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Are We Making Lame Excuses?

Oct 16, 2009
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Re: Kaur Power

.
Keeping Turban and beard also show committment to faith infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.

dear brother kanwardeep singh,

well this is a common thinking which people have developed over time i know a lot of people coming from amritdhari families who are sardars but they smoke(some of them),drink and love visiting courtesan's which i don't understand. they are good bcz they are sardars and we clean shaven who read and listen gurbani are "patit" they are the gem of community and we are the bad face by which law i will never understand.
 

kds1980

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Kanwardeep ji
I gave you the reasons why those kaurs chose clean shaven men. Seems its hard for you to understand, I'll explain it other way. If when you are growing up a dog of a particular breed is aggressive towards you and bites you, when you are old enough to get your own would you go out and buy a dog of that breed or would you get yourself a dog of what appears to be a less aggressive breed. Doesnt mean that the dog of your choose isnt going to bite you. These girls grew up in a traditional family enviroment and their experiences where they were treated less favourably to there brothers, none where subject to physical abuse but all where subject to mental abuse, pressure was put on them to conform to the old ways of the girl doing her duties. threats of disownment, not being allowed out of the house without a brother with them. they watched there older sisters in loveless marriages being disrespected, they chose not to follow them and because of their choice they where disowned. they didnt disown their families it was the families that disowned them, they didnt disown Sikhi, It was the Sikhs who disowned the girls, name calling, old friends not being allowed to talk to them, sisters not even acknowledging them in the streets. darent go to the Gudwara because of the gossiping about them. They didnt do anything anti-Sikh, Yet Sikhs refuse to acknowledge them.

Tony ji

I do understand your point.The large number of sikh families in US,UK and canada are clean shaven and whatever oppression you have written happen in their families so if a sikh girl irrespective of whether wearing turban or not refuses to marry a punjabi sikh boy then I can understand but how could it be justified that a girl that is oppressed in clean shaven sikh family refuse's to marry a turbaned sikh boy but not clean shaven punjabi sikh boy.
 

kds1980

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Re: Kaur Power

dear brother kanwardeep singh,

well this is a common thinking which people have developed over time i know a lot of people coming from amritdhari families who are sardars but they smoke(some of them),drink and love visiting courtesan's which i don't understand. they are good bcz they are sardars and we clean shaven who read and listen gurbani are "patit" they are the gem of community and we are the bad face by which law i will never understand.

No one is saying that those sardars are gem .In many families the social pressure on sikh boys to wear turban is killing so they can't discard their turbans.One need to be extremely rebelious in these type of families to discard it.
 

kds1980

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Kanwardeep ji
will answer very quickly for now as got to leave for work. simply put they didnt marry clean shaven panjabi boy , they went for white boys,
Tony

Well I heard this that many asian girls marry white boys for this reason and if the reason is genuine then Its ok but the discussion is about rejection of turbaned sikh boys for sole reason because they wear turban by some sikh girls.
 

kds1980

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Btw tony ji here is the one thought provoking ariticle

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly...opinion/opedcolumnists/melting_not_159550.htm

MELTING NOT

By RAAKHEE MIRCHANDANI


March 14, 2009 --

Growing up, the man in my dreams was a mystery; he was white, he was tall, he was dark, he was slick. He was always handsome. In my fantasy it didn't matter if he was Catholic or Muslim, European or African, if he ate pigs or worshipped monkeys. It didn't matter if he understood that I came from a rich tradition of Indian Hindus who were strict vegetarians, quietly conservative, obsessively dedicated to family and maniacal in their love for cheesy song-and-dance movies with mediocre acting and music.

And so when we met, freshman year at Boston University - the street smart Eastern European with a gorgeous smile, big heart and wicked sense of humor and the artsy Indian girl with a penchant for big hair, Bollywood and Biggie -it seemed like the perfect cross-continental match.

But somewhere along our six years together, the Indian girl from Jersey, who had naively promised him Catholic children, steak dinners and consistently defended his refusal to hang with my family as a simple difference in opinion, had a change of heart. And he did, too.

I remember him looking at me on an evening not far from our last and saying, "It's like all of a sudden you became Indian." In a way so quiet I didn't even realize it was happening, the brown from my skin must have seeped in and colored my heart.

Surprisingly, I'm not the only one. While the rate of intermarriage among races increased over the past half-century, the last decade has seen a reversal - particularly among Asians and Latinos. According to a Ohio State University study, from 1990-2000 the number of Hispanics marrying outside their race fell from 27% to 20%, while Asian intermarriage dropped from 42% to 33%.

After brushing it off for so long, many of my relatives and friends are listening to that nagging voice in our collective heads. You know, the one that sounds like a hybrid of your mom/dad/grandparent/aunt/uncle/neighbor-in-the-old-country telling you in heavily accented English, "Have you found anyone yet, dahling? Can we introduce you to Mr. Kapoor's son? He is doctor. Ven vill you finally give us good news?" Despite my better efforts to buck the traditional Indian girl inside me - glossy black locks turned to bleached blond in a weak moment of teen angst; pre-med was never an undergraduate option and much to my parents chagrin; I have always favored copious amounts of worthless costume jewels over precious museum-grade family heirlooms - I discovered that I'm not really that much of a rebel after all.

During the Obama campaign, commentators asked if younger people were growing up in a colorblind society. I certainly hope it's a more tolerant one - but not blind. Living in harmony doesn't mean camouflaging our differences, or denying that we have any. And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship - love in whatever way it comes is flawless - I know that I could never do it again.

Relationships are hard enough, no matter who you love. Maintaining and sustaining them requires a combination of courage, compromise and dedication. But there's a comfort in building a solid foundation with someone who comes from a similar place. I don't want to have to explain the minutia of my complex culture, hoping for both understanding and approval. I want to begin on equal footing, roots already firmly planted in a common garden.

I'm the kind of girl who is as comfortable worshipping multi-armed deities as she is worshipping at Chanel. The kind who can easily wrap herself in to a 5-yard sari in a public bathroom but much prefers Uggs and leggings. Certainly the kind who washes down a spicy curry with a glass of Johnny on the rocks. That makes me Indian and American, and the truth is, it's easier when someone understands the first part of that as much as the latter.

So now I've taken the UPS approach to dating: What can brown do for me?

More than I ever thought.

My current boyfriend, Agan, is the kind of Punjabi prince dreams are made of. He held me last year when Bombay burned and I broke. He high-fived me when "Slumdog" took home eight golden trophies and I squealed. He rolls his eyes when I talk about Yankee Stadium like it's The Bronx version of the Golden Temple. He's from the left (wrong) coast, you see; not everything can be Disney fairytales.

But he understands without questioning that I will live at home with my parents until I get married. That family obligations trump any evening plans we may have made. Without my suggesting it, he mentioned that when we grew up and had a house of our own, there would be room for both sets of parents, his and mine. I was enamored.

In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.

In less than a year he has earned his way into my parents' hearts, fielding near daily text messages and e-mails from my mother, approving but curious glances from my father and even joining my brother in a weekly basketball league. It's as if they already knew each other. And in a way they did.

Despite the countries we share, we are still different. His family is Sikh. He wears a turban. Mine are Hindu and we don't accessorize. But the fundamentals are the same; family first and everything else next.

As usual my parents were right, bless their darling immigrant hearts. It turns out I am both New Delhi and New Jersey, and the man in my dreams finally has a face to reflect that.

Raakhee Mirchandani is a features reporter for The Post.

Raakhee-thumb


Rakhee with her Boyfriend
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Tony Ji..
The topic has been covered umpteen times by your good self and Grewal sahib.
There are almost NO "threads" or posters who say or Quote Gurbani One liners to justify keeping KESH..quite on the opposite side some have made it a Life time Cross to bear..they write and keep on writing abstracts after abstracts of ONE LINERS to somehow justify their own lack of Kesh.( BTW Sikhi has no Crosses to carry.But soem go out of their way to find one..in this case how to justify that Guru nanak- and His successors..and all the Bhagats, Sheikhs etc in SGGS... ji didnt keep long hair and never wore dastaar ...and they spend a life time looking for "one liner Gurbani Tuks" to twist them around...sooner than later people find the truth...)
The SGGS DOESNT SAY no kesh required for spirituality..thats a GRoss Misrepresentation/twisting of Gurbani. One can bring in the HAIR/KESH question under different threads..its still the same Lame Blame Game....no one is forcing anyone to keep kesh..or kaur..or singh..or being called anything...its ones own self "trying" to justify to others..or ones self..The SGGS you are reading must be made up of one liners quoted in the Abstracts...becasue the one I know and read daily has no such thing.
So essentially we are comparing Apples with Oranges..so there is no contest. You are perfectly welcome to whatever "sutainable" reasons you have.Period.
Regards:happykaur:
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tony ji,

Guru Fateh.

I hope you remember that you and I have had the same discussions on our many PM's exchanges and in your last PM to me regarding the subject, you said you understood what I meant and the importance of Kesh.

It seems, you have forgotten our interaction.

Let me repeat the saying again which I have done several times before in this forum as it deserves repeating," Good actions need no reasons where as bad actions require a lot of justifications".

No one has told you not to read the SGGS, our ONLY GURU till you keep hair. No one has told you not to go to the Gurdwara and enjoy the Keertan and Langer because you do not keep hair. No one has asked you to give up your Sikh wife because of the same reason.

So, please STOP keep on justifying about why you do not keep hair and find reasons within what the true meaning of love is.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

tony

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Tejwant ji
I have forgotten nothing, Ive only reiterated my own personal reason for not havng hair, My own children both keep their hair, its their choice, I didnt even bring it up nor was my original post anything to do with hair, it was in Kaur power and I was giving examples of why certain girls have chosen to go against their family wish of an arranged marriage, I was speaking out against the cruelty they suffered as a result, I'm then told that they are just lame excuses when in actual fact they are real problems within the Sikh community. I havent said that abuse doesnt happen in England in other communities, it does, Difference being that over here we are trying to do something about it, its only recently that women are being treated more as equals, thing is Sikhs should have had an extra 400 yrs or so head start on us, but they choice to follow panjabi cultural ways. Sorry if it offends but these girls need no justification for their actions, if they see Sikhism as the root of the problem then its because traditional Sikhs have treated them this way. The justification or lame excuse for this treatment is from the Sikhs who believe in IZZAT.
As for you Gyani ji please show me where I have used gurbani oneliners in my defence for no hair, I think if you look back it is your self who has twisted gurbani and used one liners in support of your Kesh, and IF SGGS does state the need for Kesh then why havent you given me the page that its on. PERIOD.
Kanwardeep ji
I'm very pleased to see the Sikh boy with the hindu girl, Ive seen several sikh men at the Gudwara with white women, there doesnt seem to be a problem that way round. Yet my wife is an outcast for marrying a white man., a shaven one at that. At the panjabi school there was alot of gossiping , when at home and her friend left to be with a white boy she says that her parents, family and the rest of the community where insulting her left right and centre. So your choice of example has only high lighted the inequality there is, Sorry if this has offended you Kanwardeep ji but there is a need to high light any inequality.
Tony
 
Feb 19, 2007
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Tony ji,

IMHO your anger is uncalled for. It happens everywhere not just among the Sikhs. If a person chooses to marry against the wishes of the parents or the community, he/she has to face a period of hostility(and has to be prepared for it) which may or not subside with time depending on the circumstances.

Unfortunately the debate on Kaur power got diverted to whether Sikhs keeping hair or cutting it (either way) are good, bad or ugly! And who should marry or not marry them!

Just once more:

  • In a discussion on "Kaur power", is the surname Kaur necessary or not?
  • We have heard umpteen times that how lousy Sikhs wearing turban and keeping kesh can be. But we are still to get an answer on what are the barriers for a person who wants to be known as "a good Sikh" for keeping Kesh?
:happysingh::happykaur:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Look at all the Brave Kaurs and Singhs..on....Why I chose Sikhism...they give reasonable and entilely plausible "excuses" for chosing to be Singhs/Kaurs..

A Mother Theresa..id just that..MT..she doesnt have to give "excuses..lame or otherwise...
BUT thousands of Wannabe Mother Theresas who "FAILED" will have lamest of lame excuses on why they Failed to be MT's...

Similalry the Singhs and Kaurs who follow Sikhism as it is in the SGGS faithfully and proudly hardly have to give any "excuse"a s to WHY they wear dastaar..do nitnem..have singh/kaur in their name.wear the Kirpan, Karra Kacherra...etc etc...BUT thsoe who "CANNOT or DONT WANT to..do this soemhow feel .."bad..lower..less singhly/kaurly...whatever..and these people have to Constantly manufacture "excuses"..as to why..i dont have dastaar..i dotn have singh/kaur in my name..why i have a Caste title as my tail...why i dont cary the Kirpan..why i dont wear the karra..why i dont have a kacherra..etc etc...No body asks them..BUt they still feel obliged to give their side of the story..somehow so they can unload the guilt..whatever they feel..

Just like the Mother Theresa are few and far between.so are Singhs and Kaurs who do the needful...the MINORITY is the KHALSA..the MAJORITY never was...out of thousands five stood up..out of 80,000 only 20K took Pahul that day...20 out of 80 is just 25% !! Most probably it were the remaining 75% who were busy giving lame excuses...to explain why they DIDNT take Pahul...NOT the other way around...it was always like that....NO BIG DEAL.

2. Secondly we must avopid over geenralsiation...we cannot paint all with the same brush.....all "dastaree sardars" are evil//oppress their women etc etc is just as bad as saying all shavens are Angels who carry their women on their heads....Faulty Logic..and based on thin air...i have seen plenty of shaven heads beat their wives. murder their duaghters for daring to marry outside their HUKM..alcoholics, drunks, layabouts..whatever...the "lack of facial/head hair" is no Guarantee of an angel.:happykaur:
 

Astroboy

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Tony Ji,

From what I understand women, the way a man dresses is not top priority. So long as he is neat, tidy and well groomed, he is fine. Women don't have a problem with his attire. What women find attractive in a man (regardless of race) is his confidence. I have had success with women of all races because I have learnt how to be a confident dude.
If you need more info, check out Alpha Male Personality.
Here are a few interesting links that will tell you, that women need not be the decision maker but we guys can.
Most of the time, guys willingly give their powers away to a woman and a woman doesn't appreciate that.
It's because from a woman's point of view, you come too easy without a challenge, and she'll dump you like the previous guy.
What women want is a challenge, what women want is a man they can't control because that's where your rating will be high.
So have some backbone guys and keep your turbans on wherever you go.

How to Become an Alpha Male

How to Build Unstoppable Confidence When Talking to Women
 

kds1980

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Kanwardeep ji
I'm very pleased to see the Sikh boy with the hindu girl, Ive seen several sikh men at the Gudwara with white women, there doesnt seem to be a problem that way round. Yet my wife is an outcast for marrying a white man., a shaven one at that. At the panjabi school there was alot of gossiping , when at home and her friend left to be with a white boy she says that her parents, family and the rest of the community where insulting her left right and centre. So your choice of example has only high lighted the inequality there is, Sorry if this has offended you Kanwardeep ji but there is a need to high light any inequality.
Tony

Tony ji let me explain to you point by point as this discussion is diverted

No.1

All this discussion started when harbans ji said that there are some, sikh girls are giving advertisment of clean shaven sikh men and dropping kaur surname.The girls that do these Things do get married in punjabi sikh families with clean shaven sikh boys and they don't have problem with patriarchal culture.They only have problem with turbans and beards and that's why they specifically mention this in their matrimonial advertisement.If any girl say that she married a clean shaven sikh punjabi boy because the oppression they have seen in their family then she is making a lame excuse because their is nothing that supports this theory that clean shaven sikh punjabi boys are better husbands than turbaned punjabi sikhs
The sikh girls that get married to white men due to oppression they have seen is other issue

Point no.2

The example i have posted is to show that intermarriage in ASians have dropped and to show you that all Indian girls don't feel comfortable with white boys as It was mentioned in
article that how she felt more comfortable with Indian guy than her previous white B/F
coincidently that boy is turbaned sikh.You are a good husband but that does not mean
all white boys are model husbands and all punjabi men are bad.

Point no.3
I am sorry for your wife is insulted by her relatives.You can say this a drawback of Indian family system.
 

tony

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Kanwardeep ji
I personally havent accused all Turbaned men of abuse, in my post I stated that it was their own reasons for there choice, niether have I said that all white boys are perfect husbands. All my posts in Kaur power had nothing to do with hair only the treatment these girls have recieve by there families, None of the girls have actually dropped the name Kaur my wife included. She was born a Kaur and will die a Kaur. My part in the original thread was to protest at the inequalities that still exist in Sikhism and state that it has no part in Sikhism, As for the other issues I apologise for being brought into another stupid argument over hair, I care nothing for it nor ever will, its a personal choice based I believe on your own upbringing and perception of whats required to be a good Sikh. thank you most sincerely for point 3, it means alot when someone accepts that its unfair,
take care Kanwardeep ji and may God bless you and your family
Tony
P.S. Just for Gyani ji have alook at the may june issue of the Sikh Bulleton and read the articles the significance of kes in the sikh religion and the following article defining a Sikh. Please post your views I'm very interested in them
 

Astroboy

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What do Sikh Men Look for in a Woman?

What women want is a challenge, what women want is a man they can't control because that's where your rating will be high.
So have some backbone guys and keep your turbans on wherever you go.

How to Become an Alpha Male

How to Build Unstoppable Confidence When Talking to Women
I almost feel I'm talking to the wind because no guy is owning up that he lacks the confidence. Believe me guys, I've been there. I assumed alot of things because during my time, it was arranged marriage. So I didn't have to learn all these things. So I guess your folks didn't teach you these things either.

But that does not mean, you're NOT facing the problem by ignoring it. See, we Sardars (with Turbans) have everything going for us, but we don't value it - why ? Because we do not know we're sitting on a goldmine. Instead, we are giving up our royal rights for a can of beer and women with a life style.

Yogi Bhajan dealt with women with life styles and transformed them to Khalsa. Question to ask - why did they give up their life style ? Wasn't it full of fun and glamour?

It would be great to know!!
 

spnadmin

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I think you are right about confidence in short supply, NamJap ji. And the idea of a new thread is A1.

But why didn't you start it yourself? OK - I will do the needful. You may lack ? :idea:
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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Namjap ji says

It would be great to know (this could go to a new thread with heading) What do Sikh men look for in a woman?

Would it ever! I think this is a great idea.

I do have a slight amending suggestion. Sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander and all that, might we include the opposite and ask, What do Sikhs look for in a spouse? Or would that give are good sardars too much wiggle room?

:ice:
 
Oct 16, 2009
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kanwar,
i feel that long hairs have become a good mask for some to hide behind their sinful deeds i do not intend to raise my finger at all the sardars and i am sorry if I'm insulting Sikhism but what is there in having long hairs does that makes us look like Sikh? no the Guru wanted to give us a different identity so that we may look apart in thousands and if by our personality and actions we can make ourselves look apart from millions i don't think we need to have hairs.
 
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