Cycles Of The Soul: Creation, Growth, Death Or Transformation Into Other Souls?

prakash.s.bagga · Mar 18, 2011

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I may further clarify a point that the any tuk before RAHAO can not be considered as question as the RAHAO is not the denotion for questionmark? The word RAHAO stands for 'PAUSE".In this case certainly the line before the Tuk RAHAO contitutes the MAIN THEME or Subject of the whole SABAD.
Any way this is how I understand about the significance of any Tuk before RAHAO.Your understanding may be different and I shall be cautious in future to see that no such doubt or confusion is created on this account.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Ambarsaria · Mar 18, 2011

prakash.s.bagga said:
AMBARSARIA Ji,
I may further clarify a point that the any tuk before RAHAO can not be considered as question as the RAHAO is not the denotion for questionmark? The word RAHAO stands for 'PAUSE".In this case certainly the line before the Tuk RAHAO contitutes the MAIN THEME or Subject of the whole SABAD.
Any way this is how I understand about the significance of any Tuk before RAHAO.Your understanding may be different and I shall be cautious in future to see that no such doubt or confusion is created on this account.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash S. Bagga ji I understand the following and rest of your stuff as it is well described by Professor Sahib Singh ji,

The word RAHAO stands for 'PAUSE".

It is a pause to think. It is as if asking yourself what one thinks! It is a prodding to use one's brain rather than have ready made answers available. It is this pausing and thinking which creates understanding within a specific shabad as well as creates one's understanding of the shabad to relate to rest of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.[/QUOTE]

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The following general comments not related to Prakash S. Bagga ji's post

A very strong recommendation from Professor Sahib Singh ji that one should never look for "Tuks" (single lines) as a way to verify and/or support any conclusions. This is full of traps for self and traps conveyed through "Andh Vishwas" (blind belief) followers who may trust one based on any reason of general knowledge about Gurbani, good outer "rehni-behni" (personal and panthic living). This is a trick perfected and played by almost all Babas, Jogis and Sants on hundreds of thousands of Sikhs everyday.

Sat Sri Akal.

prakash.s.bagga · Mar 18, 2011

AMBARSARIA Ji,

I am neither a BABa.nor JOgi nor any so called Saint.
I am surprised to go thru your response regarding your "OWN CREATED " confusion where is the need for such non courteous approach.
I suppose you are holding a respectable position so is everyone else.Err is Human and there should be no hitch in accepting the errorwhatsoever.
There is no point in making the shots from others shoulders .We are here to share the views only not liable to offer any unreasonable explanations which are uncalled for,
Shri Ambarsaria Ji You should have some firm Locus standi of your own.

With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

spnadmin · Mar 18, 2011

Prakash S Bagga ji

I myself did not read Ambarsaria ji's comments about babas to be directed at you either. He was imho pointing to the constant danger that comes from throwing out individual tuks. And to the nefarious use that babas and others make of this practice. You were not the target of that comment. It was an appeal to understand the problems created by citing individual tuks out of context. .

prakash.s.bagga · Mar 18, 2011

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well I wrote what I felt but I appreciate you have taken a positive view of my feelings.
I fully agree with what is your cocern and we are sharing views on Gurbaani to understand people their own invovement in understanding Gurbaani rather than be trap of Babas/Jogees and so called saints.
I may inform you out ofreference that I am a Qualified Enginner with background of faculty teachings.Gurbaani deliberation is my daily part and parcel of my life.I am 100% a non political person.
You will always find mewith you in sharing of common views on Gurbaani .

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga

spnadmin · Mar 18, 2011

REturning to the shabad, I have copied Professor Sahib Singh's commentary, along with Dr. Manmohan Singh's translation, to get the full flavor. Dr. Manmohan Singh's translation does differ from the earlier one that I posted to some extent.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
There is but One God. By True Guru's grace, He is obtained.
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਇੱਕ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
Rāg bihāgaṛā mėhlā 9.
Rag Bihagra 9th Guru.

ਰਾਗ ਬੇਹਾਗੜਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਗਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ।
ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਊ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਤਪੀ ਪਚਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਅਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਲੋਗ ਸਿਆਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Har kī gaṯ nėh ko▫ū jānai. Jogī jaṯī ṯapī pacẖ hāre ar baho log si▫āne. ||1|| rahā▫o.

No one knows the state of the Lord. The renunciators, celibates, penitents and good many wise men have utterly failed. Pause.

ਗਤਿ = ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ। ਕੋਊ = ਕੋਈ ਭੀ। ਪਚਿ = ਖਪ ਖਪ ਕੇ। ਹਾਰੇ = ਥੱਕ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਅਰੁ = ਅਤੇ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਜੋਗੀ, ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਤਪੀ, ਅਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਬਥੇਰੇ ਸਿਆਣੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਖਪ ਖਪ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ਗਏ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਕਿਹੋ ਜਿਹਾ ਹੈ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

ਛਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਕਰਈ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਰਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥ ਰੀਤੇ ਭਰੇ ਭਰੇ ਸਖਨਾਵੈ ਯਹ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Cẖẖin mėh rā▫o rank ka▫o kar▫ī rā▫o rank kar dāre. Rīṯe bẖare bẖare sakẖnāvai yėh ṯā ko bivhāre. ||1||
In a trice, He makes a pauper a king, and a king a pauper. What is empty He fills, and what is full He empties, Such are His ways.

ਰਾਉ = ਰਾਜਾ। ਰੰਕ ਕਉ = ਕੰਗਾਲ ਨੂੰ। ਕਰਈ = ਕਰਏ, ਕਰੈ, ਬਣਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਯਹ = ਇਹ। ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ = ਨਿੱਤ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ।੧।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਇਕ ਛਿਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੰਗਾਲ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਜਾ ਬਣਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, ਰਾਜੇ ਨੂੰ ਕੰਗਾਲ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਖ਼ਾਲੀ ਭਾਂਡਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਭਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਭਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਖ਼ਾਲੀ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਗ਼ਰੀਬਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਮੀਰ ਤੇ ਅਮੀਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਬਣਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ)-ਇਹ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਨਿੱਤ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਹੈ।੧।

ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥੨॥
Apnī mā▫i▫ā āp pasārī āpėh ḏekẖanhārā. Nānā rūp ḏẖare baho rangī sabẖ ṯe rahai ni▫ārā. ||2||
His mammon, He Himself has spread and He Himself is the Beholder thereof. He assumes many forms and plays many sports, yet he remains distinct from all.

ਪਸਾਰੀ = ਖਿਲਾਰੀ ਹੋਈ। ਆਪਹਿ = ਆਪ ਹੀ। ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ = ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਨਾਨਾ = ਕਈ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ। ਧਰੇ = ਬਣਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਧਾਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ = ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਰੰਗਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ। ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਨਿਆਰਾ = ਵੱਖਰਾ ਹੈ।੨।

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਇਸ ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਵਿਚ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪ ਖਿਲਾਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਉਹ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਰੰਗਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਈ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਧਾਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਰੂਪਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਖਰਾ ਭੀ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o. Sagal bẖaram ṯaj Nānak parāṇī cẖaran ṯāhi cẖiṯ lā▫i▫o. ||3||1||2||
Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world. Says Nanak, O mortal, lay aside thou all thy doubts and fix thy mind on His feet.

ਅਗਨਤ = ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਾਹ ਜਾ ਸਕਣ। ਅਪਾਰੁ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਪਾਰਲਾ ਬੰਨਾ ਨਾਹ ਲੱਭ ਸਕੇ। ਅਲਖ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਮਝ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਹ ਆ ਸਕੇ। ਨਿਰੰਜਨ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ। ਜਿਹ = ਜਿਸ (ਹਰੀ) ਨੇ। ਭਰਮਾਇਓ = ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਤਾਹਿ ਚਰਨਿ = ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਲਾਇਓ = ਲਾਇਆ ਹੈ।੩।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ, ਉਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਅਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਹੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ) ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-) ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਭਟਕਣਾਂ ਤਿਆਗ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ।੩।੧।੨।

spnadmin · Mar 18, 2011

Also, if anyone has the inclination. Why do the translations differ so much on one word. One word changes the direction of meaning in a very big way.

Manmohan Singh translates:

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o.
Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world.

Professor Sant Singh translates

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, who has misled the entire world.

"Lured away" and "misled the entire world" convey very different meanings -- and in the case of the second, "misled the entire world" the sense of Akaal as cosmic trouble-maker is quite strong. The differences cast completely different ideas of how we related to the divine nature.

Ambarsaria · Mar 18, 2011

spnadmin said:
Also, if anyone has the inclination. Why do the translations differ so much on one word. One word changes the direction of meaning in a very big way.

Manmohan Singh translates:

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o.
Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world.

…… wrong translation --- >x Incomputable -->x implies calculation ---> what is stated is "uncoutable"

…… wrong translation --- >x Lured away --> x implies sending into or leading to a specific but mis-leading or untrue path.
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Professor Sant Singh translates

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, who has misled the entire world

.…… wrong translation -[/FONT]--> Incalculable ---> uncountable[/FONT]
[/FONT]
.…… wrong translation -[/FONT]--> misled ----> (gotten) confused

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[/FONT] Professor Sahib Singh ji

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o. Sagal bẖaram ṯaj Nānak parāṇī cẖaran ṯāhi cẖiṯ lā▫i▫o. ||3||1||2||
Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world. Says Nanak, O mortal, lay aside thou all thy doubts and fix thy mind on His feet.

ਅਗਨਤ = ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਾਹ ਜਾ ਸਕਣ। ਅਪਾਰੁ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਪਾਰਲਾ ਬੰਨਾ ਨਾਹ ਲੱਭ ਸਕੇ। ਅਲਖ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਮਝ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਹ ਆ ਸਕੇ। ਨਿਰੰਜਨ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ। ਜਿਹ = ਜਿਸ (ਹਰੀ) ਨੇ। ਭਰਮਾਇਓ = ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਤਾਹਿ ਚਰਨਿ = ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਲਾਇਓ = ਲਾਇਆ ਹੈ।੩।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ, ਉਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਅਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਹੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ) ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-) ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਭਟਕਣਾਂ ਤਿਆਗ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ।੩।੧।੨।

Ambarsaria Translation below for consideration:

The virtues of higher soul can not be counted, the end can not be determined, the embodiment cannot be understood, the immaculate has got the universe confused. Nanak whoever has come to his feet has removed the confusion and done so by dis-associating from yearnings for possessions (maya).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Lured away" and "misled the entire world" convey very different meanings -- and in the case of the second, "misled the entire world" the sense of Akaal as cosmic trouble-maker is quite strong. The differences cast completely different ideas of how we related to the divine nature.

They both convey very different meanings indeed. In my assessment (humble as it may), these are both wrong.

My attempt at correct translation is included in the quoted area.

Sat Sri Akal.

spnadmin · Mar 18, 2011

Ambarsaria ji

Thanks. They are both untenable: "lured" and "misled." Misled bothered me the most. In my limited way, the idea of yearnings for possessions (maya) seem strongly implied in the Punjabi verb. Almost like "lost in the trappings of maya." The idea of the tuk is not that elusive that a better English verb could not be chosen.

Ambarsaria · Mar 19, 2011

spnadmin said:
Ambarsaria ji

Thanks. They are both untenable: "lured" and "misled." Misled bothered me the most. In my limited way, the idea of yearnings for possessions (maya) seem strongly implied in the Punjabi verb. Almost like "lost in the trappings of maya." The idea of the tuk is not that elusive that a better English verb could not be chosen.

spnadmin ji, you are much more experienced as I have joined very recently.

Have you come across many such discrepancies or questions?

I will be happy to review and help if needed if there are specific items that need to be looked at.

I have seen lot of issues with Kirtan video translations but admiring the effort from the people I look the other way.

Sat Sri Akal.

spnadmin · Mar 19, 2011

Ambarsaria said:
spnadmin ji, you are much more experienced as I have joined very recently.

Have you come across many such discrepancies or questions?

I will be happy to review and help if needed if there are specific items that need to be looked at.

I have seen lot of issues with Kirtan video translations but admiring the effort from the people I look the other way.

Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsaria ji

I have not been keeping count -- but there are discrepancies and when i see them they are jarring in a way. So I am left thinking "This can't be right!" even though a translation can never be an exact transformation of the Punjabi. If you are willing to resolve the contradictions, then I will keep better tabs on this. Usually I just remark in a thread and move on.

It is hard for me because my Punjabi is extremely limited, and what is there only goes as far as the language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

It would actually be good for many of us, and not just me. Maybe the thing to do is start a thread in Gurmat Vichaar in which these tough nuts are cracked, as they come up. It would also provide a place for a more serious consideration of Guru Granth Darpan. We would be the first forum to do this -- conduct an online/web-based Sahib Singh ji Translation Clinic. It may also bring in more interest from India-based, Punjabi speakers who don't have too much to read here, but have something to offer.

Thanks for the brainstorming opportunity. Let me find an example from the past, and then start the thread.

p/s Sometimes in grace and good manners it is right to look the other way. Picking points is not always called for. The task of translation is not easy. How long have Sikhs been at this -- 50 years at most?

Ambarsaria · Mar 19, 2011

prakash.s.bagga said:
SPNADMIN Ji/AMBARSARIAji,
This is a great idea to have relook into Gurbaani understanding.If possible it should be done with consideration of proper grammer of each word invoved in the message.
At present we do not have a Dictionary of Gurbaani Voacabulary as a reference book.
Your deliberations can be a part of Online Dictionary of Gurbaani words.
This would be a great SEWA for the SANGAT.
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga ji I suggest we don't put any constraints as for example with what you are saying (proper Grammar) one would exclude 99.999+ % of the Sikh world from participating and inversely imply that there is no way they can understand Gurbani. That is the last thing I want to see and I am sure that is not necessarily what you are implying.

Let people share their understanding however achieved without limits (grammar, etc.) and as long as love, understanding, sincerity and a dash humbleness is in the mix, it could be very worthwhile. Let people take baby steps, jog or run with the choice of pace and time to their own capability level.

Just some humble comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

spnadmin · Mar 19, 2011

Thread is ready for action:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/34913-translation-tuk-does-not-seem-right.html

findingmyway · Mar 19, 2011

Ambarsaria ji,
Some excellent thoughts! My comment is that you imply that soul is something external? I do not consider that to be so. I think of soul more as conscience, consciousness and more! Soul is the feeling that accompanies spirituality. It is part of us from the beginning. What happens after we die to it? Gurbani tells us we cannot know! That is my understanding to date but am still learning......

Ambarsaria · Mar 19, 2011

findingmyway said:
Ambarsaria ji,
Some excellent thoughts! My comment is that you imply that soul is something external? I do not consider that to be so. I think of soul more as conscience, consciousness and more! Soul is the feeling that accompanies spirituality. It is part of us from the beginning. What happens after we die to it? Gurbani tells us we cannot know! That is my understanding to date but am still learning......

findingmyway ji my points raised in the thread are driven via the following hypothesis,

Souls regardless of how these come about interact with other souls
The interaction between souls has a definitive impact on each of the interacting souls
The interactions lead to further development and enriching of souls
Whereas the interactions will be easily observable in communication between people, between people and life forms, and non-physical manifestations. The interactions can prevail beyond the living beings interacting to the point of,
- Memories of actions of souls of people who passed away,
  - Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is an example of a living soul of our Gurus and the contributors way past their physical existence
    - Continuing to impact and enrich through understanding
- This also applies to your friends, family, strangers and even interactions we are having at spn
- Soul is a living and shared entity that continues to receive as well as give in various forms to others from the past, the present and well into the future
Hence souls are a time transformational entities that will prevail to the last essence of life on earth and the universe
In spite of all of the above, any individual soul is not something like something in a bottle that is trapped and stays as is only to keep reappearing as the same for ever in different human shells
- It grows, transforms, spawns new souls, and transforms again in never ending cycle
- There are no bad souls
People manifestations of actions can bypass the intents of their souls and as such even though all souls are noble, people's actions may not always be noble in spite of their souls
- "Like an angel soul trapped in an otherwise lesser of a person in their actions.
  - Doing while lying to your inner self
  - Ignoring the good of your inner self
  - Etc.

I hope that clarifies for philosophical dialog.

Any comments!

Sat Sri Akal.

spnadmin · Mar 19, 2011

admin note: I have just removed more than a page of discussion about Gurbani Grammar from this thread. All discussion should be on the topic of of the thread title, and thread starter article.Thanks.

prakash.s.bagga · Mar 20, 2011

AMBARSARIA JI,Divine Greetings,
There is a SABAD pp686 Raag DhanaasaiM5 Ghar 6 Astapadi.
I think this SABAD may be helpful in getting answer to some of the questions related to
cycle,growth and transformation of soul/souls.
I would request you to post this SABAD for reference.
The SABAD starts as ..JO Jo JOONI AAEO

Prakash.S.Bagga

Ambarsaria · Mar 20, 2011

prakash.s.bagga said:
AMBARSARIA JI,Divine Greetings,
There is a SABAD pp686 Raag DhanaasaiM5 Ghar 6 Astapadi.
I think this SABAD may be helpful in getting answer to some of the questions related to
cycle,growth and transformation of soul/souls.
I would request you to post this SABAD for reference.
The SABAD starts as ..JO Jo JOONI AAEO

Prakash.S.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga ji I reviewed the Shabad per Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan and it has nothing much to do with this thread.

In my most humblest of opinions, you may again be focusing on the front end of the Shabad (even for reference purposes) in this case the word "JOONI" (human, animal, insect, worm (centipede), etc.) which referes to categories of life manifestations and not "soul".

As one reads the full Shabad there is no inconsistency to other Shabads. I think you may need to question how you search for such Shabads and with what intent? What it achieves other than kind of doubt on record every time you post these front lines?

Please at least describe the essence and reason in your own ways why anyone should post a Shabad for you other than saying it "may" help.

I feel like the following in such situations,

Example: I am thirsty to know others views and understanding starting the thread,

edited

Looking for words and phrases where a similar question has been addressed in Gurbani is a 2 minute search,
Value is in sharing the understanding and if you have any unique views different from Professor Sahib Singh ji.

If you have different views, please post your translation and understanding of the Shabad and its relation to this thread.

Please correct me!

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.

prakash.s.bagga · Mar 20, 2011

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It is quite possible I have not understood the essence meaning of the word "SOUL" of this topic.
But as being mentioned right at the start SOUL as inner Self my understanding is related to this 'INNER SELF"
My views with reference to this INNER SELF are that I consider this innerself as the same as infinite OUTERSELF.In this consideration 'INNERSELF" doesnot take Birth,
So if innerself does not take birth there is no question of its ,growing,dieng and transforming.
Now you may clarify me pl where I am missing my understanding.?

AMBARSARIA Ji, we are GUR BHAI and this acceptance is more than than enough
to keep us going together.

Prakash.S.Bagga

findingmyway · Mar 20, 2011

Ambarsaria ji,
This can easily become a thread of opinions. A good way forward might be to post gurbani and relate that to what Guruji is telling us about the soul. This was attempted a few months ago but people quickly became overwhelmed with the number of references to the soul. I think you have a good chance of success with the high level of analysis you bring to judgement.

Here's a shabad to get us started from Ang 137. I am posting the given English translation as I eagerly await your interpretation, I do not necessarily agree with the translation here.

ਸੰਤ ਅਰਾਧਨਿ ਸਦ ਸਦਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਬਖਸਿੰਦੁ ॥ Santh Araadhhan Sadh Sadhaa Sabhanaa Kaa Bakhasindh ||
The Saints worship and adore Him forever and ever; He is the Forgiver of all.

ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦਿਤੀਨੁ ਜਿੰਦੁ ॥ Jeeo Pindd Jin Saajiaa Kar Kirapaa Dhitheen Jindh ||
He fashioned the soul and the body, and by His Kindness, He bestowed the soul.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਜਪੀਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ Gur Sabadhee Aaraadhheeai Japeeai Niramal Manth ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, worship and adore Him, and chant His Pure Mantra.

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ॥ Keemath Kehan N Jaaeeai Paramaesur Baeanth ||
His Value cannot be evaluated. The Transcendent Lord is endless.

ਜਿਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਰਾਇਣੋ ਸੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥ Jis Man Vasai Naraaeino So Keheeai Bhagavanth ||
That one, within whose mind the Lord abides, is said to be most fortunate.

ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਲੋਚਾ ਪੂਰੀਐ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੰਤੁ ॥ Jeea Kee Lochaa Pooreeai Milai Suaamee Kanth ||
The soul's desires are fulfilled, upon meeting the Master, our Husband Lord.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜੀਵੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਰੀ ਦੋਖ ਸਭੇ ਹੀ ਹੰਤੁ ॥ Naanak Jeevai Jap Haree Dhokh Sabhae Hee Hanth ||
Nanak lives by chanting the Lord's Name; all sorrows have been erased.

ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੋ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੰਤੁ ॥੩॥ Dhin Rain Jis N Visarai So Hariaa Hovai Janth ||3||
One who does not forget Him, day and night, is continually rejuvenated. ||3||

This is very exciting and could turn out to be an incredible thread!!

Cycles Of The Soul: Creation, Growth, Death Or Transformation Into Other Souls?

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