Are Creator And Creation The Same In Sikhism?

[Ozarks]

I'm interested in exploring this concept of duality. By that do we mean that we should go beyond "is" and "is not"? Beyond Self and Other?

Would appreciate your thoughts!

Danielle Ji,
Let us try to see if my perspective can be of some assistance to you.
Lets approach our understanding in an incremental manner.
Was there a time before Creation when God existed and yet nothing else did?
If so we have our starting point. Lets go into a theory that Albert Einstein has been given much created to proving with his famous E=MC2 formula. Without getting too technical or going off on semantics matter/mass/energy are all tied together and while they may change/be transmuted they may not be created or destroyed. If this is true we have our next step on the road to understanding. That step is this: where did everything come from. The answer is: from God. As in from God in a very real sense. The Creator gave of himself that Creation may exist. For if nothing else existed then there was nothing else to work with except the "energy" from the Creator. In this sense everything is made of the Creator... and yet the Creator is more than Creation as explained in my first post in this thread.
This Creator/Creation relationship is the reason why we must go beyond traditional/empirical measures of what "is" and "is not" of "self" and "other". As we are of the Creator and yet may choose to ignore that; we are both. As the Creator is a part of everything and apart from everything; He is both.

I hope this helps.

 

[susan]

Sangat Ji
What is the message of this shabad?

God is everywhere and in every life force.

 

[spnadmin]

Nice that there is a discussion of a shabad. Discussion is relevant to shabad and shabad relevant to thread means the discussion is relevant to the thread and all iis relevant to Sikhi.

 

[BhagatSingh]

God is everywhere and in every life force.

and how does the author reach this conclusion?

 

[Satyaban]

Namaste

I don't know a Punjabi greeting for a group so I went the way I did be cause I it is safe and not offensive to say "I recognize God in all of you."
Although it is used as a catchall greeting today.

I was attracted to this site while knowing very little about Sikhi I thought we had much in common and still believe so.

I was raised in a Christian family my paternal grandparents were Catholics from Germany and my maternal grandmother was a Methodist but my mother is a Southern Baptist but Christians all.

I started having problems with all of that after I started school and learned some science. I became perplexed by the events claimed that flew in the face of natural law like the "great flood and the Ark", "Adam and Eve" and so on. I had no belief in a devil but I had a firm belief in a creator and wanted wanted contact. Like some others LSD opened up the possibilities of altered states of consciousness and my world changed.

I attended a lecture by Baba Ram Dass, read Autobiography of A Yogi and later joined The Self Realization Fellowship and I was on my way.

I have in the past learned much more and had great experiences. All I have learned I already knew but I had lost contact with it like having a ream of paper between a light bulb and my eyes. As I removed obstacles like sheets of paper I could see the light better. I had to dump anger, selfishness, put ego in its place along with lust, greed and attachment all of which I am still working on but I rarely get angry and it is gone in seconds.

I have no problem at all with the potter also being the clay. I have had conversation with some Muslims who have a problem with it. They looked upon God as separate from his creation and could not see the divinity in creation as I do. It is also well known many of them see things in polar opposites that is either good or hateful without much inbetween.

I believe that seen, unseen, and the spaces inbetween, from the infinitesimally small to the infinitely big is a constant manifestation of Lord Shiva, my name for the Absolute use your own, and the essence of Lord Shiva. This comes natural to me I did not need to learn this from anyone but I have to say that confirmation was reassuring.

Bhagat ji asked of Susan ji "and how does the author reach this conclusion?" which I will apply to myself although he was referring to a shabad which is light years beyond my humble offering.
As I have mentioned before perhaps elsewhere we are born with a priori knowledge which I believe is "God consciousness". It is there most are not aware of it but it whispers to us in altered states of consciousness, maybe chanting, dreaming, when in extreme pain, in our mythologies but there are those who go there in samadhi everyday. Susan ji said "God is everywhere and in every life force" which I would amend to read "God is everywhere and God is the life force."

Again I say this is what I believe I have no empirical evidence and am not trying to influence anyone else. I love speaking about it but not debating or arguing because it is faith and all faiths deserve respect. After all aren't we all on a spiritual path?

Always Peace
Satyaban

 

[susan]

and how does the author reach this conclusion?

Bahgat Ji I cannot answer this question. My answer was merely my own understanding. Sant Kabir Ji's knowledge on God surpasses mine by many lifetimes.
Alot of what I understand in Gurbani I am not able to express to others. I consider this my ignorance and pray to Almighty that I may be blessed one day with the knowledge to further explain and discuss my understanding.
Perhaps someone with more Gian (spiritual knowledge) from this forum could answer this one.

Bhull Chuuk Maaf Karna

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bahgat Ji I cannot answer this question. My answer was merely my own understanding. Sant Kabir Ji's knowledge on God surpasses mine by many lifetimes.
Alot of what I understand in Gurbani I am not able to express to others. I consider this my ignorance and pray to Almighty that I may be blessed one day with the knowledge to further explain and discuss my understanding.
Perhaps someone with more Gian (spiritual knowledge) from this forum could answer this one.

Bhull Chuuk Maaf Karna

Susan ji and Satyaban ji thank you for your replies.

History shows us that the knowledge of man is growing day by day, and so I believe that it is possible for one to gain more knowledge than the historical celebrities that we all come to admire, with all due respect. people like Bhagat Kabir ji or even Guru Nanak Dev Ji...

About Bhagat Kabir's shabad, I dont think the message was "God is everywhere and in every life force." I think the message was put forth in the form of a question:So who is good, and who is bad?
It has to do with the fear of the unknown!
The "anxiety and fear" that Kabir Sahib mentions later on are referring to the feelings one gets when one thinks about the "other guy" or "guy from different religion". Its the fear of the unknown. We usually label the unknown as something BAD and evil!
The idea is that the unknown "clay" or person contains the very familiar God, so "the other" is not unknown anymore but much familiar like the God inside.
and so Kabir goes on that once you "see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere", your "anxiety and fear have [will be] been taken away".
He asks that if the Unknown "welled up" from the same light as you did, is it really bad?

Back then people did not know how the world came to be. This was( and still is in many parts of the world) the prevalent creation myth of the time: First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
We know better!
Kabir ji is also referring to the Creator and the Creation arguements that we now know to be false: "It looks designed therefore it must be designed, by a Designer." Kabir ji used figure of speech and calls the Designer, Potter; and the design, clay materials.


"Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation"
- Follows up with the creation myth, and the only reason I can see why it's there, is to make you understand that you should not be afraid of the unknown, "the other".
Interpreting it literally, would be taking it as a fact, which it is clearly not.

 

[Ozarks]

BhagatSingh Ji,
I am afraid that I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the shabad.

"About Bhagat Kabir's shabad, I dont think the message was "God is everywhere and in every life force." I think the message was put forth in the form of a question:So who is good, and who is bad?
It has to do with the fear of the unknown!"

With this quote:
ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab thaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

I believe the point is that all things are related through Creator and tied to the Will of God.

"Back then people did not know how the world came to be. This was( and still is in many parts of the world) the prevalent creation myth of the time: First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
We know better!"

Allow me, if you will, to share with you my view on this passage which is similar to Genesis in the Bible.

Imagine you are in the universe before creation takes place. Off in the distance you may "see" a presence. It may look like a star. (This being in reference to the Creator being self illuminating.) This presence is the one that will be called the Creator. In an otherwise empty universe. Then a mighty flash and a wave of light is thrown out of the star like an exploding supernova. That wave is energy, as all light is is a visible wave length of energy. That energy coalesces and forms pools of energy which become matter, which becomes the physical universe. Within this universe resides the framework of the Creators Will for the Creation. (the Asatru look at that like Orlog - the "original law" laid at the foundation of the universe) That framework may be observed and are often called "Natural Laws". Through these "laws" the Will of the Creator for the Creation takes place in its own time and a reasonable predictable manner.

Of course what I describe is what scientists call the Big Band. However it is not devoid of Spirituality when viewed with the heart of a seeker.

 

[Satyaban]

Ozarks ji

I have to mention my take on the moment of creation. I don't think there was an empty "universe", rather than say there was nothing I will say there was only a singularity which contained even the vastness of space or the universe. Was this God yes but I believe there are two other astral worlds and that is God also.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Ozarks]

Namaste Satyaban ji,

I too don't believe the universe was empty. I believe that there was the Emptiness (non-being) and God. At some point God (I am attempting to use a generic term there.) came to the conclusion that "more" was necessary. (I have some potentially interesting ideas as to why this conclusion was reached if you would like to plumb those depths sometime.) That was when God created the universe from the only thing that existed at that time and that was God. The energy of God expanded out and from that energy the universe was formed. It was at this moment of creation, at the moment when that awesome amount of power/energy was released upon the Emptiness that dimensions were created (or rather fractured from the original). This is where the astral worlds/planes/dimensions reside.

 

[Satyaban]

Ozark ji

I don't believe there was emptiness either, everything was in the singularity. It is impossible to imagine that is to picture in the mind and almost impossible to consider. All of that mass the size of a dot on a piece of paper that reached the point of critical mass.

It is my belief and great saints and gurus have said that Lord Siva, or God your choice it does not matter to me, has created and absorbed thousands of universes and they all may not have been the same.

I am interested in how you reached your conclusion.

Om shanti shanti
Satyaban

 

[BhagatSingh]

BhagatSingh Ji,
I am afraid that I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the shabad.

"About Bhagat Kabir's shabad, I dont think the message was "God is everywhere and in every life force." I think the message was put forth in the form of a question:So who is good, and who is bad?
It has to do with the fear of the unknown!"

With this quote:
ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab thaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

I believe the point is that all things are related through Creator and tied to the Will of God.

That's what it says and I agree with you. But is it that the message?
No, its a method
AS I have previously stated:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...r-and-creation-same-sikhism-3.html#post109568

"Back then people did not know how the world came to be. This was( and still is in many parts of the world) the prevalent creation myth of the time: First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
We know better!"

Allow me, if you will, to share with you my view on this passage which is similar to Genesis in the Bible.

Imagine you are in the universe before creation takes place.

Why do you say there was a creation??

Off in the distance you may "see" a presence. It may look like a star. (This being in reference to the Creator being self illuminating.)

So God is a star? or star like thing?

This presence is the one that will be called the Creator. In an otherwise empty universe. Then a mighty flash and a wave of light is thrown out of the star like an exploding supernova. That wave is energy, as all light is is a visible wave length of energy. That energy coalesces and forms pools of energy which become matter, which becomes the physical universe. Within this universe resides the framework of the Creators Will for the Creation. (the Asatru look at that like Orlog - the "original law" laid at the foundation of the universe) That framework may be observed and are often called "Natural Laws". Through these "laws" the Will of the Creator for the Creation takes place in its own time and a reasonable predictable manner.

Of course what I describe is what scientists call the Big Band. However it is not devoid of Spirituality when viewed with the heart of a seeker.

I dont know how the bible came to such conclusions and where these conclusions are mentioned, please provide references.

Here's info on Big Bang: Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (1 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (2 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (3 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (4 of 5)
YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (5 of 5)

 

[harbansj24]

Satyabanji,

I will repeat what I had said earlier, that man can never acquire capability to get to the ultimate truth and define HIM completely (or even its near about). Even hypothetically, if we assume he does acquire it then that will be the end of mankind's present form!

Yes of co{censored} we should keep trying and in the process we will continue discover, invent and progress but however much man may continue, he obviously cannot hit the infinite!

 

[Satyaban]

harbansj24 ji

I don't think you will get a debate from me on that. What is beyond our conception is just that.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Ozarks]

Satyaban Ji,

I must admit to having a hard time with a single dimensional point of creation. That would seem to mean that at the point of creation God "pulled away" in order to create the space/dimension in which Creation would exist in. The reason why I say this is that while the Will of God is pervasive throughout Creation there would be no room for freedom-of-will if some level of "non-god" delineation did not exist.

BhagatSingh Ji,

"Why do you say there was a creation??"
I feel that Creation is fairly self-evident. While I can understand the theory behind and accidental universe the level of diversity tends to be more artistic than accident.

"So God is a star? or star like thing?"
My poor attempt at allegory I'm afraid. I am just address the concepts of 'God being self illuminating' and the absence of God being a darkness.

"I dont know how the bible came to such conclusions and where these conclusions are mentioned, please provide references."
I feel I must not of made myself clear. I apologies for that. No, the part of the Bible (Genesis chapter 1) to which I was referring was that God created light and then Creation. That paralleling the quote:

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh bandhae ||
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

I apologize for the confusion.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/harbansj24.html

 

[Satyaban]

Ozarks ji

My previous comments on creation are pertinent to the current universe and perhaps previous ones but not the first. It has been said that Lord Shiva created the universe as a sort of game where he would hide himself deep in the hearts of creation and have his sentient being find him. It does kinda put our lives in perspective compared to the immensity of the universe and rebirth.

Because we live in this temporal world of time and space we can not apply our senses to anything else. All our senses do is confirm this temporal world, but we can consider that the atman resides somewhere after shedding one physical body and before picking up another. I do not believe it to be a place but a state of being on another plane.

Anyway this is what I think and believe. I am not trying to influence anyone or anything like that.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

Satyaban ji

I do not see why you should have to be on the defensive in the conversation at all. :yes:

 

[Satyaban]

NK ji (I hope that is OK)

Are you speaking about my disclaimer? I threw that in as an afterthought. I like to speak about such matters but not really debate them as often happened on a Muslim web site where I was a member with over 8,000 post before being banned for 25 years.
I know that wouldn't happen here but it doesn't hurt to be clear in intent.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

25 years :wink: sounds kind of harsh. what did you say?:shifty:

 

[Satyaban]

Sister

It don't think it was one post but a combination of factors. Shiachat is very Iran-centric and the dominating while not bring wahhabis or salafis believe Iran can do no wrong. Along with that comes no tolerance for criticism of Khamenei and near complete excuse making for Ahmadinejad. Most often they said that Ahmad was poorly translated like they were the only people who understood Farsi. Furthermore every piece of news coverage that appears is untrue and a part of a conspiracy of Iran's enemies which is almost everyone but usually the Israelis and CIA or MKO or Free Masons or USA or UK and it goes on. The most astonishing thing is most of these people with a fire in their bellies live in the West and none in Iran. Of course I pointed this out many times over 5 years.

As far as my being banned for what amounts to life:rofl!!:what I think broke the camels back is my statements like "I can't understand how people who believe in all of these conspiracy theories can survive and live day too day" meaning they are incredibly stupid. I still have a low tolerance of absurdity. I must add that there are also many people that I liked at Shiachat and I still go there as a visitor when I want to be frustrated and astonished. You should pay a visit to their more political forums.

I have joined another Shia site that is very liberal and progressive.

Peace to you and your family
Satyaban