Fasting: Penance, Blessing, Hypocrisy Or Me-ism?

[angrisha]

angrisha ji,

Guru fateh.

Before I get into the intricacies of the thread, I have noticed that you have used the word God often in your posts:
I










Would you be kind enough to describe what you consider is God in your own words, so I can understand better where you are coming from?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

I think for me I use the God, because it's an more generic reference while writing. God for me, is something I have difficulty fully describing and the meaning has constantly evolved thorough my life. God currently for me implies the universal energy which ties everything together, in it's vastness its hard to put into words... But it is the force and intelligence which everything is connected to... It is ever present and never changing.
I think that's the best articulation I can put into words right now.[/quote]

 

[spnadmin]

`
angrisha ji

This part of your earlier comment was addressed to me. I will do my best in reply because it is a powerful insight into a complex set of issues.

Heres a question about relating to a religious identity, if you start associating what you do 'religiously' to a culture arent we breeding more unconsciousness? In the sense that 'turban days' might make it okay for insecurities some children have of being different (especially in areas with few punjabi ppl), but do we then start to associate the turban as a cultural tool rather than one that can be used to facilitate a connection?

To start I am not altogether certain what "connection" you mean in the last sentence. Without knowing that I can only rely on my own inference about it. The "tool" other than a "cultural tool"... what would that be? What tool that is better than Turban Day?

Leaving Turban Day aside for the moment, let me talk about the connection that I believe needs to be made for those who tie dastar and those who do not, Sikh and non-Sikh alike. Going back to the time of Guru Nanak, wearing a turban, keeping a beard and riding a horse were privileges reserved for the wealthy. Turban then symbolized affluence and status; it was itself a cultural tool for preserving consciousness of who was high and who was low in a very status conscious society. Then our Gurus uttered several of their many subversive suggestions which ultimately had the effect of undermining time-hardened adherence to caste and rank, and general kowtowing to it.

Today the turban symbolizes, according to those who know, spirituality, humility and respect for hair. How turban comes to stand for these qualities is an open question. The Sikh Rehat Maryada requires it for men as a way to protect the hair. If anyone wants to argue that these are arbitrary meanings, poorly explained, dependent on folklore and mindless following of tradition, I won't argue. As a symbol of culture, it even endows its wearer with social respectability. At one time among Sikhs of rural Punjab, a man who kept hair but did not wear a turban was considered perhaps a bandit of some kind, a "badmash." Back then we turn the clock -- first forbidden to most, dastar creeps back into imagination a "must" for the pious Sikh.

That is not the connection that needs to be made at Turban Day, and it is not the connection that comes with turban as part of Akaal Purak ki Fauj. How many did Guru Arjan Dev shock into awareness of the emptiness of the turban when he said in the context of a shabad which questions the hypocrisy of the Qazi

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧

੨॥
Nāpāk pāk kar haḏūr haḏīsā sābaṯ sūraṯ ḏasṯār sirā. ||12||
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||

Or


ਹਉ ਗੋਸਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਵਾਨੜਾ ॥
Ha▫o gosā▫ī ḏā pahilvānṛā.
I am a wrestler; I belong to the Lord of the World.

॥
Mai gur mil ucẖ ḏumālṛā.
I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ਛਿੰਝ ਇਕਠੀਆ ਦਯੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੭॥
Sabẖ ho▫ī cẖẖinjẖ ikṯẖī▫ā ḏa▫yu baiṯẖā vekẖai āp jī▫o. ||17||
All have gathered to watch the wrestling match, and the Merciful Lord Himself is seated to behold it.

"I" is everyone. Everyone can freely choose to be a wrestler; everyone can tie that tall, plumed turban. There is no high and there is no low and the turban comes to symbolize a state of mind that does not bend to illegitimate power and represents the joyous way in we ourselves ਆਪਿ can chose to sit with the that one who is most worthy of our respect ਜੀਉ

OK! So now to Turban Days. If kids are being taught the dastar is a way to be humble and protect kesh, fine and good. It is not fine and good if kids are not being taught that dastar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji symbolizes the end of inequality. Everyone is invited to sit in the bleachers at the wrestling match with the Guru. If Turban Day is a cultural tool, that is a good thing too. In the US over 60 percent of all reported incidents of school-bullying are of Sikh boys who keep hair and wear the pagri. The majority of revenge assaults and homicides following 9/11 were of Sikh men mistaken for Muslims. These attacks continue. If we ask our children to live as Sikhs in a risky world then the least we can do is provide a rational reason for doing so. Akaal Purkh di Fauj (in so many words the army of the timeless god) stands behind having a choice, stands against the capriciousness of power and class, stands for connecting with the Sat because when all wear that tall, plumed turban of awareness, then all are equal. That kind of thinking is what made our Gurus subversives in the eyes of Brahmins and Qazis. Tying dastar can be an irritating but culturally important morning ritual. To the religious rebel (we forget that is who we are), tying dastar is about making the free choice to connect, be aware, have a care for social justice.

I see no reason why a cultural tool cannot pry open a window on religious identity.

Now I have taken a lot of time thinking what to write. I would like to see others join me by writing responses to Tejwant ji's questions about fasting. If there are deep messages, what are they?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

angrisha ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

I think for me I use the God, because it's an more generic reference while writing. God for me, is something I have difficulty fully describing and the meaning has constantly evolved thorough my life. God currently for me implies the universal energy which ties everything together, in it's vastness its hard to put into words... But it is the force and intelligence which everything is connected to... It is ever present and never changing.


I think that's the best articulation I can put into words right now.

I happen to agree with you, but then looking at your posts the way you have used god in your posts seems quite misplaced. I do not happen to agree with the intelligence part though. You may have to elaborate that for me. I have posted another thread "Evolution and God" where we discuss about it.

Am I missing something?

And as Spnadmin ji mentioned, let's also have a conversation in a deeper manner about the questions asked.

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

There seems to be a lot of rhetoric. The only thing missing is substance in my opinion.

Akiva ji writes:

Is Guru Ji's objection to fasting, or mindless, meaningless fasting?
How can mindful, meaningful fasting be worse than mindless, meaningless Langar?
(Specifically asking as a personal spiritual discipline, not in terms of service to others)

Akiva

What is meaningless Langar in your opinion? Is serving 70,000 meals a day at Darbar Sahib 24/7 meaningless? If yes, in what way? And how about thousands of Langars served everyday all around the world?

Anything can lead to pride - by your standard the Turban Pride movement of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj should be forbidden as well.

What is Turban Pride movement of the Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj? Please explain it and why should it be banned if there is such a movement?

What do you understand by the significance of turban as being a non-Sikh?

Lastly, what does that have to do with the topic being discussed?

But one's true self can't truly manifest while being mastered by the body/lusts - and while one is attached to the material world.

Sikhi is based on the concept of Miri/Piri, the balancing act between the temporal and the spiritual what I call- The Gurmat Fulcrum. Hence your above comment has nothing to do with Sikhi.

Simran/meditation can help develop control/discipline of one's physical attachments.
So can meaningful fasting.

Please elaborate what you mean by Simran/Meditation and what is meaningful fasting?

Everyone has to find their own way.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is the tool box which leads us to the ways of truthful living.

FWIW, limited Fasting (one day a week) has been medically documented to be beneficial to health and longevity.

Please supply us with documentation with peer review about your above claim.

Originally Posted by spnadmin View Post
Are there any forms of fasting that do not of themselves lead to fake humility and false pride in a false self? That question underlies Guru Nanak's objections to fasting.

Akiva ji's response
Of course. Religious fasting doesn't have to lead to fake humility and false pride -- that depends on the individual.

If it is religious then, the "fruit/end" to the means of religious fasting should be the same to all the people belonging to the religion, otherwise the religion itself becomes meaningless.
It is nothing but fake humility and false pride laced with me-ism.

It's a tool.

What kind of tool? What is the purpose of this tool? Does this kind of fasting feed the hungry or chip in the society in any other manner or is it just self serving exercise?

but fake humility and false pride can sneak into any action -- that doesn't in itself invalidate the action.

Agreed but we are talking about religious fasting. Let's stick to the topic.

Anyone fasting just because it's expected socially/religiously is not being meaningful.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but that is the whole idea behind socially/religiously fasting.

Someone fasting with a specific reason/goal -- and aware of that reason.
(I'm using "aware" in the"spiritual" usage -- more than just "knowing" -- it implies a deeper integrated knowing.)

Please explain the specific reason and goal----and aware of that reason from the religious/spiritual point of view.

As such there has to be a "honesty" about the reason for fasting.

Can you please elaborate it? What kind of "honesty" about the reason of fasting one requires?

For some fasting is a way of mortifying the flesh;

What good does this bring to one or to others? After all any religion is supposed to help others.

for some a way of sharing, if just for a short while, the hunger of those without in order to increase their sensitivity to the other's plight; for some it's a discipline -- to train the body to eat when the mind chooses to eat, not when desire wants to. To realize that food is not a "given"

What is the end objective/goal of the above? How can keeping yourself hungry for a day or two is able to fill the tummies that have been empty for a long time?

And the fact is that fasting does change one's state of consciousness -- due in part to the lower blood sugar and fluid levels -- enabling the person fasting to think/perceive in a different way.

Please supply with some documentation as far as the original weight, blood sugar level and other data to back your claim.

if one learns/grows from it then it's meaningful. if it's an empty ritual then it's not.

What is there to learn or grow in it? Or is it mere a rhetorical statement if not backed by some facts?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[angrisha]

SPN Admin:


Thank you for your thoughtful post, just for clarification I wasn't specifically looking into the turban days but more so the idea behind it.

I see no reason why a cultural tool cannot pry open a window on religious identity

.


I do agree with this statement, but when I take it into the context of fasting like we have been discussing. Some people may simply fast as to be included into a cultural group, and to have that acceptance of community. So, in this sense the fasting which may be seen is as a cultural tool, will become more of an egoic idea to be attached to the group.

I think the whole thing of fasting boils down too necessity, in terms of is it something that is necessary to aid in spiritual enlightenment? Does it help us reduce our ego? The truth is, there are many different paths which can facilitate someone to grow religiously or spiritually. We can look at vegetarianism as fast, in the sense that you are consciously choosing not to eat something.

There are Buddhist traditions which focus on diet and how it facilitates connections to either our body or our spiritual self. Some, Buddhists believe that vegetarian diets allows one to be lighter and facilitates growth on the spiritual side, while as adding meat to your died aids the body and maintains a more of a world connection with those around us. There are monks, who subsist only on what is given to them in their begging bowl.

Whatever one partakes in, if you can be clear with your intention as to why your choosing to do it then it can be very beneficial.



Tejwant Singh Ji:

I will find my way over to the thread that you suggested, and I will try to articulate myself better if my writing has lead to any confusion. But, I can assure you that at this moment that is my intention in using the word 'God' in posts. I can see how in writing it might not be conveyed in such a manner... but I think its the context in which I am expressing it. I will be more mindful, in the future thanks.

 

[spnadmin]

angrisha ji

Thank you in turn for your thoughtful post too! The clarification was very helpful. I will not know if fasting can be or is more than a "cultural tool" that brings spiritual awareness and enlightenment unless someone explains how that works. I need more than a statement that is does, and so far I have not read how it does that.

In interests of being completely honest about my own perspective on fasting I will say this. There are many occasions when brief fasting contributes to my feeling of well-being. Not complete abstinence, but abstinence from certain kinds of food. Abstinence from fried foods, salty foods would be examples of foods that over time make me feel not well. On the religious and spiritual side I have yet to see where the benefits of fasting lie. By now we have all seen the sad picture of children wasting from famine. That reality makes my heart and spirit sick. If I fast I have done nothing that helps them. Fasting only adds that many more hungry people to the pot, and only those who are starving from no choice of their own are experiencing the hard facts of hunger. If I really want spiritual growth then feeding the hungry is the only choice I can make. Fasting too feed the spirit on my end is a delusion.

An open mind is a good thing. Let's hear how fasting contributes to spiritual well-being. How does that work? So far all one hears is that it does. Maybe some one will explain the process to me and I will be convince.

 

[akiva]

spnadmin Ji

Someone who has never been hungry can not relate personally with those who are. (In the same way that a white person, no matter how much they think they understand the plight of minorities, can not really know what it means to be a minority in a white society)

Intellectually, yes. Even feel, to one degree (i.e. "those poor children") -- but even that is based on an intellectual "imagining" of what it must be like. Not on personal experience.

The fasting gives us a small taste of what it's like to be hungry, day in and day out -- and that makes it easier for us to relate to them. And the more we can relate to them the more we will want to help them.

For most of us in the west, feeding the hungry is more an attempt to remove guilt.

 

[spnadmin]

spnadmin Ji

The fasting gives us a small taste of what it's like to be hungry, day in and day out -- and that makes it easier for us to relate to them. And the more we can relate to them the more we will want to help them.

For most of us in the west, feeding the hungry is more an attempt to remove guilt.

akiva ji

1. Even if I or anyone else has a "small taste of what it is like to be hungry" sitting around relating to those who are really hungry is happening only in my mind. How does it alleviate starvation?

2. Even if most in the west feed the hungry to remove guilt, the hungry have been fed.

Maybe guilt is a motivator, if not the best motivator. Maybe if there were more guilt, there would be less starvation.

There is another reality in addition to pure altruism and mundane guilt to explain starvation. Many in the west feel neither guilt nor the urge to take action ... they blame the victim. Here the thinking is like so. If you are starving stay out of my sight, don't show up on my TV screen, don't send your NRO's to my door bothering me for contributions. You would not be in this predicament if you had played your cards right. Don't try to make me feel guilty. Such is your destiny.

Would those children advise that I fast or meditate on my guilt --- or contribute my time, energy and money?

 

[angrisha]

angrisha ji

Thank you in turn for your thoughtful post too! The clarification was very helpful. I will not know if fasting can be or is more than a "cultural tool" that brings spiritual awareness and enlightenment unless someone explains how that works. I need more than a statement that is does, and so far I have not read how it does that.

In interests of being completely honest about my own perspective on fasting I will say this. There are many occasions when brief fasting contributes to my feeling of well-being. Not complete abstinence, but abstinence from certain kinds of food. Abstinence from fried foods, salty foods would be examples of foods that over time make me feel not well. On the religious and spiritual side I have yet to see where the benefits of fasting lie. By now we have all seen the sad picture of children wasting from famine. That reality makes my heart and spirit sick. If I fast I have done nothing that helps them. Fasting only adds that many more hungry people to the pot, and only those who are starving from no choice of their own are experiencing the hard facts of hunger. If I really want spiritual growth then feeding the hungry is the only choice I can make. Fasting too feed the spirit on my end is a delusion.

An open mind is a good thing. Let's hear how fasting contributes to spiritual well-being. How does that work? So far all one hears is that it does. Maybe some one will explain the process to me and I will be convince.

SPNADMIN,

Personally I dont believe in fasting either, so this is just theory and speculation not based on any real application on my part.

However, when you equate famine to fasting it is a misconception. When someone is suffering from hunger due to a lack of resources, it is not by choice but by your life situation. Meaning, it is beyond your control why there is in-accessibility to nourishment. Fasting on the other hand is a choice that someone makes. Meaning, it is not a situation that one is forced into, its a situation that one chooses to place themselves in.

The idea when I think of fasting is such that, you consciously choose to limit something. There are many types of fasts, not all of them deprive you of total nourishment. Fasting then can be a tool to show you that when you consciously choose to do something, with an intention and a commitment that it is possible (if not difficult).. it can give you a sense of accomplishment at the end, that you are capable of something which seems very hard... it allows you to translate that confidence into other areas of your life

If you can take that physical act and translate into your practice of reducing your ego. For example, grievances we have on a day to day basis... if you take a day and really pay attention to how many times you might feel upset, even slightly it can be amazing (i.e. someone cuts you off in traffic, the cashier is moving to slow etc). If you can phyiscally be comitted to eating only 2 meals a day at certian times then maybe you can train your mind in the same way to start to let some of these basic things that keep us traped in ego go as well... the later requires even more awarness than phyiscally abstaining from food. So thus, maybe fasting can be that tool to open that door?

Again, this is speculation....

 

[akiva]

spnadmin ji

someone who is already motivated to feed the poor is not the person we are talking about.

We're talking about the person who isn't.

The following story might help:

In a town lived a very rich miser. Every time the local rabbi came to his door to collect funds for the poor, the miser would invite the rabbi in, offer the rabbi a glass of tea and talk about his business. When the rabbi started talking about the plight of the poor people in winter, the miser would brush him off and tell him that poor people like to complain--it wasn't all as bad as the rabbi thought. In any case, he had no cash in the house at the moment, and couldn't give anything right now. Could the rabbi come back another time? The miser would then escort the rabbi to the door, go back to his warm and comfortable room and settle down in his favorite chair near the fireplace, very pleased with himself.

But the rabbi was not pleased. The poor had no money for food or for wood for their stoves and they were cold and hungry.

One evening, the rabbi knocked on the rich miser's door. It was a cold and miserable night, snow and sleet blew through the deserted streets. The miser asked the rabbi in, as usual. But the rabbi refused. "'No," he said, "I won't be long." And then he inquired after the miser's health, and after the health of his family, and asked him about his business, and spoke about affairs of the community for a long time. The miser could not send the rabbi away, of course; he had opened the door for him himself. But he was getting quite uncomfortable. He had come to the door in his slippers and skullcap, dressed in a thin shirt and his house pants. The rabbi, wearing a warm coat with a fur lining, his biggest shtraymel covering his ears and heavy winter boots encasing his feet and legs, talked on and on. No, he didn't want to come in. No, really, he was on his way. The miser's toes became ice and stone.

Suddenly the miser understood. "Oh, Rabbi!" he cried. "Those poor people with no warm clothes or firewood for winter... I never knew. I never imagined it could be like this. This is miserable. It is horrible. I never knew, honestly! Something must be done!" He went into the house and returned with a purse full of gold coins. He wanted to go back to his fireplace as soon as he could. He needed hot tea. The rabbi thanked him and took the money. He, too, was cold after that long talk, but he didn't mind. The poor people would have a good winter this year.

The miser changed his ways that night. He became a regular contributor to the rabbi's funds for the poor, for poor brides, for poor students, for Passover money and for many other causes. He had learned a good lesson that night.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

It is sad to notice some more rhetoric without substance from Akiva ji.

What a shame and a total waste of time rather than discussing the real subject how fasting can help people spiritually and how it can feed the hungry.

The worst is that he can not even back up his own claims and when questioned about his false claims about unmeaningful langars, he keeps mum as usual when challenged.

No matter what religion or no religion one belongs to, false claims about others' way of life show dishonesty in the one, to put it mildly.

One does not need a religion to live a truthful living, just honesty would suffice.

 

[spnadmin]

SPNADMIN,

Personally I dont believe in fasting either, so this is just theory and speculation not based on any real application on my part.

However, when you equate famine to fasting it is a misconception. When someone is suffering from hunger due to a lack of resources, it is not by choice but by your life situation. Meaning, it is beyond your control why there is in-accessibility to nourishment. Fasting on the other hand is a choice that someone makes. Meaning, it is not a situation that one is forced into, its a situation that one chooses to place themselves in.

The idea when I think of fasting is such that, you consciously choose to limit something. There are many types of fasts, not all of them deprive you of total nourishment. Fasting then can be a tool to show you that when you consciously choose to do something, with an intention and a commitment that it is possible (if not difficult).. it can give you a sense of accomplishment at the end, that you are capable of something which seems very hard... it allows you to translate that confidence into other areas of your life

If you can take that physical act and translate into your practice of reducing your ego. For example, grievances we have on a day to day basis... if you take a day and really pay attention to how many times you might feel upset, even slightly it can be amazing (i.e. someone cuts you off in traffic, the cashier is moving to slow etc). If you can phyiscally be comitted to eating only 2 meals a day at certian times then maybe you can train your mind in the same way to start to let some of these basic things that keep us traped in ego go as well... the later requires even more awarness than phyiscally abstaining from food. So thus, maybe fasting can be that tool to open that door?

Again, this is speculation....

angrisha ji

I so agree with you. I am still waiting for someone to explain the process, the route from a to z, that describes how fasting contributes to greater spiritual awareness. How does it work?

Although you begin and end by stating that you are speculating, you have come closer than anyone here or anywhere else in my experience.

I must however add that there are many things that are hard to do, other than fasting, and that can be chosen freely, that would end up with a reduction in selfishness and ego, and a greater sense of being an ethical self.

Hypocrisy abounds in telling others to use their personal suffering to understand the suffering of others, in order to be a more compassionate person. I do not read that in your comments.

Later I will tell my own story of prolonged food deprivation and its complete lack of a spiritual result. All it led to was misery.

Will hold off on that for the time being.

 

[Harry Haller]

I so agree with you. I am still waiting for someone to explain the process, the route from a to z, that describes how fasting contributes to greater spiritual awareness. How does it work?

Anything that messes with the chemical balance of the body, be it drug induced, sleep deprivation, asphyxiation, results in the discussion and contemplation of much rubbish.The wow moments are all induced, and instead of pointing towards enlightenment, merely laud the most pointless and mundane of concepts, although at the time they seem unique insights into life. However, amazing the idea may seem at the time, the sad fact is that mouse wheel power technology for pc's is not the brilliant idea it may have seemed at the time,

 

[akiva]

spnadmon ji

Hypocrisy abounds in telling others to use their personal suffering to understand the suffering of others, in order to be a more compassionate person.

How is it hypocrisy? IT would only be hypocritical if the person saying it doesn't do it him/herself...

 

[Tejwant Singh]

angrisha ji,

Guru fateh,

Please allow me to barge in.

SPNADMIN,
Personally I dont believe in fasting either, so this is just theory and speculation not based on any real application on my part.

I am glad you do not. Guru Nanak does not believe it in either, SGGS, is my only tool box that I use to tighten my lossened bolts.

However, when you equate famine to fasting it is a misconception. When someone is suffering from hunger due to a lack of resources, it is not by choice but by your life situation. Meaning, it is beyond your control why there is in-accessibility to nourishment. Fasting on the other hand is a choice that someone makes. Meaning, it is not a situation that one is forced into, its a situation that one chooses to place themselves in.

I beg to differ with you in a way. No one is equating it but linking it. What good is one’s fasting in any manner if it cannot help the one with an empty tummy? And I am just talking about one who could be next door or on lying in a fetal position on the next corner. What kind of sensible choice it is one should ask oneself then if one chooses not to eat but leave the hungry even hungrier? Why would one put one is this situation if it not for me-ism?

The idea when I think of fasting is such that, you consciously choose to limit something. There are many types of fasts, not all of them deprive you of total nourishment. Fasting then can be a tool to show you that when you consciously choose to do something, with an intention and a commitment that it is possible (if not difficult).. it can give you a sense of accomplishment at the end, that you are capable of something which seems very hard... it allows you to translate that confidence into other areas of your life. If you can take that physical act and translate into your practice of reducing your ego. For example, grievances we have on a day to day basis... if you take a day and really pay attention to how many times you might feel upset, even slightly it can be amazing (i.e. someone cuts you off in traffic, the cashier is moving to slow etc).

So, in the above, it seems you are not talking about fasting as far as refusing to take food is concerned. Please correct me if I am wrong. The way I understand is that not drinking and driving is kind of fasting. Not getting angry is another kind. Rather than buying a hamburger when you are not even hungry but offering it to someone else who needs it. Not putting off “Honey do’s” etc. etc. Am I getting it right here?

If you can phyiscally be comitted to eating only 2 meals a day at certian times then maybe you can train your mind in the same way to start to let some of these basic things that keep us traped in ego go as well... the later requires even more awarness than phyiscally abstaining from food. So thus, maybe fasting can be that tool to open that door?

Well, let me be honest with you, I have been eating only 2 meals for many years now because night meals left me sleepless. No, in reality it was not abstaining per se but just for the sake of good zeees and I do not consider this a fasting of any kind. Now, I do not even feel hungry so I am not fasting in any sense of the word. Two meals are sufficed for me to function normally. This is not a deprivation exercise nor any conscious effort to be mindful about.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

spnadmon ji



How is it hypocrisy? IT would only be hypocritical if the person saying it doesn't do it him/herself...

akiva ji

I will explain my point of view on this later. It is valid question and one that I would like to answer.

added later: There is going to be a delay on this and the other comment I promised because there have been some demands on my time tonight. Will get back to you.

 

[akiva]

Tejwant Ji

It is sad to notice some more rhetoric without substance from Akiva ji.

What a shame and a total waste of time rather than discussing the real subject how fasting can help people spiritually and how it can feed the hungry.

The worst is that he can not even back up his own claims and when questioned about his false claims about unmeaningful langars, he keeps mum as usual when challenged.

No matter what religion or no religion one belongs to, false claims about others' way of life show dishonesty in the one, to put it mildly.

One does not need a religion to live a truthful living, just honesty would suffice.

Are you accusing me of being dishonest? If so, then we have nothing to discuss. I have been nothing but respectful to you -- I expect the same in return.

Furthermore -- your comments show you haven't read and understood what I wrote -- please read my posts again without looking for something to argue about.

Akiva

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Ji



Are you accusing me of being dishonest? If so, then we have nothing to discuss. I have been nothing but respectful to you -- I expect the same in return.

Furthermore -- your comments show you haven't read and understood what I wrote -- please read my posts again without looking for something to argue about.

Akiva

Akiva ji,

Guru Fateh.

One can see you have the habit of underestimating others' views. Commonsense would dictate that I have dissected each of your claims that your posts showed and asked you some questions which you seem reluctant to answer for the reasons known to yourself.

Does that show that I have not read your posts? You are funny to say the least.

You should learn to read the posts yourself. I challenged you about your false claims about the langars being meaningless and I asked you about the 70,000 langars served at Darbar Sahib along with many other questions but you kept mum. I am respectful to everyone. My posts show that.

We are here to discuss things, interact and learn from each other and the false claims from either should be called out which is the most respectful thing to do because we are here as truthseekers.

False, unfounded claims about somethings do not make one a dishonest character. Ignorance plays part in them and some are not ready to admit the latter much less learn from them.

Now show your bravura as you have shown in your post above and respond to my questions in an honest manner. If you do not understand things about Sikhi, then please do not hesitate to ask and lastly, let's stick to the topic and the questions of the thread. If you wish you may respond them with solid evidence as requested by me about your claims many of which are blatantly false that require some solid data to back them up, not mere rhetoric.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[akiva]

I never said langars are meaningless. Look at what I ACTUALLY wrote (and see spnadmin's reply to my comment -- which you didn't comment on, for some reason).

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I never said langars are meaningless. Look at what I ACTUALLY wrote (and see spnadmin's reply to my comment -- which you didn't comment on, for some reason).

Yes you did and I pointed that out in my earlier post. My questions were based on this very post which you failed to comment on when asked. Here are you own words.

Akiva ji says:

Is Guru Ji's objection to fasting, or mindless, meaningless fasting?


How can mindful, meaningful fasting be worse than mindless, meaningless Langar?

(Specifically asking as a personal spiritual discipline, not in terms of service to others)

Akiva

Regards

Tejwant Singh