doing Simran.

There are people who are searching for reasons to reject our Guru's writings. There are people who are searching for more written material from and about our Gurus.
Our Gurus have already completed their written work long back though.

Only true Simran, in my view, gives the consciousness for true understanding.

Then you wrote "there is no other guru apart from the guru panth and guru granth."

The Granth is our Guru. Since when the Panth has become our Guru in which you are also holding a position.

I have heard that the humble Panth accompanies the Guru on Godly path. Is this a reason why a Panth starts feeling like the Guru?

You wrote at the end of your post "Rehat and temporal order are not fixed, the guru made changes and that is what khalsa is supposed to represent ie, continuity and change, distrust arises solely because we do not realise that temporal order can be changed with changing circumstances, however the initiation and symbols are fixed."

In Sansaar nothing is fixed. All the worlds are temporal. One may get rebirths repeatedly to live with it when it is so important for him.

Or one may get Mukti to merge in God who never takes birth.

--------------

Dear Manbir Ji!
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

--------------

Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji!
One does not get liberated because he follows social and religious rules of this world and looks like Muslim, Hindu, Vedanti or a Sikh.

--------------

Dear Devinesanative Ji!
You seem to have written this from your experiences and wisdom "Love is the Amrit."
This sounds great.

Then you wrote "Rest All is like a Ranga Ciyar."

Would you please explain how you manage to live with both (duality) at the same time.

Love.


Balbir Singh

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all and Indy Ji!

You wrote "those who say we only need SGGS are free to believe such a thing but ultimately this belief will rest with them, and to me this belief is representing a change in society where man considers himself to be the measure of all things and is unwilling to submit himself this type of change in society is not somthing that we sikhs need to change our religion for."

A person may run a business to sell the worldly religion or may dream to buy Godly matters in a particular shop. It is his luck.

In my view, God's grace has still to fall on him.

Thanks for your blessings "those who say we only need SGGS are free to believe such a thing but ultimately this belief will rest with them."

For the rest in Truth, may God help my existence to offer everything.

Love.


Balbir Singh

 

[manbir]

The Granth is our Guru, Period.

Panth can never be our Guru. Sikhs have habit of talking with confused minds. Even intellectuals among us seem to say things not realizing the real significance of their utterances.
I do not understand why we Sikhs have perpetual urge to equate ourselves with our Guru.

 

[devinesanative]

Today the world is very competitive , MUKTI is ONE , HEAVEN is ONE , GOD is ONE .

That's why to crack the competive entrance exam of MUKTI , HEAVEN and GOD every one is EQUATING to GURU .

Everyone is trying to be GURMATT

 

[devinesanative]

Gurfateh
Ishaq E HaqiQi ie Love to Truth ie God and not Ishaq -E- Mizazi ie love by human insticnt to worldly things.

Gurfateh
Ishaq E HaqiQi ie Love to Truth ie God and not Ishaq -E- Mizazi ie love by human insticnt to worldly things.

Oh Dear , I was also saying the same thing ..... Not the love to any Woman ....

People visit Gurudwara not because they Love God , But because to get their wish fullfill .

At one time people say its in the hands of God , then why beg....

 

[devinesanative]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear Indy Ji!
In your previous post you wrote "a community is the collective living testament to sikhism."
In this post you wrote "the guru panth is a living testament to the historical truth that 1699 did happen."

Many Panths are existing at present wearing our Guru's banner and claim to be the originals. Is it enough to wear a T-shirt with printed names on it?

Our Gurus showed us the way to get liberated from the worldly entanglements. Please explain why we have made testaments to remain in a mayic world.

It is all right when you write that there is 'the historical truth that 1699 did happen.'
It is the truth also that 2006 is happening.

There are searchers of TRUTH.
And there are searchers who are searching written material about 1699. I wish to spend the present life doing Simran.

There are people who are searching for reasons to reject our Guru's writings. There are people who are searching for more written material from and about our Gurus.
Our Gurus have already completed their written work long back though.

Only true Simran, in my view, gives the consciousness for true understanding.

Then you wrote "there is no other guru apart from the guru panth and guru granth."

The Granth is our Guru. Since when the Panth has become our Guru in which you are also holding a position.

I have heard that the humble Panth accompanies the Guru on Godly path. Is this a reason why a Panth starts feeling like the Guru?

You wrote at the end of your post "Rehat and temporal order are not fixed, the guru made changes and that is what khalsa is supposed to represent ie, continuity and change, distrust arises solely because we do not realise that temporal order can be changed with changing circumstances, however the initiation and symbols are fixed."

In Sansaar nothing is fixed. All the worlds are temporal. One may get rebirths repeatedly to live with it when it is so important for him.

Or one may get Mukti to merge in God who never takes birth.

--------------

Dear Manbir Ji!
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

--------------

Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji!
One does not get liberated because he follows social and religious rules of this world and looks like Muslim, Hindu, Vedanti or a Sikh.

--------------

Dear Devinesanative Ji!
You seem to have written this from your experiences and wisdom "Love is the Amrit."
This sounds great.

Then you wrote "Rest All is like a Ranga Ciyar."

Would you please explain how you manage to live with both (duality) at the same time.

Love.


Balbir Singh

Just as you Do So !!!

 

[devinesanative]

Dear Balbir Ji

You have a good experience and wisdom more than me , but let me say something....

Never Expect Good from anyone , What ever you get , always accept it as good .

Even if a person has written 25 % Good and 75 % Bad Ignore the rest 75 % .

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Balbir Ji,

"Since when the Panth has become our Guru in which you are also holding a position"

It took 5 sikhs to give amrit to one guru who lost the surname rai and became singh, the temporal order of the guru immersed into the corporate bofy politic of the khalsa, thats why 1699 is referred to as the cosmic play because the spiritual aspect became instilled in the granth and the temporal order beecame immersed in the khalsa, so the gurus powers were seperated and the khalsa is guru panth, the 2 go hand in hand its only when one functions without the other that we encounter problems, now I can sit here and continue to explain this but I dont think I will bother because those who would like to believe that this never happened are free to do so. Historical truths are plenty such as the admonishing of the 10 th guru for bowing to a pirs grave, if the gurus authority was not vested in the 5 singhs then they would never had passed a judgement on the 10th master, the fact is as clear as can be that the khalsa exists to function as the temporal aspect of the guru fullstop. Another thing before I go, people only learn the value of guru panth when it protected them to be able to do simran and seva without the panth even devotion to granth would not be possible.

If you disagree then please let me know but I would like some hard evidence to back your claims that the khalsa does not function as the temporal order of the guru.

Gurfateh!!!

Indy

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear Indy Ji!
You wrote "If you disagree then please let me know but I would like some hard evidence to back your claims that the khalsa does not function as the temporal order of the guru."

The true Panth is to walk on the way with Guru "maarag panth chalay gur satgur sang sikhaa."

The true Panth is offering mind and discarding ego.

Gurbani says mY dishu mwrgu sMqho ikau pRBU imlweIAw ]
"mai dasihu maarag santaho ki-o parabhoo milaa-ee-aa." SGGS page 1098-14
Saints showed me the Path how God is met.

mnu Ariphu haumY qjhu iequ pMiQ julweIAw ]
man arpihu ha-umai tajahu it panth julaa-ee-aa.
Mind is offered. Ego is discarded, walked, this Panth.

Another example for Panth is this.

guru muKhu Alwey qw soBw pwey iqsu jm kY pMiQ n pwiexw ]11]
"gur mukhahu alaa-ay taa sobhaa paa-ay tis jam kai panth na paa-inaa." ||11|| SGGS page 1078-11
Spoken from Guru's mouth he receives adornment. He after birth does not walks any Panth.

One more example from Japuji Sahib is mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ]
"mannai mag na chalai panth." SGGS page 3
By knowing. He does not walk on the way of Panth.

Please listen. The Guru is singing "har kaa panth ko-oo bataavai ha-o taa kai paa-ay laagee."

Since when political parties of Sikhs have started calling them Hari ka Panth and are expecting us to touch their feet?

This is a different matter. All worldly religions need to be organized. Please be sure I am not against such bodies.

The spiritual growth is not achieved by following the rules of such bodies.

--------------

Dear Indy Ji!
What is the Panth you are talking about?

Our Gurus through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji explain us that accompanying the true Guru is the way. And walking along with the Guru, all Panths are left behind.

It is your duty now. Let all know where our Gurus have asked us to follow the Panth and its Maryada you are mentioning.

Please make me wise.


Balbir Singh

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Balbir Ji

"The true Panth is to walk on the way with Guru "maarag panth chalay gur satgur sang sikhaa.""

I agree with this and your guru took amrit so if you are to follow this way then khalsa is also the gurus way.


"mnu Ariphu haumY qjhu iequ pMiQ julweIAw ]
man arpihu ha-umai tajahu it panth julaa-ee-aa.
Mind is offered. Ego is discarded, walked, this Panth."

This is true and when the guru asked for 5 heads five sikhs lossed their ego and sacrificed their heads and created a new panth.

Another example for Panth is this.

"guru muKhu Alwey qw soBw pwey iqsu jm kY pMiQ n pwiexw ]11]
"gur mukhahu alaa-ay taa sobhaa paa-ay tis jam kai panth na paa-inaa." ||11|| SGGS page 1078-11
Spoken from Guru's mouth he receives adornment. He after birth does not walks any Panth."

yes and when you are baptised you are reborn as the guru intended and will follow no other panth

"One more example from Japuji Sahib is mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ]
"mannai mag na chalai panth." SGGS page 3
By knowing. He does not walk on the way of Panth."

exactly so you should stop analysing and accept the panth that the guru gave.


"Since when political parties of Sikhs have started calling them Hari ka Panth and are expecting us to touch their feet?"

touching feet is a personal sign of devotion it does not amount to anything unless you let it.


"The spiritual growth is not achieved by following the rules of such bodies."

true you do not need any religion to repeat the name but in sikhism we do have such a body and that cannot be altered to suit others.

"What is the Panth you are talking about? "

khalsa

"Our Gurus through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji explain us that accompanying the true Guru is the way. And walking along with the Guru, all Panths are left behind."

this is what I am saying the 10th guru also took amrit then if you do not then you are not following his walk and you are not leaving all other panths behind. BTW a sikh is still one who is not baptised but a baptised sikh is the ideal it is the fullfillment otherwise you cannot accept the adi granth as guru because guru gobind Singh Ji on that very day also gace gurgaddi to sri guru granth sahib so how can you follow some of his edicts and reject the rest surely he was not going against sikhi by taking amrit and following maryada please I really would like you to give a response to all of my questions.

"It is your duty now. Let all know where our Gurus have asked us to follow the Panth and its Maryada you are mentioning."

HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!


amrit ceremony and maryada system has been evident in sikhism since its inception it is blantantly denying reality to suggest otherwise. The maryada can never be fixed that is why authority for "guru changes" are invested in the khalsa panth that is why we call it guru panth if you do not understand this then I would seriously advise you do some reading and learn instead of refuting, however if you are happy and fully content on the path that you are on then that too is ok but the definition of guru panth will not be changed by any one.

"Please make me wise."

Only guru can do that

Sorry if I have offended,

Indy

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all and Indy Ji!

It is pity that you are not able to provide any references from Gurbani to support your Panth.

I found many references from our Gurus to reject any Panth.

You wrote "I agree with this and your guru took amrit so if you are to follow this way then khalsa is also the gurus way."
I could not find anywhere a reference from our Guru that he took Amrit.

It is strange that the enlightened Guru, who always enjoyed Amrit through Simran, needed your present ceremonial way of Amrit to taste it again.

Please do not make the Guru responsible for your rituals.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji was born in 1666. On the Vaisakhi day of 1699 Sikhs were adorned with the names 'Singh' and 'Kaur'. In my view, the Guru showed Sikhs how to recognize the Khalsa (the purest form of God) within. He left his body on 7th of October 1708.

He wrote a lot in this time. Where are his writings about the ceremonies Sikhs are performing these days?

I can understand your situation when your answer to all queries is 'HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!'.

I am trying to understand why our Gurus never wrote a book on history.

God's Will is great. HE gets his Will performed through all of us as HE wants. He keeps those busy with karam-kaand (worldly engagements) whom He wants to exist with Maya.

Dear Indy Ji!

Karam-kaand may be very important in your life.

But I missed Simran a lot in your company.

Love.


Balbir Singh

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Balbir Singh Ji,

You seemto keep ignoring the vital question which demolishes your whole "personal opinion" - and that is if your argument is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our guru where did any of our gurus say that the Adi Granth is now guru, and again Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji did take amrit and formed the order of khalsa and allowed for people such as your self to practice simran otherwise today you would be following another "panth"- you have failed to answer any of my questions instead continue to ignore a reality which is vital to sikhism, and for your information I know of no sikh who has ever inspired me who is not khalsa if you can point me out to someone who has inspired you and who is not khalsathen I will have a look but those who do not inspire are not following the gurus hukum and that is to be baptised. There are alot who have argued your case and they have all vanished into non-existence - your 10th guru is the one who gives guru to your bani which love so dearly and also guru status to the panth which I respect so dearly, khalsa does not have spiritual authority that is why their is no mention of the ceremony in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however dasam granth, karminama and plenty of other references which you have failed to draw on when making your conclusions also concur to this.

Finally I would like to say that you maybe right that in your personal opinion you did not know much of simran and I am trapped in the entanglements of the mayic world, if this is the case then currently I relish all entanglements because I know nothing greater and have seen most of the world and khalsa is the greatest roop ever existed I defy anyone to find a greater roop than my 10th father you will make an unworthy journey because their is none.

There are many issues with your last post and I think the word I will use is denial of a divine order - this sums up what I am feeling.

Have a nice day,

Inderjit Singh Dhillon :u):

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all and Indy Ji!

Your first question in this post is "where did any of our gurus say that the Adi Granth is now guru?"

I have not found it anywhere up to now. Would you please say something about this?
Please inform the Panth also what is the original name of the holy Granth given by the Guru. And Since when the title 'Guru' is added before our Granth? And since when the holy words from the Gurus have come under the ownership of a religious group solely?

You continued "and again Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji did take amrit and formed the order of khalsa and allowed for people such as your self to practice simran otherwise today you would be following another "panth.""

You seem to know all Panths.

I feel thankful enjoying God's Will in the company of my Guru. He creates me gratefully to be with ONE.

As an unsatisfied teacher you complained "you have failed to answer any of my questions"

I am a learner. I raised few questions in your class. Have I done a mistake? Sir!

You also wrote " . . . I defy anyone to find a greater roop than my 10th father you will make an unworthy journey because their is none."

Please do not curse others for your ignorance. For your 10th father's sake you may curse your great grand God father.

May I ask one more question Sir?

Why have you placed a smiley after your name Inderjit Singh Dhillon which seems speaking nonstop? I am not able to hear you and understand.

I hope you are smart enough to hold the moment for a pause.

--------------

All the answers are Simran. Get ONE. Get all.

Love.


Balbir Singh

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji!
One does not get liberated because he follows social and religious rules of this world and looks like Muslim, Hindu, Vedanti or a Sikh.

By mercy of Akal any one who is bound by rules and has definate Path can guide us to Salvation like Our Gurus Did and like our Guru Panth is doing.

If we are selfish and attempting for our salvation then this measn that we are away from God.

The day we see God in universe and like Hand feeds mouth thinking no differance bet ween welfare of mouth and self hand as both are same body.

The day we see ourself as tool of God serving universe like Ape Data Ape Bhugta,Ape Sevak Ae Takhur. ie self lord self servent,self giver and self user.

Tha state is state of salvation while being alive.Das can just tell you what happens in that situation but it is obtained by mercy of Akal.

Dear Manbir Singh Ji,

Yuo said that Guru Granth Sahib Ji are Guru and Panth can ot be Guru.

Perhaps you have seen Sikhs who are unworthy to be ar of Guru Panth.

As you will not be able to giva quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji that Guru Granth Sahib Ji were made Guru by living Guru but you can only prove that Bani is Guru.

Let us see var of Bhai Gurdas Ji First,which states that Sikhs became Guru and Gurus.

Let us say Vars of Bhai Gurudas being false and let us say that they are a sort of plan of Brahimn to absorb us(this is a sort of trump card used by present day so called missioaries).

So why did inspite of Gurus being there did Bani of Dhur ir vere from Akal came unto Sikhs like Bhai Mardana,Baba Sunder,Satta,Balwand or says Bhatts.

They were Sikhs yet thier Bani is in Gurbani.Why did God spoke in them while Gurus where there(Bhagats may not be in connection with Gurus but Sikhs were there).

There Bani being included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is roof that Sikhs were given status equal to Guru as all they had was of Guru.

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Balbir Singh Ji,

So now you agree that their is nothing written by our gurus that historically adi granth was conferred with gurgaddi, however you then erronousley continue to call bani your guru, which seems to suggest that you have a pick and mix attitude when it comes to historical truth claims, ie you accept that historically Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave gurgaddi to granth but do not accept the status of guru to the panth because it does not suit your lifestyle, I dont have a problem with people who are not ready to give their heads for the guru but I do have a problem with people who misrepresent our religion.

You then tell me I am ignorant and I feel sorry for you because what you are doing is chucking the baby out with the bathwater I hope you understand that saying and how it fits with you.

I will not be responding further to you as I am confident that I have driven my position home and believe it is etched in your mind where your errors lie and hope it has become ingrained in the minds of others who reads this.

Finally I would just like to say I have love for all even those that commit evil because god lives in them too.

WJKK WJKF

Inderjit Singh Dhillon