svea00, your English is beautiful and I understood you quite well.
Thank you :2::shy:, I don´t deserve this.
svea00, your English is beautiful and I understood you quite well.
I like what Guruka Singh says about it when he says bana is something you should do for yourself, not for others. It is a reflection of your commitment, not to distinguish yourself.
The Panj Piare are Guruji's own saroop. The Panj Piare is Guru. When Dasam Pita Ji invested Gurgaddhi into Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he also invested it into Panj Piare and the Khalsa Panth. You mention legalism and rules as straying off the path. Yet Gurbani is not manmade legalism and rules, its Guruji's hukam. When we stray from Guruji's hukam, we are off Guruji's path. Dasam Pita Ji did not include his own bani into Shabad Guru Ji. But it is still bani. And it is still the Panthic tradition. And there are still supportive sources to corroborate what Dasam Pita Ji said about the Khalsa. The Panj Piare was invested with Guruship when Guruji selected the 5 beloved ones and Himself bowed down to them. It's not a bureaucracy, it's a path with pyaar! Panj Piare make corporate decisions for the Panth.Interesting, that the very Panj Piare that instruct you not to think of anyone except the Gurus as your savior are now being presented as the Guru. Wouldn't that be thinking of them as your savior?
:hmm:
For me the point of the OP is to be careful not to let legalism overtake us. Like bureauocracy, when the rule becomes more important that the purpose for which it was instituted, we have strayed off the path.
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]a. The Guru Panth (Panth's status of Guruhood) means the whole body of committed baptised (Amritdhari) Sikhs. This body was fostered by all the ten Gurus and the tenth Guru gave it its final shape and invested it with Guruhood.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India[/SIZE]
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ok, just a couple of things i have to mention... actually, one very important aspect of bana is that we are SUPPOSED to stand out in a crowd. we are supposed to be readily recognized so people can find us for assistance. we are never allowed to hide from danger or anything else, we must stand and face every injustice. our bana makes us equals, makes us kings and queens. in Guru ji's time, only rulers could wear Turbans. only certain castes could carry weapons. Guru ji gave EVERY Sikh a turban, a crown, making us ALL rulers. and making us all equals. (this really upset the mughals, by the way! lol...)
so in a way, it is for others as well as for us.
also, one thing no one has mentioned in this thread is the concept of Miri/Piri - Sant/Saphai. if we ONLY focus on the exterior, we're missing half of the equation. however, the opposite is also true. if we ONLY focus on "being sikh on the inside" (as many people like to say), we're also missing half of what it means to be Sikh.
just a thought.
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Interesting, that the very Panj Piare that instruct you not to think of anyone except the Gurus as your savior are now being presented as the Guru. Wouldn't that be thinking of them as your savior?
how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men? they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering amrit. after the conclusion of the amrit sanchar they go back to being regular (or rather extraordinary ) Gursikhs.
The door to liberation is the dasm duar. Naam Japna is the engine of our spiritual practice because the Naam Gurmatara we are given has the power to clean our subtle energy channels and pierce through the barriers in our 6 chakras allowing the energy to ascend and unlock the tenth gate, crown chakra. Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique.
So is it fair to assume that nobody achieved this level of consciousness before the establishment of the first Khalsa?
Is Guruji capable of imparting Naam to whom he pleases? I thought this was something that came from inside and not outside and was only imparted to us by the Guru's grace.
Kind of like this: YouTube - What is Guru?
Thanks for your patience
That's how I understand it. Not that they were transformed to deities or Guru.
Are the Panj Piare human beings? Do they instruct you not to take any as savior other than the Gurus? How, then, can you say they ARE Guru? Doesn't that mean you are taking them as savior, exactly as they instructed you not to?
This is my question.
My opinions about legalism are just my own and we will not agree on that. But I would appreciate if you had an answer to the above question.
Thank you Respectfully,
caroline
I am not questioning the legitimacy of the panj piare, I am questioning what sounded to me like an implication of their deity.
I have answered your question a few times now.Originally Posted by jasleen_kaur
how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men? they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering amrit. after the conclusion of the amrit sanchar they go back to being regular (or rather extraordinary ) Gursikhs.
I understand this action as a symbol of humility and oneness. No one is high or low. There are many examples of royal, or holy teachers, leaders, prophets etc, serving people who would be considered lower than them as a symbol of proper humility and equality. Just like the 4 doors on the Golden Temple and the sharing of food in the gurdwara. (I won't mention the examples from other religions but you know what I'm thinking anyway. )
That's how I understand it. Not that they were transformed to deities or Guru.
According to this rather loose definition of Naam ਨਾਮੁ (which literally means God's Name), it's a thing unique for each person, it's univeral, it doesn't belong to this or that religion. And it's only people being "rigid" who say "this is the only mantra...no one owns it...""So Guru gives you a secret, he gives you a formula. And that is, for you, a thing you need individually and personally to connect yourself to that touchstone within yourself. And that thing is unique for each person. And that thing is what we call Naam. So people who are rigid in saying, "this is the only mantra or Naam is this and Naam is not that... It's a state of being. It's a frequency. It's an experience. It's deep. It's universal. No one owns it. It doesn't belong to this religion or that religion. It's much deeper than that." -Guruka Singh Khalsa
No, lol. Forgive that I'm not doing a better job of explaining. I think maybe we need a brahmgyani here. I'm doing my best but I'm not one.Interesting. Intermediaries. Like Sikh priests passing out the body of Christ.
Wow. There are so many different philosophies the Sikh community.
Thank you for your explanation.