Definition Of Sant In Sikh Religion

[Harry Haller]

What motivates me is that I wish to accomplish the goal. That can’t be done as an individual. There is a collective consciousness going on. In fact the whole dream has to wake up so I’d like to stick around and help others do just that. I can’t do that by crashing buses into things.

agreed, its the child in me, so the goal is for the whole dream to wake up? which only happens when you completely merge with God?

And you are concerned about only being a bit character. Well no, because that character is not YOU. Just like in the dream where you literally saw through the characters eyes and thought you were that character so too is the same in this world. Only the physical body of Harry is not really who you are. Remember only one dreamer and and only one consciousness. It’s not that you are a bit character and a nobody who will cease to exist. More like you WJKK one day wake up and realize you never really were Harry... same as the pilot... or the bus crasher LOL

In my own way I guess I have woken up, my goal is slightly different, its nothing. When your goal is nothing, then the dream becomes nothing too, I now do understand your concept, completely, thank you for taking the time to explain,

however,

I still wish to know how seriously you play the game, regardless of the end goal, to me, nothing matters, its quite peaceful, given we both know its a game, what matters to you?

 

[Harry Haller]

What motivates me is that I wish to accomplish the goal. That can’t be done as an individual. There is a collective consciousness going on. In fact the whole dream has to wake up so I’d like to stick around and help others do just that. I can’t do that by crashing buses into things.

agreed, its the child in me, so the goal is for the whole dream to wake up? which only happens when you completely merge with God?

And you are concerned about only being a bit character. Well no, because that character is not YOU. Just like in the dream where you literally saw through the characters eyes and thought you were that character so too is the same in this world. Only the physical body of Harry is not really who you are. Remember only one dreamer and and only one consciousness. It’s not that you are a bit character and a nobody who will cease to exist. More like you WJKK one day wake up and realize you never really were Harry... same as the pilot... or the bus crasher LOL

In my own way I guess I have woken up, my goal is slightly different, its nothing. When your goal is nothing, then the dream becomes nothing too, I now do understand your concept, completely, thank you for taking the time to explain,

however,

I still wish to know how seriously you play the game, regardless of the end goal, to me, very little matters, its quite peaceful, given we both know its a game, what matters to you?

 

[Balbir27]

I still wish to know how seriously you play the game, regardless of the end goal, to me, very little matters, its quite peaceful, given we both know its a game, what matters to you?

The Game, Dear Sir, and you accept, is played by both parties (you and Harkiran Kaur). Assuming I am also part of the 2nd party, let us put it into a more inclusive context. You say that "very little matters" to you as far as the Game or the seriousness is concerned. You say that "its quite peaceful" for you. You say "for both it is a game", but what "matters to you?".

It matters to me and I play the game pretty seriously, as I am sure Harkiran Kaur does, from her statements.

I have a goal, in that I seek salvation from this Illusionary World (your dream world). You don't appear to have one. Can you kindly explain, Sir, why you do not have a goal in life?

 

[Harry Haller]

It matters to me and I play the game pretty seriously, as I am sure Harkiran Kaur does, from her statements.

Could you elaborate on that, what constitutes playing the game pretty seriously?

I have a goal, in that I seek salvation from this Illusionary World (your dream world)

Ack, thats the trouble with people today, you just always want something better, what a great world full of pleasures and pursuits, and yet some seek salvation from it, I do not seek salvation from it, I am free to pick and choose exactly what I do, for the hell of it, I have no agenda.

You don't appear to have one. Can you kindly explain, Sir, why you do not have a goal in life?

Simply, I have no goal so I have no journey, this means I just get the best of every day, there is no ending, there are no fireworks, God in his sandals and white beard does not cradle you up in his arms and clasp you to his bossom, well not for me anyway, maybe for you, so I have nothing to look forward to, nothing, in effect to deviate me from today, Nothing is not the same as negative, nothing means simply that, nothing, if this is all a dream, I still have to wake up tomorrow and treat it as if it were not, here's something quite funny, what happens if when you all realise that the dream was there to be lived, was actually the main course, and there is nothing after?

I have this wonderfully enduring image of God saying, "whatdya mean you waited for it to finish so you could meet me, I just gave you something wonderful, and you spent the entire time wanting to meet me"

 

[Sikhilove]

We have, we have, but never really got beyond rhetoric.



I accept nothing personally, and not the concept of karams, not in a multi lifetime scenario anyway, however if that is what you believe, it answers half the question, I would say then that for you, God is in everything, and the purpose of such is education for the next karam, given the consequences of any action is real and intrusive, then surely the presence of God in everything is a moot point as the knowledge of such is of little help to you if it is for education purposes. Would you say then that if you suffered an attack, that it was God punishing you for a previous karam?

Also you mentioned the demon that vanished when you questioned if it were God, why is it that demon vanished and a rapist would not? the question is how can you tell the difference? If the rapist is divine justice for a previous life, then what does the demon that vanishes when you pronounce it God, represent?

thank you

It was a soul in the second energy. The second energy is different to the third energy(world) in which we've been blessed to have been born.

Here we have souls in human bodies, we've been blessed with temples(the body) to sit in and contemplate Him and to glorify Truth by practicing it in action.

The rapist disrespects his temple and the temple of others by his deeds and they never go unpunished. There's a consequence of every action, freewill gives us a choice and it's up to us what we choose.

This world isn't the end. When we die, the road after (in illusion) can be terrifying without the Truth. Rapists don't just exist in the third energy. A rapist in this energy is in fact a demon but it's covered by the human body. There's worse than that afterwards if you have a messed up psychology.

Regarding Karam, previous Janams etc, I go by what the Gurus taught, not by worldly knowledge.

Here, we learn to accept His will/ hukam. We take action, but we keep practicing the psychology of Truth throughout.

We learn the psychology of acceptance and True Sehaj even in the midst of immense pain and suffering as well as in the midst of great joy and celebration.

 

[Harry Haller]

wonderful answers but not the one I am looking for, the crux of this question is simple, given what some of you know about the world, and the way it works, how does it affect your ability to interact with it and what is your goal

It was a soul in the second energy. The second energy is different to the third energy(world) in which we've been blessed to have been born.

although this is rhetoric

Here we have souls in human bodies, we've been blessed with temples(the body) to sit in and contemplate Him and to glorify Truth by practicing it in action.

who is him? God? is God a him? or are you just talking in general, if you are talking in general, perhaps the God that you hold so dear should be spoken about explicitly, do you believe God to be a man? Does God wish to be contemplated? You talk of glorifying truth by practicing it, yet you cannot even be bothered to answer a simple question without grandly referring me to your previous answer, glory to the truth eh..?

The rapist disrespects his temple and the temple of others by his deeds and they never go unpunished. There's a consequence of every action, freewill gives us a choice and it's up to us what we choose.

ah yes, this 'other' world where we reap our punishments and rewards, does this mean that every person that suffers in this world was a bad person in a previous life?

This world isn't the end. When we die, the road after (in illusion) can be terrifying without the Truth. Rapists don't just exist in the third energy. A rapist in this energy is in fact a demon but it's covered by the human body. There's worse than that afterwards if you have a messed up psychology.

which brings me back to my original question that you have, in the glory of truth, once again been unable to answer, you banished a demon by calling it god, now your telling me that a rapist is a demon, were the people that killed Sikhs in 84, demons? why did they not all just laugh and say, 'oh its only god' and watch it vanish? How do you know which demons vanish and which do not?

Regarding Karam, previous Janams etc, I go by what the Gurus taught, not by worldly knowledge.

no you don't, you go by your interpretation of what the Gurus taught, or are you telling us that you have perfected the interpretation of the Gurus and know exactly what is what, is there room for learning in your repertoire, or do you feel you have cracked and nailed it? you certainly talk like you have.

Here, we learn to accept His will/ hukam. We take action, but we keep practicing the psychology of Truth throughout.

Could you define for me what will/hukam means, and no naughty lies about answering it before, just try and be honest with me, if you are able to.

We learn the psychology of acceptance and True Sehaj even in the midst of immense pain and suffering as well as in the midst of great joy and celebration.

to what end?

now , as I said, if you cannot answer, please do not lie about giving an answer previously that you have not, just say, I don't know, its quite simple

thank you

 

[Original]

Dear All - Good morning,

After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.

I think we need to be reminded that the "words" and institutions [Sikh] are supposed to inspire trust in one another. SPN is no exception.

Human interactions are built on trust. We trust others to handover the goods over the counter when a purchase is made. We trust doctors with our lives and Banks with our money. We trust governments to deliver us to the promised land and newspapers to report how they're doing it. Then why is it that when we're engaged in an intellectual debate we begin doubting and discrediting those that we wilfully chose to be engaged with in the first place ? Indeed, they could be wrong, mistaken, deluded whatever, or worse case scenario, advancing an alien agenda defying both reason and observation, but surely not liars ? Nutters maybe, which is a capacity issue and not integrity. Put another way: without trust society would collapse.

Giving others their dignity protects our integrity and honour. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinions, different systems of belief and different ideologies. There is no need to stoop to a level where another's respect and dignity is compromised.

We all have so much to offer and receive from one another. And especially in this contemporary world one must understand other nations ideologies and faith in order to grasp the meaning and purpose of life as seen from perspectives often very different from our own.

In writing this short text no offence or injury to one's belief, value and view was intended. However, if I've failed in achieving the desired objective then I stand reprimanded. All too often I have been at crossroads and unsure whether I have chosen the most suitable. Forgive me if you will.

Warm regards

 

[Harry Haller]

After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.

with respect it is not your place to do so, I am sure SL is more than capable of answering, unless you feel I have made inappropriate statements in which case I would welcome you drawing my attention to it.

Human interactions are built on trust. We trust others to handover the goods over the counter when a purchase is made. We trust doctors with our lives and Banks with our money. We trust governments to deliver us to the promised land and newspapers to report how they're doing it. Then why is it that when we're engaged in an intellectual debate we begin doubting and discrediting those that we wilfully chose to be engaged with in the first place ? Indeed, they could be wrong, mistaken, deluded whatever, or worse case scenario, advancing an alien agenda defying both reason and observation, but surely not liars ? Nutters maybe, which is a capacity issue and not integrity. Put another way: without trust society would collapse.

Nope, I do not possess trust, and luckily, I reject society, I politely enquire, I hope it comes across like that.

Giving others their dignity protects our integrity and honour.

I have neither to protect, I have no place for my own honour, or whatever integrity society deems acceptable at the current moment,

but I do not take away peoples dignity either, I merely ask them to confirm the dignity they have bestowed on themselves.

We all have so much to offer and receive from one another

I do not wish anything from anyone, and I have little to offer, I remain, the small child laughing at the emperor with no clothes, that is my role in my life, I am happy with such.

I However, if I've failed in achieving the desired objective then I stand reprimanded. All too often I have been at crossroads and unsure whether I have chosen the most suitable. Forgive me if you will.

What a strange world we live in where this has to be stated, maybe when I speak I should preface each post with the following, "in writing this short text no offence or injury to one's belief, value and view was intended", is that how PC we have become, no forgiveness needed, you are an active and respected member of this forum, this forum self moderates, and most members are mature and thick skinned enough to take criticism and learn from it, rather than throwing toys out of the pram, I found your post very suitable, I understand what you are trying to say, so noted, and understood, thank you

 

[Balbir27]

Could you elaborate on that, what constitutes playing the game pretty seriously?

Ack, thats the trouble with people today, you just always want something better, what a great world full of pleasures and pursuits, and yet some seek salvation from it, I do not seek salvation from it, I am free to pick and choose exactly what I do, for the hell of it, I have no agenda.

Dear Harry Ji

You posed some questions for me, based on my post at #43 above, and, I see that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since yesterday. I tread therefore with trepidation and I do not know if you will reject my answers and statements, poke holes in them while not giving any reasons yourself, or, address them. But here goes:

You asked “what constitutes playing the game pretty seriously”?

For me, that’s working pretty hard to keep the 5 “thieves” at bay and doing “meditation” daily, for starters.

You rejected my statement that “I seek salvation from…) yet did not give any reason why you did so. I am interested why.

I posed a question for you “why you do not have a goal in mind”?

You evaded the answer directly and made a joke (“here’s something quite funny”) about God "whatdya mean you waited for it to finish so you could meet me, I just gave you something wonderful, and you spent the entire time wanting to meet me".

So my understanding is that you believe that

1) there is a God, but he has put you on this Earth to enjoy everything (“the main course” and “nothing after”) (Can you explain why you believe this is the correct model or have I misunderstood you?)

2) there is nothing after the main course (but how did you end up meeting God afterwards and what was the purpose, if there is "nothing after"?)

3) the image of God is someone wearing a white beard (therefore a man) with sandals (who is cracking jokes as above). (So are you, on the other hand, an atheist who makes fun about God or am I confused?)

I intend no offence and welcome any criticism, but I need to understand what you understand, and need reasons from you for your statements and rejections just like most of us give, so that a reasonable discussion may continue and that we may help each other. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having a particular belief or view, but it should be clear, apparent and supported with reasons. Otherwise, it would be pointless or enigmatic to continue, don’t you think?

 

[Harry Haller]

I tread therefore with trepidation

why? I have never been precious.

do not know if you will reject my answers and statements

I will agree with the ones that I resonate with and reject the rest, no offence intended

For me, that’s working pretty hard to keep the 5 “thieves” at bay and doing “meditation” daily, for starters.

its actually not that hard, most of thieves only appear when you are not alone, the more time you spend alone, the less pull the thieves have over you, the less interaction, the less they intrude. I sleep a lot, which is a form of meditation.

You rejected my statement that “I seek salvation from…) yet did not give any reason why you did so. I am interested why.

my apologies, I find it strange that anyone would seek anything after a while, I have been a seeker too, and have sought many things, found many things, it is not in my opinion a natural state, in that you cannot be yourself when you are seeking, when you want, when you desire,no matter what it is, be it salvation or a new mercedes. I want for nothing, you cannot say the same.

why you do not have a goal in mind

I have had many goals in my life, many many strange goals, to be a big powerful rich man, to sleep with lots of women, to bow down to the wishes of my ego and my pride, and then to marry, to be a father, a husband, a lover, a man, to be a Sikh, yes, many goals, I have seen much, and much has lost its shine, I allowed myself to become embroiled in the world, to be embroiled in maya, and now, my goal is to have no goals, just to live, in whatever fashion I wish.

So my understanding is that you believe that

1) there is a God, but he has put you on this Earth to enjoy everything (“the main course” and “nothing after”) (Can you explain why you believe this is the correct model or have I misunderstood you?)

I believe that there is a God, but it is not a he, and it does not actually do anything, it just detonated the big bang, and then went off and did something else. However, yes, you get a life, and then you die, and that's it.

2) there is nothing after the main course (but how did you end up meeting God afterwards and what was the purpose, if there is "nothing after"?)

Well it is my opinion that you do not meet God after, you just die, the big sleep, there is no purpose, no point, just today. Today, though it is possible to experience God, and the Devil, depending on your outlook and your needs.

3) the image of God is someone wearing a white beard (therefore a man) with sandals (who is cracking jokes as above). (So are you, on the other hand, an atheist who makes fun about God or am I confused?)

Don't be confused, there is nothing funny about an image of God wearing sandals with a big beard, this is not comedy, this is something different, this is satire, you called God a he, can you tell me how you see this God male form of humankind.

I intend no offence and welcome any criticism, but I need to understand what you understand, and need reasons from you for your statements and rejections just like most of us give, so that a reasonable discussion may continue and that we may help each other. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having a particular belief or view, but it should be clear, apparent and supported with reasons. Otherwise, it would be pointless or enigmatic to continue, don’t you think?

For you to understand what I understand completely, you have to have had walked in my footsteps, as I would have to walk in yours to understand you, I have given up trying to understand, I know what I know, I live how I live, we are all free to do so

 

[Balbir27]

Harry Haller Ji, an enigma at first, I feel I can now start understanding you, as a fellow SPNer much better (as opposed to knowing someone).

New why? I have never been precious.

Trepidation = a feeling of fear or anxiety about something that may happen.

In what context have you used the expression “precious”, pray tell me?

I will agree with the ones that I resonate with and reject the rest, no offence intended

Hope you will give your reasons as well.

its actually not that hard, most of thieves only appear when you are not alone, the more time you spend alone, the less pull the thieves have over you, the less interaction, the less they intrude. I sleep a lot, which is a form of meditation.

I’m afraid it’s harder for me as I cannot live like a hermit, having obligations and responsibilities to family and friends, so have to deal with any thieves when I meet them.

For me sleep is “recharging” my brain batteries. Also I think I would be “cheating” if I did not sacrifice some waking time for meditation.

my apologies, I find it strange that anyone would seek anything after a while, I have been a seeker too, and have sought many things, found many things, it is not in my opinion a natural state, in that you cannot be yourself when you are seeking, when you want, when you desire,no matter what it is, be it salvation or a new mercedes. I want for nothing, you cannot say the same.

I believe you are referring to “material” seeking’s where you are correct. I refer to “spiritual” freedom from material stuff and freedom from repeating birth/death cycles. I’ve seen enough here. I had nothing, God gave, took away then gave again. I think it is not a desire per se (as actively going in search of) but a passive patient wait for the Mukti (however it may present itself. So I too want for nothing as you do.

I have had many goals in my life, many many strange goals, to be a big powerful rich man, to sleep with lots of women, to bow down to the wishes of my ego and my pride, and then to marry, to be a father, a husband, a lover, a man, to be a Sikh, yes, many goals, I have seen much, and much has lost its shine, I allowed myself to become embroiled in the world, to be embroiled in maya, and now, my goal is to have no goals, just to live, in whatever fashion I wish.

Just to live in whatever fashion, is still a goal. Like you, I have also had many goals in life, some I achieved and some I did not. I too have seen much and for me too, much has lost its shine. Like you, I too got robbed by different thieves at different times. Some of these thieves are still trying.

Continued..

 

[Balbir27]

I believe that there is a God, but it is not a he, and it does not actually do anything, it just detonated the big bang, and then went off and did something else. However, yes, you get a life, and then you die, and that's it.

My mistake, sorry. I do not believe God has any shape or form, so not a He or She. God is God for want of a better name.
You appear to call it an "It" - The Penguin English Dictionary gives the definition of "It", used as a subject or object, as "that thing, creature, group, the person in question". Is that correct?
So God created the "Big Bang" then went off and did something else. It is beyond human comprehension, at least mine, for that matter, that God did that - imagine the power, the force - I cannot.
So God went off and did something else. What is God doing now and what is that something else that God did?
"Get a life" - yes. "Then you die" - for me, only as far as the physical body is concerned. "and that's it" - it may be your belief but it is not mine simply because the "thing" inside us is immortal.

The post is getting too long now. So I'll end here, for now.

 

[Harry Haller]

Trepidation = a feeling of fear or anxiety about something that may happen.

In what context have you used the expression “precious”, pray tell me?

I do not consider myself precious, I have no belief system myself, so I am not interested in using that to propagate my own thoughts, in that avenue, all options remain open, all opinions must be respected, however, the litmus test is key here, my opinions are merely my opinions, if they are shot down factually, if they fail the litmus test, no one will be more happy about it than me, as I will have learned something.

I’m afraid it’s harder for me as I cannot live like a hermit, having obligations and responsibilities to family and friends, so have to deal with any thieves when I meet them.

yes that is hard, I do not envy you. I only have to walk down the street and listen to conversations to know that keeping ones mind uncluttered with pointless information is indeed a good thing.

For me sleep is “recharging” my brain batteries. Also I think I would be “cheating” if I did not sacrifice some waking time for meditation.

Sacrifice? you make it sound like a chore, or something that must be done, any meditation and deep thinking I do in between sleeping.

I believe you are referring to “material” seeking’s where you are correct. I refer to “spiritual” freedom from material stuff and freedom from repeating birth/death cycles. I’ve seen enough here. I had nothing, God gave, took away then gave again. I think it is not a desire per se (as actively going in search of) but a passive patient wait for the Mukti (however it may present itself. So I too want for nothing as you do.

Nope, seeking is seeking, whether its for education, sex, knowledge, wisdom, a new car, love, whatever, its all seeking, its all trying to fill the void, trying to understand why the big black horrible damp dank hole wishes to swallow us up, some people know about the void, others do not, some fill it, some pretend it isn't there, you seek Mukti, I only wish to maintain what I have, which is pretty much nothing anyway, although within nothing is freedom, freedom is good, freedom allows you to be free.To be truly free in my opinion is to want for nothing and to be content with what you have, in that state, no one owns you, nothing owns you, not even Mukti.

Just to live in whatever fashion, is still a goal. Like you, I have also had many goals in life, some I achieved and some I did not. I too have seen much and for me too, much has lost its shine. Like you, I too got robbed by different thieves at different times. Some of these thieves are still trying.

Nope, as I said, I wish to continue, not to aspire to another level, you could say that wishing to continue is a goal, but it would only be so, if I ceased to continue, so we have not reached that point. Life has not lost its shine at all for me, life becomes an adventure every day, but an adventure free of the requirements of social interaction, no one upsets me, as I don't interact, no one hates me, but the flip side is of course, no one validates me, and no one loves me, so I spend my day working and doing the things that give me pleasure, whatever that may be on whatever day. I have few problems with the thieves, one thing you notice about solitude is a lack of ego, that is not to say I have conquered ego, I have merely put myself in circumstances where there is no need for ego, if I were to fall in love and get married, obviously my ego would return, or get a job, or even attend a family wedding, but as long as I enjoy the freedom of solitude, no ego is not a problem, neither is conceit, same principles, rage, I have never had a problem with, if anything, my biggest problem is not getting angry, attachment, yes, I suffer that, to my parents, and my 20 year old range rover, and my freedom, if I lost those, then I would probably be better off dead, maybe a visit to dignitas, or possibly a new firm I have read about, indignitas, similar procedure, but they dress you as a clown and throw you out a window, so yes, I suffer that one, and of course, lust,

My mistake, sorry. I do not believe God has any shape or form, so not a He or She. God is God for want of a better name.
You appear to call it an "It" - The Penguin English Dictionary gives the definition of "It", used as a subject or object, as "that thing, creature, group, the person in question". Is that correct?
So God created the "Big Bang" then went off and did something else. It is beyond human comprehension, at least mine, for that matter, that God did that - imagine the power, the force - I cannot.
So God went off and did something else. What is God doing now and what is that something else that God did?
"Get a life" - yes. "Then you die" - for me, only as far as the physical body is concerned. "and that's it" - it may be your belief but it is not mine simply because the "thing" inside us is immortal.

Ah well you see the litmus test confirms my view, because if God did not go off and do something else, then God did not do a fantastic job given the pain and suffering in the world, no God I could believe in could watch this pain, even use it as a means of teaching, or punishing, and call themselves a God, No God I could believe in could hand out miracles to a certain few for the most mundane of requests (just listen to any Ardass on a sunday) and ignore this suffering, the litmus tests means that God either is unable to do anything, or has a policy of nil intervention for everyone, so I am nothing special, God does not love me, if he did, then I would be confused, why love me, and not the woman being raped in a war zone, or the man being killed, or the many number of people that would suffer today, I do not wish a God to love me and ignore this, that is no God of mine, it sounds more like a Devil. But then, when you look at the attitude to God in the whole, the whole God concept has actually turned him/it into a Devil, this devil is bargained with, promises are made, gifts exchanged, oaths are sworn, all for either material or mental gain, what person, facing death, does not instantly start making deals with this Devil, The Devil corrupts and is corruptible, God does neither, God says, do your own thing, deal with the consequences, and deal with anything that happens in between, here, have a brain, that will help, and then he's off, zoom, whoosh, bang,

The thing inside us dies with us, but then who can really say, who knows, we could argue till the cows come home, even the litmus test is silent on that one.

 

[Sikhilove]

Dear All - Good morning,

After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.

I think we need to be reminded that the "words" and institutions [Sikh] are supposed to inspire trust in one another. SPN is no exception.

Human interactions are built on trust. We trust others to handover the goods over the counter when a purchase is made. We trust doctors with our lives and Banks with our money. We trust governments to deliver us to the promised land and newspapers to report how they're doing it. Then why is it that when we're engaged in an intellectual debate we begin doubting and discrediting those that we wilfully chose to be engaged with in the first place ? Indeed, they could be wrong, mistaken, deluded whatever, or worse case scenario, advancing an alien agenda defying both reason and observation, but surely not liars ? Nutters maybe, which is a capacity issue and not integrity. Put another way: without trust society would collapse.

Giving others their dignity protects our integrity and honour. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinions, different systems of belief and different ideologies. There is no need to stoop to a level where another's respect and dignity is compromised.

We all have so much to offer and receive from one another. And especially in this contemporary world one must understand other nations ideologies and faith in order to grasp the meaning and purpose of life as seen from perspectives often very different from our own.

In writing this short text no offence or injury to one's belief, value and view was intended. However, if I've failed in achieving the desired objective then I stand reprimanded. All too often I have been at crossroads and unsure whether I have chosen the most suitable. Forgive me if you will.

Warm regards

Thankyou for the lovely post ji.

I read a few lines here and there of the post by Harry Ji and chose to stop and not read any further. I choose not to engage in or entertain such disrespect and negativity.

We all have the freedom of choice and to Argue with a Fool Makes Two.

You are a Civilized human being Original Ji and so your inspiring post comes as no surprise

 

[Harry Haller]

Thankyou for the lovely post ji.

I read a few lines here and there of the post by Harry Ji and chose to stop and not read any further. I choose not to engage in or entertain such disrespect and negativity.

We all have the freedom of choice and to Argue with a Fool Makes Two.

You are a Civilized human being Original Ji and so your inspiring post comes as no surprise

no problem at all, but in calling me a fool, are you not calling God a fool? You can see God in a demon but not in me? You say we all have the freedom of choice, but then you say that it is all his command and hukam, so which is it?

Perhaps I could ask you some easier questions if you wish, say the colour of our hair, or your favourite pop group? No problem at all, I will try my best not to burden you with questions you are unable or unwilling to answer, you carry on preaching, I guess its safe to preach and know all when you do not, or cannot justify it.

And that deal Balbirji, is a pretty good idea of what being precious means, thank you SL for taking the time to enlighten us all.

 

[Harry Haller]

Dear All - Good morning,

After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.

I think we need to be reminded that the "words" and institutions [Sikh] are supposed to inspire trust in one another. SPN is no exception.

Human interactions are built on trust. We trust others to handover the goods over the counter when a purchase is made. We trust doctors with our lives and Banks with our money. We trust governments to deliver us to the promised land and newspapers to report how they're doing it. Then why is it that when we're engaged in an intellectual debate we begin doubting and discrediting those that we wilfully chose to be engaged with in the first place ? Indeed, they could be wrong, mistaken, deluded whatever, or worse case scenario, advancing an alien agenda defying both reason and observation, but surely not liars ? Nutters maybe, which is a capacity issue and not integrity. Put another way: without trust society would collapse.

Giving others their dignity protects our integrity and honour. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinions, different systems of belief and different ideologies. There is no need to stoop to a level where another's respect and dignity is compromised.

We all have so much to offer and receive from one another. And especially in this contemporary world one must understand other nations ideologies and faith in order to grasp the meaning and purpose of life as seen from perspectives often very different from our own.

In writing this short text no offence or injury to one's belief, value and view was intended. However, if I've failed in achieving the desired objective then I stand reprimanded. All too often I have been at crossroads and unsure whether I have chosen the most suitable. Forgive me if you will.

Warm regards

I stand corrected, SL is not able to answer, perhaps if anyone could else could answer my questions, that would be indeed, great!

 

[Balbir27]

Harry Ji

I stand corrected, SL is not able to answer, perhaps if anyone could else could answer my questions, that would be indeed, great!

Perhaps its because this discussion, now, is off topic. I'm discontinuing myself as well.

Also it is only about 14 minutes (litmus test?) between your last 2 posts before you declared yourself the "winner".

It would be a pleasure to meet again in the right topic area, by the Grace of God.

Many times, I have got tired and weary and confused simply because the OP thread led to something totally different and not what I was really looking for. Not good for newcomers like me. Also denotes chaos although I understand "leeway".

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Perhaps we could start a thread on the purpose of life according to Gurbani??

Harry Ji


Perhaps its because this discussion, now, is off topic. I'm discontinuing myself as well.

Also it is only about 14 minutes (litmus test?) between your last 2 posts before you declared yourself the "winner".

It would be a pleasure to meet again in the right topic area, by the Grace of God.

Many times, I have got tired and weary and confused simply because the OP thread led to something totally different and not what I was really looking for. Not good for newcomers like me. Also denotes chaos although I understand "leeway".

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

I agree, your absolutely correct, firstly the OP back in 2011, must be very upset his thread has been hijacked, secondly, of course there is no relevance between what a holy man is in Sikhism, and what is holy in Sikhism, no relevance at all, clearly rhetoric and self posturing is more important than providing answers that make sense in the real world, rather than in the mind, I really thought I would miss interaction, and in a sense, I do, but this, and what passes for interaction period, seems merely listen to my agenda, and my wise words, but do not ask me to explain it, well done everyone!

Brilliant!

 

[Original]

Good morning Everyone

Perhaps we could start a thread on the purpose of life according to Gurbani??

Harkiran Ji, purpose as per Gurbani is clearly stated - look here [bold]: ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਦੁਪਦੇ ॥ ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥ ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੨੯॥ SGGSJ,378 II

Translation [bold]: human birth is to meet God.

Explanation

In understanding Gurbani it must be noted that this is the "word" [shabd] of God. But before exploring Gurbani and Banikars [authors of SGGSJ] active engagement with society and pre-Sikh religions, there are important considerations to be had, that is, Banikars and purpose [mission] - how do they interact ? from where does "inspiration" come ? what is its relation to the human factor ? from where are the poetry and the eloquence ? If we say it is 'of God', in what sense is it also 'of Banikars' ? Is the divine believed to be in the abeyance of human powers, or present, maximising human powers ?

Sikh thought is to the former, in that, the Banikars had no formal education to enable such graphic accounts of the metaphysical and the transcendent worlds . Hence the reason their utterance and compositions must be wholly "given" from beyond.

The compositions are not conscious deliberations, brooding on meanings and finding its own words, but rather, mouthpieces without mental forethought to sermonise the eternal message. The message is not of its own making and is authentic, in that, it is given in this way - revealed. Thus the uneducated Banikar becomes the fount of truth. By these tokens it is manifest that the person speaks from God.

The theoretical thought of Guru Nanak in constituting general principles [nam jap, vand shak and kirat kar] underpinning Sikhism is to that end - God you will meet when you walk on this path.

Much obliged