Coming Soon: Hefty Fines For Wearing Burqa In France

[BhagatSingh]

Who are miltant secularists to decide that all religions are prone to same problem?

lol you are right! with such childish questions, the debate will be quite childish.

is it not the same mentality that all kafirs are bad?

You equate:
"Religions are prone to the same problem" with "Kaffirs are bad"
That is childish.

Religion is a system, where as Kaffirs are people. You cannot equate the two, first of all.

Why are kaffirs bad? Because Quran says so. This is the mentality.

Why are all religions prone to the same problem?
Because they are all dogmatic in nature.

Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.

Read the bolded sentence. This is not true for something like secularism, which has no authority, and this is where you have freedom of speech. You are able to raise doubts on the laws, etc.
Whereas, with Dogmatic systems like religion. You cannot raise doubts, and in a bad scenario, you don't have freedom of speech. You cannot diverge from the system, you cannot change from it because it is God's word.
The talibanistic societies are evidence of this. They CANNOT be disputed, doubted or changed!

The fact that there are several gradients of secularism like you mention US, UK, and France. Shows that the system is flexible and once you present valid reasoning for changing it, it will be changed.
It can be disputed, doubted and changed!

The difference in the mentality also includes the reasoning that is provided by the texts and the proponents of the system from which the mentality emerges.



And what is the problem with practicing religion in the privacy of one's own home?? We call it spirituality, what we should be after, in the first place. No type of clothing is going to make you more spiritual, and parading in the public, will only inflate the ego, which has a direct negative impact on one's spirituality.

PS If you think a debate is childish, perhaps you should not be a part of it.

 

[kds1980]

And what is the problem with practicing religion in the privacy of one's own home?? We call it spirituality, what we should be after, in the first place. No type of clothing is going to make you more spiritual, and parading in the public, will only inflate the ego, which has a direct negative impact on one's spirituality.

Who are you any Government to decide what type of clothing makes a person more or less spiritual.Is it not imposing their views?

PS If you think a debate is childish, perhaps you should not be a part of it.

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[kds1980]

Bhagat singh here I want to show you something
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the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, which France signed on to in 1948, states in Article 18:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
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Now making laws against burqa or turban is france is not voilating Human rights .The declaration France itself signed?

 

[Sinister]

but what about nudists? why are they discriminated against and incarcerated for indecent exposure if they were to roam around baring it all on a hot day? where are their rights? who is fighting for them?

what about if my religious persuasion told me not to wear clothes sewn together by child laborers in some distant land? and to wear and bare the skin that god gave me with pride? what about if i was female from a tribal area of the Omo valley in ethopia visting france?

the existance of cultural norms can make laws that discriminate against a minorities practices. the wailing cry of superfiscially distressed citizens is louder and more resonant in free societies compared to despotic/religious/hegemonic ones (where the majority of civil liberty violations occur...but oddly the least amount of outrage is expressed)
this fine/levy IS an outrage because a secular society should be above and beyond and protect the rights of its citizens when they need it the most. There are other ways to persuade people not to do things rather than banning them outright...media campaign, with the help of islamic feminist groups should have been the first step before any law to ban them outright was implemented. (i bet no such outreach was ever attempted).

all this law does is provide more cannon fodder for the nutbag islamic extremists...this is a cultural war and carrot is sometimes better than the stick

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sinister ji, I don't think its the governments duty to organize such things

media campaign, with the help of islamic feminist groups should have been the first step before any law to ban them outright was implemented.

Islamic Feminists or rather any otehr feminist group should have raised a voice a long time ago. The fact that they didn't may suggest the nature of the problem. This religion of peace is not exactly peaceful... If nothing else, banning is a short-term solution.

I don't really support the fine but its a way to enforce the law, I guess.

all this law does is provide more cannon fodder for the nutbag islamic extremists...this is a cultural war and carrot is sometimes better than the stick

I have been watching Pat Condell's youtube videos (link to one of them on the first page), and he talks about how they (british) are bending over backwards to please these people. Eventually the Sharia Law was being implemented into courts, backed up by British law. This is not a good situation for many muslims to be in.
If France, is on the hard end of the secularist scale then Britan is definitely on the soft end. So, perhaps middle ground is key here.

I am interested in knowing exactly how banning the burkha provides cannon fodder for extremists.

 

[Sinister]

Bhagat Singh ji,

the question is about liberty and choice. If a woman wants to wear a burka (for whatever ridiculous reason) then so be it...who are we to tread on their rights?

however if a young girl is being coerced into wearing a burqa then the appropriate set of laws should be implemented in protecting her from community and in many cases family.

Governments consist of a multi-body politic of different persuasions. It wont be hard to find a political party that voices strong condemnation of such a dress...and they will be taken to the polls...and the votes will be tallied...and the people will voice an opinion.

but you cannot take away rights. if you do then their are no such thing as rights...you are left with only privileges (that will continue to shrink).

I am interested in knowing exactly how banning the burkha provides cannon fodder for extremists.

this law is an act of persuasion. Basically the French government is saying (indirectly) that it does NOT want the islamic zealot class roaming around on their streets. and it might work in breaking an ethnic enclave within france and aid in integration (or at least letting more moderate muslims in)

But whenever the question of tolerance arises on the world stage, the islamic fundamentalist will use this case to paint the entire western countries as an unnaccepting intolerant land...which it clearly is not.

so this law does more harm than good to the reputation of liberty in the west.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sinister ji,

Bhagat Singh ji,

the question is about liberty and choice. If a woman wants to wear a burka (for whatever ridiculous reason) then so be it...who are we to tread on their rights?

We have no right to do that. But like you mention below.

however if a young girl is being coerced into wearing a burqa then the appropriate set of laws should be implemented in protecting her from community and in many cases family.

I think it would be very difficult to enforce such laws. I think those women who are being coerced now get an excuse for not wearing it... "you know, it's illegal."

Governments consist of a multi-body politic of different persuasions. It wont be hard to find a political party that voices strong condemnation of such a dress...and they will be taken to the polls...and the votes will be tallied...and the people will voice an opinion.

but you cannot take away rights. if you do then their are no such thing as rights...you are left with only privileges (that will continue to shrink).

true

this law is an act of persuasion. Basically the French government is saying (indirectly) that it does NOT want the islamic zealot class roaming around on their streets. and it might work in breaking an ethnic enclave within france and aid in integration (or at least letting more moderate muslims in)

pretty much

But whenever the question of tolerance arises on the world stage, the islamic fundamentalist will use this case to paint the entire western countries as an unnaccepting intolerant land...which it clearly is not.

You know they have been doing that already, they don't need such laws! They will say look how the western men dress their women.. like prostitutes, to give you one example.

But to tell you the truth they don't even need use this tactic, they can go on a global jihad by following the teachings found in their texts! They can persuade moderates to wage war by showing them the fundamentals of the faith.
Robert Spencer from Jihad Watch speaks quite openly about this.

so this law does more harm than good to the reputation of liberty in the west.

Well, on the surface of it, it does seem that way.

 

[kds1980]

I think it would be very difficult to enforce such laws. I think those women who are being coerced now get an excuse for not wearing it... "you know, it's illegal."

there is other side of story and that If a husband or father is strict muslim then he may not allow her wife or daughter to study or work if he really believe That wearing a Burqa is a must for women

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

All that banning the burqa will accomplish is to make conservative Muslim women prisoners in their own homes.

 

[roab1]

The burqa coveys a very strong message.
1. Man and Woman are not Equal.

For me it is enough to know that Guru Amardas forbade his women disciples from wearing Burqas.

 

[kds1980]

The burqa coveys a very strong message.
1. Man and Woman are not Equal.

For me it is enough to know that Guru Amardas forbade his women disciples from wearing Burqas.

What if tomorrow France or any other country says that Turban and Patka's are sign of oppression for Sikh boy's and men as There is always pressure on sikh boys to wear it so they should also be banned?