Jaap Do You Think Jaap Sahib Passes The Touchstone Of Gurbani?

[Ishna]

Actually the entire premise of this Thread is wrong.
The GURBANI "touchstone" test is used to verify if any writing/historical sakhi/incident/poem etc is as..."per Gurbani.....in essence. This DOESNT make the sakhi/inicdent/historical incident into GURBANI....because the GURBANI is GURU and GURU is GURBANI as Guru Amardass ji already explcitly and implicitly declared in Anand sahib.

Gyaniji

I am not so sure the premise of the thread is wrong (says the thread starter). The question is indeed 'is Jaap discussing the same theme as the GURBANI in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Are there parts of which which are clearly outside of the position of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?'

The question is not 'Is Jaap Gurbani' because we have already established it is not.

Surely we are capable of assessing whether or not a poem is in tune with the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or is talking about something which should not be part of a Sikh's mind?

If I were to bring any other poem to the forum, let's say Max Ehrmann's Desiderata (although it does not profess to describe the Creative Force), and ask you 'is this poem in the same spirit as Sikhi, or do you think it talks about concepts and ideas which are outside of the Sikh philosophy', members here might not be so quick to say 'you can't call it Gurbani because it's not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, end of story'.

Other threads here have talked about us using our intellect to assess the things we encounter in life and make decisions from the Sikh perspective. So, I was hoping we could take the poem of Jaap and see if it says stuff which is nonsense from the perspective of Sikhi, or if it talks sense.

The question has never been whether Jaap is or is not Gurbani, or should or should not have been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Why can't we look at it as just another poem, for the purpose of this thread?

welcomekaur

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji, I don't think you need a quotation for this. But look at this. This is Jap and Simran in action, it is put the Formless put into words. It is not telling one to meditate on Raam Naam and realize Gurujyot, it is doing it.

To my knowledge, Jap is a verb and Jaap is a noun. This is very obvous from the bani that this is Jaap. One could Jap it but this is specifically the author's Jaap.

ਜਾਪੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ
जापु साहिब
JAPU SAHIB

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
The Lord is One and He can be attained through the grace of the true Guru.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹ ॥
स्री वाहिगुरू जी की फ़तह ॥
The Lord is One and the victory is of the Lord.

ਜਾਪੁ ॥
जापु ॥
NAME OF THE BANI.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ੧੦ ॥
स्री मुखवाक पातिसाही १० ॥
The sacred utterance of The Tenth Sovereign:

ਛਪੈ ਛੰਦ ॥ ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
छपै छंद ॥ त्वप्रसादि ॥
CHHAPAI STANZA. BY THY GRACE

ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਚਿਹਨ ਅਰੁ ਬਰਨ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਤਿ ਨਹਿਨ ਜਿਹ ॥
च्क्र चिहन अरु बरन जाति अरु पाति नहिन जिह ॥
He who is without mark or sign, He who is without caste or line.

ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥
रूप रंग अरु रेख भेख कोऊ कहि न सकति किह ॥
He who is without colour or form, and without any distinctive norm.

ਅਚਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਅਮਿਤੋਜਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥
अचल मूरति अनभउ प्रकास अमितोजि कहिजै ॥
He who is without limit and motion, All effulgence, non-descript Ocean.

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਣਿ ਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾਣਿ ਗਣਿਜੈ ॥
कोटि इंद्र इंद्राणि साहु साहाणि गणिजै ॥
The Lord of millions of Indras and kings, the Master of all worlds and beings.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਮਹੀਪ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਅਸੁਰ ਨੇਤਿ ਨੇਤਿ ਬਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਕਹਤ ॥
त्रिभवण महीप सुर नर असुर नेति नेति बन त्रिण कहत ॥
Each twig of the foliage proclaims: "Not this Thou art".


ਤ੍ਵ ਸਰਬ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਰਣਤ ਸੁਮਤਿ ॥੧॥
त्व सरब नाम कथै कवन करम नाम बरणत सुमति ॥१॥
All Thy Names cannot be told. One doth impart Thy Action-Name with benign heart.1.

ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥
भुजंग प्रयात छंद ॥
BHUJANG PRAYAAT STANZA

ਨਮਸਤ੍ਵੰ ਅਕਾਲੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਵੰ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੇ ॥
नमसत्वं अकाले ॥ नमसत्वं क्रिपाले ॥
Salutation to Thee O Timeless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Beneficent Lord!

ਨਮਸਤ੍ਵੰ ਅਰੂਪੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਵੰ ਅਨੂਪੇ ॥੨॥
नमसत्वं अरूपे ॥ नमसत्वं अनूपे ॥२॥
Salutation to Thee O Formless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Wonderful Lord! 2.

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਭੇਖੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਲੇਖੇ ॥
नमसतं अभेखे ॥ नमसतं अलेखे ॥
Salutation to Thee O Garbless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Accountless Lord!

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਕਾਏ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਜਾਏ ॥੩॥
नमसतं अकाए ॥ नमसतं अजाए ॥३॥
Salutation to Thee O Bodyless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Unborn Lord!3.

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਗੰਜੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਭੰਜੇ ॥
नमसतं अगंजे ॥ नमसतं अभंजे ॥
Salutation to Thee O Indestructible Lord! Salutation to Thee O Indivisible Lord!

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਨਾਮੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਠਾਮੇ ॥੪॥
नमसतं अनामे ॥ नमसतं अठामे ॥४॥
Salutation to Thee O Nameless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Non-Spatial Lord! 4.

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਧਰਮੰ ॥
नमसतं अकरमं ॥ नमसतं अधरमं ॥
Salutation to Thee O Deedless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Non-Religious Lord!

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਨਾਮੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਧਾਮੰ ॥੫॥
नमसतं अनामं ॥ नमसतं अधामं ॥५॥
Salutation to Thee O Nameless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Abodeless Lord! 5.

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਜੀਤੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਭੀਤੇ ॥
नमसतं अजीते ॥ नमसतं अभीते ॥
Salutation to Thee O Unconquerable Lord! Salutation to Thee O Fearless Lord!

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਬਾਹੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਢਾਹੇ ॥੬॥
नमसतं अबाहे ॥ नमसतं अढाहे ॥६॥
Salutation to Thee O Vehicleless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Unfallen Lord! 6.

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਨੀਲੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਨਾਦੇ ॥
नमसतं अनीले ॥ नमसतं अनादे ॥
Salutation to Thee O Colourless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Beginningless Lord!

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਛੇਦੇ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਗਾਧੇ ॥੭॥
नमसतं अछेदे ॥ नमसतं अगाधे ॥७॥
Salutation to Thee O Blemishless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Infinite Lord! 7.

Well ,Bhagat Singh Ji ,I believe by Simply mentioning of SATi GuR Prasaadi
is not enough .Under the heading of SatiGuR Prasaadi can anything written be accepted as Gurbanee?
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Gyaniji

I am not so sure the premise of the thread is wrong (says the thread starter). The question is indeed 'is Jaap discussing the same theme as the GURBANI in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Are there parts of which which are clearly outside of the position of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?'

The question is not 'Is Jaap Gurbani' because we have already established it is not.

Surely we are capable of assessing whether or not a poem is in tune with the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or is talking about something which should not be part of a Sikh's mind?

If I were to bring any other poem to the forum, let's say Max Ehrmann's Desiderata (although it does not profess to describe the Creative Force), and ask you 'is this poem in the same spirit as Sikhi, or do you think it talks about concepts and ideas which are outside of the Sikh philosophy', members here might not be so quick to say 'you can't all it Gurbani because it's not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji'.

Other threads have talked about us using our intellect to assess the things we encounter in life and make decisions from the Sikh perspective. So, I was hoping we could take the poem of Jaap and see if it says stuff which is nonsense when compared to Gurbani, or if it talks sense.

The question has never been whether Jaap is or is not Gurbani, or should have been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Why can't we look at it as just another poem, for the purpose of this thread?

welcomekaur

ISHNA Ji,
While I appreciate your view to consider JAAP just as another poem.But such considerations always lead to confusion with the main and real Gurbanee . This is due to the usual nature of Human beings to play their own role in their own interests.So we should keep this in mind.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Actually the entire premise of this Thread is wrong.
The GURBANI "touchstone" test is used to verify if any writing/historical sakhi/incident/poem etc is as..."per Gurbani.....in essence. This DOESNT make the sakhi/inicdent/historical incident into GURBANI....because the GURBANI is GURU and GURU is GURBANI as Guru Amardass ji already explcitly and implicitly declared in Anand sahib.
In the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there are a few Guru Nanaks contributing..BUT NONE has penned a "DUPLICATE" Japji..Sukhmani..Anand Sahib...so there are no two japjis or two Sukhmanis, Two Anands, two Sadds,two Sohilas, or Two rehrasses.. in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There are various paintees Akhreeh compositions which stand on their own and have their authors clearly displayed. WHAT Guru Nanak JI began..the following Guru NanakS faithfully followed and REITERATED..explained further..elaborated on..etc BUT Never "duplicated". And also even more importantly there are no such japjis, sukhmanis, or anands by unknown authors still available OUTSIDE the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for us Sikhs to be going around wild goose chasing them to verify their Gurbani Touchstone charactersitics !!! The GURU is SARAB KALA SANRATH SARAB KALA SAMPOORAN..COMPLETE in all aspects.
The GURBANI is GURBANI..however the SIKH GURUS NEVER laid exclusive claim to be the Know alls, the ONLY WAY..etc... For EXAMPLE.... there is.."Naam" in the Vedas..as stated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...but that is beside the point. FOR a SIKH the SOLE ISHT has to be the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ONLY..NONE OTHER.....a SIKH has to have his FILL of Naam form GURBANI in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...he neednt go loking at the Vedas..or the Koran or the Bible..or anywhere else..IF a "SIKH" is UNFUFILLED by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..then its his own failing and NOT the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. IF a person cant be filled by the OCEAN..then its not the fault of the Ocean and he can stand by a brook and claim that small drain fills him...becasue the drain also contains WATER..same as the Ocean ???
BOTTOM LINE..only GURU can pen GURBANI. Period. The GURU is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. PERIOD.welcomemunda

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
With due respect to your views I would like to bring to your kind notice that GURBANI is GURU or GURU is GURBANI .We can learn from the full text of the SABAD that BANI is GUR not GURU as we understand.
Because we dont differentiate between the meanings of the words GURU and GUR we are understanding so.
I would request you to look into the full text of this SABAD as I am equally interested in knowing how we consider GUR as GURU for BANI.
Prakash.S.Bagga