Eh Janam Tumhare Lekhe

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji

Let me persist with one more thought -- from the mind, heart, eyes and computer keyboard of a beginner -- and then shut up. Why is is that 4 of the 5 translations, all by native born Punjabi speakers, are all different? A simple-minded question, I know. But there has to be a reason. Could the reason be that 4 Punjabi scholars work from different understandings of the intended meaning of these vaaks as they are expressed in English? Did they come up with a different vichaar or is it the same vichaar of Guruji - but a different grasp of the English equivalent?

Let me give another example. I use a gutka by a very famous Sikh scholar. His nitnem English translations are the most widely used. IMHO -- his translation into English is really annoying, because he doesn't get the English side of the equation, in fact his translations are distracting. Everytime the name of Nanak is mentionned, he puts Satguru in parentheses -- of course to be exact and precise. But it is distracting to read Nanak (Satguru) says... 200 times. So I just read the Punjabi side in transliteration and some of the Gurmukhi.

See, I think the problem is not "bad translations." The problem is that there are some badly translated places of SGGS and these are the result of problems with technicalities of English. Thinking back to the verse Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. There we see the Tum....Tum Construction This doesn't happen in English and a translator working from Punjabi to English could get tangled up in how to cast this correctly in English. Another example is the word Hukam -- How do you really say this in English and capture the original meaning without coming up with something that sounds ridiculous in English? Not easy to be a translator.

I also agree with pk70 ji that the entire shabad is full of clues about the meaning of a single line -- this is the axiom that we must follow.

Aad ji,

Guru fateh.

Once again I agree and understand the problems we are facing in English translations by different people.

Perhaps this is a wake up call for all of us who just copy and paste without reading the whole Shabad's literal translation. Now if you see about the Shabad by Bhagat Ravi Daas in discussion, there is hardly any difference between the interpretation between the 2 authors. Hence it is the authors who have interpreted it wrong to strart with which should be discussed and clarified.

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

PK70 ji

Guru Fateh.

You write:



Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by the above?


Vaheguru Seekr Ji
Well, you assume I said something to you, don’t you? In fact I didn’t. You want me to elaborate, alright
Reread posts by VSGrewals Ji in context” Bir Bano Ji”, where I simply asked him why only to stick to that Bir of Bano, why shouldn’t we stick to all the Shabadas Fifth Nanak wrote against rituals? Instead of grasping that, he preached to be “open minded” now when he is questioned; he is calling it “net-picking”
At one hand he favors to have open mind, when he himself is questioned that preaching of having open mind disappears, it’s that simple hypocrisy. You are not part o it in any way.

 

[spnadmin]

It would be interesting to take one shabad translated into English by Bhai Manmohan Singh, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, and Gurbachan Singh, and even Professor Sahib Singh (but we are limited to Japji Sahib if we include him). Then see how the translations deviate in terms of their meaning, and where they are the same in terms of their meaning. Next, try to understandi why the understanding (not the English) may be different. Then try to work out why there is a different English wording.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

PK70 ji

Guru Fateh.

You write:



Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by the above?


Vaheguru Seekr Ji
Well, you assume I said something to you, don’t you? In fact I didn’t. You want me to elaborate, alright
Reread posts by VSGrewals Ji in context” Bir Bano Ji”, where I simply asked him why only to stick to that Bir of Bano, why shouldn’t we stick to all the Shabadas Fifth Nanak wrote against rituals? Instead of grasping that, he preached to be “open minded” now when he is questioned; he is calling it “net-picking”
At one hand he favors to have open mind, when he himself is questioned that preaching of having open mind disappears, it’s that simple hypocrisy. You are not part o it in any way.

Pk70 ji

Guru fateh.

Well, I am sorry to say that from your posts it seemed you were responding to my posts because I did mention about Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh's interpretations regarding this thread in discussion as you did in your posts and secondly I also used " openmindedness and nit picking" to my post to Aad ji.

I checked Virinder Singh's posts regarding what is being discussed in this very thread and he never used either words.

It seems you are confused about some other thread which has nothing to do with this one.

Hence it was not a presumption as you claimed it to be but a logical conclusion based on the facts of this thread.

Now if you want to discuss something about other posts by Virinder ji in other threads, please feel free to let me know.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

It would be interesting to take one shabad translated into English by Bhai Manmohan Singh, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, and Gurbachan Singh, and even Professor Sahib Singh (but we are limited to Japji Sahib if we include him). Then see how the translations deviate in terms of their meaning, and where they are the same in terms of their meaning. Next, try to understandi why the understanding (not the English) may be different. Then try to work out why there is a different English wording.

Aad ji,

Guru Fateh.

Great idea.

Your choice would be my desire and it is not a pick-up line. So you choose any Shabad and post the English versions by different authors and let us discuss is. This is the way with all these great Seekers here we will be able to have a more plausable interpretation in English.

Thanks for the great idea.

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

Well, I am sorry to say that from your posts it seemed you were responding to my posts because I did mention about Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh's interpretations regarding this thread in discussion as you did in your posts and secondly I also used " openmindedness and nit picking" to my post to Aad ji.
I am glad it’s clear to you that I didn’t respond to your comments but the dragging of the point goes on.

I checked Virinder Singh's posts regarding what is being discussed in this very thread and he never used either words.
I mentioned his posts about “Bir of Bano” not about this very thread, obviously you are confused here, there is no mention of “this very thread” in my comments.

It seems you are confused about some other thread which has nothing to do with this one.
Actually you are confused by my comments about hypocrisy. You asked me and I answered it by giving the context, now you are talking about this very thread even after reading what I wrote in reference to Bir of Bano

Hence it was not a presumption as you claimed it to be but a logical conclusion based on the facts of this thread.
When I mentioned “preaching to have open mind”, it was referred to VSGREWAL Ji’s reference in context of Bir of Bano, I referred him and you jumped in uncalled for without thinking for a second. Why? Didn’t you read the word “net-picking in my comments”? You never used that word, then why to bother? You want to drag it, keep doing it.

Now if you want to discuss something about other posts by Virinder ji in other threads, please feel free to let me know.

I shall discuss with him for sure thanks for the permission
Thanks
Regards’
G Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear PKSingh Ji,

Your question about Bir Banno and other Sabds of Guru Arjan;

The Sabd in debate was picked up with a question as top why the Sabd does not end with the name of the Nanak while all other Sabds end with Nanak's Name.
Instead of answering the question you spinned it to other Sabds. Please answer the question from where the discussion started before we go to other 30 + Sabds written by him on his son. I did present two of those Sabds written for his son, one on his birthday and second when he was sick with pox.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant:Well, I am sorry to say that from your posts it seemed you were responding to my posts because I did mention about Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh's interpretations regarding this thread in discussion as you did in your posts and secondly I also used " openmindedness and nit picking" to my post to Aad ji.

PK70:I am glad it’s clear to you that I didn’t respond to your comments but the dragging of the point goes on.

From your response you did and it is clear in your posts as explained above. I did not get where you got the assumption that "I am glad it’s clear to you". My post does not say that. Now if you want to deny that. it is ok with me.


Tejwant:I checked Virinder Singh's posts regarding what is being discussed in this very thread and he never used either words.
PK70:I mentioned his posts about “Bir of Bano” not about this very thread, obviously you are confused here, there is no mention of “this very thread” in my comments.

Well, I was particulary talking about this very thread " Bir of Bano" has nothing to do with this one. If you wanted to talk about Bir Bano then you have written in that thread. Here as you know we are discussiing Bhai Ravidas ji. So one wonders who is confused here?!

Literal translations by Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh, both mentioned by you and me in the posts have nothing to do with "Bir of Bano" but with Bhai Ravi Das ji in this thread. I am sure you are aware of that.

Tejwant:It seems you are confused about some other thread which has nothing to do with this one.
Pk70:Actually you are confused by my comments about hypocrisy. You asked me and I answered it by giving the context, now you are talking about this very thread even after reading what I wrote in reference to Bir of Bano

Pk70 ji, Once again this thread has nothing to do with Birof Bano. As I said before it is you who is confused. Let us stick to this thread. Let us not mix apples and oranges.

Tejwant:Hence it was not a presumption as you claimed it to be but a logical conclusion based on the facts of this thread.
PK70:When I mentioned “preaching to have open mind”, it was referred to VSGREWAL Ji’s reference in context of Bir of Bano, I referred him and you jumped in uncalled for without thinking for a second. Why? Didn’t you read the word “net-picking in my comments”? You never used that word, then why to bother? You want to drag it, keep doing it.

Pk70 ji, Virinder ji did not mention anything about openmindedness and nity bitty things which also means nit picking, in this thread. I did. Read my post in response to Aad ji. So it is you who is dragging with your denial. The posts speak for themselves.

So, my request to you for the next time is that place you post in the relevant threads.

Tewjant:Now if you want to discuss something about other posts by Virinder ji in other threads, please feel free to let me know.
PK70:I shall discuss with him for sure thanks for the permission.

It seems you love to twist what is being said. Read my post again. I never said you need my permission.

With this I would like to end this futile discussion. Now, once again, if you want to discuss with me some other thread, as I said before, pls feel free to let me know.

Thanks for your indulgence.

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

Vaheguru seekr ji

You asked me about hypocrisy thing, I replied it and explained that it was not about you at all and since you didnt use the word "net-picking", you shouldn't have taken that as a response to your post in the first place, you did, may be by confusion, I clarified that then what is left? Dragging?
If I referred to VSGREWAL's post about Bano-Bir, why it bothered you? Let him come and answer it he is 74 years educated man. He mentioned in a thread related with Bir of bhai Bano" to look at that with open mind" I just referred it, why it bothers you so much?. For God's sake you were not even in the picture!!
Regards
G Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

I replied it and you never answered my question about the incomplete Sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page 927.
Virinder

 

[pk70]

I replied it and you never answered my question about the incomplete Sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page 927.
Virinder

Respected VSGREWAL JI

Why I didn't answer? Very simple, I told you to obey Guru's Hukam on rituals instead of looking for more than two lines.
There could be just two lines and he never thought of adding to it.
How Bano-Bir carries authentic Shabad? you rely totally on Bano as per Harbans Singh, I dont because for me when Guru criticize rituals, there is no way the rituals were performed in Guru house. If they were, people would not stay with Guru because there were Dheermal and others shops were ready to take them. True Guru does what he practices. I am not going to accept Bano compared to Guru's own Shabadas against rituals period. I am sticking to Guru what he wrote about rituals not Bano and his so called Shabad.

Regards
G Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

What I cant fathom....honestly i just dont get it...is..

ALL the "twisting..turning..etc etc types of accusations: leveled repeatedly against anyone who doesnt agree with ones own abstract/translation version. To me that looks like Denial in real terms..living in ones own world...just too much..it may be 21st century in the West's most developed First World country......but still in a cocoon.
Just post mail..even mildly "different"..and the accusation is instant..twisted..turned..misinterpreted..
Surely we can give each other some space....no one is an "expert"...no one is " a cut above the rest..no one is way below...no one is "fully Keshadharee" (meaning FULLY and 110% folliwing the IDEAL KHALSA") and no one is "fully clean shaven" either (meaning absolutley 110% clean inside of all the 5 thieves influences).
I have many disagreements..but I try and never accuse any of trying to twist..turn etc.. I am NOT GOD..so how do i know who is twisting and turning...imho too much hyper sensitivity to seemingly "denial modes"..doesnt help at all. Can we really claim we can Read the minds of others ???

I Have ALL the SEVEN Teekas..translations in Hard Copy...and they do DIFFER a huge lot from each other...BUT what i FAILED TO read in any of the Translations is an ACCUSATION by any one author...So and so has twisted..he has turned..he is in Denial. he is living in the past...he has this and he has that...that is a TRUE ACADEMIC Standard we shoull all try and follow. As Antonia Ji has so aptly put..one can lead a horse to water..but not make it drink. NO one has the "Statistics"..so whats the big deal...
Sorry and apologies if i have said too much or hurt any one's feelings...i never intended to...just learning..unlearning..and relearning...a Life time experience !!

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

This is very true,

I Have ALL the SEVEN Teekas..translations in Hard Copy...and they do DIFFER a huge lot from each other...BUT what i FAILED TO read in any of the Translations is an ACCUSATION by any one author..

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Respected VSGREWAL JI

Why I didn't answer? Very simple, I told you to obey Guru's Hukam on rituals instead of looking for more than two lines.
There could be just two lines and he never thought of adding to it.
How Bano-Bir carries authentic Shabad? you rely totally on Bano as per Harbans Singh, I dont because for me when Guru criticize rituals, there is no way the rituals were performed in Guru house. If they were, people would not stay with Guru because there were Dheermal and others shops were ready to take them. True Guru does what he practices. I am not going to accept Bano compared to Guru's own Shabadas against rituals period. I am sticking to Guru what he wrote about rituals not Bano and his so called Shabad.

Regards
G Singh

IF GURU NANAK JI could DROP the Janeau...in an instant..and in full view of all the gathered family members, pandit ji and patwanteh sajjan who were there for the ceremony and would be deeply offended.. (even the Bakra had been slaughtered and the food was ready !!) and REFUSED to wear it...I dont see any logic in the reasoning behind the "GURU HARGOBIND Ji/GURUARJUN JI" failing to STOP RITUAL in their family. Absolutley preposterous accusation. By the time of Guru Arjun Ji..Sikhi was definitely more stronger than when Guru nanak ji was a mere child . The Banno theory doesnt hold water at all...not for me. Avar updeseh aap na kareh is NOT GURU JI...the Same Guru ji who could die on the Hot Plate defending his principles...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

It would be interesting to take one shabad translated into English by Bhai Manmohan Singh, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, and Gurbachan Singh, and even Professor Sahib Singh (but we are limited to Japji Sahib if we include him). Then see how the translations deviate in terms of their meaning, and where they are the same in terms of their meaning. Next, try to understand why the understanding (not the English) may be different. Then try to work out why there is a different English wording.

And not to forget..each of the authors "wears" different "spectacles".
Some like those who authored the Fareedkotee Teka are wearing "SAFFRON Coloured spectacles"...so deeply steeped in Vedanta/Hinduism.Puranas, Udasis. Nirmalas. seva panthi traditions....just the word "6 chheh" and they immediately jump to SIX SHASTARS...for them there could be no other reason for "Chehh"..
The others are also simialrly affected by their background, environment, etc etc
There is a Punjabi saying..Saun de annaeh nu harra hee hara disdah hai...anone who became BLIND in Spring...sees " everything in GREEN"...because thats the last colour he saw !!
There is an ongoing similar "translation Project" goin on on another Forum..but that chief transaltor has a fixation with the Devil/Demon/Angels/HELL/HEAVEN.. etc as he was brought up in the Western education system and Bible environment...so he is busy looking for "Devils and Demons" in GURBANI with a fine toothed comb !!and he is "finding" it !!!! plenty of Devils and demons and hells and heavens..shows how twists and turns do happen after all...one can "see" what one wants in the mirror..Mirror mirror on the Wall...who is the best translator of them all ?? !!! not a joke.

This is a realy Massive ( Capital M ) Project...only a well established Academic/Spiritual/ well mixed group can manage a well balanced translation acceptable to all...Prof Sahib Singh is a "almost Perfect" start..Thank God for that.

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

That is what I was trying to say, but treading softly because I am no expert. They wear different spectacles. I am still trying to figure out which color of spectacles is worn by the author of my NitNem.

I have started a thread in Gurmat Vichaar for comparisons of translations. Tranlations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj: The Difficult and the Contradictory.

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

This is a little bit of a deviation but what do you know of the Prithpal Singh translation which is described as a revision of the translation of Bhai Manmohan Singh. What was revised? Did SGPC approve it?