Atheism Did God Create An Imperfect World?

[Tejwant Singh]

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

I think veechar on this topic is taking some personal level and I am no match to S.Tejwant Singh, so I must quit.

By the above it seems that you got offended from my posts which I do apologise for because that is not the intention and it would not be veechar but a tug of war of egos, which I am sure, neither yourself nor me have the intention,desire or goal for.

We have known each other for a long time now. For me, disagreements and difference of opinions on the same subject are part and parcel of the learning process called Sikhi as long as they do not contradict Gurmat ideals given to us in SGGS, our only Guru.

I would rather call this an active interaction than anything personal because since the time I have known you, I have learnt a lot from you and I admire your zeal,commitment, dedication and devotion to Sikhi.

I am not able to find any sabd in gurbani which tells me that it is disrespect to our guru or gurbani to use one complete stanza especially when there is no rahao in that complete sabd.

I am sorry if I was not able to make my point more clearly and in a nitid fashion. What I mean by one liners is that Guru Sahib in each Shabad how short or long it may be, tries to convey the message as a whole and the message can be only understood if we study the whole Shabad or Stanzas in case of Jap.

Allow me to put it another way. If some one wrote you a letter and you only read " Dear Mohinder Singh ji" and not the context or the contents of the letter, would that do justice to the letter?

This is the reason I mentioned about one liners which do not do justice to Gurbani because we know the whole idea presented by our Gurus is in the whole Shabad and Stanza.

Let's take for example the one you have mentioned from Jap that you wanted me to interpret:

'Nanak bhagtan sada veegas.
sunieh dukh paap ka nash'

These are last two lines in a 6 line Stanza and four stanzas complete the message/theme that Guru Sahib is trying to convey. The theme of these 4 Stanzas is how to be good listeners and they give us the tools for becoming good listeners.

These two lines are mentioned in all 4 Stanzas but the previous four lines of each Stanza give us different messages for us to grasp and understand how to practice the tools to become a great listener.

So, as mentioned before, it does injustice to Gurbani and the message the Guru Sahib is trying to show us if we dissect just two last lines because the theme is not in these two lines. They have the conclusion of what has been said by Guru Sahib in the first four lines of each Stanza. In this case, they show us 4 times what fruits we can savour if we sow the seeds of becoming good listeners.

So, if we ignore the seeds, then we can not talk about what kind of fruits we can reap.

I have a suggestion for the Administrators. We can start a separate thread where we can discuss Japji Stanza by Stanza in which all can pitch in with their input what they understand by that.

The interesting part is that each Stanza of Jap has a different theme.

And Mohinder Singh ji, with your help we can all learn together.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Narayanjot Kaur ji,

Guru Fateh.

I can read all the fonts you have in your post but I still can not read Mohinder Singh ji's font. I have all possible Punjabi fonts on my lap top. It seems that perhaps some are missing.

Regards

Tejwant

Thanks Tejwant ji

This font problem seems to have become more of an issue since our last forum downtime and rebuild. Now I am really puzzled. So I will give it some thought and try to figure it out. If both of you have AmolLipi font installed, then this problem should not be there. "Scratching my head."

 

[Tejwant Singh]

"Scratching my head."

I would recommend Head & Shoulders.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

What do we mean by "perfect" and "imperfect"?

 

[Astroboy]

Mai Ji, when a woman falls in love with a man, she only sees him as a perfect match and overlooks all the imperfections. Why?

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Mai Ji, when a woman falls in love with a man, she only sees him as a perfect match and overlooks all the imperfections. Why?

Namjap ji,

"Falling in love" is a sort of insanity; if you look for logic, you'll be disappointed.

BTW, in my experience, the same holds for men. :happysingh:

 

[japjisahib04]

I have a suggestion for the Administrators. We can start a separate thread where we can discuss Japji Stanza by Stanza in which all can pitch in with their input what they understand by that.

The interesting part is that each Stanza of Jap has a different theme.

And Mohinder Singh ji, with your help we can all learn together.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Ji

Interpreting Japji is not a joke. There are hundreds of interpretation and I have gone through some of it and was dispointed that most of them did not dive deep and treasure remained undiscovered in the pre-occupation with the literal interpretaion and thus had churned only the shell. The precious jewels and pearls are lost in their ego and exposure of command over language and difficult word only. It is not the job of those who seek to interpret with their acamedic university knowledge but of those who can grasp by listening, live in baani engrossed with love and can become baani and with that birha then sing, 'baani guru guru hai baani vich baani amrit sarai' and then you will see that by singing baani itself will lead the path to dive deeper and speak the meaning. I am however ready for this spiritual journey. I may tell you during this spiritual journey, we might encounter Guru Nanak Sahib in his partakh roop.

Best regards

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Interpreting Japji is not a joke.

I agree with you. It would be a bit arrogant on our part if we separated Jap from all the other Gurbani in 1429 pages of SGGS, our only Guru. If Gurbani were easy to interpret then we as Sikhs would not have had the Gurmat train to ride on. Understanding Gurbani is a life long endeavour. That is why Sikhi is a wonderful journey where our inner landscape changes when we look within through the windows of Gurbani during this journey of ours.

It is not the job of those who seek to interpret with their acamedic university knowledge but of those who can grasp by listening, live in baani engrossed with love and can become baani and with that birha then sing, 'baani guru guru hai baani vich baani amrit sarai' and then you will see that by singing baani itself will lead the path to dive deeper and speak the meaning.

Pardon my ignorance but I did not quite get this.

Can you explain the above in lay man's terms?

What do you mean by "It is not the job of those who seek to interpret with their acamedic university knowledge"?

Do you mean academic knowledge is Sikhi's worst enemy rather than best friend?

If that were true then our Gurus would not use words like Mann Rakhiyei bhao, Dyan, Vichaar and many other words.

How can one understand this beautiful message by just by singing "'baani guru guru hai baani vich baani amrit sarai' and then you will see that by singing baani itself will lead the path to dive deeper and speak the meaning"?

Do you mean only by listening to and singing Gurbani one can be engrossed in love and is suffice, but not by understanding it and putting it into our second nature so we live it 24/7 or Are reading, listening and singing just the baby steps for one to walk towards the latter?

I am however ready for this spiritual journey.

I am glad you are, so am I and I am sure the same can be said about many other readers of this forum.

I may tell you during this spiritual journey, we might encounter Guru Nanak Sahib in his partakh roop.

Pardon my ignorance once again, but what do you really mean by what is written in bold?

Can you elaborate that for me?

And when shall we begin?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Tejwant Ji,
Gurbani is not letter to be interpreted by scholar as compared it by you earlier, it is not an ordinary song that a poet can understand it, it is not a history that historian can interpret. It is not science that a scienstist can interpret in laboratory. It is a brahm gian so only brahm giani can understand its value and discover the real treasure lying within . logu jwnY iehu gIqu hY iehu qau bRhm bIcwr ] People believe that this is just a song and they interpret accordingly, but it is a meditation on God thus only those who are imbued with His love can understand the mystic state of bliss.(SGGS 335.10). Baani birlai beechari. As gurbani tells, ‘brahm giani ki gat brahmgiani janeh’ a mystic stage. So once you start this journey with me with total commitment and surrender, very soon you will realize what I may saying.
Best regards

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Ji,
Gurbani is not letter to be interpreted by scholar as compared it by you earlier, it is not an ordinary song that a poet can understand it, it is not a history that historian can interpret. It is not science that a scienstist can interpret in laboratory. It is a brahm gian so only brahm giani can understand its value and discover the real treasure lying within . logu jwnY iehu gIqu hY iehu qau bRhm bIcwr ] People believe that this is just a song and they interpret accordingly, but it is a meditation on God thus only those who are imbued with His love can understand the mystic state of bliss.(SGGS 335.10). Baani birlai beechari. As gurbani tells, ‘brahm giani ki gat brahmgiani janeh’ a mystic stage. So once you start this journey with me with total commitment and surrender, very soon you will realize what I may saying.
Best regards

Mohinder ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for prejudging me. Is this the way you call your surrender to Ik Ong Kaar?

Does you surrender to Ik Ong Kaar teach you how to judge others and doubt their quest to seek the ONE?

How interesting!!!


Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

All forum members must return to the topic. I am myself guilty of contributing to a digression on fonts. Much appreciated.

 

[arshi]

Tejwant Ji

Interpreting Japji is not a joke. There are hundreds of interpretation and I have gone through some of it and was dispointed that most of them did not dive deep and treasure remained undiscovered in the pre-occupation with the literal interpretaion and thus had churned only the shell. The precious jewels and pearls are lost in their ego and exposure of command over language and difficult word only. It is not the job of those who seek to interpret with their acamedic university knowledge but of those who can grasp by listening, live in baani engrossed with love and can become baani and with that birha then sing, 'baani guru guru hai baani vich baani amrit sarai' and then you will see that by singing baani itself will lead the path to dive deeper and speak the meaning. I am however ready for this spiritual journey. I may tell you during this spiritual journey, we might encounter Guru Nanak Sahib in his partakh roop.

Best regards

Mohinder Singh ji

Gurfateh

I normally get a few hours at the weekend to catch with the events on SPN. Weekdays disappear in work and travel.

I have very much enjoyed your dialogue with our mutual dear friend Tejwant Singh ji who has the art of bringing the best out of contributors on this forum by asking some excellent and persistent questions. We must all endeavour to seek the answers together as you and Tejwant ji rightly observe and that interpreting Japji is certainly no easy task. I have learnt a lot from this thread and must thank all who have made this such a rewarding experience.

I know that you have listened to Maskeen ji’s interpretation of Japji Sahib (originally recorded as 20 cassettes). I too listened to these many years ago several times and since we have now progressed to CD players I would need to buy these in the CD format.

I recently watched Maskeen ji’s video on the Sikh Channel and he backed what you say. He said once he refused his publishers to print his translation of 16 Pauris as he was not entirely satisfied with the translation –this coming from a great scholar put my own meagre knowledge in perspective.Then he went on to say that he had seen and heard many versions of translations and each was good on its own merits and an individual derives the meaning as per his or her understanding and level of spiritual awareness – wise, humble and tolerant words of a true scholar. I have recently been trying to translate Japji in my own words and needless to say that the progress is extremely slow but I enjoy every minute of it.

Kind regards and keep enlightening us.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[spnadmin]

To repeat my earlier request. Please stay on topic. "arshi" ji would you be able to elaborate somewhat on the connection between Japji Sahib and an imperfect world for us. Thank you.

 

[japjisahib04]

Tejwant Singh Ji
Whatever I am writing it is general and no prejudging anyone please. My apologies.
Thanks arshi Ji
The beautiful message by singing, 'baani guru guru hai baani vich baani amrit sarai' can be understood by referring to pankti ‘gian khand mai gian prachanad thithai naad binod kod anand’ of 36 stanza where the interpretation of gurbani and different subjects mentioned therein are enlightened by itself, then it says by full commitment and surrender, ‘gurbani kahai sevak jan maney partakh guru nistarai’ we might encounter Guru Nanak Sahib in his partakh roop and enter into an arena where naad binod kod anand’ where you might find sanghat of saadh and start hearing whistles in your ears indicating falling in true love. I am writing this from our experience. If our guru can experience this bliss why cann’t we.
Best regards

 

[arshi]

Narayanjot Kaur ji

Gurfateh

Our posts almost crossed each other.

Kaleka ji’s observation is the reaction of a compassionate heart. For this, my respect for him knows no bounds. To us, mere mortals, the sight of pain, misery, tragedy and sickness is unbearable but enlightened men and women know how to react to His Hukam. Perfection and imperfection, perhaps, lies in the eyes of the beholder. An individual born with a silver spoon in his mouth and one born in the gutter may have totally opposing views on life, its trials and tribulations, pain and misery. A spiritually enlightened Gursikh like Bhai Bhikhari ji may see things entirely differently (see Bhai Sahib ji’s account in the Sakhi Section).

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/26621-bhai-bhikhari-ji.html

As requested, time permitting, I intend to continue with references from Gurbani.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[BhagatSingh]

I am back Narayanjot Kaur ji! If I can still reply to this...

Bhagat Singh ji

Forgive me however I do not see anything particularly "intelligent" in Shaheed Bhagat Singh's argument. Bottom line: His plea may be a good argument against believing in God. It is not a good argument against the existence of God. Belief and proof of existence are not the same thing.

well, it depends on how you define Intelligence. He has successfully applied the "Argument from Evil" to Hindu ideas and explanations, etc and that sort of thing I call intelligence.
Yes, argument from evil is not "God does not exist".

In order for this argument to work God has to be defined very narrowly

I don't think so. The only required traits for the argument are omnipotence and benevolence, and those are pretty standard for today's God(s).
of course, no one would give an argument from evil against Zeus or Hades.

Omnipotence - the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power
Benevolence -

• disposition to do good
• an inclination to do kind or charitable acts
• an act intending or showing kindness and good will

If Shaheed's definition only applies to Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, are you saying that the (Sikh) God is neither omnipotent nor benevolent?

Do permit me to point out that both Taranjeet ji and Mohinder ji have given at least 2 of the arguments that are used to refute the Argument from Evil. Spot on!

I couldn't find them. Just quote what they said.

Wait I do recall Taranjeet Singh ji saying something about a gameplan. Is that what you are talkking about?

 

[spnadmin]

I am back Narayanjot Kaur ji! If I can still reply to this...



If Shaheed's definition only applies to Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, are you saying that the (Sikh) God is neither omnipotent nor benevolent?

It is clear shaheed disputed the view of Hidus, Muslims, and Christians. H We cannot tell from the paragraph what in fact was Shaheed's view of God. His view, not mine, is under review.

I couldn't find them. Just quote what they said.

Wait I do recall Taranjeet Singh ji saying something about a gameplan. Is that what you are talkking about?

LOL don't give me orders. You are free to read back in the thread and find it for yourself.