Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Ambarsaria]

Anybody anywhere who can send us a "Kauli of Atta" (small bowl of wheat flour) that they bought at a store and such flour is guranteed to have no insect or other microscopic parts of the same, I will really appreciate it lol mundahug

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Inspections/IOM/ucm127499
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No dis-respect intended or implied as I have taken the water from the temple pools all my life on visits:

Oh please if someone can send us a little bottle of srowar water (water from the pool around central complexes of say from Harmandir Sahib, other Gurdwaras, etc.) that has no living organisms in it, I will appreciate it too lol mundahug

Choice is ours. We can live and marvel at Creator's universe and the rules of survival, defence, killing, birth, death, sickness or just stay stuck in the weeds for ever and little thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

It is my ambition, to one day be able to retire to a smallholding, where I can grow my own veg and raise a few pigs and chickens. My wife enquired as to whether we would eat the animals. Of course I replied! I especially want a pig, whom I intend to call Mr Porky whom I intend to feed garlic truffles, apples and figs. I intend to rub Mr Porky every day, especially on his belly, with Olive oil infused with ginger, so that one day, We can Jhatka Mr Porky and eat him.

My argument is that Mr Porky will have a better life and death with us, than if he had been raised on a farm and ended up in a slaughterhouse. My wifes argument, although not a vegan, but an animal lover, is that once you have looked into an animals eyes and loved it, you should not eat it, actually she goes one step further, according to her, it would be impossible, having watched her own parents back in Aberporth, kill the family chicken, and then cook it, and then sit at the dinner table and then spend the next hour crying. The chicken ended up uneaten..

No point to be made, just another lighthearted story

 

[findingmyway]

There is a tribe in the rainforest (I forget where-it was in the BBC series Human Planet), they breastfeed orphan monkeys but kill them an eat them when they are adults. They see nothiung contradictory about it as it is life supporting life!

We love to grow flowers and admire them yet don't hesitate plucking them out of the ground. I hate watching cut flowers slowly wither away and die and much prefer to leave them in the ground where others (eg bees) can enjoy them and use them too for longer. Its all about perception :40:

 

[Randip Singh]

But let me add one point, the meat one gets in US or UK (sorry for pointing out) is not Jhatka. One should personally visit the slaughter house and see for yourself that death of animals there is traumatic and not swift. One Muslim guy I met on flight (in India) told me that many joints like Mc Donalds get Halal meat only because it is available in abundance and is cheap. Hotels do the same because many rich Arabs come and they want that kind of meat, so it is kind of the norm. I cannot verify his claim, but it is always better to have food which has been prepared by your own hands or some Gursikh. It is not easy to trust what you eat outside. Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Guru Nanak applied the same test to plants (and other forms of life).

Because a plants does not run away, cry, or do anything it is fine to kill it. It suffers no trauma.

I could drug an animal and kill it and assure you it will face no trauma.

The act of trauma initself cuts off all feeling to minimise pain.

Eating from a Gursikh will make as much difference to me as eating froma Brahmin.

I would rather eat from somone who genuinly wants the best for my welfare.

As a Sikh we accept life and death and get on with it.

 

[Kamala]

Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

Okay so I saw a video of why to become vegetarian (and vegen) in the video I witnessed about how inhumane they treat cows and they're offspring as an example of what I saw was when the cow wouldn't let the machine suck milk out of the cow's utter the cow was poked with pitchforks and they also zap the female cows to death when they stop giving milk due to old age. They also beat the cow's offspring when it begs for milk because the owners beleive the milk is not for the cow's offspring it is for the consumers (Buyers), but didn't god create the utter for the cow's offspring to suck off? You may argue the Guru ji didn't tell us to not be vegen but back then they're aren't any machines capable of this and that would sound as crazy talk if you make rules for something not even existing yet. So is being vegen worth it? I know it sounds silly but the point of it is that when you die you can say you weren't a part of this or get a cow and milk it by hand
Honestly if I did not tell you about this you wouldn't have gotten the paap when you die because you wouldn't have known, but now you know you are at fault.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

The above post has been merged with Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh.

 

[Kamala]

No reply?

 

[jasbirkaleka]

Hi KDS,

We toyed with idea of adding some biological, humane, and practical arguments (like yours), to the article, but what we wanted to do was focus on what Sikhism said and what Sikh-History said. We wanted analyse practices of Sikhs.

Let me give you an example.....Christianity like Sikhism does not specifiy any specific diet Vege or Non-Vege........however there are many Vegetarian Christians........they are Vegetarian because of what their conscience tells them. They do not use Christianity to back it up. In Sikhism, there seems to be a strange need to back up a particular viewpoint through Sikhism. We have sought to dispell this myth (and I think sucessfully), that meat eating or vegetarianism has nothing to do with Sikhism.

What do you think?

Randip Sngh Ji,
I have printed many copies of your vey important post"Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh" and have ddistributed them to a large no. of people.
Thanks again.:singhsippingcoffee:

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

Okay so I saw a video of why to become vegetarian (and vegen) in the video I witnessed about how inhumane they treat cows and they're offspring as an example of what I saw was when the cow wouldn't let the machine suck milk out of the cow's utter the cow was poked with pitchforks and they also zap the female cows to death when they stop giving milk due to old age. They also beat the cow's offspring when it begs for milk because the owners beleive the milk is not for the cow's offspring it is for the consumers (Buyers), but didn't god create the utter for the cow's offspring to suck off? You may argue the Guru ji didn't tell us to not be vegen but back then they're aren't any machines capable of this and that would sound as crazy talk if you make rules for something not even existing yet. So is being vegen worth it? I know it sounds silly but the point of it is that when you die you can say you weren't a part of this or get a cow and milk it by hand
Honestly if I did not tell you about this you wouldn't have gotten the paap when you die because you wouldn't have known, but now you know you are at fault.

What is this Paap you are talking about?

Is drinking milk a Paap?

Is eating plants a a Paap?

Is eating eggs a Paap?

Is eating meat a Paap?

Is wearng leather a Paap?

Is playing tabla (with goat skin on it), and playing shabads with it a Paap?

The question is what is Paap, and what authority are you using to define this Paap?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

In the "olden days"..they had no machines to suck ??? ha ha
Just watch how the GUJJARS in India..even TODAY..insert..YES JI INSERT huge DANDAS made of wood into the Cow's Private Parts and nudge that danda to FORCE out every last drop of MILK the poor cow has inside of her !! I didnt beleive it until i saw it myself..and found its COMMON PRACTISE all over India's dairy farmers ...so who needs a machine when a danda will do ??? Its the GREED !!! HAAK PRAYA NANAKA..us soor us gayeh..in this case the MILK is the Haak of the calf..and the ROBBER is MAN....who could SHARE it with the calf..BUT his GREED stands in the way !!! So when we Take away the Paraya Haak of the calf we are in fact EATING COW !! GET IT ?? sheer HYPOCRACY all over.

 

[Kamala]

Re: Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

What is this Paap you are talking about?

Is drinking milk a Paap?

Is eating plants a a Paap?

Is eating eggs a Paap?

Is eating meat a Paap?

Is wearng leather a Paap?

Is playing tabla (with goat skin on it), and playing shabads with it a Paap?

The question is what is Paap, and what authority are you using to define this Paap?

FIRST OFF THIS IS UNBELIEVABLY DUMB WHAT YOU JUST POSTED (sorry I had to get it out). Drinking milk is a paap if the cow was horribly treated while the milk was taken out of her. Eating eggs is a paap, not only does giving birth to a few eggs hurt but you are taking advantage of god's chicken. It's like if some raksha trap's you're mother and then forcefully tries to make her give birth so the raksha can eat the offspring. As for leather, I make sure I buy polyester x). The true tabla's skin is made from a goat that has died of old age. If that's not the case yes it is paap. Paap is something unjust to one being or taking advantage. Even in mandir's its a paap to take cow's milk which is from a cow that's horribly treated. & as for people horribly treating cow's, as long as you are not doing it or drinking it's milk its fine but remember that store bought milk's cows are not treated right.

 

[Kamala]

In the "olden days"..they had no machines to suck ??? ha ha
Just watch how the GUJJARS in India..even TODAY..insert..YES JI INSERT huge DANDAS made of wood into the Cow's Private Parts and nudge that danda to FORCE out every last drop of MILK the poor cow has inside of her !! I didnt beleive it until i saw it myself..and found its COMMON PRACTISE all over India's dairy farmers ...so who needs a machine when a danda will do ??? Its the GREED !!! HAAK PRAYA NANAKA..us soor us gayeh..in this case the MILK is the Haak of the calf..and the ROBBER is MAN....who could SHARE it with the calf..BUT his GREED stands in the way !!! So when we Take away the Paraya Haak of the calf we are in fact EATING COW !! GET IT ?? sheer HYPOCRACY all over.

I have no clue on if you are backing me up on this BUT firstly are the gujjar's Sikh?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

IF the contention is that "being Sikh" is the issue..then are all those diary farms in the West supplying milk to hypermarkets across the Globe all SIKH ?? Where do the Milk drinking SIKHS in the WEST..and even INDIA..or PUNJAB get their milk from ?? is every milk supplier to every halwaii, restaurant, hotel,roadside dhabbas...even gurdwara ? a SIKH ?? How do we check the authenticity of Sikh milk and non-sikh milk ??
I am sorry...this is the world where NO GOAT ever dies form "old age"....and even IF one or two do die...their number is NOT ENOUGH to cover ALL the MILLIONS of Tablas, Dholkis, Drums, nagaras etc sold in the world...

we need to get real...IF we have Principles and need to stick to them..be like the BHAI SAHIB BHAI RANDHIR SINGH..who demanded and got a cow to personally milk... even in JAIL...the jailor tried to overpower Bhai sahib with the help of 5 or six wardens and force the "forbidden milk" into Bhai sahib jis mouth..NOT a drop went in even though they BROKE his TEETH to insert a hose !!..but sadly 99.9% of Sikhs today are NOT even close to bhai sahib..but we can certianly try..and be real at the same time...???

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

FIRST OFF THIS IS UNBELIEVABLY DUMB WHAT YOU JUST POSTED (sorry I had to get it out). Drinking milk is a paap if the cow was horribly treated while the milk was taken out of her. Eating eggs is a paap, not only does giving birth to a few eggs hurt but you are taking advantage of god's chicken. It's like if some raksha trap's you're mother and then forcefully tries to make her give birth so the raksha can eat the offspring. As for leather, I make sure I buy polyester x). The true tabla's skin is made from a goat that has died of old age. If that's not the case yes it is paap. Paap is something unjust to one being or taking advantage. Even in mandir's its a paap to take cow's milk which is from a cow that's horribly treated. & as for people horribly treating cow's, as long as you are not doing it or drinking it's milk its fine but remember that store bought milk's cows are not treated right.

Firstly do not use abusive laguage on this forum. You have been warned.

Please define Paap? Use Sikhism to back up your argument that whatever YOU are defining as Paap is in effect Paap in Sikhism.

You cannot avoid taking milk from a cow without denying a calf. Cow's only give milk when they give birth. So all milk is Paap (according to your definition).Yes?

Are you saying an unfertilised egg can become a chicken?

You buy Polyester? Are you sayig every piece of clothing you wear has no animal derivative? Are you sure?

True Table? What evidence are you basing this on? What evidence have you that tabla skin is taken from a dead animal in any cases?

What evidence have you that anything you are saying applies to Sikhism?

 

[Harry Haller]

Re: Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

FIRST OFF THIS IS UNBELIEVABLY DUMB WHAT YOU JUST POSTED (sorry I had to get it out). Drinking milk is a paap if the cow was horribly treated while the milk was taken out of her. Eating eggs is a paap, not only does giving birth to a few eggs hurt but you are taking advantage of god's chicken. It's like if some raksha trap's you're mother and then forcefully tries to make her give birth so the raksha can eat the offspring. As for leather, I make sure I buy polyester x). The true tabla's skin is made from a goat that has died of old age. If that's not the case yes it is paap. Paap is something unjust to one being or taking advantage. Even in mandir's its a paap to take cow's milk which is from a cow that's horribly treated. & as for people horribly treating cow's, as long as you are not doing it or drinking it's milk its fine but remember that store bought milk's cows are not treated right.

13800038ji

You make some excellent and hugely valid points, for any religion that accepts the notion of paap and rakshas.

When humankind can give the same consideration to its human citizens, as you want for animals, and there are no starving children in Africa, when everything is perfect, I intend to give due consideration to your concerns. Until then, I am sure I am carrying out, in your eyes, much larger paaps than the ones you have outlined, best I tackle them first

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Dairy prodcuts & Sikhism?

13800038ji

You make some excellent and hugely valid points, for any religion that accepts the notion of paap and rakshas.

When humankind can give the same consideration to its human citizens, as you want for animals, and there are no starving children in Africa, when everything is perfect, I intend to give due consideration to your concerns. Until then, I am sure I am carrying out, in your eyes, much larger paaps than the ones you have outlined, best I tackle them first

Sorry Haller,

I have to disagree.

They are not excellent or valid to Sikhism. As Guru Nanak says:

Page 1290

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

Nanak recognised that those who profess kindness to animals are just as capable (if not more) nasty and evil to human. Fat Brahmins who were vegetarians would watch low caste children starve to death, because according to them, that was their "Karma" and they had done "Paap" in a former life.

 

[Harry Haller]

sorry, that was sarcasm brother, as sikhism does not accept the notion of paap and rakshas

 

[Randip Singh]

sorry, that was sarcasm brother, as sikhism does not accept the notion of paap and rakshas

Lol.

You got me there my friend

Keep it up!!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

And YES Guru ji caught that one too..In Asa kee Vaar Brahman Gaoo ko kar lavoh gobar taran na jaii...says it all....the Brahmin working at the River Toll collection to ferry across the river.... INSISTED the FARE to be paid by the Cow herd and his COW. The Cowherd had only enough to pay for himself..but the Brahmin insisted..NOTHING DOING. The Cow died in the freezing Cold night but before it breathed its last..it DUMPED a load of GOHA (BS)..and the Brahmin used that to "PURIFY" his cooking place !! Guru Ji saw this Hypocracy...Brahmin insisting on the cow paying tax..or die in the event of non-compliance..and yet thinking the GOHA )BS) will save his soul and purify his cooking place !!

 

[BhagatSingh]

FIRST OFF THIS IS UNBELIEVABLY DUMB WHAT YOU JUST POSTED (sorry I had to get it out). Drinking milk is a paap if the cow was horribly treated while the milk was taken out of her. Eating eggs is a paap, not only does giving birth to a few eggs hurt but you are taking advantage of god's chicken. It's like if some raksha trap's you're mother and then forcefully tries to make her give birth so the raksha can eat the offspring. As for leather, I make sure I buy polyester x). The true tabla's skin is made from a goat that has died of old age. If that's not the case yes it is paap. Paap is something unjust to one being or taking advantage. Even in mandir's its a paap to take cow's milk which is from a cow that's horribly treated. & as for people horribly treating cow's, as long as you are not doing it or drinking it's milk its fine but remember that store bought milk's cows are not treated right.

In a way you are right. There needs to be a constant sense of reverence towards nature and everything in it. There needs to be love as well.

In the end, it all comes down to the state of consciousness in which you do something. If such a state is polluted with the 5 Vices, with ego, then anything you do, consider that paap. But if your state of consciousness is God-oriented then anything you do will be God's work.

Of course, the mind, the ego will think that it's God-oriented consciousness and it's doing God's work. That is the real Rakshas's trap.