Being Naamdhari Is Sikhi

[Randip Singh]

The question should be, why do Namdhari's have to prove they are Sikh?

Unless of course they are uneasy about having a living Guru.:u):

 

[Lee]

Many years ago I attended a Sikh summer camp, and during the course of a talk give by some granthi or other he proclaimed that Naamdhari's are not really Sikh. There was such a Sikh in the aduiance who put her arm up to ask to be able to address the granthi and the audicance. After speaking and exlpining what she actualy belived re: sikhi, Waheguru, and the ten Sikh Gurus, the granthi applogised and took his remarks back.

I guess even a brake-away Sikh sect is still Sikh.

 

[harbansj24]

Dear Josh ji,

Guru Fateh,

I have nothing against Namdharis. In fact they are a great group who made significant contribution to Indian history, culture and sports. Their patriotic sacrifices are second to none. Having said that, I wish to point out that recognized recorded history says that Guru Gobind Singh ji departed from this world in 1708. Now the question is did he leave the Sikhs Guru less. No one including the Namdharis believe that he could do that. So we have to believe that he must have left a message that ordained Sikhs accept Guru Granth Sahib as their Guru there after.

Namdharis claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji became a recluse after 1708 and he departed from this world only in 1812 and before that he passed on the Guruship to Guru Balak Singh Ji. I regret to say that recognised recorded history does not support this claim.

 

[Josh martin]

I guess even a brake-away Sikh sect is still Sikh.

As long they are still considered sikh



Namdharis claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji became a recluse after 1708 and he departed from this world only in 1812 and before that he passed on the Guruship to Guru Balak Singh Ji. I regret to say that recognised recorded history does not support this claim.

Still sounds in the ballpark of Guru's and sikhism.


I read the other thread, and there were some reply's I am worried about.

 

[Astroboy]

YouTube - Santoor with Tabla - Raag Bageshwari-www.kiranpalsingh.com

 

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji

Lovely, really very special and unique---- and one or both of these men are your relations I think. Am I correct?

 

[Astroboy]

Nope. But can't we all relate to classical music ?

 

[spnadmin]

Sorry, I thought it was your cousin. But just the same it is great!

 

[Randip Singh]

Still sounds in the ballpark of Guru's and sikhism.


I read the other thread, and there were some reply's I am worried about.

Yes in the ball park, but the sticking point is "Guru Maneyo Granth". Namdhari's believe in a living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Their present Baba has issued some strange decrees, for example, women cannot carry Kirpans. Perhaps something to do with the Nottingham incident a few years back?

 

[Lee]

Yes in the ball park, but the sticking point is "Guru Maneyo Granth". Namdhari's believe in a living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Their present Baba has issued some strange decrees, for example, women cannot carry Kirpans. Perhaps something to do with the Nottingham incident a few years back?

I was on my way home from work yesterday evening and as often happens my mind got around to certian thoughts, and is also my habit I let my mind drift where it would, rather than concentrate on that which was forming in my head.

The thought was about the kirpan, and whether Guru ji if alive in person and not Guru Granth Sahib, would change his Hukum regarding teh carrying of it in these days.

Let me explain. For many Khalsa now-a-days, the kirpan is little more than a small blunt replica of a kirpan. Do you carry it out of obediance? Is it a symbol of such? What was Guru ji's intent for his Gursihks when he initiated the Khalsa? If it was in defence of the defensless, if it was all about 'when all else has failed it is right to pick up the sword' then surly the blunt instrument the Khalsa carry now is useless for such a task?

Now please my freinds do not feel anger towards me here, I am now as I ever was asking honestly and openly, to quest for understanding.

 

[harbansj24]

Dear Lee,

It is true that the kirpan in its present form is of not much use either for self defense or in defence of the defenceless. But it is a powerful reminder to a Gursikh about his duties. In the present day world there are many distractions which tend to confuse and distract you from your fundamental duties not only towards the society but also to your spiritual self. and all the 5 Ks serve as instantaneus reminders to you.

Though I am not an ideal Gursikh, I can assure you that these must have pulled from the brink countless number of times.

Gurufateh and regards

Harbans Singh

 

[Josh martin]

Yes in the ball park, but the sticking point is "Guru Maneyo Granth". Namdhari's believe in a living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Their present Baba has issued some strange decrees, for example, women cannot carry Kirpans. Perhaps something to do with the Nottingham incident a few years back?

b

I don't think they "admit" to believing in living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Anyone would be blaspheming if they did. Looking at the basics, they read gurbani, wear turbans, do kirtan, keep some sort of rehat. They like in respecting saints, more openly than some of us perhaps.

keeping an open end..

 

[Lee]

Dear Lee,

It is true that the kirpan in its present form is of not much use either for self defense or in defence of the defenceless. But it is a powerful reminder to a Gursikh about his duties. In the present day world there are many distractions which tend to confuse and distract you from your fundamental duties not only towards the society but also to your spiritual self. and all the 5 Ks serve as instantaneus reminders to you.

Though I am not an ideal Gursikh, I can assure you that these must have pulled from the brink countless number of times.

Gurufateh and regards

Harbans Singh

Harbans ji,

I understand. However what of Kesh? I can see that perhaps there are only two reasons to keep this(please if you are aware of more let me know) the frist because Guru ji tells us to, the second the very reason you have supplied.

So then if Kesh reminds us of our duties, do we need kirpan to do the same?

Please what is your understanding of the reasons for each of the 5 k's?

 

[Randip Singh]

b

I don't think they "admit" to believing in living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Anyone would be blaspheming if they did. Looking at the basics, they read gurbani, wear turbans, do kirtan, keep some sort of rehat. They like in respecting saints, more openly than some of us perhaps.

keeping an open end..

I'm afraid they do believe in living Guru's:

Namdhari (Sikh sect) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

 

[Josh martin]

I'm afraid they do believe in living Guru's:

Namdhari (Sikh sect) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

I don't think they "admit" to believing in living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.[my quote

They don't believe living guru's which supersede Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

We are walking on thin lines here Keep in mind we are looking for an understanding, not condem/damnation.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Naamdharis have a LIVING GURU which is a human. They do not only believe in him, they consider him equal to if not above SGGS.

Sikhs have SGGS as the ONLY LIVING GURU.

Hence, Naamdharis are for SANTMAT and are against GURMAT.

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

b

I don't think they "admit" to believing in living Guru which supersedes the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Anyone would be blaspheming if they did. Looking at the basics, they read gurbani, wear turbans, do kirtan, keep some sort of rehat. They like in respecting saints, more openly than some of us perhaps.

keeping an open end..

Jio Fateh!

Without enmity toward Namdharis, let's stipulate that a central belief that distinguishes Sikhi from Namdhari Sikhs as a sect is the belief that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the final and everlasting Guru.

Many religious systems of belief involve reading gurbani, wearing turbans, doing kirtan, and keeping some sort of rehat, and respecting sants. Yes --You are correct. Yet, these are not distinguishing features of Sikhi in and of themselves. For example: there are Hindu panths that read gurbani, followers of the Kabir panth do kirtan, there are muslims in Afghanistan who wear turbans, and the phrase "some sort of rehat" is too ambiguous to be meaningful. None of these practices alone or collectively outweighs the centrality of the Sikh belief that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru.

This is an idea that actually pre-dates Guru Gobind Singh - as we find the ideas in the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas.


Gur moorat gur shabad hai, sadh sangat mil amrit vela. [Var 24, stanza 11.]
Guru’s form is his shabad, which can be obtained in early morning holy congregation.

Gur moorat gur shabad hai, sadh sangat samsar parwana. [Var 24, stanza 15.]
Guru’s form is shabad.The shabad and sadh sangat is one and the same.

Gur moorat gur shabad sun, sadh sangat asan nirankari - [Var 11 stanza 2.]
Listen to the Guru’s shabad as the Guru’s form. Sadh sangat is the seat of God.

Namdharis not only give a living Satguru equality with Sri Guru Granth Sahib, they take personal mantras upon initiation from the living Satguru. There are many elements of their very specific rehat that are not only different from Sikh Rehat Maryada, but contradict it along with contradicting the rehats of Dandami and Buddha Dal. Wearing a turban in the absence of keeping 5 K's as an initiated Sikh doesn't mean anything. In contrast Naamdharis do not carry a kirpan but a bamboo staff; they wear mala or rosaries, which is forbidden in the Sikh Rehat Maryada - though many do wear them.

The Namdhari rehat can be found here Sikh identity: an exploration of ... - Google Books

How is the rehat of the Namdhari different? Quick overview of the unique maryada -- you can read more at the link above.

1. Marriage involves walking around agni - Such rituals are forsaken by SRM.
2. The rehat states kechera should never leave the body -- this is not found in SRM.
3. Namdhari are strict vegetarians, excluding meat, fish and eggs from the diet. This is not required in SRM, which forbids halal meat only. And in the other Sikh rehats meat can also be taken.
4. Namdhari forbid tea and coffee in addition to intoxicants, whereas the SRM forbids tobacco and intoxicants.
5. Namdhari forbid dowries completely. The SRM forbids excessive dowry.

I wish however to stress that differences in rehat are more than technical disparities. Even as there are differences in the 5 K's, so there are differences as Naamdharis disregard two essential decrees of Sri Guru Gobind Singh that established the Khalsa panth.

The 5 K's are the signature of the Khalsa panth, and Guru Gobind Singh declared that panth was in his own image "guru" as a temporal and democratic institution to decide on matters affecting corporate Sikh life.

"The Khalsa is my own image. I shall always manifest myself in the Khalsa.
The Khalsa is my body and soul; The Khalsa is the life of my life.
The Khalsa is my perfect leader. The Khalsa is my brave friend.

And he was the one who gave Sri Guru Granth Sahib the status of the everlasting Guru, Satguru.

"Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."

"Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider the Guru Granth as embodiment of the Gurus. Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The Khalsa shall rule, and its opponents will be no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees shall be saved."



Fundamental

 

[Josh martin]

Namdharis not only give a living Satguru equality with Sri Guru Granth Sahib, they take personal mantras upon initiation from the living Satguru.[qoute

Only mantra's I have ever seen any naamdhari or any sikh for matter is vaheguru or mool mantra.

There are many elements of their very specific rehat that are not only different from Sikh Rehat Maryada, but contradict it along with contradicting the rehats of Dandami and Buddha Dal. Wearing a turban in the absence of keeping 5 K's as an initiated Sikh doesn't mean anything. In contrast Naamdharis do not carry a kirpan but a bamboo staff; they wear mala or rosaries, which is forbidden in the Sikh Rehat Maryada - though many do wear them. [quote

It's forbidden to wear maala's, carry staffs? News to me

1. Marriage involves walking around agni - Such rituals are forsaken by SRM.
2. The rehat states kechera should never leave the body -- this is not found in SRM.
3. Namdhari are strict vegetarians, excluding meat, fish and eggs from the diet. This is not required in SRM, which forbids halal meat only. And in the other Sikh rehats meat can also be taken.
4. Namdhari forbid tea and coffee in addition to intoxicants, whereas the SRM forbids tobacco and intoxicants.
5. Namdhari forbid dowries completely. The SRM forbids excessive dowry.

All I see is Namdhari's go a step extra which SRM doesn't require. But I do see your point in trying to point out all differences.


I wish however to stress that differences in rehat are more than technical disparities. Even as there are differences in the 5 K's, so there are differences as Naamdharis disregard two essential decrees of Sri Guru Gobind Singh that established the Khalsa panth.
The 5 K's are the signature of the Khalsa panth, and Guru Gobind Singh declared that panth was in his own image "guru" as a temporal and democratic institution to decide on matters affecting corporate Sikh life.

Here you are comparing sikhi with Khalsa Amritdhari Singhs. By these standards 99% of sangat in gurudwara's in sacramento wouldn't qualify as sikhs.

And he was the one who gave Sri Guru Granth Sahib the status of the everlasting Guru, Satguru. [quot

"Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."

"Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider the Guru Granth as embodiment of the Gurus. Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The Khalsa shall rule, and its opponents will be no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees shall be saved."

And this strictly forbids everyone to bow to saints or seva of saints or anyone other than Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

I would like to share a simple story here. Although Baba SHiri chand ji started his own gadhi/seat which still continues today, Shiri Guru Raamdas ji cleaned his feet with his dhari. Was he better/higher/more spiritual than Shiri Guru Raamdas ji? ofcourse not, no ones higher, but Shiri Guru Sahib tought us humility, seva and Nivna(to bow down).
5th Patshahi, Shiri Guru Arjun Dev ji, walked to Baba Shiri Chand ji's place to ask for his CHarnamrit himself cuz water in Harminder sahib wouldn't stay. Couldn't Guru ji do it himself, ofcourse, but they set an example for rest of us.
GuruSahib ji, asked Mian meer ji to make "NIh" of Shiri Harmandir Sahib ji, Couldn't he have done it himself or asked SIKHS like Bhai Gurdaasji, Baba Budha ji or many other able sangat? Guru ji teach us that naam/simran/seva/GurMaT transcends race/caste/religion. If Guru Ji are so respectfull of Baba shiri Chand ji and a Muslim peer Mian Meer ji, Why do we, SIKHS of the same Guru Sahib criticiz and Ninda others Tagging/labeling them as sects/non sikhs etc.

Have we this new MAT which is higher than our Guru Sahib? SInce when did we as SIKHS became so wise as to Pin -down / excumminate/outcaste others from "OUR" religion. If you are looking for it, you will find it. More in each of us than in others I am sure.

Fundamental
[/quote]

 

[spnadmin]

Josh Martin ji

Namdharis not only give a living Satguru equality with Sri Guru Granth Sahib, they take personal mantras upon initiation from the living Satguru.[qoute

Only mantra's I have ever seen any naamdhari or any sikh for matter is vaheguru or mool mantra.
The difference is that the mantar is given by panj pyaaree representing the Guru's panth, and not by a Living Satguru. Point made earlier and signifies a big difference. Yes I am stressing the differences. Maybe it is politically incorrect.

There are many elements of their very specific rehat that are not only different from Sikh Rehat Maryada, but contradict it along with contradicting the rehats of Dandami and Buddha Dal. Wearing a turban in the absence of keeping 5 K's as an initiated Sikh doesn't mean anything. In contrast Naamdharis do not carry a kirpan but a bamboo staff; they wear mala or rosaries, which is forbidden in the Sikh Rehat Maryada - though many do wear them. [quote

It's forbidden to wear maala's, carry staffs? News to me
Forbidden to wear paraphernalia that if it harkens to ritualistic importance or other practices of other religions. To tell the truth I don't believe there ever was a mala crackdown. But do not beg the question. The bamboo staff is substituted for kirpan.

1. Marriage involves walking around agni - Such rituals are forsaken by SRM.
2. The rehat states kechera should never leave the body -- this is not found in SRM.
3. Namdhari are strict vegetarians, excluding meat, fish and eggs from the diet. This is not required in SRM, which forbids halal meat only. And in the other Sikh rehats meat can also be taken.
4. Namdhari forbid tea and coffee in addition to intoxicants, whereas the SRM forbids tobacco and intoxicants.
5. Namdhari forbid dowries completely. The SRM forbids excessive dowry.

All I see is Namdhari's go a step extra which SRM doesn't require. But I do see your point in trying to point out all differences.

Could be a step backward, and in the case o Number 2 a corporate case of ritualism.

1. Marriage involves walking around agni - Such rituals are forsaken by SRM.
2. The rehat states kechera should never leave the body -- this is not found in SRM.

I wish however to stress that differences in rehat are more than technical disparities. Even as there are differences in the 5 K's, so there are differences as Naamdharis disregard two essential decrees of Sri Guru Gobind Singh that established the Khalsa panth.
The 5 K's are the signature of the Khalsa panth, and Guru Gobind Singh declared that panth was in his own image "guru" as a temporal and democratic institution to decide on matters affecting corporate Sikh life.

Here you are comparing sikhi with Khalsa Amritdhari Singhs. By these standards 99% of sangat in gurudwara's in sacramento wouldn't qualify as sikhs. Assumes a straw man argument once again. And begs the question once more. Guru Gobind Singh declared that the panth was in his own image "guru" in matters affecting corporate Sikh life, and the 5 K's denote membership in the Khalsa and the panth is represented by the Khalsa. In the large one can and Sikhs do argue as to who is the "panth?" And that is a sign of the health of Sikhism.

And he was the one who gave Sri Guru Granth Sahib the status of the everlasting Guru, Satguru. [quot

"Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."

"Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider the Guru Granth as embodiment of the Gurus. Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The Khalsa shall rule, and its opponents will be no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees shall be saved."

And this strictly forbids everyone to bow to saints or seva of saints or anyone other than Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji? DO NOT CONFUSE "BOWING" with accepting other mortals as guru. There is only one Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It is a matter of fact. Not a matter of religious preference. Now this is Introduction to Sikhism. And I have no idea why is is persistently questioned the way that it is?

I would like to share a simple story here. Although Baba SHiri chand ji started his own gadhi/seat which still continues today, Shiri Guru Raamdas ji cleaned his feet with his dhari. Was he better/higher/more spiritual than Shiri Guru Raamdas ji? ofcourse not, no ones higher, but Shiri Guru Sahib tought us humility, seva and Nivna(to bow down).

That is an interesting story. And if any other member would like to post the story in full, then we can discuss its deeper meaning.


5th Patshahi, Shiri Guru Arjun Dev ji, walked to Baba Shiri Chand ji's place to ask for his CHarnamrit himself cuz water in Harminder sahib wouldn't stay. Couldn't Guru ji do it himself, ofcourse, but they set an example for rest of us.

See my comments above.

GuruSahib ji, asked Mian meer ji to make "NIh" of Shiri Harmandir Sahib ji, Couldn't he have done it himself or asked SIKHS like Bhai Gurdaasji, Baba Budha ji or many other able sangat? Guru ji teach us that naam/simran/seva/GurMaT transcends race/caste/religion. If Guru Ji are so respectfull of Baba shiri Chand ji and a Muslim peer Mian Meer ji, Why do we, SIKHS of the same Guru Sahib criticiz and Ninda others Tagging/labeling them as sects/non sikhs etc.

I will leave the story of Mian Mir to Gyani to re-tell because he does know more than I do.

Why is it criticizing and nindya to say that a particular group is a sect or is not a sikh?

For that matter -- I thought Naamdhari Sikhs were perfectly satisfied with the way they have worked out their spiritual way and have no desire to adapt to other Sikh rehats.


Have we this new MAT which is higher than our Guru Sahib? SInce when did we as SIKHS became so wise as to Pin -down / excumminate/outcaste others from "OUR" religion. If you are looking for it, you will find it. More in each of us than in others I am sure.

What new MAT are you talking about? Gurmatth is all I have been talking about. If you are raising questions about injustice in the panth -- this is not the place to raise hell about it. No one has denied it and no one has declared a MAt greater than Gurbani/Gurmatt. There have been scores of articles and threads on the subject right here in the forum -- all decrying injustice of all sorts.

The point is Sikhs have one Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, who is the everlasting guru, and whose jyote is the jyote of 10 Gurus preceeding, ending with Sri Guru Gobind Singh -- who did leave his mortal body well before the middle of the 19th Century, and who said prior to his mortal passing:
Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."

Sikhs who adhere to the above do not consider those who do not adhere to be Sikhs. Randip ji already said that a few posts back.


Fundamental

[/quote]

Regards

 

[harbansj24]

Dear Josh ji,

Please do appreciate that the forum of internet has its own limitations and cannot cater to endless debates and arguments. At best you can get some limited clarifications from people who are knowledgeable in the subject. You cannot garner total in depth knowledge here. Any attempt to do so will will only lead to diversionary and pointless discussions.

We can at best have clarity on basics only.

What Narayanjot Kaur ji and others have said can briefly be said as under:

A Gursikh is one who:

• Recognizes Guru Granth Sahib as his/her Guru.
• Has 5ks and does not contemplate discarding them.
• Does Simran, Kirit and Vand Chakh.

Others who only partly adhere to the above, are not Gursikhs, whatever else they may be.

Our Dasam Pita had (I believe He still has!) tremendous fore knowledge when he prescribed a code of conduct for Sikhs. Only now the world is beginning to realise this.

Just two examples will suffice;

1. The Surgeon General of USA, the most advanced country in the world had declared only 50 years ago that Tobacco is harmful to health and the world is moving towards total ban only now but our Dasam Pita had said the same thing in 1699.

2. Govts. the world over are now officially saying that to prevent AIDS we must practice sexual faithfulness. Our Dasam Pita had said it in 1699.

Lee ji has also been rasing similar queries. To him also I will say that to a GurSikh the hukum of Guru is sufficient. (and we do not doubt that he actually ordained us that way)

As a very limited anwer to Lee ji, I would say the following:

A "Sabat Soorat Sikh" has to think twice before he does anything unethical because whenever such a person is involved in wrongdoing it will be said that a Sikh has done wrong. This is not so with any other community. It does not mean that a Sabat Soorat Sikh does no wrong but whenever he does, the whole community gets identified so that it does make him that much more careful. Similarly whenever a Sikh does something good, he brings a good name to community.

If both Josh ji and Lee ji wish to understand Sikhi in its entirety, then I will humbly suggest that they invest time and read the following books by Bhai Vir Singh Ji:

1. Guru Nanak Chamatkar.
2. Guru Kalghidar Chamatkar
2. Asht Guru Chamatkar

And if possible also Baba Naudh Singh and Rana Surat Singh.

After reading these all your qurries and doubts will be answered.

These Books are published by Bhai Vir Singh Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi

Guru Fateh and regards

Harbans Singh