Faith Without Right Action Is Dead

[Tejwant Singh]

Dear All,

IMHO Sikh faith is no religion but a set of principles to live a way of truthful life as a householder as described by Guru Nanak;

ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੀਤ ॥ ਭੁਖੇ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਘਰੇ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ ਮਖਟੂ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਫਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਏ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਸਦਾਏ ਮੰਗਣ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਲਗੀਐ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥

Gi▫ān vihūṇā gāvai gīṯ. Bẖukẖe mulāʼn gẖare masīṯ. Makẖtū ho▫e kai kann paṛā▫e. Fakar kare hor jāṯ gavā▫e. Gur pīr saḏā▫e mangaṇ jā▫e. Ŧā kai mūl na lagī▫ai pā▫e. Gẖāl kẖā▫e kicẖẖ hathahu ḏe▫e. Nānak rāhu pacẖẖāṇėh se▫e.

The one who lacks spiritual wisdom sings religious songs. The hungry Mullah turns his home into a mosque. The lazy unemployed have his ears pierced to look like a Yogi. Someone else becomes a pan-handler, and loses his social status. One who calls himself a guru or a spiritual teacher, while he goes around begging- don't ever touch his feet. One who works honestly for what he eats, and gives some of what he has- O Nanak, he knows the Path.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1245
Virinder

Virinder ji,

Guru fateh.

We usually say someone belongs to Christian, Muslim, Buddhist faith. Here faith means the religion. Yes, all of the religions are based on the set/s of principles prescribed by their founders.

faith (f

th) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: [SIZE=+0]keeping faith with one's supporters.[/SIZE]
4. often [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Faith[/SIZE][/FONT] Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: [SIZE=+0]the Muslim faith.[/SIZE]
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

vsgrewal ji

One of the principles is Guru ki Seva. Forgive me if I misunderstand you.

Seva to others and to the sangat is seva to the Guru. Seva to the Guru is seva to others and to the sangat. Without this there is no Sikhism. The dharam as discussed in this thread -- does it not all spring from the Guru's seva?

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Tony Ji,

I had posted a thread on selfless service. Self less service of humanity is service to Guru/God IMHO.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Archived_Member4]

Re: Faith with out right action is dead

Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

.

Can you explain the difference between'blind' faith and " blindfaith", the term I used? Can you quote SGGS to elaborate the difference?

Are you using Faith as Trust or as a religion? I used Faith as a religion and also " Blind faith" as a dogmatic religion.



Once again you are confused. I do not think you read my post properly. What I said was that Sikhi is not about faith as a religion. I think, If I am not mistaken, as mentioned above you are confusing yourself between FAITH as a religion and having FAITH in our GURUS.

Allow me to repeat what I said in my post:

"I am sorry to say that you are confused between faith as a belief system and having faith in Ik Ong Kaar and being faithful to Ik Ong Kaar's teachings. "

I agreed with you about having faith in Ik Ong Kaar and being faithful to Ik Ong Kaar's teachings which were bestowed to us from our Gurus?

Below is my agreement with you.

"You are right about the latter two as mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and quoted by you, but they have nothing to do with faith as a belief system which I mentioned in my post."

So I do not understand why this confusion!




I would request you one thing. Please do not copy and paste literal translations from the internet because they are misleading at times. If you know Gurmukhi which it seems you do then read Prof. Sahib Singh ji's explaination in Gurmukhi and put in your own words in Englush so we can be on the same page,so to speak. No pun intended. I look forward to reading the interpretation in your own words of the above Shabad. However,once again, I agree with what you have highlighted above.



What does humility have to do with what we are talking about? Humility is the tool that Gurbani gives us like many others. But, this tool like others can only be obtained when we have trust- faith in our Gurus. This 'faith' has nothing to do with faith as a religion, the point of my initial post.



Faith as a religion or faith in Gurbani? I talked about faith as a religion. The latter part I did agree with you. Please learn to make the distinction.



Once again, FAITH as what or FAITH in what and whom? The answer to the former is faith as a religion and the answer to the latter two is faith in Gurbani and in our Gurus.

So which FAITH are you talking about? Please elaborate. I only believe in the faith in the latter two as explained before.

I will wait for your response where you can distinguish between 'blind' faith and " blindfaith" the term I used as a dogmatic religion, as mentioned above.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji,
This is so ridiculous, Tejwant, I am going to quote back to you, your initial post. And I want you to show me where you say, "Sikhi is not about faith as a religion." I want to see this written in your initial post.

said by Tejwant

Faith makes people blind.Sikhi is not about faith but based on 3 basic tenets:​

1. Naam Japnah- Understanding and using Gurbani as the tool box to construct a positive life that can make a difference.​

2. Kirat Karni- Using the tools from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to have a work plan as a true student from the very young age. Studying hard and dilligentlyand honestly- no cheat sheets preparations- and as an older student of life, working in an honest manner to make a living.
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24344​

3. Vand kei Chaknah- Only Ik Ong Kaar gives. A Sikh has no capacity to do so. So by having reaped the fruits by sowing the seeds with the above two, a Sikh starts sharing with others. As a student at a school or in a college, helping others who need help like tutoring and other things and as a student of life, helping anyone who needs a hand in anyway or form, irrespective of their hue,creed of faith.​

That is why for me, Sikhi is neither a belief system nor a faith but a WAY OF LIFE.​

Tejwant Singh​

That is why for me, Sikhi is neither a belief system nor a faith but a WAY OF LIFE.

And this part only speaks about you not about Sikhi as you said "for me".



Any person can see that you said Sikhi is not about faith PERIOD! All this belief system and religion things at the end are all Blah Blah Blah. Sikhi is a way of life PERIOD.

Faith and Sikhi go hand in hand. Read Japji Sahib and then read Kirtan Sohila, see what Guru Sahib says about the faithless.(Here Guru Sahib attaches ego to the faithless.)(And in Japji Sahib attaches Humility to Faith; it's really easy to understand, just read more carefully when you do paath) Any person that reads Japji Sahib in the morninng and Kirtan Sohila at night knows that faith is a must in Sikhi.

As your initial post shows there is not a place where you say what you proclaim to say afterwards. If you have ever watched the show cops the criminals always at the end say "I said this......" But then at that point the cop throws the criminal in the car and just shakes his head.

Have a great day Tejwant

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please do not get upset.

Here it are the exact quotes by me:

"Faith makes people blind.Sikhi is not about faith but based on 3 basic tenets:"​

In the above statement it is implicit that Faith means religion and the 3 basic tenets explained it in a more elaborarte manner why Sikhi, as a faith, as a religion is not a dogmatic religion like many others but a way of life.

This is my second statement mentioned by you:

"That is why for me, Sikhi is neither a belief system nor a faith but a WAY OF LIFE. "

Sikhi= Sikhism and some call it a religion.

Belief System= A religion.

Faith= Religion. According to the meanings given from the dictionary.

Ofcourse I am talking about the way I used faith as a religion is quite exiplicit in the post.

Now Faith has different meanings which are also explained in my intial post and asked you how you were using faith, in what context?

And, If you noticed I did I agree with you if you used faith in Guru and Gurbani and in Ik Ong Kaar. So I just asked you to explain the context of the word Faith used by you. Nothing more.

You said:

Faith and Sikhi go hand in hand. Read Japji Sahib and then read Kirtan Sohila, see what Guru Sahib says about the faithless.(Here Guru Sahib attaches ego to the faithless.)(And in Japji Sahib attaches Humility to Faith; it's really easy to understand, just read more carefully when you do paath) Any person that reads Japji Sahib in the morninng and Kirtan Sohila at night knows that faith is a must in Sikhi.

So, let me ask you again as I did before and you never responded to, in what context are you using FAITH above? Please elaborate it. Is faith used a religion, or the faith in our Gurus, faith in SGGS, faith in Ik Ong Kaar?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.


Please do not get upset.

Tejwant ji, You're really bad at making judgments and yet you still do it

Here it are the exact quotes by me:

"Faith makes people blind.Sikhi is not about faith but based on 3 basic tenets:"​

In the above statement it is implicit that Faith means religion and the 3 basic tenets explained it in a more elaborarte manner why Sikhi, as a faith, as a religion is not a dogmatic religion like many others but a way of life.

We are speaking about Sikhi. Also at the end you say Sikhi for you is a way of life, only for you. Not Sikhi as a whole is a way of life. Your having a tough time understanding your own post. Sikhi is a way of life, which this way of life is about faith.

This is my second statement mentioned by you:

"That is why for me, Sikhi is neither a belief system nor a faith but a WAY OF LIFE. "

Sikhi= Sikhism and some call it a religion.

Some say Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism does it make it true! NO.

Belief System= A religion.

Faith= Religion. According to the meanings given from the dictionary.

Ofcourse I am talking about the way I used faith as a religion is quite exiplicit in the post.

You are talking about yourself where you mention religion, not about Sikhi. And there was nothing explicit about your statement. Try to understand your own writing Tejwant. We are talking about Sikhi. Since we are talking about Sikhi and you wrote on Sikhi then it would make sense to get the meaning of faith from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Now Faith has different meanings which are also explained in my intial post and asked you how you were using faith, in what context?

We are talking about Sikhi. You should try to read post properly Tejwant. Name the different meanings faith has in Sikhi.

And, If you noticed I did I agree with you if you used faith in Guru and Gurbani and in Ik Ong Kaar. So I just asked you to explain the context of the word Faith used by you. Nothing more.

Sikhi is a way of life and there is no other way to use faith in Sikhi as in the Lord/Gurus/Gurbani.

So, let me ask you again as I did before and you never responded to, in what context are you using FAITH above? Please elaborate it. Is faith used a religion, or the faith in our Gurus, faith in SGGS, faith in Ik Ong Kaar?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant, I asked you to answer a simple question in my last post and you went on about some implicit and explicit blah blah, that made no sense at all and I bet you will continue with your petty explicit and implicit agruement for the sake of arguing.

The bottom line is Sikhi as in Sikhi, not a dictionary, but as in Sikhi faith is a must. Without faith your Naam japna, sharing with others, honest living is all lost in duality and in vain.

Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad.they take their cleansing baths, and give to charity again and again, but they are ultimately consumed by their love of duality. When the Dear Lord Himself grants His Grace, they are inspired to love the Naam. O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. || 5 || 20 || 53 || ang 34​

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Singh ji,

Thanks for your response. Finally you have responded to my repeated questions in your usage of the word FAITH in your posts and now you have explained it very well in the following manner:

Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad.they take their cleansing baths, and give to charity again and again, but they are ultimately consumed by their love of duality. When the Dear Lord Himself grants His Grace, they are inspired to love the Naam. O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. || 5 || 20 || 53 || ang 34​

Now if you would read my posts. I agreed with you on that from the very beginning.​

Enjoy your Gurmat journey.:happy:​

Tejwant Singh​

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji,

Thanks for your response. Finally you have responded to my repeated questions in your usage of the word FAITH in your posts and now you have explained it very well in the following manner:

Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad.they take their cleansing baths, and give to charity again and again, but they are ultimately consumed by their love of duality. When the Dear Lord Himself grants His Grace, they are inspired to love the Naam. O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. || 5 || 20 || 53 || ang 34​

Now if you would read my posts. I agreed with you on that from the very beginning.​

Enjoy your Gurmat journey.:happy:​

Tejwant Singh​

I'm glad you figured out faith is needed in Sikhi:welcome:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I'm glad you figured out faith is needed in Sikhi:welcome:

WRONG. Faith alone means nothing in Sikhi.

faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru is needed which I said I agreed with you from the very beginning.

Happy Vaisakhi/Khalsa day to you.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member4]

WRONG. Faith alone means nothing in Sikhi.

faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru is needed which I said I agreed with you from the very beginning.

Happy Vaisakhi/Khalsa day to you.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji, I never said faith alone.

Please read my post properly, Thanks

Happy Vaisakhi