Can You Be A Sikh Without The 5ks?

[Shanger]

I read that they're not mentioned in SGGSJ. But the Sikh Rehat Maryada

I wiki'd

and found that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Rehat_Maryada

In 1915 and later in 1931, attempts were made to create a modern standard Rehat (Rehat or code). This effort involved several Sikh scholars who worked to produce the current version. In 1950 the "Sikh Rehat Maryada" was finally approved. The document has been accepted as the official version which provides guidelines for all Sikh individuals and communities around the world. Its implementation has resulted in a high level of uniformity in the religious and social practices of Sikhism.

If they are just merely scholars why should their word be followed?

But then I read that Guru Gobind Singhji implemented them-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Ks

The Five Ks, or panj kakaar/kakke, are five articles of faith that Khalsa Sikhs wear at all times at the command of the tenth Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh who so ordered at the Baisakhi Amrit Sanchar in 1699. The Five Ks are not just symbols but Articles of Faith which collectively form the external identity and the Khalsa devotee's commitment to the Sikh Rehni (Way of Life).

Does that mean that are compulsory for a Sikh?

Or would you say that Sikhi is more a state of mind?

Or is it that you can be a sikh without them, but just not as devout as one with them?

I'm not attacking the 5ks by the way, personally I think karas look cool and kirpans are terrific ideas.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Shanger ji, your motives have come out less than sincere with the other thread that you created. The emphasis is on divisiveness. Dealing with generally sincere, meek, humble and respectfully responding people you need to rope yourself in a bit.

You don't need wiki to understand Sikhism, that is if you sincerity of intentions to do so or rather be a devil's advocate in your writing style.

The important information about this is readily available from the following,

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikh-dharma-manual.html
Where appropriate the document covers the necessary explanations.

When you get your baptization (that is if you ever do versus just playing with peoplepeacesign), there will be ample dialog and cross-examination of virtues and purposes for you.

Your garbage comments like "karas look cool" are dis-respectful and there to inflame and belittle and do not belong to a 21 year old (i.e. if you stated your age right).

I will really appreciate if you can close out if you got your answers in the following thread that you started and are ready to become a sikh,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/34259-why-do-you-think-sikhism-right.html

Dig and be informed if you have sincerity of purpose.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Shanger]

Shanger ji, your motives have come out less than sincere with the other thread that you created. The emphasis is on divisiveness. Dealing with generally sincere, meek, humble and respectfully responding people you need to rope yourself in a bit.

You're being unreasonable and I deny those claims, but lets not let any "grudges" from one thread go into another. Though if everyone feels I am only here to cause offence then I can leave if it's causing people distress.

The important information about this is readily available from the following,

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikh-dharma-manual.html

When you get your baptization (that is if you peacesign), there will be ample dialog and cross-examination of virtues and purposes for you.

Where appropriate the document covers the necessary explanations.

Dig and be informed.

Sat Sri Akal.

That was an extremely long read with many pages, but I found these parts which I think are relevant to this discussion-

i. A Sikh should, in no way, harbour any antipathy to the hair of the head with which his child is born. He should not temper with the hair with which the child is born. He should add the suffix "Singh" to the name of his son & "Kaur" to the name of his daughter. A Sikh should keep the hair of his sons and daughters intact.

t. For a Sikh, there is no restriction or requirement as to dress except that he must wear Kachhehra (A drawer type garment fastened by a fitted string round the waist, very often worn as an underwear.) and turban. A Sikh woman may or may not tie turban.

Ik aunkar satnam karta purakh nirbhau nirwair akal murat ajuni saibhang gur prasad.

p. After this, one from amongst the five beloved ones should explain to the initiates the discipline of the order : * Today you are reborn in the true Guru's household, ending the cycle of migration, and joined the Khalsa Panth (order). *Your spiritual father is now Guru Gobind Singh and spiritual mother, Mata Sahib Kaur. *Your place of birth is Kesgarh Sahib and your native place is Anandpur Sahib. You, being the sons of one father, are, inter-se yourselves and other baptised Sikhs, spiritual brothers. You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour. You are supposed to know Gurmukhi (Punjabi alphabet). (If you do not, you must learn it). And recite, or listen in to the recitation of, the under mentioned scriptural compositions, the daily repetition of which is ordained, every day 1) The Japuji Sahib, (2) The Jaap Sahib, (3) The Ten Sawayyas (Quartrains), beginning "sarawag sudh", (4) The Sodar Rahiras and the Sohila. Besides, you should read from or listen in to the recitation from the Guru Granth Sahib . Have, on your person, all the time, the five K's :

I. The Keshas (unshorn hair),
II. The Kirpan {sheathed sword} (The length of the sword to be worn is not prescribed.,
III. The Kachhehra (The Kachhehra (drawers like garment) may be made from any cloth, but its legs should not reach down to below the shins.),
IV. The Kanga (comb),
V. The Karha {steel bracelet} (The Karha should be of pure steel.)

But I am still unsure of whether or not the 5Ks are compulsory to be Sikh?

 

[spnadmin]

I would like to add that I am increasingly irritated with a style of presentation that is based on what are nothing more than straw man arguments and the habit of teasing out a sentence here or there and building case around nonexistent assumptions. Shanger that is not only your method of beginning a discussion, but your habit of dialog with others. It is tempting to close this thread now but that might stop individuals who have quality ideas from expressing them. I am going to delete the poll because it samples a very limited and skewed range of possible answers. It was also interesting for me to find that you set poll options so that voters names would be displayed along with their votes.

 

[Shanger]

Your garbage comments like "karas look cool" are dis-respectful and there to inflame and belittle and do not belong to a 21 year old (i.e. if you stated your age right).

I was being genuine, I actually do think karas look cool, I have friends and family who wear them, you need to stop being paranoid.

Calling my comments garbage is disrespectful, but I will not stoop to your level, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say there was a misunderstanding.

I will really appreciate if you can close out if you got your answers in the following thread that you started and are ready to become a sikh,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/34259-why-do-you-think-sikhism-right.html

Dig and be informed if you have sincerity of purpose.

Sat Sri Akal.

What do you mean "close out"?

I will get back to that thread very soon, I just had this on my mind.

Thanks

 

[Shanger]

I would like to add that I am increasingly irritated with a style of presentation that is based on what are nothing more than straw man arguments and the habit of teasing out a sentence here or there and building case around nonexistent assumptions.

This thread was a question, not an argument.

Shanger that is not only your method of beginning a discussion, but your habit of dialog with others.

I remain polite despite being told I am insincere, have garbage comments etc. Not once have I resorted to ad hominem or anything.

I am going to delete the poll because it samples a very limited and skewed range of possible answers.

You could have instead edited it to something more suitable?

It was also interesting for me to find that you set poll options so that voters names would be displayed along with their votes.

I've read the posts of the a few people here and I am now familiar with a few posters and some of their insights, that is why I made the poll public. The poll itself says "this is a public poll" so I did not attempt to deceive anyone. Also with a public poll people feel more inclined to give reason for their choice rather than just voting and not saying why, I don't see why everyone is trying to make me out as some villain.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Shanger ji,

animatedkhanda1

Example of a piercing Khanda, Chakra and slashing Kirpans used in early Sikh battles

The use and necessity of all 5Ks is well described in the Sikh Rehat Maryada.
link below again if you missed ,

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikh-dharma-manual.html

The 5K's are in the category of Rehats in the above document. So if you pay due respect you will find that you don't pick one being cool and the other being uncool when these are presented together.

The 5Ks were part of the Baptization into Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh ji and when you ask questions or use flippent comments (not even philosophical arguments to say the least) you got to own up and visualize that you are standing in front of Guru Gobind Singh ji. It is not a triviality.

If you take the approach that you are asking or inquiring as though you are talking to the appropriate Gurus and Bhagats, and others in Gurbani or otherwise, you will be accorded the necessary responses.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Shanger]

Shanger ji,

animatedkhanda1

Example of a piercing Khanda, Chakra and slashing Kirpans used in early Sikh battles

The use and necessity of all 5Ks is well described in the Sikh Rehat Maryada.
link below again if you missed ,

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikh-dharma-manual.html

The 5K's are in the category of Rehats in the above document. So if you pay due respect you will find that you don't pick one being cool and the other being uncool when these are presented together.

You are putting words into my mouth and that is unfair, just because I said karas are cool does not mean that I am saying that the other Ks are uncool, seems like more paranoia.

The 5Ks were part of the Baptization into Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh ji and when you ask questions or use flippent comments (not even philosophical arguments to say the least) you got to own up and visualize that you are standing in front of Guru Gobind Singh ji. It is not a triviality.

I've simply asked a question in this thread, which hasn't been answered. I know what the Rehat says, but does that make it the final word?

I have read that SGGSJ does not mention the 5Ks, yet the rehat & Guru Gobind Singhji does, I am confused now.

Because from what I've read on that site, a sikh MUST wear the 5ks. Yet 2 people here voted "No" on the poll.

If you take the approach that you are asking or inquiring as though you are talking to the appropriate Gurus and Bhagats, and others in Gurbani or otherwise, you will be accorded the necessary responses.

Sat Sri Akal.

I asked-

Does that mean that are compulsory for a Sikh?

Or would you say that Sikhi is more a state of mind?

Or is it that you can be a sikh without them, but just not as devout as one with them?

This is fine as an inquiry, what more do you want? & you have still not given me your answer. Or will you continue to dodge the question and instead post the rehat site again and question my motives some more?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Shanger ji, you helped answer in your paraphrasing, thanks.

"I've simply asked a question in this thread, which hasn't been answered. I know what the Rehat says, but does that make it the final word"

The answer is a resounding "YES"

​

See we can close a topic if we are effective in communication.

Cheers,

Sat Sri Akal.:huggie:

 

[Shanger]

Shanger ji, you helped answer in your paraphrasing, thanks.

"I've simply asked a question in this thread, which hasn't been answered. I know what the Rehat says, but does that make it the final word"

The answer is a resounding "YES"

​

See we can close a topic if we are effective in communication.

Cheers,

Sat Sri Akal.:huggie:

Ok Thank you

So that means a Sikh must wear the 5ks, so if someone does not, then he cannot be a Sikh?

But if this is true-

No Sikh Guru ever forbade, scorned, ordered the 5 k's, threatened anyone with anything, or made people to live a certain way. Granted this kind of behavior is common among babas and ammas running an ashram or heading of a sect here and there around the world. But in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only guru, are the voices of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Bhatts, and none of them stand guilty of blaming, shaming, controlling. And that takes us back to the paurees of Japuji that you posted -- which you have not yet explored with us sincerely. So you must be confusing what you have seen and heard with what is actually there. You are looking at a lot of work ahead of you if you really want to understand.

Then may I ask why the Sikh Rehat should be followed?

& @ Spnadmin am I wrong in thinking that Guru Gobind Singhji ordered Sikhs to wear the 5Ks?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ok Thank you

So that means a Sikh must wear the 5ks, so if someone does not, then he cannot be a Sikh?

But if this is true-


Then may I ask why the Sikh Rehat should be followed?

& @ Spnadmin am I wrong in thinking that Guru Gobind Singhji ordered Sikhs to wear the 5Ks?

Shanger ji read and re-read the SRM, nothing more nothing less. Read the introduction to SRM it gives background on how it came to be.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

& @ Spnadmin am I wrong in thinking that Guru Gobind Singhji ordered Sikhs to wear the 5Ks?
Edit/Delete Message

Yes you are wrong. It is unknown whether he ordered anything. The record of his ordering Sikhs to wear the 5 k's, kakkars, comes from sources compiled after his death. These texts were based on anecdotal information passed down from Sikhs who were eye-witnesses, but left no written record. And from one Sikh and one Muslim who witnessed the event and did apparently leave notes. I have not read that these notes were ever found, they are only mentioned in later writing. The inference of the kakkars comes mainly from the various rehats that were written by Guru Gobind Singhs military aides and contemporaries. The provenance, that is credible lineage of these documents, has been debated.

None of the above discredits the wearing of 5 k's -- because we do not wear them in the first place because we are good at taking orders. It only disputes the many erroneous statements you have made for several days that misdirect the conversations.

 

[spnadmin]

You are putting words into my mouth and that is unfair, just because I said karas are cool does not mean that I am saying that the other Ks are uncool, seems like more paranoia.

I would say it sounds liess like paranoia and more like Ambarsaria ji thinks you are making light of of your own topic, and yes this is disrepectful, unless of course your are a teenager who is fond of testing social norms.

I've simply asked a question in this thread, which hasn't been answered. I know what the Rehat says, but does that make it the final word?

Yes.

I have read that Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ does not mention the 5Ks, yet the rehat & Guru Gobind Singhji does, I am confused now.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a rule book but our teacher, our guru, to becoming a more ethical and spiritual person. The Rehat Maryada is not a rule book but is more like a set of bylaws which define the Sikh identity and establish a code for living within that identity. What Guru Gobind Singh said is hotly debated, but we can be sure that,whatever he said, it was consistent with the message of Guru Granth Sahib.

I hope that is clear. And if you need more background on Guru Gobind Singh we can arrange that.

Because from what I've read on that site, a sikh MUST wear the 5ks. Yet 2 people here voted "No" on the poll.

I would follow Ambarsaria's advice and read the Sikh Rehat Maryada beginning on page 1.

I asked-

This is fine as an inquiry, what more do you want? & you have still not given me your answer. Or will you continue to dodge the question and instead post the rehat site again and question my motives some more?

This last statement is not unlike your approach on another thread. On that thread you will not be clear as to what constitutes adequate proof that someone or something is so special that they or it should be viewed as divine, or worthy of being followed. Forgive me for being brief. Here we are entering a new chapter in the thread where you ask that your questions be answered. Several are doing that. Therefore, we must not "get" what your criteria are for an answer.

Has any of this been a learning experience for anyone? It won't be much longer, and the thread will be closed.

One last word: Please use a civil tongue.

 

[Ishna]

Hello

Please correct my understanding if I'm wrong... but I always thought you could be a SIKH without wearing the 5ks... but to be a KHALSA you need to wear the 5ks... and the aim of a Sikh is to become a Khalsa (being a Khalsa isn't a requirement to being a Sikh as per the definition of a Sikh in the maryada, but belief in the baptism/personal ambition to become Khalsa is).

So my answer to the title question is yes, you can be a Sikh without the 5ks, but it should be something you aspire towards.

Is that right?

Ishna

 

[spnadmin]

Hello

Please correct my understanding if I'm wrong... but I always thought you could be a SIKH without wearing the 5ks... but to be a KHALSA you need to wear the 5ks... and the aim of a Sikh is to become a Khalsa (being a Khalsa isn't a requirement to being a Sikh as per the definition of a Sikh in the maryada, but belief in the baptism/personal ambition to become Khalsa is).

So my answer to the title question is yes, you can be a Sikh without the 5ks, but it should be something you aspire towards.

Is that right?

Ishna

Your reply Ishna ji is both reasonable and rational. There are however sectors of the panth who would say that one is not a Sikh unless baptized/amritdhari. There are also political and legal reasons in India for considering only keshdhari (those who keep hair) as Sikhs. There are also sects within Sikhism who have their own special amrit sanchar ceremony, and only consider true Sikhs those who follow their particular rehats. There are those who use key shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their definition for who is a Sikh.

So this is not a topic where closure can be reached easily. Unlike many other religions, there is no central body that issues papal bulls like the Pope in Rome.

The reach of the SGPC under Indian law is to the management of gurdwaras, mainly in Punjab and Haryana, though we have seen it go beyond its mandate often in the past 2 years. The Akal Takht is called the "throne of Sikhi" but its jathedhar is servant of the panth, not pope. So Sikhs are left to exercise their intelligence to answer many fundamental questions, with SGGS as Guru, and The Sikh Rehat Maryada as their guide.

It is imperative that we all read and read and read to find out how diverse Sikhi is, and the historical reasons for that, before going off half-{censored}ed. It is important and also possible to study these issues. As adults we imho should be able to weigh information and accept the complexity of some issues. And as adults we should be able to give up the need to understand our world, Sikhi and othewise, in black and white. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

This is the second thread by Shanger that I have read which has no objective of learning or exchanging ideas. It shows Shanger's parochial mindedness, nothing more. He/she has the gall to ask questions but feels insecure to disclose his/her own religion/faith. Bloody cheeky, to say the least.

Now back to the question of the thread,"Can You Be A Sikh Without The 5ks"?.

Do you know the meaning of Sikh? If you do not, it simply means a student, a learner, a seeker.

Yes, one can be a Sikh without wearing 5k's. As you do not seem to be aware of Sikh history, not all people present on the day of Vaisakhi in 1699 took Khandei di Pahul, i.e. adopted 5k's because it was not mandatory for a Sikh. Many Sikhs who do not adhere to 5k's are called Sehajdhari Sikhs. There was also an old tradition which still exists in many places in Punjab that the oldest son of a Hindu family is made a Sikh by his Hindu parents. Sikhi is a journey. It has nothing to do with any miracles as you were looking for some in Sikhi in your other thread.

Your question is irrelevant, due to lack of your own knowledge. It is like asking that if one has climbed the Kilimanjaro and not Mount Everest yet, can that person be called a mountain climber?

As requested before, learn to exchange ideas. But you can only do that by not hiding behind some facade. One can not be on the stage to perform while hiding behind the curtains.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Adi Nanaki]

I read that they're not mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ. But the Sikh Rehat Maryada

I wiki'd

and found that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Rehat_Maryada



If they are just merely scholars why should their word be followed?

But then I read that Guru Gobind Singhji implemented them-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Ks


Does that mean that are compulsory for a Sikh?

Or would you say that Sikhi is more a state of mind?

Or is it that you can be a sikh without them, but just not as devout as one with them?

I'm not attacking the 5ks by the way, personally I think karas look cool and kirpans are terrific ideas.

Who are you asking to confirm Guru Gobind Singh's words? Truly listen, suneeay, to Guru's words yourself and join the 960 million people around the world Guru Gobind Singh foresaw entering the New Millennium as His Beloveds.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Of course, you can be a Sikh without the 5 Ks. I just don't understand why anyone would want to be a Sikh without having the Sikh experience in its entirety.
swordfight


And for that the 5Ks are mandatory

ikonkaar animatedkhanda1

 

[Adi Nanaki]

You can be a Sikh, yet you cannot be Khalsa. A Sikh is someone who is still learning. Many people first take basic "Sikh Vows", since they do not seem to be born Sikh, although we are through our souls. It is done as a social statement. Only when we are drawn to become Khalsa and prepared to make and keep that sacred vow do we give our heads to the Tenth Master and live in his image. A Khalsa who imbibes the Tenth Master is capable of facing a thousand contenders with majesty and grace.

Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ki Fateh!

Khalsa belongs to Waheguru, and Victory belongs to Waheguru!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Can a child enroll at a school..and yet not wear the uniform or take his books along..still considered a "student" ?? Can he skip all classes, and be absent on exam days...and still be considered a "student" ?? The "Nswer" is YES.....but with the "A" missing. Such questions are what we Punjabis call DHUCHARBAZEE !! Questions without substance or desire for real answers..just plain DHUCHARS...like Can someone be a "football player" even if he runs away with the Ball ??? if he wants to play football with a ping pong ball ?? Can a Ping Pong game be played on a Football Field and still be called ping pong ?? Can a Badminton Player play badminton without a Net ?? A million DHUCHARS !!

Somebody wrote a poignant poetry about Sikhs...its in Punjabi...BUT its essential meaning goes like this..
I peeped into a class room full of "SIKHS"...and saw that NONE of them had any HEADS.
Outside the Class Room was a Tuk form the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..." JE TAU PREM KHELANN KA CHAO..SIR DHAR TALI GALEE MERI AYO...." meaning..IF you desire to play the Game of Love my sweet..ENTER with your head on your PALM !! Bhagat Kabir Ji.

Can a SIKH give His HEAD for FREEDOM of another's religion ?? Again the "Nswer is YES...Guru teg bahadur Ji did that to Fight for the freedom of religion of all Indians against forcible conversion. NO SIKH on the other hand ahs ever forcibly converted nayone..simply becasue to be a SIKH is an individual's personal choice..and how far he/she wnats to go..is alos his/her choice...5 Ks...5 Banis...a SIKH is always a SIKH..until the very last breath of life on earth. PROGRESS..always PROGRESS and CHARDEEKALLA is "SIKH".:happysingh::singhsippingcoffee:rangesingh::redturban::blueturban:icecreamkudiwelcomemunda swordfight :interestedsingh: