General An Exploration Of Femininity And Sikh Women

[spnadmin]

She is not a Sikh Mai ji, but Kiran Bedi is one amazing example of all the dozens of shades of femininity ...She is the first Indian woman to be a police officer...She shot through the ranks ... The best story is when she was in charge of a security detail for one of the many ******* we remember and personally lifted with her own hands an illegally parked automobile and pulled it out of the way. I was spending some time looking at images of Kiran Bedi on Google images.

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...tnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=


She even cuts her hair in a mannish style but the mother, friend, sister, guardian angel, protectress, advocate, adventurer, politician, keeper, teacher, all of that is there, and more. And no make-up.

There is no question it is a matter of attitude.

 

[Astroboy]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji's wife put 'patasse' or sugar into the Khande Da Pahul
for the reason that while taking The Pahul should exhibit the masculinity,
the sugar should exhibit the femininity of compassion, care, humility, etc.
So an Amritdhari has to have both qualities within.

 

[Ishna]

What is feminine? The opposite of masculine qualities, I suppose. If I were to stereotype, I would say briefly that masculine qualities are brute strength, mechanical mindedness, connectivity with the physical, man-made world, recklessness, whereas feminine qualities are more thoughtful, gentle, caring, immaterial.

I need to ponder Mai ji's comment about attitude a bit longer...

I like Astroboy's comment that an amritdhari should have both masculine and feminine qualities within. Is maleness and femaleness just another way maya entangles us? But then we can't deny our biology. Am I confusing biological femininity with the attitude of femininity perhaps?

In the modern West, traditional ideas of the roles for men and women have been challenged which probably adds to my confusion about something which should probably be simple and innate.

Is a question following on from "what is feminine?" the question of "what is the role of females"? Does Sikhi define this? Should it be defined? I think the traditional definition is that the woman does the cooking and the cleaning and the child-rearing, presumably as expressions of feminine qualities of wanting to nurture the family and provide a sanctuary for the family. Western culture has been challenging these traditional roles for a while now and has succeeded in blending the roles of women and men in the West.

Is this necessarily a good thing? Is it not a visible expression of the aforementioned amritdhari ideal of having male and female qualities within? Or is it counter-productive to view the traditional expressions of femininity as lesser than equal? In reality, isn't the manic behaviour of some women and femininsts striving for "equality" as being able to do everything a man can do by casting off the shackles of their own traditional roles presumably coming from innate expressions of feminine qualities (nurturing) an ATTACK on their own female selves?

I say this all with respect and do not intend to offend. My apologies for any offence caused. I am ignorant and confused so please bear with me.

Ishna

 

[Astroboy]

I like Astroboy's comment that an amritdhari should have both masculine and feminine qualities within. Is maleness and femaleness just another way maya entangles us? But then we can't deny our biology. Am I confusing biological femininity with the attitude of femininity perhaps?

Ishna Ji,

I think you have opened the most interesting topic here. Yes there is a bit of confusion between biological femininity and social femininity. Biologically we are evolving in the slow evolutionary way but the social life of women is very different today than in the 1960s. In just 50 odd years women not only are nurturing mothers but also breadwinners. At times the stress level of women is so high that they too need to come home to a 'woman' who would take care of their needs. It is easier for a man to come home to his wife but harder for a woman to come home and be comforted and cared by anyone who can fit into the role of a caring wife.

More later....

 

[findingmyway]

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/mariposazul.htmlMariposazul ji, where can we find a link to the book you mentioned please?

Ishna ji, all the things you relate to femininity are derived from the media and culture. If you had been born to a different culture, your perception would be different. In the BBC show Human Planet, they showed tribes in Africa where it is up to the man to dress up and impress the women rather than the other way around.

The cultural norms you have described are a jail for me. Wearing make up makes me feel claustrophobic except the occasional eye shadow which I use to make myself look closer to my age for work (as I look very young). Having to dress up makes me feel uncomfortable. Ask why are you doing these things? Generally its to attract people or give a certain impression which is not necessarily you. Is that really the best reason?

For me true femininity is being able to conduct myself with grace and dignity always. Beyond that its only aesthetics and doesn't really matter. For me femininity is how I carry myself rather than how 'sexy' I appear to be. In fact the other things are actually hiding true femininity as they stop you seeing past the surface!

 

[Ishna]

Findingmyway ji

If all the things I'm relating to femininity are from media and culture, then what IS femininity, beyond media and culture? Or is there no way to escape this trap? Does Sikhi have it's own culture of femininity or is it Punjabi culture that determines this for Sikh women?

Is it not a human quality to conduct oneself with grace and dignity always? A man can conduct himself with grace and dignity.

I also don't wear make-up beyond lipstick to cover my damaged lips and concealer over blemishes.

 

[Harwinder]

everyone should have a little bit of feminity in themselves. For when we comfort our loved ones it helps in doing so.,..it is an act of being kind gentle and easy going.

I may not know the exact dictionary deffination for it but have seen a lot of people called feminin or even made fun of for being feminin. It always is dysplaying the same charcteristics.

so really this word relates to girls more so because of there way of being kind gentle and patient. But that doesnt mean a guy cannot do so the same. That does not make him unequal nor does it make the girl unequal.

 

[kds1980]

Ishna ji, all the things you relate to femininity are derived from the media and culture. If you had been born to a different culture, your perception would be different. In the BBC show Human Planet, they showed tribes in Africa where it is up to the man to dress up and impress the women rather than the other way around

Men in all cultures dress up to impress women.Infact it is one of the sole reason Men try to look good.When they are not in business of impressing women men dress up very badly.On the other hand If you look at women then Girls from age 12 to older women try to look at as good as they can.I don't think a Girl of age of 12 or 60 year old woman dress up just to impress men .

 

[Astroboy]

so really this word relates to girls more so because of there way of being kind gentle and patient.

Absolutely correct. It is ingrained in female instinct to be more caring. Sociobiologist from Harward University, Edward O. Wilson has observed that women are more empathetic and security seeking than men and have more developed verbal and social skills. In comparison, men tend to be more independent, aggressive and dominant and demonstrate greater spartial and mathematical skills.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Absolutely correct. It is ingrained in female instinct to be more caring. Sociobiologist from Harward University, Edward O. Wilson has observed that women are more empathetic and security seeking than men and have more developed verbal and social skills. In comparison, men tend to be more independent, aggressive and dominant and demonstrate greater spartial and mathematical skills.

In my generation, amongst those fighting for women's equality it was a must-believe tenet of faith that boys and girls were really the same aside from a few differences, mostly in the genitals. If girls were given trucks to play with and boys were given baby dolls, girls would develop "masculine" traits and boys would develop "feminine" traits.

When parents actually tried these experiments on their own children, what a surprise! Little girls would cuddle and nurture their Tonka trucks and little boys would rough house and even tear apart the baby dolls. Now, of course, we know that there are huge differences between the female and male brains. We have learned that these traits really are biologically ingrained. Females are hard-wired to be nurturers, males to be protectors. Of course, there are exceptions to this, and most humans have both sets of these traits to some degree, but they do fit the overwhelming majority of humans.

We sometimes surprise even ourselves. I was always expected to be able to do anything a man could do (except father a child, of course). It was expected that, like my brothers, I would have a lucrative career getting immense satisfaction from making gobs of money. In fact, by far the happiest, most fulfilling part of my life was when I was a wife and mother at home running our little farm, cooking and cleaning and raising our child. And milking the goats. I have since had a nice career, making money and doing what was expected of me by my family until I had the first stroke and was unable to be an effective breadwinner.

I have always felt like a woman to myself. I like my woman's body and my woman's brain and all that goes with that. I am sad that most women, especially Sikh women, are trapped in a long outdated patriarchal social system that doesn't allow them to develop anything like their full potential. When that system is overcome - and it will be - only then will we see femininity in full bloom. I am most impatient for that day!

I eagerly await the day that my Punjabi sisters will sing - and mean - this song which became the anthem of the Women's Movement in the Western world in the 1970s. We still have a long way to go, but let us not forget how far we have come. Singhnis of Punjab, Guru ji sanctions our equality. Let us now claim it, so we can be, inside and out, the beautiful strong, intelligent, feminine women we were made to be.

Now, let us sing. The words are on screen, for those who don't know them

YouTube - Helen Reddy - I am woman (with lyrics on the screen)

 

[dushanka]

Who is keeping a Sikh woman no matter Amritdhari or not Amritdhari away from tying a lady's turban , it is looking soooo great and its most practical if you have a job like i have !!!! There are so many colour options like rainbow !!!!
Also you can use both a great colourful chunni and turban ...
Think about ,
It looks great 100%
Even with long head hair you can do a lot , there are endless possibilities .

A woman's beauty is anyway shining from inside ....all other cultures have forgot that ...All are running after some model creations which are looking more like artifficial ...:happykaur:animatedkhanda1 SAT SRI AKAL

 

[Astroboy]

A woman's beauty is anyway shining from inside ...

...and I want to add more to this statement. You need to enjoy being you. If you like yourself and exhibit the inner confidence, people will take more of a shine to you. It’s common sense that men are drawn to a woman who seems to enjoy life. Of course it's easier said than done. Nobody is born as a pro doing these things. We all have to develop the skills to make conversation interesting. And there are more things you'll be shocked to what men are actually interested in. The commercialized versions are far from it.

 

[findingmyway]

As mentioned by Harwinder ji there is more emphasis on males getting in touch with their feminine side. Conversely in my house my father isn't good with DIY-it's done by my mother. Does that make my father less masculine or my mother less feminine? Not at all! I think these examples show that real femininity (or masculinity) is from the inside rather than displayed on the outside.

Earlier in the thread an example was given of a lady wearing hijab and make up. To me this is not femininity but hypocrisy. The purpose of the hijab is for modesty and to reduce lustful thoughts in men. If a woman is then going to attract attention by using makeup and jewellery it seems contradictory. I find the appearance of a woman wearing a turban with heavily manicured eyebrows, lots of make up and jewellery equally contradictory but for different reasons. External femininity will be heavily influenced by the culture you grow up with so cannot be universal.

Now I would like to propose a question. How does defining femininity help? Maybe this will help with understanding what kind of information you are hoping to learn

 

[Ambarsaria]

findingmyway ji perhaps we can adopt an alternative methodology too. Why don't the females try to define what is masculinity. For all common understanding, femininity is the antonym in general.

Let us say I can identify a couple of characteristic in men,

• Impressed by looks
• Bad listeners in general
  • Example:
  • I was watching the dating show (pretty trashy but nevertheless) and the host made a very interesting comment. The show alternates with one man choosing from three women one day and the next day a woman picking a man from three men.
    • He said that the men trying to select a women would do so within the first ten seconds of seeing the women
    • He said that the women on the other hand would listen to much of the show before deciding.

Any comments if it helps in this thread or hinders and I can delete.

Regards.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[dushanka]

Findingmyway -ji , Sat Sri Akal ,

Of course your example a woman wearing turban plus tons of make up etc... etc.. is a big contradictory . My own example above is just simple me , myself ...I wanted to say
that Sikh woman have more possibilities to look great , without to jump over to islamistic way of styling . I for myself wear my turban mostly at work because for me it is most practical thing . As my job has to do with food , so i am always perfect styled. Depands where and if the woman is working a little bit lipp gloss does not look bad .
My own case is i can not use anything else except face hydro cream . Make up and those kind of things i have never used ... Beauty comes 100% from INSIDE .
A woman can wear greatest cosmetics & dresses but most interesting is the situation after she opens her mouth and talks... what is she saying , what is the way of her moves , what is the way of her thinking ... For men i would say there is almost the same thing , which use of a Narcissus ?

 

[Ishna]

kds1980 ji,

with your mention of other female Sikh role models in Sikh history, it just came to mind the book "Twenty Nobel and Brave Sikh Women" by Retired Principal Sawan Singh. I have the 2005 hard cover edition, there is a more recent 2011 digital edition. It is a good reference and short stories on these women starting from Bebe Guru Nanaki ji.

In the hard cover edition there are very beautiful paintings rendering different high points in each Kaur's bio.

The sole purpose of this book, the author notes, was to bring awareness of all these Kaur role models...have to dig it up again and re-read it.-thanks!

Found the digital version on Scribd: Noble and Brave sikh women

Sat Sri Akal

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

female Sikh role models in Sikh history

Isi Ji who was the role model of the first role model?Is faith a feminine or masculine endeavour? God willing I wish you and all 100% attendance in the class of 2012 ,may we be always be a mixed School of life.
Shania Twain - Man! I Feel Like A Woman - YouTube

 

[Ishna]

SP bhaji, presumably as women evolved we did what came naturally to us without much fuss for the rest, but as our brains and awareness grew (as we consumed the Apple of Knowledge perhaps?) our minds became more complex and the ideas around sexuality, looks, behaviour were expanded and became more detailed. I think what we have now is probably an over-thought and over-complexified (haha) idea of sexuality.

So I guess we just need to 'feel like a woman' to figure it out! (the women, not you sp veer ji! :grinningkudi

 

[HGNIS]

I'm probably not the right person to ask because I have never been a girly-girl. I was never interested in frilly clothes, make-up, giggling and all that. As for high-heeled shoes, well, forget it! I admit they look nice and I am just toooooo short, but I have too much respect for my back to mess with those. Please bear in mind that I am just one woman and one kind of woman, thankfully unencumbered by the baggage of the Punjabi patriarchy.

I have never really cared much what I look like. As long as I am neat and clean and decently covered and comfortable, I'm happy. All of this sort of stuff is external femininity and it isn't important to me. I am a woman. I am a strong woman. I am a strong Sikh woman and I like it. I think feminine strength can be different than masculine. I could never lift as much as my husband; I wouldn't even try to match his physical strength. However, I could easily best him in agility and endurance.

Also, the rules for Khalsa woman are more strict than for non-Khalsa. There is, however, nothing in the SRM that prohibits Khalsa women from wearing make-up, if they choose. Personally, I would rather they didn't, but that is my preference.

From earliest childhood, I was taught to defend myself. (I had 7 older brothers; that in itself is a great teacher!) Mai Bhago was held up as my role model. But I am not all fighting warrior. The greatest joy in my life was being the wife of a hyper-masculine, alpha male (the real thing, not a macho fool prancing around putting on a show). My second greatest joy was being a mother. Really. I was completely surprised by how much I enjoyed being a mom. I do not want to go into that right now, just to say it was wonderful.

I don't think femininity is any one thing. It is mostly how I think of myself. I have always strongly identified with my womanhood and loved it. It does not make me weak or dependent. I think we have a lot of overcoming to do because of the patriarchal Punjabi system we are stuck in. That's another topic though.

To me, being a woman, being feminine doesn't mean being weak or simpering. I am as feminine in my own way as the most dedicate hot house blossom. I think Sikh women are called upon to be stronger than most non-Sikh women. If we didn't have it in us, Guru wqouldn't ask it of us.

Indulge me a bit, please and let me reproduce one of my favourite statements on being a woman. Dear Sojourner Truth, 1851.



With an attitude like that, old Sojourner would have made a great Sikh, I think.

YouTube - Alfre Woodard reads Sojourner Truth

Huge respect for quoting Sojourner Truth. Great post overall.