Can You Be A Sikh Without The 5ks?

celtic · Jan 27, 2011

Tejwant Singh said:
Your question is irrelevant, due to lack of your own knowledge. It is like asking that if one has climbed the Kilimanjaro and not Mount Everest yet, can that person be called a mountain climber?

But for someone who knows nothing of mountains nor climbing, for one who has seen neither, how does he know the question is irrelevant? For one who doesn't know what there is to know, you can't expect a relevant question. But it's in the answers to the "irrelevant" questions that he or she can discover where to start looking.

Tejwant Singh said:
As requested before, learn to exchange ideas. But you can only do that by not hiding behind some facade. One can not be on the stage to perform while hiding behind the curtains.

I think it's a duty of people who have the wisdom to share their ideas to not judge those who don't even know where to begin asking those questions; and likewise, the askers need to understand that they may be out of their depth, and to accord respect to those answering.

I believe Shanger has received many thoughtful replies in this thread, and is wiser for it. But perhaps others can also not be so quick to judge.

rangesingh:

ikonkaar

Shanger · Jan 27, 2011

Tejwant Singh said:
It shows Shanger's parochial mindedness, nothing more. He/she has the gall to ask questions but feels insecure to disclose his/her own religion/faith. Bloody cheeky, to say the least.

spnadmin said:
I would say it sounds liess like paranoia and more like Ambarsaria ji thinks you are making light of of your own topic, and yes this is disrepectful, unless of course your are a teenager who is fond of testing social norms.

Has any of this been a learning experience for anyone? It won't be much longer, and the thread will be closed.

One last word: Please use a civil tongue.

Can't say that I am impressed by the double-standards. ^

Tejwant Singh said:
Yes, one can be a Sikh without wearing 5k's. As you do not seem to be aware of Sikh history, not all people present on the day of Vaisakhi in 1699 took Khandei di Pahul, i.e. adopted 5k's because it was not mandatory for a Sikh. Many Sikhs who do not adhere to 5k's are called Sehajdhari Sikhs. There was also an old tradition which still exists in many places in Punjab that the oldest son of a Hindu family is made a Sikh by his Hindu parents. Sikhi is a journey. It has nothing to do with any miracles as you were looking for some in Sikhi in your other thread.

You could have just said that in the first place, I now understand.

Mai Harinder Kaur said:
Of course, you can be a Sikh without the 5 Ks. I just don't understand why anyone would want to be a Sikh without having the Sikh experience in its entirety.
swordfight

And for that the 5Ks are mandatory

ikonkaar animatedkhanda1

Because someone might like the spiritual side/principles but not want to keep their hair etc. That is why I asked.

celtic said:
But for someone who knows nothing of mountains nor climbing, for one who has seen neither, how does he know the question is irrelevant? For one who doesn't know what there is to know, you can't expect a relevant question. But it's in the answers to the "irrelevant" questions that he or she can discover where to start looking.

Real talk ^

I think it's a duty of people who have the wisdom to share their ideas to not judge those who don't even know where to begin asking those questions; and likewise, the askers need to understand that they may be out of their depth, and to accord respect to those answering.

I believe Shanger has received many thoughtful replies in this thread, and is wiser for it. But perhaps others can also not be so quick to judge. rangesingh:

ikonkaar

To be honest I thought people would be more happy to help, consider it seva etc.

Nothing shows that I have bad motives, but even if I did, isn't it worth answering my questions for the people reading etc

Shanger · Jan 27, 2011

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
Can a child enroll at a school..and yet not wear the uniform or take his books along..still considered a "student" ?? Can he skip all classes, and be absent on exam days...and still be considered a "student" ?? The "Nswer" is YES.....but with the "A" missing. Such questions are what we Punjabis call DHUCHARBAZEE !! Questions without substance or desire for real answers..just plain DHUCHARS...like Can someone be a "football player" even if he runs away with the Ball ??? if he wants to play football with a ping pong ball ?? Can a Ping Pong game be played on a Football Field and still be called ping pong ?? Can a Badminton Player play badminton without a Net ?? A million DHUCHARS !!

Somebody wrote a poignant poetry about Sikhs...its in Punjabi...BUT its essential meaning goes like this..
I peeped into a class room full of "SIKHS"...and saw that NONE of them had any HEADS.
Outside the Class Room was a Tuk form the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..." JE TAU PREM KHELANN KA CHAO..SIR DHAR TALI GALEE MERI AYO...." meaning..IF you desire to play the Game of Love my sweet..ENTER with your head on your PALM !! Bhagat Kabir Ji.

Can a SIKH give His HEAD for FREEDOM of another's religion ?? Again the "Nswer is YES...Guru teg bahadur Ji did that to Fight for the freedom of religion of all Indians against forcible conversion. NO SIKH on the other hand ahs ever forcibly converted nayone..simply becasue to be a SIKH is an individual's personal choice..and how far he/she wnats to go..is alos his/her choice...5 Ks...5 Banis...a SIKH is always a SIKH..until the very last breath of life on earth. PROGRESS..always PROGRESS and CHARDEEKALLA is "SIKH".:happysingh::singhsippingcoffee:rangesingh::redturban::blueturban:icecreamkudiwelcomemunda swordfight :interestedsingh:

Thanks

Adi Nanaki · Jan 27, 2011

Some tenants of Sikhism are essential whether or not one becomes Amritdhari. From the time of Guru Nanak we have been told to live naturally--to not pluck or cut our hair or use intoxicants; to see God equally in all--men and women, people of all religions and castes; to chant God's Name as our soul's support and to serve others in God's Name.

<link rel="File-List" href="file://localhost/Users/gurupremkaur/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_filelist.xml"> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> </w:Compatibility> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> <style>  </style>   “Those who do not see God in all do not see God at all,” a quote from Yogi Bhajan, gives insight to all difficulties in our relationships to others and to the relationships we nurture within ourselves—our inner conflicts, doubts, stress and flights of emotion.
Seeing God within one’s self, coming into Oneness, gives a person perfect equipoise, where all facets of being unanimously accept divine union by God’s Own Hand.
Although we may put on a show of being charismatic and intelligent—great Sikhs, the lack of seeing God in others makes us cruel, judgmental, manipulative, murderous, suppressive, hateful brutes—orchestrated by God to awaken the victims of our actions.
Even in the face of suppression, those that see and truly listen consciously do the blessed tasks God sent them here to do.
So is the miraculous insight of Guru Ram Das in today’s Hukam from the Golden Temple of Amritsar:
<> siqgur pRswid ] (494-14)
ik-oa<sup>N</sup>kaar satgur parsaad.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
gUjrI mhlw 4 Gru 3 ] (494-15)
goojree mehlaa 4 ghar 3.
Goojaree, Fourth Mehl, Third House:
mweI bwp puqR siB hir ky kIey ] (494-15)
maa-ee baap putar sabh har kay kee-ay.
Mother, father and sons are all made by the Lord;
sBnw kau snbMDu hir kir dIey ]1] (494-15)
sabhnaa ka-o san-banDh har kar dee-ay. ||1||
the relationships of all are established by the Lord. ||1||
hmrw joru sBu rihE myry bIr ] (494-16)
hamraa jor sabh rahi-o mayray beer.
I have given up all my strength, O my brother.
hir kw qnu mnu sBu hir kY vis hY srIr ]1] rhwau ] (494-16)
har kaa tan man sabh har kai vas hai sareer. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The mind and body belong to the Lord, and the human body is entirely under His control. ||1||Pause||
Bgq jnw kau srDw Awip hir lweI ] (494-16)
bhagat janaa ka-o sarDhaa aap har laa-ee.
The Lord Himself infuses devotion into His humble devotees.
ivcy igRsq audws rhweI ]2] (494-17)
vichay garisat udaas rahaa-ee. ||2||
In the midst of family life, they remain unattached. ||2||
jb AMqir pRIiq hir isau bin AweI ] (494-17)
jab antar pareet har si-o ban aa-ee.
When inner love is established with the Lord,
qb jo ikCu kry su myry hir pRB BweI ]3] (494-18)
tab jo kichh karay so mayray har parabh bhaa-ee. ||3||
then whatever one does, is pleasing to my Lord God. ||3||
ijqu kwrY kMim hm hir lwey ] (494-18)
jit kaarai kamm ham har laa-ay.
I do those deeds and tasks which the Lord has set me to;
so hm krh ju Awip krwey ]4] (494-18)
so ham karah jo aap karaa-ay. ||4||
I do that which He makes me to do. ||4||
ijn kI Bgiq myry pRB BweI ] (494-19)
jin kee bhagat mayray parabh bhaa-ee.
Those whose devotional worship is pleasing to my God
qy jn nwnk rwm nwm ilv lweI ]5]1]7]16] (494-19)
tay jan naanak raam naam liv laa-ee. ||5||1||7||16||
- O Nanak, those humble beings center their minds lovingly on the Lord's Name. ||5||1||7||16||

namjiwankaur · Jan 27, 2011

Truth is God Sat Nam

I am not an amritdhari and I'm not ready to consider myself Sikh though I am practicing it. I had similar questions about the Sikh Rehat Maryada and how it came to be and how was it connected to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I did learn Guru Gobind Singh created the 5Ks. I mean no disrespect with my response and I hope my response shows I am a sincere Sikh (student/learner).

Long before I thought of making my path to God with Sikhism, I felt the 5 Ks were profound in their symbolism. If I wore a bangle or a Kara to remember Waheguru, it was an act of prayer, asking by the Grace of Guru never to forget the Guru. I bought a Bangle with the Lord's Prayer several years ago to wear for that reason. I recently bought a Kara. I didn't realize it was "owned" by Sikhs. In my heart, believe the 5Ks are for anyone as long as they bring one closer to God.

I also bought a pendant of a Kirpan to represent my desire to fearlessly defend freedom of religion and my desire to be a peacemaker or "soldier for peace".

There are Sikhs who seem to be doing what the gurus called rigid adherence to ritual. How many parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji say:

He alone is a Haji, a pilgrim to Mecca, who purifies his heart.

Spread your prayer mat by conquering your five desires, and you shall recognize the true religion.

In the same way, the 5Ks have nothing to do with achieving a state of bliss. It will not be achieved by the 5Ks and it will not be prevented by the 5Ks. That is the whole point of Sikhism.

I wrote something in response to my own concerns that the Sikh religion is suffering with a portion of the same rigid ideas about ritual that the gurus were against. I do not mean it as criticism or as an insult; I apologize from the bottom of my heart if it is insulting. It helped me to put things into words. I just know it is wrong to criticize other religions for their rituals and symbols of faith when we are guilty of doing it ourselves.

Let your Kesh be the length of your patience.
Let your Kanga be the broom which sweeps away your prejudice.
Let your Kachera be your desire for freedom of religion to prevail.
Let your Kirpan be your fight to bring peace to humanity.
Let your Kara be your inability to forget God is in us All.

How can one criticize others for their ways of worship or not worshiping yet be guilty of the same thing...attaching so much importance to a thing of trivial importance when it comes to the goal of Sikhism...remembering the Divine without empty rituals? And knowing the 5K is much more than an empty ritual, but out of reverence for the Guru Gobind Singh, isn't it just as important to respect the symbols of other religions which are acts of reverence toward their gurus/prophets/saviors/avatars/saints?

Jasnoor

Shanger said:
I read that they're not mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ. But the Sikh Rehat Maryada

I wiki'd

and found that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Rehat_Maryada

If they are just merely scholars why should their word be followed?

But then I read that Guru Gobind Singhji implemented them-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Ks

Does that mean that are compulsory for a Sikh?

Or would you say that Sikhi is more a state of mind?

Or is it that you can be a sikh without them, but just not as devout as one with them?

I'm not attacking the 5ks by the way, personally I think karas look cool and kirpans are terrific ideas.

Ambarsaria · Jan 27, 2011

jasnoor ji very well said and explained. Your depth of understanding and expressions with respect have already gone past mine whereas I may have started with advantages of born a sikh, age, culturally more opportunities and so on.

May your mind always be free to express for me one of the biggest gift of our gurus and their teachings.

"Like teacher, like student" , I kind of derived it out of the chauvinistic saying "Like father, like son"

Sat Sri Akalmundahugkaurhug

PS: As I read the Sikh Rehat Maryada over and over again I believe it has answers to question like in this thread clearly if one is in tune.

One has to remember that it was drafted through the best scholars of the times and they were no less proficient than any scholars at present.

For Example:

[SIZE=-1]The Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh[/SIZE]

Chapter II and III describe in very simple terms basic recommendations in "Personal Living" and "Individual Spirituality.

It is in Chaper XIII [SIZE=-1]Panthic Rehni (Facets of Corporate Sikh Life) that further [/SIZE]aspects of baptization, 5K's, Kurehats are stated with the contents as,

[SIZE=-1] The essential facets of Panthic life are :[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. Guru Panth (the Panth's Guru status);
2. The ceremony of ambrosial initiation.
3. The statute of chastisement for aberrations;
4. The statute of collective resolution (Gurmata).
5. The appeal against local decisions. [/SIZE]

Do I have questions for some parts or language. Not much but perhaps in one or two sentences. That is when I read it with an open mind and intent to understand.

Can You Be A Sikh Without The 5ks?

Do You Need The 5Ks To Be A Sikh?

Yes, all of them are compulsory, without them you cannot call yourself a Sikh

No, Sikhi is more a state of mind, they are not compulsory.

You can be a Sikh without them, but with them you will be a better/more devout Sikh.

celtic

Shanger

Shanger

Adi Nanaki

namjiwankaur

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

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