Atheism Atheism - What Happens When We Die?

[Harry Haller]

Harvirji

supernatural creator deity

I am as atheist as you. I do not believe in a supernatural creator deity, I do not pray to it, neither do I worship it. The SGGS is a complete works to enable us to find something higher, a purpose if you will, a place in the world. You are either a part of Creation, or you are just existing. It is easy to exist, however, to really live takes knowledge and wisdom. To instantly know what is right and what is wrong, to live by the truth, in all aspects of your life, and to use that knowlege and wisdom for Creation is the only worship I understand. To help as many people, to be kind, considerate, helpfull, understanding, to rise above anger, to embrace empathy, that is the only prayer I know.

I do not believe in a God, surely that makes me an Atheist. I do however attempt to submit to the will of the truth, and I believe the ten Gurus knew the truth, and the SGGS is a record of such that should be respected as the ultimate authority. I accept the concept of ultimate eternal truth as 'God'.

For a Sikh to show respect to the spiritual side of Sikhism is to ultimately accept the look of a Sikh. This comes with love, it has to be earned, to be wanted, for a Sikh to even question any element of the physical facets is to betray a Sikh who is not ready to be recognised as such.

 

[Harvir007]

3. prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group: the difficulty of resisting political dogma. [/B]
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle: the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation. Synonyms: conviction, certainty.

My dear sir, you automatically assume that an Atheist is stubborn as they will not change their mind, therefore they're dogmatic. You've made quite a leap there. The Atheist proposition is not that there definitely is no God, we couldn't possibly say that there is. We just say that there's never been a convincing philosophical argument that proves its existence. So what does that mean? Well it means if we're presented with a convincing argument, then we shall change our minds. Rather different from your supposition that an Atheist is prone to dogma. Most are not. The believer is the one that says they KNOW that there is a God. Atheists just say: "give me some evidence and I'll pray with you."

I mean some Atheists could be dogmatic, I don't deny it. But that's rather different from saying that Atheism is dogmatic because you think it's an established set of beliefs. Your bolded definitions include the words 'unquestionably' and 'certainty'. I think you'll find that Atheists are the ones that always question their beliefs as they are never certain. You can't be. It's unscientific. There could be a God, but since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I concede that the rational position is that which doesn't believe as the onus is on the believer to prove God is true. Which God is another thing. Which one really exists? Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Ganesh, Zeus, Thor or Waheguru? I don't know. But just like I can't definitely know that the tooth-fairy exists, my default position is that of un-belief. That's not dogmatic, and I'm sorry if I sound flippant, it is common sense.

 

[Harvir007]

Harvirji
I am as atheist as you. I do not believe in a supernatural creator deity, I do not pray to it, neither do I worship it. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a complete works to enable us to find something higher, a purpose if you will, a place in the world. You are either a part of Creation, or you are just existing. It is easy to exist, however, to really live takes knowledge and wisdom. To instantly know what is right and what is wrong, to live by the truth, in all aspects of your life, and to use that knowlege and wisdom for Creation is the only worship I understand. To help as many people, to be kind, considerate, helpfull, understanding, to rise above anger, to embrace empathy, that is the only prayer I know.

I do not believe in a God, surely that makes me an Atheist. I do however attempt to submit to the will of the truth, and I believe the ten Gurus knew the truth, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a record of such that should be respected as the ultimate authority. I accept the concept of ultimate eternal truth as 'God'.

For a Sikh to show respect to the spiritual side of Sikhism is to ultimately accept the look of a Sikh. This comes with love, it has to be earned, to be wanted, for a Sikh to even question any element of the physical facets is to betray a Sikh who is not ready to be recognised as such.

I apologise as I don't mean to be offensive, but I don't see how you can in any meaningful way, call yourself a Sikh if you do not believe in God. A Sikh has to believe in God. Your code of conduct (Rehat Maryada) says so. Your ''God'', also, I'm sorry to say, is a creator deity. The Guru Granth Sahib calls him or her so.

From the Wiki article (God in Sikhism 7th paragraph line one): "God is Karta Purakh, the Creator-Being. He created the spatial-temporal universe." Sounds like a supernatural creator deity to me.

If perhaps you would prefer to call yourself a cultural Sikh? An Atheistic cultural Sikh?

 

[Harry Haller]

I apologise as I don't mean to be offensive, but I don't see how you can in any meaningful way, call yourself a Sikh if you do not believe in God. A Sikh has to believe in God. Your code of conduct (Rehat Maryada) says so. Your ''God'', also, I'm sorry to say, is a creator deity. The Guru Granth Sahib calls him or her so.

From the Wiki article (God in Sikhism 7th paragraph line one): "God is Karta Purakh, the Creator-Being. He created the spatial-temporal universe." Sounds like a supernatural creator deity to me.

If perhaps you would prefer to call yourself a cultural Sikh? An Atheistic cultural Sikh?

I do not find you offensive at all,in fact I am positively taken with you

When I first came to this forum, I asked the same questions as you, and my adherent was also Atheist, I soon realised that most of what I thought and felt was quite acceptable within Sikhism.

I find that to really debate and ponder over the wisdom of Sikhism, it is best to stay away from the web, unless of course, you are reading the SGGS itself.

I do not find the SRM a complete manual to Sikhism, and I did not vote for it, so it is not 'my' SRM. Many Sikhs do have an Abrahamic leaning towards God and that is for them to choose. I personally believe that the truth is the truth. This truth has no interest in me per se, it does not grimace when I think of lust, it does not smile warmly when I naam jap, it is just 'the truth'. As such the truth is not a creator deity, nor is it supernatural.

Most of the english translations of the SGGS lean towards the Abrahamic, which is a shame, because they read like they could have been written in the Bible, they do not do justice to the content in anway whatsoever, in fact, it is my view that they do considerable damage.

As for culture, I have no Sikh culture, it is not the Sikh culture I have any interest in, although from a historical point of view, it can be fascinating, but it is the code of conduct that interests me more, the way of living, the attitudes to embrace.

I do not socialise with any Sikhs, I do not interact with any Sikhs, I live in a predominantly white area in Essex where the nearest Gurudwara is 20 miles away. My wife is Welsh, and an orphan, we have no children, just animals, although I do have a stepson, but I find the lack of social traditions and rituals extremely refreshing.

I was lucky enough to find brother and sister Sikhs here on this forum, people with a hunger, a desire to find out what Sikhism is all about, the core philosophy, rather than just embrace the 'religion' that Sikhism has turned into. I do not find Sikhism religious, I find it a way of life.

Sometimes, in my shop, I have discussions with people, some profess to being very religious, I find the concept of being very religious hilarious, to others, being very religious is praising God, praying, chanting, going to the temple, etc etc, I find this type of religious behaviour bemusing, because to me, being religious should be carrying out the work of Creator and acting in accordance with the truth. The work of Creator is to be a rock for those around you, to support, to assist, not to feel the warm hand of the Gurus on your head, but because it is the right thing to do, period.

Just because you reject the illusion of some cosmic supernatural beardy God figure does not automatically make you a non Sikh.:icecreammunda:

 

[Ishna]

My dear sir, you automatically assume that an Atheist is stubborn as they will not change their mind, therefore they're dogmatic. You've made quite a leap there. The Atheist proposition is not that there definitely is no God, we couldn't possibly say that there is. We just say that there's never been a convincing philosophical argument that proves its existence. So what does that mean? Well it means if we're presented with a convincing argument, then we shall change our minds. Rather different from your supposition that an Atheist is prone to dogma. Most are not. The believer is the one that says they KNOW that there is a God. Atheists just say: "give me some evidence and I'll pray with you."

I mean some Atheists could be dogmatic, I don't deny it. But that's rather different from saying that Atheism is dogmatic because you think it's an established set of beliefs. Your bolded definitions include the words 'unquestionably' and 'certainty'. I think you'll find that Atheists are the ones that always question their beliefs as they are never certain. You can't be. It's unscientific. There could be a God, but since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I concede that the rational position is that which doesn't believe as the onus is on the believer to prove God is true. Which God is another thing. Which one really exists? Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Ganesh, Zeus, Thor or Waheguru? I don't know. But just like I can't definitely know that the tooth-fairy exists, my default position is that of un-belief. That's not dogmatic, and I'm sorry if I sound flippant, it is common sense.

Dear Ma'am

So you're an agnostic atheist, gotcha. I'm not sure Hitchins would approve though. I'm an agnostic theist myself. I've been reading Krauss and Dawkins lately, and hanging out on atheist forums (so I haven't made a leap, I've made an observation, that dogma abounds in the atheist community too), and I've decided this side of the fence has a lot less swearing lol. Also after some examination I've decided that theism can help me in ways atheism can't.

Good luck with your atheism and common sense.

 

[spnadmin]

I am wondering why atheism and science are often used as if science presupposes atheism or that atheism presupposes science. It is very odd. And if HItchens and Dawkns do it that doesn't make is true.

 

[Harvir007]

Dear Ma'am

So you're an agnostic atheist, gotcha. I'm not sure Hitchins would approve though. I'm an agnostic theist myself. I've been reading Krauss and Dawkins lately, and hanging out on atheist forums (so I haven't made a leap, I've made an observation, that dogma abounds in the atheist community too), and I've decided this side of the fence has a lot less swearing lol. Also after some examination I've decided that theism can help me in ways atheism can't.

Good luck with your atheism and common sense.

Nope, as you'll see, I am an anti-theist. As well as being an Atheist I also think religion is bad for you. Agnosticism is a non-sequitur as it doesn't know whether there is a god or not. But for them to come to that position, they must be leaning towards not believing as if they weren't, surely they'd believe in a god? There's no middle line with this issue, you either believe it, or you don't. What would you say if I were to say that I am agnostic about the tooth-fairy? You'd think I had gone barking mad.

Okay, so you've made an observation. Doesn't make it true. And lol, less swearing? One has to say that the pursuit of truth is great, no matter what sort of lexis you use within discourse.

Well if it helps you, then by all means that's fine. It just doesn't make your religion's claim of there being a god, true.

 

[Harvir007]

I am wondering why atheism and science are often used as if science presupposes atheism or that atheism presupposes science. It is very odd. And if HItchens and Dawkns do it that doesn't make is true.

Excellent question. It probably has a lot to do with this breed of so called 'New Atheism'. But I'd say that science is about testing your beliefs against evidence and the hypothesis of there being a god is a scientific claim. Why? This supposed deity created the universe and this feeble planet on which 99.9% of all species have died out.

I'd say science presupposes Atheism but then your likely response would be that how come many scientists believe in some sort of God? Well, I think it was Michael Shermer who came up with the point that smarter people tend to come up with better rationalisations for their beliefs and therefore are more inclined to cling to them. That's one theory. But like I said, the concept of God is a scientific claim. As well as reincarnation which is one of the viewpoints of Sikhism with regards to death.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Interesting interaction. Lots of finger pointing sans the actual knowledge of things especially Sikhi. Lot of babbling about the ignorance of Sikhi. It shows how some are not ready to learn with a conversation but accuse things about Sikhi that are false, untrue and it shows that they have been pulled out of thin air rather than by studying the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

@ Harvir,

Guru Fateh.

I have some questions about you.

1. Please explain god according to Sikhi.

2. What makes you claim that it is a deity as in dogmatic religions?

3. What makes you claim that Sikhi is a religion? ( Also read/watch, "Why Religion"?, The Interfaith Council Speech in this forum)

4. What makes you claim that Sikhi believes on some super natural being?

5. What makes you claim that there is reincarnation in Sikhi?

This will suffice for the time being. Please use references from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, to prove your above claims.

And also, please read my first post to Lucky Singh ji. Let me know what you disagree with and give concrete examples to express your disagreements.

It is OK to disagree but humanity in all of us demands to be honest people so that we can make each other better through the process.

Hope to hear from you.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


PS: I had the opportunity to meet Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins at separate occasions in the early 90,s. The latter I met with Neil deGrasse Tyson. I have read most of their books. I had a chance to have long chats with Christopher on several occasions. The first time we met, he asked me that if Sikhi is not a religion then why I am wearing a turban. I asked him why his hair was 5" short rather than 8" long and why he shaved? He laughed at my questions. We had met at a common friend's house in Los Angeles. We chatted some more and exchanged emails later on where he asked me very interesting and inquisitive questions about Sikhi which were responded to. We always had interesting chats. Eventually after the exchange he agreed with me that Sikhi is not a religion but a way of life but sadly many Sikhs have made it a religion which is an insult to the universal message it brings. I happen to agree with his conclusion. He grew a beard after sometime and sent me the picture with a depiction," I am never going to wear a turban because I smoke". It was a kind of private joke between us. The only thing after all this we disagreed upon was the invasion of Iraq which he was for. I miss him as a friend.

 

[Harvir007]

1. Atheists do not believe in any Deity God, same as the Sikhs.

2. Atheists do not believe in any supernatural being/power, same as the Sikhs.

3. Atheists do not believe in Hell or Heaven, same as the Sikhs.

4. Atheists do not believe in the Absolute Truth, same as the Sikhs.
------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Please explain god according to Sikhi.

2. What makes you claim that it is a deity as in dogmatic religions?

3. What makes you claim that Sikhi is a religion? ( Also read/watch, "Why Religion"?, The Interfaith Council Speech in this forum)

4. What makes you claim that Sikhi believes on some super natural being?

5. What makes you claim that there is reincarnation in Sikhi?

This will suffice for the time being. Please use references from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, to prove your above claims.
.

Greetings,

So I'll begin with your original post.

1. Atheists don't believe in a God. Sikhs do. "One Universal Creator God" (GG. Pg 1)
2. Now you can say that you yourself don't believe in a supernatural being/higher power, but then how do you differentiate between the Sikhs that you think are wrong with their idea of God and those who aren't? How come your interpretation of scripture is fact? Isn't it just opinion?
3. Okay, well most Sikhs have brown skin, some Atheists do also. Atheism is to do with the rejection of God. Not beliefs regarding the after-life.
4. If you could clarify what you mean by 'absolute truth' I'd be grateful.

I'll now answer your questions.

1. "One Universal Creator God, The Name Is Truth, Creative Being Personified, No Fear, No Hatred, Image Of
The Timeless One, Beyond Birth, Self Existent, By Guru's Grace." May I also add that this God's purposes are ostensibly unquestionable. "What is the Creator's purpose in creating the universe? It is not for man to inquire or judge the purpose of His Creator."- Arjan Dev

2. Hmmm, you're making the supposition that your religion isn't dogmatic. I say that it is a deity because it is treated as such in your religion, most of the time. I get that you have your own interpretation, but so do others and on the whole, many many Sikhs perceive God as an intervening God. Some even believe he or she talks to you.

3. Religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
"the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions." Look, I could ask the same question in reverse, what makes you claim that Sikhism isn't a religion?

4. I do apologise but the onus is on you to say how your God isn't a supernatural being. You are the Sikh after all.

5. "O Nanak, by God’s Command, we come and go in reincarnation." Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Pg. 4

Way of life it may be, but is its factual claims that there is a God and that something happens to you after your dead, true?

Thanks.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Greetings,

So I'll begin with your original post.

1. Atheists don't believe in a God. Sikhs do. "One Universal Creator God" (GG. Pg 1)
2. Now you can say that you yourself don't believe in a supernatural being/higher power, but then how do you differentiate between the Sikhs that you think are wrong with their idea of God and those who aren't? How come your interpretation of scripture is fact? Isn't it just opinion?
3. Okay, well most Sikhs have brown skin, some Atheists do also. Atheism is to do with the rejection of God. Not beliefs regarding the after-life.
4. If you could clarify what you mean by 'absolute truth' I'd be grateful.

I'll now answer your questions.

1. "One Universal Creator God, The Name Is Truth, Creative Being Personified, No Fear, No Hatred, Image Of
The Timeless One, Beyond Birth, Self Existent, By Guru's Grace." May I also add that this God's purposes are ostensibly unquestionable. "What is the Creator's purpose in creating the universe? It is not for man to inquire or judge the purpose of His Creator."- Arjan Dev

2. Hmmm, you're making the supposition that your religion isn't dogmatic. I say that it is a deity because it is treated as such in your religion, most of the time. I get that you have your own interpretation, but so do others and on the whole, many many Sikhs perceive God as an intervening God. Some even believe he or she talks to you.

3. Religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
"the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions." Look, I could ask the same question in reverse, what makes you claim that Sikhism isn't a religion?

4. I do apologise but the onus is on you to say how your God isn't a supernatural being. You are the Sikh after all.

5. "O Nanak, by God’s Command, we come and go in reincarnation." Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Pg. 4

Way of life it may be, but is its factual claims that there is a God and that something happens to you after your dead, true?

Thanks.

I thought you would be able to respond to my questions in an honest manner, but as expected that is not the case. Sadly, you have not responded to any one of my questions. I see no references your conclusions are based on as requested.

You were still not able to respond what god means in Sikhi which is a shame.

Ik Ong Kaar is NOT god. Please read threads about mool mantar on this forum.

Many of the literal translations are incorrect as mentioned in many posts in here because the original translators were Christians, hence most literal translations in English have the Abrahamical slant. Personally, I never use god or lord but Ik Ong Kaar. In fact, I wrote a little piece about lord in this forum. Check it out. Please read the history of the translations and if you know Gurmukhi, check the explanation by Prof. Sahib Singh.

Your conclusions/accusations are based on ignorance and your refusal to research and learn. You have already made up your mind based on your subjective belief about Sikhi. There is nothing objective about it.

The onus is on you to give the benefit of the doubt in case you do not know about things and question to find answers. Sikhi is based on that. It is NOT based on revelation as dogmatic religions are but on investigation. 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji state that. Sikhi IS about, " I do not know, perhaps one day,with the help of investigation I will find out". That is the true meaning of Sikh- a student, a learner, a truth seeker.

4.

If you could clarify what you mean by 'absolute truth' I'd be grateful.

My bad, I thought you knew about it as all the dogmatic religions are based on it where truth has stopped in time with the originator of the religion, unlike Sikhi. Absolute truths are also called subjective truths/beliefs/ faiths. For example Hell, Heaven, reincarnation etc etc. and whatever is written in the Torah, The Bible, The Quran are absolutes. No ends or buts about them. They are the only truths,hence absolute truths.

You may understand more about it if you read some threads based on Mool Mantar here.

There is nothing subjective about the Sun outside.

4.

I do apologise but the onus is on you to say how your God isn't a supernatural being. You are the Sikh after all.

One can not prove a negative. You should know better. Hence, the onus is on you to prove through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, that Sikhi has a god and he/she/it is a supernatural being.

5.

"O Nanak, by God’s Command, we come and go in reincarnation." Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Pg. 4

It is not a good method to throw one liners to prove your point. No one is here to do that. We are here to learn from each other through conversation. Please post the whole Shabad with the literal translation and also must include your personal understanding about it. Never depend on others but on your on mind. It is easy to copy and paste something that you have no idea about. Poetry can not be put into prose through a literal translation by someone else but by your own understanding of it.

Give it a shot.

Tejwant Singh


PS: I would suggest that you read, study some threads on this forum that explain things that you are not aware of about Sikhi. I am sure they will be a great help to you.

 

[Harvir007]

I thought you would be able to respond to my questions in an honest manner, but as expected that is not the case. Sadly, you have not responded to any one of my questions. I see no references your conclusions are based on as requested.

You were still not able to respond what god means in Sikhi which is a shame.

Ik Ong Kaar is NOT god. Please read threads about mool mantar on this forum.

Many of the literal translations are incorrect as mentioned in many posts in here because the original translators were Christians, hence most literal translations in English have the Abrahamical slant. Personally, I never use god or lord but Ik Ong Kaar. In fact, I wrote a little piece about lord in this forum. Check it out. Please read the history of the translations and if you know Gurmukhi, check the explanation by Prof. Sahib Singh.

Your conclusions/accusations are based on ignorance and your refusal to research and learn. You have already made up your mind based on your subjective belief about Sikhi. There is nothing objective about it.

The onus is on you to give the benefit of the doubt in case you do not know about things and question to find answers. Sikhi is based on that. It is NOT based on revelation as dogmatic religions are but on investigation. 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji state that. Sikhi IS about, " I do not know, perhaps one day,with the help of investigation I will find out". That is the true meaning of Sikh- a student, a learner, a truth seeker.

4.

One can not prove a negative. You should know better. Hence, the onus is on you to prove through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, that Sikhi has a god and he/she/it is a supernatural being.

5.

It is not a good method to throw one liners to prove your point. No one is here to do that. We are here to learn from each other through conversation. Please post the whole Shabad with the literal translation and also must include your personal understanding about it. Never depend on others but on your on mind. It is easy to copy and paste something that you have no idea about. Poetry can not be put into prose through a literal translation by someone else but by your own understanding of it.

Give it a shot.

Tejwant Singh


PS: I would suggest that you read, study some threads on this forum that explain things that you are not aware of about Sikhi. I am sure they will be a great help to you.

May I just say that my theistic knowledge about Sikhism isn't great... so for me to try and quote scripture is offensive to someone as experienced as you so I won't do so. It doesn't help my argument if you already have the answers then ask them of me.

I have to object to your view that my mind is based on subjective belief about Sikhism. I don't deny that Sikhism is a nice philosophical document, and I'm sure it comforts many people. My objectivity is clearly visible when I question this existence of this said 'creator'. That's not subjective. The notion that you can live by one book as the manual to your life is however. I like to deal with truths. If factual statements are made, they need to be backed up. I don't much care for the content of Sikhism. It's a philosophical view of life. The question of God however is what interests me.

But the bottom line is that whatever Sikhism's definition of God, no matter how ambiguous it is...there is a 'god' in Sikhism. So could you explain to me what God in Sikhism means?

I wouldn't say refusal to learn. There's just not a lot of time when you're in full-time education, so do refrain from pre-judgement.

Thanks.

PS: To the first number 4, you said 'THE absolute truth'. Not 'absolute truths'. Which absolute truth were you referring to?

 

[Ishna]

Nope, as you'll see, I am an anti-theist. As well as being an Atheist I also think religion is bad for you. Agnosticism is a non-sequitur as it doesn't know whether there is a god or not. But for them to come to that position, they must be leaning towards not believing as if they weren't, surely they'd believe in a god? There's no middle line with this issue, you either believe it, or you don't. What would you say if I were to say that I am agnostic about the tooth-fairy? You'd think I had gone barking mad.

Okay, so you've made an observation. Doesn't make it true. And lol, less swearing? One has to say that the pursuit of truth is great, no matter what sort of lexis you use within discourse.

Well if it helps you, then by all means that's fine. It just doesn't make your religion's claim of there being a god, true.

I know it's off-topic and I'll be quiet in a moment I promis.

I found this chart helpful when I had my little foray into the atheist realm: http://actok.org/faqs/whats-the-difference-between-an-atheist-and-an-agnostic/

Atheism/theism is a statement about belief.
Agnosticism/Gnosticism is a statement about knowing.

This supposed deity created the universe and this feeble planet on which 99.9% of all species have died out.

Feeble planet? Feeble planet? I'm stunned! You of all people should have a greater appreciation of just how remarkable it is, how slim the odds were, that our planet formed with just the right ingredients, in just the right place, at just the right distance from the sun, at just the right time for the mind-blowingly immense diversity of life to have evolved here. The fact that species come and go is just part of survival of the fittest.

The science of the universe, of earth and of evolution is amazing, and if it wasn't for this feeble little planet we wouldn't be here, at this point in time, with the technology and knowledge our species has developed and acquired over the ages, to be able to have this conversation on the internet, able to talk about atheism and theism without fear of being burned at the stake, and able to appreciate the fact that our universe most probably became something out of nothing with some of the best ground-breaking science and evidence to back it up!

Golly.

 

[Harvir007]

Feeble planet? Feeble planet? I'm stunned! You of all people should have a greater appreciation of just how remarkable it is, how slim the odds were, that our planet formed with just the right ingredients, in just the right place, at just the right distance from the sun, at just the right time for the mind-blowingly immense diversity of life to have evolved here. The fact that species come and go is just part of survival of the fittest.

The science of the universe, of earth and of evolution is amazing, and if it wasn't for this feeble little planet we wouldn't be here, at this point in time, with the technology and knowledge our species has developed and acquired over the ages, to be able to have this conversation on the internet, able to talk about atheism and theism without fear of being burned at the stake, and able to appreciate the fact that our universe most probably became something out of nothing with some of the best ground-breaking science and evidence to back it up!

Golly.

I'm sorry if that came off wrong. What I'm trying to say I that if there is a god, why are there natural distasters that take millions of lives? Why is there frequent ice-ages in which many places on the earth are inhabitable? Wow, I realise how bad what I said sounds. My apologies. Of course, I get such a buzz when I see the Orion nebula and contemplate the milky way's impending doom when it hits the Andromeda Galaxy. Nature is beautiful. Not perfect, but it's the best we have. I was only trying to illustrate the point that if there is a creator god, why so much misery and death? Again, my apologies if that sounded bad.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harvir007;181283]May I just say that my theistic knowledge about Sikhism isn't great... so for me to try and quote scripture is offensive to someone as experienced as you so I won't do so. It doesn't help my argument if you already have the answers then ask them of me.

If you have no knowledge about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then how can you judge Sikhi as you have been doing in your posts. How can not having knowledge of a subject can make one the expert as you have claimed to be?

I have to object to your view that my mind is based on subjective belief about Sikhism.

What is it based on then if you have no knowledge about its source which is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

I don't deny that Sikhism is a nice philosophical document, and I'm sure it comforts many people.

It is not only a philosophical document but it is a tool box full of tools which teaches one to become a better person and share that goodness with others, just like a flower that emits its fragrance in all directions sans bias. That is the objective of the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As you are a student, you are learning from your books which are going to make you grow in your life in all aspects. As said before, Sikh means nothing but a student, a learner, a seeker, a pragmatist. Sikhi is neither a blind faith nor a belief system because they do not require empirical truth as Sikhi does. It is a shame that you have no knowledge about the subject yet claim to be the expert in it which is a bit harmful for yourself. You can not test your knowledge in the subjects you are taking at school without studying them. This is the same you are doing to Sikhi. Make knowledge your best friend rather than your worst enemy.

The notion that you can live by one book as the manual to your life is however. I like to deal with truths. If factual statements are made, they need to be backed up.

You are contradicting yourself in the above post. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, does deal with the truths as they happen. Sikhi is the way of life which did not stop in time as the dogmatic religions did. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does deal with the truths of life. You would not know because you have no knowledge of it as you have admitted, hence your claims are merely concocted by you in your own subjective manner. When things can not be backed up, the Scientists say that they do not know and so does Sikhi.

My objectivity is clearly visible when I question this existence of this said 'creator'.

Please show me in my posts where I used the word that you mentioned. Do not cling on to your subjective notions without being objective.

I don't much care for the content of Sikhism. It's a philosophical view of life. The question of God however is what interests me.

Of course you can not care because of your lack of knowledge as you have admitted. If you want to know, then you have to learn to learn. There is no God in Sikhi, as mentioned before. If you care to study Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you will find it out.

You also claimed in another post that Sikhi has a deity. I am interested in knowing from you which deity it is and what does the word deity mean according to you?

But the bottom line is that whatever Sikhism's definition of God, no matter how ambiguous it is...there is a 'god' in Sikhism. So could you explain to me what God in Sikhism means?

The onus lies on you. You claimed it. I did not.

I wouldn't say refusal to learn. There's just not a lot of time when you're in full-time education, so do refrain from pre-judgement.

I am sorry to say that it is you who is pre-judging, not me. If you do not have any knowledge about the subject, in this case Sikhi and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, claiming things about them is nothing but fallacies.

PS: To the first number 4, you said 'THE absolute truth'. Not 'absolute truths'. Which absolute truth were you referring to?

It is one and the same thing. One can call them types of absolute truth which is a fallacy as explained before.

Thanks for the interaction. Disagreements are part and parcel of the learning process of Sikhi but one has to have the knowledge of what one is talking about, otherwise it leads to naught.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Are you sure you are seventeen? What subjects are you taking your 'O' levels in?

 

[Harvir007]

If you have no knowledge about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then how can you judge Sikhi as you have been doing in your posts. How can not having knowledge of a subject can make one the expert as you have claimed to be?



What is it based on then if you have no knowledge about its source which is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?



It is not only a philosophical document but it is a tool box full of tools which teaches one to become a better person and share that goodness with others, just like a flower that emits its fragrance in all directions sans bias. That is the objective of the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As you are a student, you are learning from your books which are going to make you grow in your life in all aspects. As said before, Sikh means nothing but a student, a learner, a seeker, a pragmatist. Sikhi is neither a blind faith nor a belief system because they do not require empirical truth as Sikhi does. It is a shame that you have no knowledge about the subject yet claim to be the expert in it which is a bit harmful for yourself. You can not test your knowledge in the subjects you are taking at school without studying them. This is the same you are doing to Sikhi. Make knowledge your best friend rather than your worst enemy.

Please show me in my posts where I used the word that you mentioned. Do not cling on to your subjective notions without being objective.

You also claimed in another post that Sikhi has a deity. I am interested in knowing from you which deity it is and what does the word deity mean according to you?


PS: Are you sure you are seventeen? What subjects are you taking your 'O' levels in?

What I mean to say is that I have limited theistic knowledge in regards to sikhism so I shall correct myself there.

Rehat Maryada is one source, wikipedia is a good one. Sikhi wiki also.

Now excuse me sir, I never said that I was an expert. I have a viewpoint, and I'm airing it. I'm finding out different viewpoints a long the way, such as yours.

So you said that sikhism isn't dogmatic. So again you have your own interpretation. What about the many Sikhs that percieve the religion in this way? Are they wrong? And those who claim to be Sikh, and believe in an intervening god, what about them? How can they be so wrong? Many of these, I should add, read this book (sgss) day after day.

Deity I'd say, refers to a divine figurehead. I understand that your interpretation of scripture is somewhat different from the average Sikh. But I just don't see how you can say there is no God when a majority of Sikhs, if asked, would say 'yes there is.'

I may not be so familiar with scripture, but when you're raised in a family where they say waheguru exists and that there IS a god. I just don't see how you can speak for all Sikhs there. Perhaps it's not your intention but it's how it looks. You may think that's subjective, but I can't be wrong going to the gurdwara every week as a young'n and seeing everyone talk about God helping them, intervening in their lives. Maybe it's subjective, but for another sikh to say that they don't have a god in their religion, they must explain.

PS: Yes I turned 17 this past Sunday, what age did you think I was? The subjects I'm taking are Physics, Economics, English Language and Systems&Control.

 

[Harry Haller]

I'm sorry if that came off wrong. What I'm trying to say I that if there is a god, why are there natural distasters that take millions of lives? Why is there frequent ice-ages in which many places on the earth are inhabitable? Wow, I realise how bad what I said sounds. My apologies. Of course, I get such a buzz when I see the Orion nebula and contemplate the milky way's impending doom when it hits the Andromeda Galaxy. Nature is beautiful. Not perfect, but it's the best we have. I was only trying to illustrate the point that if there is a creator god, why so much misery and death? Again, my apologies if that sounded bad.

Ok, now your getting warm, your getting close.

Your point is sound, if there is a beardy white haired god, with complete control over everything, with his eye on every action in the universe, then why do natural disasters happen?

This is why Sikhs do not believe in a 'God'. My own personal viewpoint is that Creator sets the rules, and justice is administered through Creation. For instance once such rule, gravity, means we cannot jump of tall buildings, only a fool tries to beat this rule, or navigate past it, it is an absolute truth. So we have rules, we have truths, and the more we know about the truths and the rules, the more we can live by them. They are not rules to stop us looking at porn, or taking drugs, or having orgies, they are very simple, look at porn, risk becoming devoid of love, risk being an insensitive cold sex addict, take drugs, risk becoming addicted, risk losing your health, risk a few heart attacks, and so forth.

You wish to live your life as atheist, however, provided you have compassion, wisdom, understanding, which can be gained from many areas and philosophers, then you can also be a Sikh, be devoid of enemies, be a friend to everyone, and have the greatest respect for the Creator in all of us.

Creator sets the rules, what happens after is down to us, to nature, to circumstance, to coincidence but not to God.

 

[Harvir007]

Ok, now your getting warm, your getting close.

Your point is sound, if there is a beardy white haired god, with complete control over everything, with his eye on every action in the universe, then why do natural disasters happen?

This is why Sikhs do not believe in a 'God'. My own personal viewpoint is that Creator sets the rules, and justice is administered through Creation. For instance once such rule, gravity, means we cannot jump of tall buildings, only a fool tries to beat this rule, or navigate past it, it is an absolute truth. So we have rules, we have truths, and the more we know about the truths and the rules, the more we can live by them. They are not rules to stop us looking at porn, or taking drugs, or having orgies, they are very simple, look at porn, risk becoming devoid of love, risk being an insensitive cold sex addict, take drugs, risk becoming addicted, risk losing your health, risk a few heart attacks, and so forth.

You wish to live your life as atheist, however, provided you have compassion, wisdom, understanding, which can be gained from many areas and philosophers, then you can also be a Sikh, be devoid of enemies, be a friend to everyone, and have the greatest respect for the Creator in all of us.

Creator sets the rules, what happens after is down to us, to nature, to circumstance, to coincidence but not to God.

Greetings.

I thank you for saying I can be compassionate, have wisdom and be understanding. And if you view me as a sikh for having those traits then fair enough, I myself personally won't. I'm just another homo sapien with his ideas.

Many sikhs don't believe in a 'god' maybe, but many do. So please don't say Sikhs as a whole don't believe in God, many do.

Thanks, I really enjoyed this civil conversation.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harvir007 ji thanks for your posts. Well written indeed but I have some comments. I have taken certain parts of your posts in this thread to comment upon.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/40339-atheism-what-happens-when-we-die-2.html#post181240
My definition of the concept of God is quite simple. It is the postulation of a supernatural creator deity. If I could go further, I would add that this postulation has no underlying evidence to support it, but one could perhaps tell this from the attributive adjective 'supernatural'.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not define creator rather explicitly states such as embodiment of total that is true. It is not defined as a person, deity, super natural, finite, etc. So if your premise of comments is the above description then there is no debate as the basis of your communication with most who have responded to you is not the above as relating to Sikhism. Harry Haller veer ji has quite succinctly stated so in many responses.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/40339-atheism-what-happens-when-we-die-3.html#post181247
…………… I think you'll find that Atheists are the ones that always question their beliefs as they are never certain. You can't be. It's unscientific. There could be a God, but since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I concede that the rational position is that which doesn't believe as the onus is on the believer to prove God is true………

I find the above comment about Atheists as a unique class very egotistic. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji again and again states of the in-finiteness about all that is creation, knowing and learning as much as you can, and living according to all the wisdom in consonance with all that surrounds us. So hence fundamentally Sikhism seeks and questioning, recognizing the unknown, recognizing the uncertain is core to Sikhism in its aspiration to for ever learn and discover more.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/40339-atheism-what-happens-when-we-die-4.html#post181272
…….. But like I said, the concept of God is a scientific claim. As well as reincarnation which is one of the viewpoints of Sikhism with regards to death………..

Unfortunately here again you have ascribed certain elements to Sikhism which are not supported by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Just because you say so, some others believe so claiming to be Sikhs, does not make it so. There are few threads about re-incarnation at spn including the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...growth-death-transformation.html#.UUkdf1FRQYM

Let us review further,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/40339-atheism-what-happens-when-we-die-4.html#post181283
………But the bottom line is that whatever Sikhism's definition of God, no matter how ambiguous it is...there is a 'god' in Sikhism. So could you explain to me what God in Sikhism means?..........

There are many threads at spn about God and creator but you will find that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji warns against trying to define or box God or creator. Truth and wisdom of creator and associated creation is the focus and there is no limit on vastness of the same.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/40339-atheism-what-happens-when-we-die-4.html#post181285
I'm sorry if that came off wrong. What I'm trying to say I that if there is a god, why are there natural disasters that take millions of lives? Why is there frequent ice-ages in which many places on the earth are inhabitable? Wow, I realize how bad what I said sounds. My apologies. Of course, I get such a buzz when I see the Orion nebula and contemplate the milky way's impending doom when it hits the Andromeda Galaxy. Nature is beautiful. Not perfect, but it's the best we have. I was only trying to illustrate the point that if there is a creator god, why so much misery and death? Again, my apologies if that sounded bad.

Harvir007 ji in respect of the above you may be interested in the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...ake-japan-fate-karma-living.html#.UUkasFFRQYM
“Tragic Earthquake in Japan. Is it Fate? Is it Karma? Is It Living with "the Truth/God that Is Everywhere?"

Also the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...vast-creator-do-all-religions.html#post155061

“ …. the creator does not discriminate. Creator does not make good and bad. It is how us without having creator's completeness see it …….”

The above is simply to share much that is there at spn. It is not to preach or to prove any one wrong but certainly to clarify as far as my own and personal understanding is. I am hardly all knowing or all correct.

In the spirit of dialog and learning.

Regards.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harvir,

Guru Fateh

What I mean to say is that I have limited theistic knowledge in regards to sikhism so I shall correct myself there.

I am glad, then you must be aware that it becomes difficult for one to make blanket claims with the limited knowledge.

Rehat Maryada is one source, wikipedia is a good one. Sikhi wiki also.

All the above can be modified, edited and changed. Hence nothing concrete about them to claim what you have about Sikhi. Only studying the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji can teach one about Sikhi. The rest is self manufactured babble which is insulting to the self.

Now excuse me sir, I never said that I was an expert. I have a viewpoint, and I'm airing it. I'm finding out different viewpoints a long the way, such as yours.

What is your own viewpoint based upon? What have you studied deeply to reach to your conclusions about Sikhi? Please share.

So you said that sikhism isn't dogmatic. So again you have your own interpretation. What about the many Sikhs that percieve the religion in this way? Are they wrong? And those who claim to be Sikh, and believe in an intervening god, what about them? How can they be so wrong? Many of these, I should add, read this book (sgss) day after day.

First and foremost, Sikhi is the journey of the individual. It is NOT a religion. That is why there is no clergy, no rituals like fasting, pilgrimages etc. etc. These things are must to form/define any religion. It is all mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What did you study to reach to the conclusion that Sikhi is dogmatic? Please give concrete examples with references about your studies in Sikhi for your above determination.

I am not here to judge what others do but to become better in this Sikhi journey with the help of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Some read things mechanically like parrots hoping for some miracles to happen, which is not Sikhi but the invasion of Hindutva in it. Others study in order to learn and practice what they have learnt so far in their lives, as you do while trying to pass your 'O' levels.

Deity I'd say, refers to a divine figurehead.

There is no such thing/entity in Sikhi.

I understand that your interpretation of scripture is somewhat different from the average Sikh. But I just don't see how you can say there is no God when a majority of Sikhs, if asked, would say 'yes there is.'

That is the beauty of the poetry of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Each one of us makes it the prose of our lives according to our understanding and which changes with time with the new discovery in this beautiful poetry daily. Thus, Sikhi is all about learning, unlearning and relearning which is the way of life of every human being in that aspect.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru describes Ik Ong Kaar, the first word in the it, as One Source of all there is. It furthers explains that Ik Ong Kaar is Creative Energy which is in organic and inorganic, hence omnipresent. Unfortunately by your own claim you have no knowledge about it which surprises me about your proclamations about Sikhi. Once again you are talking about others. I would like you to share your own knowledge and how you reached to your conclusions about Sikhi by your first hand information, not on any hearsay, which demeans your own intellect.

I may not be so familiar with scripture, but when you're raised in a family where they say waheguru exists and that there IS a god. I just don't see how you can speak for all Sikhs there. Perhaps it's not your intention but it's how it looks. You may think that's subjective, but I can't be wrong going to the gurdwara every week as a young'n and seeing everyone talk about God helping them, intervening in their lives. Maybe it's subjective, but for another sikh to say that they don't have a god in their religion, they must explain.

Well, the beauty of Sikhi is to learn, unlearn and relearn daily in our lives with the help of our actions/deeds and experiences. The Sikh Scholars of yesteryears will have a different view point today than they had at their time. Sikhi is idea based not personality based as religions are. Hence, ideas expand with time. They help us develop and improve ourselves. Sikhi is nothing but an expansion of the ideas that we all have and develop no matter what professional field we choose. It is the foundation of the goodness of humanity. It gives us tools to excel in all aspects. Are you aware that Guru Nanak talked about billions of Galaxies and Planets 500 years ago without the help of any telescope. It is in Jap which starts on page 1 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji after Mool Mantar. He said it while looking at the awe and wow factors that we are surrounded by and being bewildered in this blissful ecstasy called the nature bursting with Energy.

One more important thing to point out, Sikhi does not believe in prophets nor in any prophecies which are considered snake oil salesmen and snake oil rubs respectively. Nothing dogmatic about that. Would n't you agree?

PS: Yes I turned 17 this past Sunday, what age did you think I was? The subjects I'm taking are Physics, Economics, English Language and Systems&Control.

Good Luck in your studies and in your personal journey.

Regards

Tejwant Singh