Do Members Of Creation Really Need Humans?

[Ambarsaria]

Parma veer ji this is the interfaith section at SPN and it allows us to hear various points of view. Only through sharing we enrich selves and possibly others if they see it fit. Some comments on your post below,

1) If animals have a language, why have they not increased there understanding of each other and the world surely it would make there world easier, to not try and make things easier for yourself goes against basic intelligence.
Parma ji how can you speak with such surety about animals and what they should have done to make their world easier. Every life form may have their own end goals and objectives which may bear little resemblance to our thought processes.

What understanding is missing in animals for understanding each other that you refer to?


So they accept their situation as their thinking however limited or significant it is, is all they know and they don't try to strive to change it, they accept it.

If they are living in consonance why should they change whereas we first struggle to understand and then as a species feel it impossible to live in consonance with rest of the creation.

P.S. We have things in common with other species but I dont think your an animal try calling your best friend a dog and they may question your friendship and sanity. Please dont take that as an insult its a polite conversation. Not trying to be offensive, as when reading people can take things the wrong way.

I never said animals dont have souls. In the guru granth sahib it talks about reincarnation. So I guess the soul exsits but mukthi comes from following a thoughtful life.

There is no reincarnation espousal in Sikhism. So there is no "Mukti" stuff as one is expected to lead a practical life where Mukti or such are not the drivers.
I thought this was a Sikh philosophy forum, look at sikh philosophy and it states the mention of the cycles and in this one you dont accept the situtions you may use the guru granth sahibs guidance to find eternal peacepeacesign
Guru Granth Sahib ji does not say or hint at reincarnation as a belief or actuality.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Isna Ji Satan means opposer ,there is something opposing us in Sikhi but it's part of us.

 

[Ishna]

Strangely enough another name for Satan is Lucifer which means light-bearer. And what's guru? dispeller of darkness? what, like a light-bearer? I wonder if the evangelicals have made that connection yet when preaching to Sikhs... *snicker*

But Sinner bhaji, by opposer in Sikhi, are you referring to the Ego?

Which brings me to a question - do animals have Ego?

I don't know, but I know dogs at least appear to feel shame. I had a maltese/pomeranian dog (Duke) when I was a teenager (he's since been re-absorbed... you know... gone to the big lamb shank in the sky...), and because he was so fluffy, sometimes when he did his number 2s a little bit would get stuck to the fur around his rear end. Obviously we wouldn't yell at him or punish him for this because it wasn't his fault -- we'd simply scoop him up and use the 'dag-designated scissors' to trim off the entangled fur and unseemly attachment. And then send little Duke on his merry way. But most of the time you knew he had one on him because he'd come back into the house with his ears down and looking very sorry for himself, and if you asked him what was wrong he'd slink to his tummy then roll over as if he'd been a BAD DOG and was waiting to be punished. So you'd have to coo over him and fix him up - it was as if he'd humiliated himself and was asking for our forgiveness!

If he didn't have an ego (a sense of self), why would be behave this way?

Do domesticated animals have a different kind (or degree) of ego than what wild animals do?

Animals also appear to feel sadness -- Like the dog in Ambersaria ji's photo (nearly made me cry just glimpsing at it! *kicks Ambersaria under the desk*), and I've seen a documentary where a big cat (a leopard or cheetah or one of those) comes back to where she'd left her cub but it had been killed by some other animal, and she licked it a bit, then started making this grunting sound she'd usually make when calling it (trying to locate it), and then lick it again, and that was sad.

I also saw a documentary (I'm telling you, I really do watch a lot of television...) where a young leopard (apparent a lot of television about big cats!) found an injured baby monkey, and gently dragged it up a tree branch, and was licking it gently, and stayed with it there until it died and then left it there. It was like the cat had taken it out of further harms way and let it die in safety with company. I was suprised the cat didn't just eat it!

Now I'm not sure if these animals are expressing emotions, or am I just projecting my limited human understanding of the world onto other creatures -- that would make ME sad, so the cat must be sad too?

If they actually do feel those emotions, then are they perhaps more aware than we give them credit for? Do you have to have an ego to feel emotions?

 

[spnadmin]

I think they do feel sadness. All you have to do is watch them over the years. We think that we have emotional sophistication...but what is it really? Negative responses to threat boil down to a basic 3: fear, fllight and fight. We can talk and have talked about these 3 for centuries giving gradations to each one. So we feel fear as apprehension, anxiety. Or we feel fight as pugnacity and animosity. Thousands of words. But we are animals. We feel what they feel, not the other way around. A graceful flying bird does not remind of a jet on take-off from the ground. The jet reminds us of the bird. Our imagery comes from our natural histories. We are just kidding ourselves with mind and language.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ishna ji interfacing with, watching and observing animals with a critical eye is a massively humbling exercise. Perhaps less than o.ooo1% (just a number picked from thin air) of the world has time for it.

But if you do find the time and what you said, our Tibetan Spaniel does exactly the same. He feels ashamed with poop on hair, he feels sad if he throws up, he tries to run away from the bed and carpet if he feels nauseated, he coos/moans to only one dog (female, thank God lol) if he ever observes her on the other side of the street and no one else. There are far too many such attributes that one sometimes just marvels about it.

Many marvels to admire in creation and not to determine who is superior? This is another great fallacy in many religions and a mis-understanding amongst many Sikhs. There is no religion that I know of which does not have a put down policy for some forms of life. Be it pork, cows up everything else down, seafood, dogs versus cats, etc. However Sikhism does none of it if one is true to our Guru's teachings.

May be some of us are more animals than human as many humans don't connect to such observations.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Satyaban]

I think all of creation follows it nature, I have ever seen a dog try and climb a tree or a worm for that matter. We have all heard the story of the scorpion and the frog crossing a river while it is not true it is still a good illustration. However man has tried to make some animal act against what is their nature but never really successful. This also is true for the plant kingdom. Man can coerce hybrids but it is my understanding that in time and unattended if hybrids can reproduce they return to their original state.
I am sure there are many here more knowledgeable than me.

 

[Parma]

1)Parma ji how can you speak with such surety about animals and what they should have done to make their world easier.


Every animals point of life is existance, otherwise all animals regarding intelligence will just not eat and stand and die. My friend if your trying to put animal intelligence on par with human intelligence I guess I will not discuss any further as it just shows a lack of understanding of intelligence.



2) Every life form may have their own end goals and objectives which may bear little resemblance to our thought processes.


What end goal or process can there be apart from existance? The evolution theory process is key to that approach?



3)What understanding is missing in animals for understanding each other that you refer to?

Although animals may naturally evolve they cant think to progress there existance, simple. Evolution is just natural progress to them.

P.S. What is all that about 84 lakh june then that many sant's have talked about in the temples. Look up the thoughts and beliefs on sikhism on the web and it includes re-incarnation. If there is no re-incarnation in sikhism then that is a new understanding for me regarding sikhism and sikhism needs to be updated. P.S. If there is no mukhti whats the point in sikhism? What does sikhism give guidance on then? (dont say god, because if there is no process of mukhti it brings the process of god into disrepute aswell, which we can look into on another thread, sticking to animals Living a normal life, no one can dictate that to you, teachers, parents have a hard enough time as it is. No one can control you, you must learn to control yourself.

 

[Satyaban]

Keeping it simple in answering the question I think it is obvious creation would be better without it us, it is we who are poisoning the planet.

 

[Harry Haller]

1) If animals have a language, why have they not increased there understanding of each other and the world surely it would make there world easier, to not try and make things easier for yourself goes against basic intelligence. So they accept their situation as their thinking however limited or significant it is, it is all they know and they don't try to strive to change it, they accept it. I guess animals do communicate with one another to a certain degree but I dont think that you could constitute that as something as complex as a language. I would call that instinct (feeling).

P.S. We have things in common with other species but I dont think your an animal try calling your best friend a dog and they may question your friendship and sanity. Please dont take that as an insult its a polite conversation. Not trying to be offensive, as when reading people can take things the wrong way.

I never said animals dont have souls. In the guru granth sahib it talks about reincarnation. So I guess the soul exsits but mukthi comes from following a thoughtful life. I thought this was a Sikh philosophy forum, look at sikh philosophy and it states the mention of the cycles and in this one you dont accept the situations you may use the guru granth sahibs guidance to find eternal peacepeacesign

My best friend is in fact a dog, dan sleeps with me, sits next to me at the table, eats with me, sits in the garden at night next to me whilst I am thinking, the SGGS also mentions various Hindu Gods, that is not to say that it is confirming existence of these gods as gods,

As for animals understanding, as well as Dan, Alfie the retriever, Virgil the cat, and Charlie, Lola, Spot and Noname the ferrets all live with us too. When we let them all loose in the garden in the beginning, there was much confusion, now, they all mingle, Virgil kisses Dan, Dan kisses the ferrets, Alfie tries to steal everyones food, it is hard to look at them all and not think that they are communicating in some way shape of form,

As for making things easier, Dan, has his own den, in our bedroom, he has to open a door, that leads into a massive space in the loft area, I went in there yesterday to see what was in it. I found the following

2 packets unopened cat food
1 TV remote
3 pairs of my wifes shoes
2 Packets unopened dogfood
A bottle of diet coke, opened and half full.
A white blanket, that he sometimes cuddles before he has a good cry, my wife has theorized that this blanket reminds him of his mother
Some of Alfies favourite toys
Some bones and other edibles

I think this dog is making his world easier, he is getting on with all the animals in his world, he has gathered enough treats if he gets hungry, he has made sure that he will be involved if we want to watch TV, or my wife wants to go out, sometimes I think he is more intelligent than me actually...

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harry Haller ji isn't Dan doing emergency preparedness with the following,

2 packets unopened cat food
1 TV remote
3 pairs of my wifes shoes
2 Packets unopened dogfood
A bottle of diet coke, opened and half full.
A white blanket, that he sometimes cuddles before he has a good cry, my wife has theorized that this blanket reminds him of his mother
Some of Alfies favourite toys
Some bones and other edibles

Then again consonance is relative as to do the following in North America there will be a convoy of buses, cars and trucks creating large amount of pollution and using precious resources,

Where people live in consonance!

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Astroboy]

None of the Prophets were third parties per se. All of them were in a way One of Us.

Goats probably had many saintly beings amongst them. But they could never write down their legacy and teachings.

Anyway we humans never bothered about knowing what the goats talk about!

But our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has a shabad that touches on this subject briefly. The following video has English Sub-titles.

Bhai Surinder Singh Jodhpuri - Main Banjaran Ram Ki - YouTube

 

[Ambarsaria]

But our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has a shabad that touches on this subject briefly. The following video has English Sub-titles.

Bhai Surinder Singh Jodhpuri - Main Banjaran Ram Ki - YouTube

Astroboy ji thank you very much for a very appropriate choice reference.

The Shabad wonderfully describes how all creation is one and every element is aware of the creator.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: In the video if you observe the person on the right with glasses, that is Bhai Sukhdev Singh and he has his own Hazoori Jatha from Amritsar. Wonderful Raagi, he did Kirtan in our house and coincidentally knew my deceased father from Amritsar, India.

 

[findingmyway]

This thread has left me a little confused but then my brain is a little befuddled this week from a fever and nasty cough.

.... maybe we should be taking a leaf out of their book, instead of patting ourself on the back for having reason and the ability to turn something very simple into something very complicated

Maybe we give animals too much credit! The more intelligent a creature becomes, the more it has a tendency to inflict pain, e.g. teenage dolphins frequently gang rape females. Maybe that is what makes us as humans different from animals-we are able to fight the basic instincts and choose to be more positive in our actions to others. Its just that we often don't or when we do we accompany the behaviour with a large dollop ego.

 

[Ambarsaria]

This thread has left me a little confused but then my brain is a little befuddled this week from a fever and nasty cough.



Maybe we give animals too much credit! The more intelligent a creature becomes, the more it has a tendency to inflict pain, e.g. teenage dolphins frequently gang rape females. Maybe that is what makes us as humans different from animals-we are able to fight the basic instincts and choose to be more positive in our actions to others. Its just that we often don't or when we do we accompany the behaviour with a large dollop ego.

findingmyway ji we need to compare notes. So are you suggesting that there is more intra-species hate, anger, conflict, etc., between say Lion species versus us (humans) because they are dumb and we are smart? I think the truth is the other way.

I am no PETA (http://www.peta.org/) spokesperson but I do believe we don't give the animal kingdom the thought or the time they deserve and we could perhaps learn something if we did.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Finding myway Ji
Hope you are getting over that cold and fever I like how you know so much about dolphin behaviours, it is not so much about how intelligent a creature gets ,it is whether they can overide their animal instinct.Many intelligent humans cannot subdue their animal instinct and show no morality maybe because humans are animals too .

 

[Satyaban]

This thread has left me a little confused but then my brain is a little befuddled this week from a fever and nasty cough.



Maybe we give animals too much credit! The more intelligent a creature becomes, the more it has a tendency to inflict pain, e.g. teenage dolphins frequently gang rape females. Maybe that is what makes us as humans different from animals-we are able to fight the basic instincts and choose to be more positive in our actions to others. Its just that we often don't or when we do we accompany the behaviour with a large dollop ego.

If the dolphins are doing this they are behaving as is thieir nature.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Satyaban ji intriguing stuff indeed. Logic must be strong and infalliable. So a question/query and your thoughts,

If the dolphins are doing this they are behaving

as is thieir nature.

So we are on the Internet, is it as is our nature :noticekudieacesign.

Extending further is there a limit on "as is their nature" paradigm as we can state everything that everyone is doing is "as is their nature" and hence such are not accountable! Just musing.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Satyaban]

Satyaban ji intriguing stuff indeed. Logic must be strong and infalliable. So a question/query and your thoughts,

Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsaria ji

So we are on the Internet, is it as is our nature

I would say of course. We are social animals and spend much of our time socializing and communicating in some manner.

If dolphins went on a vegetarian diet I would think that is against their nature as would attacking human be. Furthermore I am one of those who believe ego is the causative factor for mankind's woes criminal and social. This certainly separates mankind from the rest of the animal kingdom for as someone said we are animals.

 

[findingmyway]

findingmyway ji we need to compare notes. So are you suggesting that there is more intra-species hate, anger, conflict, etc., between say Lion species versus us (humans) because they are dumb and we are smart? I think the truth is the other way.

I am no PETA (http://www.peta.org/) spokesperson but I do believe we don't give the animal kingdom the thought or the time they deserve and we could perhaps learn something if we did.

Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsaria ji,
That is not what I am saying at all. Sinner ji seems to have understood me better! In terms of living in our environment and not squandering resources, I totally agree with you, we have a lot to learn. However, when it comes to other behaviours I am not so convinced (or not always). There must be a reason why the term "animal instincts" has negative connotations!! Anyone who has been harassed by monkeys will agree I'm sure

If the dolphins are doing this they are behaving as is thieir nature.

Yes they are but when humans behave like this it is also in their nature but that doesn't make it right. A lot of research is going on in trying to understand what level of understanding other creatures have. So far, it has been found only great apes and dolphins have enough self awareness to understand a mirror. Dolphins show quite narcissistic tendencies. Both show empathy as well as violence.

It is human nature to be filled with and act on violence, ego, lust, anger etc and that is where i think morality, spirituality, law or other aids come in-to help us as humans to figure out which parts of our nature are good and which parts of our nature cause hurt (which i think was the original question?). This is a tool dolphins and other animals don't have. I think there is a reason Gurbani differentiates us from other animals and I think we have a lot more responsibility than animals so comparing our behaviour to them is like comparing apples and oranges in many respects!!

My philosophy in life is to take away the good in what i have observed and use the bad as a lesson. That includes in animal behaviour. We need the external help as we have an ability to go against our natural instincts or use them differently to be better people. Animals don't have this ability. If I've got the wrong end of the stick for this thread I apologise!! :blushhh:

 

[Ambarsaria]

findingmyway ji just one comment and I don't think we are too far apart and may be be I think of animals little dearingly,

There must be a reason why the term "animal instincts" has negative connotations!!
- Connotation according to Humans and I am sure the feeling is mutual between animal kingdom and human kingdom.

Anyone who has been harassed by monkeys will agree I'm sure

- Now this is disturbing. Perhaps a University research project can be started with a Government grant. May be the perfume (I think you don't wear much, but could be wrong), perhaps they wanted to be closer and you thought it was harassment (I will feel the same), etc. etc. lollollol

Hope your fever is gone and you feeling better mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.