Do I Have A Duty To Correct The Sins Of My Fathers?

Harry Haller · Oct 20, 2011

Gurfatehji

If our lives stop at death, and what we know is passed on to the next generation via DNA, cremation, burial, then we are a combination of cells from our fathers, our fathers fathers (and mothers, and mothers mothers), from the air we breathe, the food we eat, our interaction with creation, the reflexes that our ancestors instilled in us, if indeed the blood of hookers and thieves flows in us as well as saints and warriors, could that explain why the eventual chemical soup that we end up as is as unique as our fingerprints.

Is it up to each of us to right wrongs, to correct personality deficiencies, to exorcise the DNA of the hookers and murderers, to thin them out, so that the balance exists in the favour of the saints and the warriors, is it indeed our RESPONSIBILITY to bow down before Guru and embrace the teachings not only for ourselves, but so that we can contribute something to Creation when we are dead, almost a solemn duty, if you like, not just for our own souls, but to help purify Creation, to make it better, to rid it of the stench of meism

Spades · Oct 20, 2011

harry haller said:
Gurfatehji

If our lives stop at death, and what we know is passed on to the next generation via DNA, cremation, burial, then we are a combination of cells from our fathers, our fathers fathers (and mothers, and mothers mothers), from the air we breathe, the food we eat, our interaction with creation, the reflexes that our ancestors instilled in us, if indeed the blood of hookers and thieves flows in us as well as saints and warriors, could that explain why the eventual chemical soup that we end up as is as unique as our fingerprints.

Is it up to each of us to right wrongs, to correct personality deficiencies, to exorcise the DNA of the hookers and murderers, to thin them out, so that the balance exists in the favour of the saints and the warriors, is it indeed our RESPONSIBILITY to bow down before Guru and embrace the teachings not only for ourselves, but so that we can contribute something to Creation when we are dead, almost a solemn duty, if you like, not just for our own souls, but to help purify Creation, to make it better, to rid it of the stench of meism

You can't "cleanse" the DNA of our ancestors. It doesn't exactly work that way. 1/200th of the human population has a common ancestor in Genghis Khan (man had many wives) and although most of those people don't behave like him they can never "cleanse" their genetic information in such a fashion. Your DNA can't be altered voluntarily.

Also obeying the tenets of Sikhism will not guarantee that your offspring will be religious. I know many religious Sikh parents who have offspring that are very much into partying, sex, drugs, etc 100x more than I am. Yes you can make them go to Gurdwara, learn gatka, sit them in a Punjabi school, and make them take amrit when they are young. However once they go out into the world you will have no control over their actions and they may not adhere to what you have taught them while growing up.

Ambarsaria · Oct 20, 2011

harry haller said:
Gurfatehji

If our lives stop at death, and what we know is passed on to the next generation via DNA, cremation, burial, then we are a combination of cells from our fathers, our fathers fathers (and mothers, and mothers mothers), from the air we breathe, the food we eat, our interaction with creation, the reflexes that our ancestors instilled in us, if indeed the blood of hookers and thieves flows in us as well as saints and warriors, could that explain why the eventual chemical soup that we end up as is as unique as our fingerprints.

Is it up to each of us to right wrongs, to correct personality deficiencies, to exorcise the DNA of the hookers and murderers, to thin them out, so that the balance exists in the favour of the saints and the warriors, is it indeed our RESPONSIBILITY to bow down before Guru and embrace the teachings not only for ourselves, but so that we can contribute something to Creation when we are dead, almost a solemn duty, if you like, not just for our own souls, but to help purify Creation, to make it better, to rid it of the stench of meism

Harry Haller ji don't you think it belongs in the following section at spn,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/leisure/

Sat Sri Akal.

Tejwant Singh · Oct 20, 2011

Spades said:
Also obeying the tenets of Sikhism will not guarantee that your offspring will be religious. I know many religious Sikh parents who have offspring that are very much into partying, sex, drugs, etc 100x more than I am. Yes you can make them go to Gurdwara, learn gatka, sit them in a Punjabi school, and make them take amrit when they are young. However once they go out into the world you will have no control over their actions and they may not adhere to what you have taught them while growing up.

Spades ji,

Guru Fateh.

I always loved your sharpness and bluntness when you used to visit the forum before. Your disdainful rebellion against the religion your parents belong to always made a person like me to think. But it is sad to notice that whatever path you have chosen has not taken this inner bitterness out of you for some reason. Isn't the goal in our lives, to become a bit better as humans than we were yesterday no matter what hue, creed, faith or no faith we belong to?

It is interesting to notice, to say the least that you nit-pick things in Sikhi without showing any deeper knowledge about it.[/FONT]

Being a devil’s advocate is a great trait, but it cannot be hollow. It should have a backbone and a spine.

One thing you should have known a long time a ago that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one, no matter what his/her parents religion/s are. This is the basic rule of Sikhi that you have failed to grasp.

Sikhi is not a religion. You may not know this because you are not a Sikh. It is a pragmatic way of life based on objective reality, unlike the religions which are based on subjective truths, called dogmas, like hell and heaven.

I am sure you know a Sikh only means a student, a learner, a seeker and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru gives us the tools how to become the best student possible. So, in other words, the world is full of Sikhs, quite unknowingly. One can be a skin head and be a Sikh or in my opinion an Atheist can be a Sikh as well because Atheists are against the deity god not the Creative Energy what Ik Ong Kaar IS. I have many Atheist friends who love to read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and find its message very much like their own thought process.

You write:

Also obeying the tenets of Sikhism will not guarantee that your offspring will be religious.

By Sikhi Tenets, I hope you mean:

1, Naam Japnah- Always be aware of the connection with the One Source.
[/FONT]
2. Kirat Karni- Work in an honest and truthful manner whether you are a student at school or working in any profession.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]3. Share with others. Give a helping hand to all those who are in need.

I only know these 3 tenets of Sikhi and they do not make any one religious but there is a guarantee that if one practices these 3 in a diligent manner, one ought to become a better person. Don’t you think so?

I know many religious Sikh parents who have offspring that are very much into partying, sex, drugs, etc 100x more than I am.

That is sadly true but it has nothing to do with Sikhi or its tenets. Some Sikhs take Sikhi as the casino builders in Las Vegas where they have built Paris, Venice etc etc of papier mache.

Sikhi is not about external imposition but an internal manifestation and instilling the latter is the duty of the parents. If they are not able to do it, then we cannot blame the off springs nor Sikhi which you tend to.
[/FONT]
There are people of all different back grounds and religions whose off springs do the same. You should Google spring break phenomena of the high schoolers and the college students in the US if you do not know about this already and check it out. You will be surprised. But let’s not link bad parenting to Sikhi. It shows our own parochial thinking rather than a deeper thought process.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Yes you can make them go to Gurdwara, learn gatka, sit them in a Punjabi school, and make them take amrit when they are young.

[/FONT]

[/FONT]If Gurdwara has something interesting to offer, then they will be eager to go. Learning to play musical instruments is a fantastic thing. In many cultures like Brazil, it is common to see everyone playing a bunch of musical instruments. My son who is 16 has been playing trumpet in his schools’ bands since the age of 7 and also plays harmonium and tabla and enjoys them all.[/FONT]

What is wrong with learning Gatka, Capoeira, Kung fu etc. etc.?[/FONT]

What is wrong with learning Punjabi or any other foreign language?[/FONT]

[/FONT]I do not know how many languages do you speak but in the fear of tooting my own horn, I must admit that, I fluently speak 6 which include 2 Latin languages and can read 8.[/FONT]

[/FONT]However, I do agree with you about Amrit- Khandei de Pahul. This decision should be of the person alone when he/she is ready. Forcing it on the kids is not a Sikhi trait but a dogmatic imposition.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

However once they go out into the world you will have no control over their actions and they may not adhere to what you have taught them while growing up.

[/FONT]
I have no idea what kind of environment you were brought up in or the people you know were. I think you mean what they have learnt through positive motivation and healthy environment; not,"what you have taught them".

All I know is that people I know from my own family which include my nephews and nieces and their friends who are all very successful in their professions, are teetotalers, sing Keertan, play several musical instruments, organise camps, play in local basketball tournaments, do Seva at the soup kitchens and indulge in many other activities.

They even went to Haiti during the earthquake and I do not know whether you know about it or not that Sikh charities were the first to offer hot meals in Haiti. All other charities including the Red Cross just offered dry food military packages. Open Langar was in full swing in Haiti.

Most of the boys have open beards. Many of them are married. Some have taken Amrit and they all enjoy life as good citizens of the The US and The UK.[/FONT]

[/FONT]So, I do not understand your criticism laced with grudge and haven't the faintest what it is based on.[/FONT]

[/FONT]Tejwant Singh[/FONT]

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Spades · Oct 20, 2011

Tejwant Singh said:
I always loved your sharpness and bluntness when you used to visit the forum before. Your disdainful rebellion against the religion your parents belong to always made a person like me to think. But it is sad to notice that whatever path you have chosen has not taken this inner bitterness out of you for some reason.

Got to love armchair psychology.

Isn't the goal in our lives, is to become a bit better as humans than we were yesterday no matter what hue, creed, faith or no faith we belong to?

I never met every person on the planet and asked them what their ambitions are so I can't say that for sure.

However that does seem to be general creed that has helped humanity advance.

It is interesting to notice, to say the least that you nit-pick things in Sikhi without showing any deeper knowledge about it.

[/FONT]

This thread isn't a Sikhism thread but rather a thread about whether or not the beliefs & actions of a parent necessarily guarantees that future generations will have to perform and adhere to the beliefs and actions of the parent.

Ambarsaria had the right idea when he said that the topic at hand should be moved to leisure.

One thing you should have known a long time a ago that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one, no matter what his/her parents religion/s are. This is the basic rule of Sikhi that you have failed to grasp.

I think you are the one failing to grasp the topic of discussion or what exactly I wrote.

Sikhi is not about external imposition but an internal manifestation and instilling the latter is the duty of the parents. If they are not able to do it, then we cannot blame the off springs nor Sikhi which you tend to.

When have I blamed Sikhi for offspring not adhering to the practices of their parents?

[/FONT]
There are people of all different back grounds and religions whose off springs do the same. You should Google spring break phenomena of the high schoolers and the college students in the US if you do not know about this already and check it out. You will be surprised. But let’s not link bad parenting to Sikhi. It shows our own parochial thinking rather than a deeper thought process.[/FONT]

Trust me I know about Spring Break and yes that is extremely obvious.

When did I say that Sikhi makes for bad parenting? All I said that is that if a parent's a Sikh that it is not necessarily guaranteed that the offspring will be a Sikh.

If Gurdwara has something interesting to offer, then they will be eager to go. Learning to play musical instruments is a fantastic thing. Many cultures like Brazil, it is common to see everyone playing a bunch of musical instruments. My son who is 16 has been playing trumpet in his schools’ bands since the age of 7 and also plays harmonium and tabla and enjoys them all.

What is wrong with learning Gatka, Capoeira, Kung fu etc. etc.?

What is wrong with learning Punjabi or any other foreign language?

I do not know how many languages do you speak but in the fear of tooting my own horn, I must admit that, I fluently speak 6 which include 2 Latin languages and can read 8.

What? This has to be the first time in my history of using the internet where I felt compelled to use a motivator to make my point.

Where in my post did I say learning any sort of skill is bad?

All I know is that people I know from my own family which include my nephews and nieces and their friends who are all very successful in their professions, are teetotalers, sing Keertan, play several musical instruments, organise camps, play in local basketball tournaments, do Seva at the soup kitchens and indulge in many other activities.

They even went to Haiti during the earthquake and I do not know whether you know about it or not that Sikh charities were the first to offer hot meals in Haiti. All other charities including the Red Cross just offered dry food military packages. Open Langar was in full swing in Haiti.

Most of the boys have open beards. Many of them are married. Some have taken Amrit and they all enjoy life as good citizens of the The US and The UK.

Congrats to them, but when did I ever say that Sikhism leads to people being bums with zero accomplishments in their lives.

So, I do not understand your criticism laced with grudge and haven't the faintest what it is based on.

Maybe if you actually read what I was saying instead of interjecting this nonsense about me equating Sikhi with bad parenting.

In fact I've never criticized Sikhism in that entire last post.

Ambarsaria · Oct 21, 2011

spades ji thanks for your post.

Spades said:
You can't "cleanse" the DNA of our ancestors. It doesn't exactly work that way. 1/200th of the human population has a common ancestor in Genghis Khan (man had many wives) and although most of those people don't behave like him they can never "cleanse" their genetic information in such a fashion. Your DNA can't be altered voluntarily.

From little knowledge I have of this area that is pretty correct. The Genghis Khan stuff I did not know, if it is true. Is their a reference just for curiosity not deep study?

Also obeying the tenets of Sikhism will not guarantee that your offspring will be religious.

I think this is pretty generic of most children not just Sikh children. They like to discover puddles, sharp objects, bitter fruits and fire, etc., before they recognize it or believe in such for rest of their lives. No matter of training teaches better than first hand experience and it seems to be in the nature of our species.

Many a times children grow up to be the reflections of their parent(s) inner selves. If there is dis-parity between inner and outer in parents then it gets picked up pretty fast by the kids in lack of respect and not following in their guidance in a sustainable way.

I love the following song if you understand Punjabi (it is little sexist ... talks about sons looking after parents .. but very nice),

SADDEST SONG EVER punjabi....MAA pe kaun sambhalu ,best punjabi sad song by shankar sahney - YouTube

I know many religious Sikh parents who have offspring that are very much into partying, sex, drugs, etc 100x more than I am. Yes you can make them go to Gurdwara, learn gatka, sit them in a Punjabi school, and make them take amrit when they are young. However once they go out into the world you will have no control over their actions and they may not adhere to what you have taught them while growing up.

Parenting is giving your children the best you know how. Many times it works, but if you do nothing you have a life time of regrets. Further this is not really about Sikhism and is about the trials and tribulations of parenting.

Sat Sri Akal.

Harry Haller · Oct 21, 2011

Ambarsaria said:
Harry Haller ji don't you think it belongs in the following section at spn,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/leisure/

Sat Sri Akal.

I apologise, I have a terrible habit of starting new threads and letting adminji decide the best place for them, I suppose the choice of home is also an art I need to embrace:agoodpoint:

However, we would argue that embracing the content of the SGGS will eventually produce better role models for young people to emulate, I do not find the contents of the SGGS religious, I find them on a par with the great philosophers, I find it a minefield of information, my wife absolutely despises the notion of a 'god', although accepts the concept of an energy, but absolutely agrees with every philosophical statement that I have shared with her that I have gleaned from this forum, and my own readings,.

The core content that is heavily influencing me at present has little to do with prayer or worship, I embrace it as I would the words of Plato, or Aristotle, the most wonderful thing about sikhism for me is the complete lack of mumbo jumbo that seems to exist elsewhere, its the feeling of reading something, deciphering it and then having a moment of self discovery, if more people were to use this fantastic toolbox to break themselves down and then rebuild themselves, yes, I believe we could eradicate a lot of negativity that over time has penetrated the human consciousness, and in time, could produce a better world for our children, and our childrens children, and etc etc

spnadmin · Oct 21, 2011

General notes:

We are on the edge of being more than prickly. Let's weigh our words and try to find what was well-intended in the words of our co-discussants. I don't want to ruin a good discussion with constant interventions.

This is imho a Sikh Sikhi Sikhism type of thread because it is about the values that we carry forward in life as Sikhs from childhood. Sikhi is the way of life, the manner by which values are imparted. Yes, these are not values of Sikhs alone, but the manner of imparting them certainly can be. And that is one thing that is missing here. What does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji say about taking some of the burden for the sins of our kin? Is there not something about our ability, or perhaps even our duty, to carry our kin across the terrifying world ocean? Do we have any duty at all in Sikhi to take on the burden? Or are we travel on our journey duty free? I don't know.

Harry Haller · Oct 21, 2011

I believe it is our duty as sikhs to make creation better not worse, our imprint on this world is all we can leave, not only for our kin, but for our fellow species, if that over time improves creation, and takes creation to a better path, is that not the pure essence of sikhism, period?

Ambarsaria · Oct 21, 2011

Harry Haller ji I believe Gurbani teaches us to live now and for the future. Furthermore some of trying to remedy prostitution, etc., when one reads literally appears like vigilantism which cannot be furthest from our Guru's and Gurbani teachings. In the fervor to do good we cannot lose sight of all around us is creation, deserving of consideration and not vengeance.

Sat Sri Akal.

Harry Haller · Oct 21, 2011

Ambersariaji,

prostitutes, thieves, crooks, fraudsters, are as dear to me as anyone else, it is only when we focus on the labels that we end up bringing such people down, when we should be focusing on their good to bring them up

Ambarsaria · Oct 21, 2011

harry haller said:
Ambersariaji,

prostitutes, thieves, crooks, fraudsters, are as dear to me as anyone else, it is only when we focus on the labels that we end up bringing such people down, when we should be focusing on their good to bring them up

Sorry brother I perhaps mis-read your post.

Sat Sri Akal.

Harry Haller · Oct 21, 2011

Is it up to each of us to right wrongs, to correct personality deficiencies, to exorcise the DNA of the hookers and murderers, to thin them out, so that the balance exists in the favour of the saints and the warriors, is it indeed our RESPONSIBILITY to bow down before Guru and embrace the teachings not only for ourselves, but so that we can contribute something to Creation when we are dead, almost a solemn duty, if you like, not just for our own souls, but to help purify Creation, to make it better, to rid it of the stench of meism

Ambersariaji

I am drained and tired this week, and I am rushing my posts, to read the above, I do not blame your conclusion, however, to clarify, I am talking about the thinning of DNA from centuries ago, about habits and traits, not actual people, we all have the potential to be hookers and murderers, those that carry that label are just unfortunate enough to have acted on those instincts, which does not make them bad people per se, but it does sentence them to a lifetime of guilt and self loathing, on top of any legal consequence, which is of course unfortunate.

I hope that makes better sense, please correct me if you feel I am wrong

kaurhug

Tejwant Singh · Oct 21, 2011

Spades ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, I could not get the gist of your whole post because it seems, some parts are missing. I would request you to fill in the missing parts so I can respond to it in a better manner. I will try my best to answer from what I have gathered from the partial post.

Got to love armchair psychology.

You may call anything that pleases you but the fact of the matter is that your posts are self-explanatory. Any reader can read them and check them out.

I never met every person on the planet and asked them what their ambitions are so I can't say that for sure.

However that does seem to be general creed that has helped humanity advance.

I am glad you agree.

This thread isn't a Sikhism thread but rather a thread about whether or not the beliefs & actions of a parent necessarily guarantees that future generations will have to perform and adhere to the beliefs and actions of the parent.

I beg to differ with you. The thread is about Sikhism because you particularly mentioned Sikh beliefs and actions, not beliefs of any other faith as you are claiming now.

Your words:

Also obeying the tenets of Sikhism will not guarantee that your offspring will be religious.

You must have noticed that you mention Sikhism and its tenets. I explained to you about the Sikhi tenets and asked you if that is what you meant about them. I did not find the response in your post.

I think you are the one failing to grasp the topic of discussion or what exactly I wrote.

You are mistaken again. Please check your own post about Sikhi that I copied and pasted to show it to you. I took your post and responded to it. It there for all to see.

When have I blamed Sikhi for offspring not adhering to the practices of their parents?

Your words:

I know many religious Sikh parents who have offspring that are very much into partying, sex, drugs, etc 100x more than I am.

Who are you blaming here if not Sikh parents and their off springs? One wonders who did not grasp the topic!

When did I say that Sikhi makes for bad parenting? All I said that is that if a parent's a Sikh that it is not necessarily guaranteed that the offspring will be a Sikh.

You seem a bit confused now. Where did I accuse you of “Sikhi makes for bad parenting”? That was my own assertion and I also explained that bad parenting could be in any house hold, religious and/or non-religious. That is the reason I mentioned spring break. As you are talking about Sikhi tenets and teachings, it is a logical conclusion that we are talking about Sikhi in particular.

What? This has to be the first time in my history of using the internet where I felt compelled to use a motivator to make my point.

Please elaborate what you meant by the above because I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Where in my post did I say learning any sort of skill is bad?

Once again your words:
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you can make them go to Gurdwara, learn gatka, sit them in a Punjabi school, and make them take amrit when they are young. However once they go out into the world you will have no control over their actions and they may not adhere to what you have taught them while growing up.

Let me ask you the question in another way. If they like the skills and often practice them, then what makes you think they may not adhere to them? The odds are in their favour rather than they are for your negative prediction.

when did I ever say that Sikhism leads to people being bums with zero accomplishments in their lives.

One more time, your words:

I know many religious Sikh parents who have offspring that are very much into partying, sex, drugs, etc 100x more than I am.

Maybe if you actually read what I was saying instead of interjecting this nonsense about me equating Sikhi with bad parenting.

I think you should read the post again. I never accused you of what your claim suggests.

In fact I've never criticized Sikhism in that entire last post.

Yes, you did. Read your post again.

More after you elaborate the missing parts.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Scarlet Pimpernel · Oct 21, 2011

Harry title said:
Do I have a duty to correct the sins of my fathers

Muskeveer ji ,You have a duty to yourself ,so correct your own and leave your fathers to correct theirs.

Ambarsaria · Oct 21, 2011

Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Muskeveer ji ,You have a duty to yourself ,so correct your own and leave your fathers to correct theirs.

Brother Sinner thank you for a good point.

Philosophically why would with this approach, one would stop with father and not go on to grand father, their father, their father, and so on .... infinitum.

Soon one would come to the conclusion you stated. There are pretty large religions which would fleece you for past sins and bad stuff from your lineage. One would have to correct so much that there will be no time to do anything positive loland there will be plenty of it left still for others to do. Just does not work that way.

Sat Sri Akal.

Joginder Singh Foley · Oct 22, 2011

WJKKWJKF Sat siri Akal

My own personal feeling is that we should indeed point out to other people the error of their ways Then Leave them to make their own decision as to what is right or wrong by enforcing our views/ways on to others we are walking on a slippery slope here, Do we really want a Sikh Taliban here ????

:happysingh:

Ambarsaria · Oct 22, 2011

Joginder Singh Foley said:
WJKKWJKF Sat siri Akal

My own personal feeling is that we should indeed point out to other people the error of their ways Then Leave them to make their own decision as to what is right or wrong by enforcing our views/ways on to others we are walking on a slippery slope here, Do we really want a Sikh Taliban here ????

:happysingh:

Joginder Singh Foley ji thanks indeed you are very correct.

It is commonly understood that worst kind of insult that you can give anyone is to "Ignore them". So by interacting, sharing, enabling one only proves the key qualities in life of empathy, compassion and togetherness.

Sat Sri Akal.

Scarlet Pimpernel · Oct 22, 2011

Ambarsaria said:
It is commonly understood that worst kind of insult that you can give anyone is to "Ignore them".

Veer ji Sorry to nit pick but what if whilst walking down a street a commonly man gives you the worst kind of insult , but you choose that it is best to ignore it, is that not just understood as kind or is it still the worst kind?Although I have been ignored and have felt annoyed at it I would much prefer that than someone actually insult me,but if we perceive we have been insulted,we have been,if we perceive that we have not,then we have not.It is our own perception that is worst,unkind and should be ignored .

Jsfoley Ji

My own personal feeling is that we should indeed point out to other people the error of their ways

Personal feelings are inside you ,so they must point out the error of your own ways,when your ways are perfect, others will see their own errors by the light emitted from your shining example .

Ambarsaria · Oct 22, 2011

Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Veer ji what if whilst walking down a street a commonly man gives you the worst kind of insult , but you choose that it is best to ignore it, is that not just understood as kind or is it still the worst kind?

nit-picker veer sp ji, the insult is if someone is seeking attention and you ignore. If you were seeking attention and you are ignored, that is an insult. We of course have to learn to handle this as it happens often. Does it take it to mean we should insult others? For me not, most of the times, not always lol. I need to handle my thieves better.

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