Forced To Wed: 'They Think They're Doing What's Best For The Child'

[kds1980]

If parents want their children to marry strangers from the punjab then they should have stayed there and not left India then we all would have lived happily in India having arranged marriages.

Rajbinder ji

What you have written is the dilemma of almost every good man, Wife or parents.It does not matter whether It is India or abroad.Earlier The girls always used to obey the in laws
and expected that when they will become mother in laws their daughter in law will obey them but from 80s things changed rapidly,If a man is with his wife then he is considered as slave of wife and if he is with parents then he is considered as wife oppressor

 

[spnadmin]

Rajbinder ji

Then your husband is a very fortunate man! God bless both of you.
:star:

 

[Atheist]

I was raised by Sikh parents who are incredibly religious. I used to embrace everything about Sikhism but then later realized I was just as blinded as any other religious fanatic - christians, jews, mormons alike. There are many good philosophical teachings of Sikhi, but the dogma and theology of all religions has led me to my atheism.

Forced arranged marriages obviously have more than one reason, but for people like us it almost always goes back to religion. Religious customs/practices/law whatever you want to call it teaches Sikhs that marriages should be arranged and as the title suggests the parents will always say they are doing what's best for their children. Nothing could be further from the truth. The parents are doing what's best for themselves and using religion as an excuse to commit child abuse (I don't care if it's an adult child either, it's still abuse).

Forcing someone to marry someone else is a barbaric ritual and stems from religion, and this is one of many reasons I chose atheism. Imagine, a life free from dogma, fear, and meaningless guilt (notice I said meaningless - there is a such thing as meaningful guilt too). Feeling guilty because you married someone of your choosing or your cut your hair or broke some other ritualistic rule is all too common in our world. It is astonishing that parents these days force their children to marry someone of their choosing because it suits them (the parents). This is all because of religion.

Let's do away with "religion" and embrace philosophical ideas and moral concepts that are the result of critical reasoning. Yes, I know the fanatics will say "you can't use reasoning to figure out God and his ways etc." - what a convenient excuse to hide behind religious dogma that causes suffering felt when you are forced to marry someone of your parents' choosing. Seeing articles like this only further reinforces my atheism.

I welcome your criticisms.

 

[kds1980]

Forcing someone to marry someone else is a barbaric ritual and stems from religion, and this is one of many reasons I chose atheism. Imagine, a life free from dogma, fear, and meaningless guilt (notice I said meaningless - there is a such thing as meaningful guilt too)

Majority of sikhs are Jatts and many of them forces their children to marry other Jatts
similarly many urban khatri's marry their children with khatri hindu's instead of other sikhs.
could you please tell me where it is written in sikhism that jatt sikhs should marry jatts

 

[Atheist]

The barbaric ritual stems from religion but it also stems from human stupidity. Sikhi does teach us GurSikhs who have taken Amrit should marry other GurSikhs. And it also teaches us that we should honor our parents (my parents go so far as to claim that it teaches us we should listen to and obey our parents - not sure if I can find you the exact quote for that). So when people see these rules they do exactly what you are saying - the jatts force their kids to marry other jatts and justify it with religion. So even if those jatts you speak of aren't GurSikh (some would argue then that they are not Sikh a all), they are using this concept from Sikhi whether they know it or not to force their kids to marry other kids (and they are using tribalism to carry it one step further and saying that they must also be jatt sikhs too). Look at the trends - it happens so much more in Sikh/Hindu families than it does in atheist/agnostic or christian families. Yes part of it is cultural too, but where does the culture come from? In India, culture and religion are virtually inseparable. There has to be some reason why forced marriages occur more in Sikh/Hindu families than others.

Sikhi says to abolish caste altogether, so "jatts" shouldn't even exist - this comes from human stupidity. So religion + human stupidity = barbaric rituals. I of course agree this happens significantly less in Sikh/Hindu traditions than, say, Catholic traditions.

So, even if it doesn't explicitly say "thou shall marry another jatt if thou is a jatt" people use religion as a justification for it, and since GurSikhs are supposed to marry GurSikhs it's a convenient way for people to use religion to get their kids to marry someone they would like.

You can call it whatever you want or use any example you want, whether it's jatts forced to marry other jatts or kathris to hindu kathris to preserve the caste, but if it weren't for religion and we lived in secular societies this type of barbarism wouldn't occur. I'm sure there are mormons who coerce their kids to marry other mormons. I'm not sure whether or not it says in the Book of Mormon that it must be that way, but it's because of religion that parents get this idea in their head in the first place.

Can we blame the people or the religion? My take is that religion inhibits free thought and critical thinking. Religion teaches us to be automatons so that people cling to tradition and it's hard for them to break free. I say we blame both religion and human stupidity. Hope that answers your questions (which by the way was a good one).

 

[spnadmin]

Atheist ji

There are two things about your comments that impress me very much.

1. You are probably the first person I have ever encountered that pointed out that it takes religion + human stupidity to wreak havoc on generation after generation of minds and lives. Usually I read that it is all the fault of religion. You have given a fresh slant.
2. You have been able to express a secular point of view without being over-bearing, and without being sarcastic and juvenile. How I like to read that!

Some things you say I agree with. Other things you say I do not agree with. But I sure like the way you said all of it. Wish you the best.

 

[Atheist]

I thank you for your compliments. On the topic of marriage, here's another gem of wisdom from our judeo-christian friends:

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 (New International Version)
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-5491">20</sup> If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-5492">21</sup> she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.


So basically, according to the bible, if your wife is found to not be a virgin when you marry her, you can stone her to death (not only that, you're actually righteous for doing it)!


Wow religion has sure opened my eyes to such wisdom. Anyway, good luck in your endeavors as well

 

[spnadmin]

Atheist ji

Among some Christian cults in the Middle East this still happens. Members of the Jewish faith have moved beyond it. Now we are in the post-Deuteronomy period. And a stoning happened last year as a matter of fact in northern Iraq by members of a Christian/Yezzidi town. That makes your point very well. Stoning has an ancient history that crosses cultures and was even found among ancient Greeks and Egyptians who were neither Jews, nor Muslims, nor Christians. But today, several thousands of years later, Jews do not stone, but we see that Muslims in some countries under Sharia do , others do not, and some cultures that are Christian stone women, and others do not.

Religion + human stupidity.

http://www.aina.org/news/20070425181603.htm

I am adding this link - and will post it soon. This is a synopsis of honor killings among various Christian groups and others.
http://lawiscool.com/2008/01/04/anver-emon-on-honour-killings/

 

[Atheist]

I appreciate your further insight into this matter. Spread the word

 

[Satyaban]

Namaste

The book of Deut. is in the Old Testament of the Bible and the Torah. It is my understanding that Jesus was "The new wine" meaning that the old laws were negated and replaced by his teachings.

There are some pretty extreme Christian sects in this country. Some dance with rattle snakes and drink {censored}nic believing their belief will protect them. Some of get bit and some die but not many.

I have not heard of any stoning or honor killings among Jews or Christians but I guess there are some whose culture is so deep that they carry on.

Peace

 

[Lee]

Atheist Ji,

I like Atheists, I also like Christians, I have many Sikh freinds, some few Hindu and Muslims I can count amonmgst my freinds, but the vast majority of people I know are secular wheter Atheist, or Agnostic, or just of the 'I just have never thought about God one one or the other' types.

The thing that binds all of us together is I know not a single person who I could call 'fundimentalist' or 'fanatical' about their point of view.

We each respect each other enough to not make an issue of these facets of life where we may disagree. I would never try to convince and athesit freind that their world view is wrong and that they should see sense and join with us Sikhs, nor would I ask a Muslim friend to cease his praying to Allah, and instead don the turban and grow his beard even longer.

I dislike intensly thoese people who's world view is so blinkered as to make their sight laser beam straight. The problem with such vision is that you miss out an awful lot of what goes on in the periphary. I normaly just cut these people out of my life and have nowt more to do with them.

What I'm saying my freind is although our views may differ, I certianly respect your desicion to belive or not as you wish, but what I must ask is does it make sense to come onto a religious forum and then ask us to change our minds and join you?

 

[Sukhmani]

this is really interesting debate... i do agree that there are many good relationships based on arranged marriages, maybe in india mainly, but i think one should differentiate between real love of two people walking in life really together and something what can be named a habit or dependency when u just dont have any other choice so u somehow do cope with the situation and u re happy that u re not alone. moreover i know about the cases when a couple was living ok together but after chidren have grown adult the couple found out there is nothing in common anymore... what is astonishing to me is a growing number of divorces among the sikhs... a divorce often means at least two spoilt lives and a dissapointment which can hardly be overcome... so i guess parents should think it over when they really do something good for their children marrying them according to their own ideals... it regards especially to cases when they gave a qualitative education to their son or daughter and then annulate their capacity to make a solid own decision... whether they do so in the name of the future of their beloved descendant or because they re worried about their own future what they sometimes express in such action is lack of respect to their children and doubts about their own upbringing capabilities... my opinion is respect for respect....
of course anything can happen in life and ur own child can turn against u one day but if u have done everything for making a good person of him or her, u shouldnt be worried then... because usually what u gave u will get back in some way....
i understand that there is quite difficult social situation these days everywhere but ensure one's old age through marriege of own children is not right... and to cover one's feelings of insecurity and cultural biases into religion is something what i cannot agree with...
but of course children very very often need advice and help of their parents... and once u brought a child to this world u bear a responsibility but the difference is between advice or help and psychological pressure ... we cant be selfish... and children are full-value beings ... not additions to their parents lives

 

[Lee]

Sukhmani ji,

My parents are divorced, in fact my dad has been, married and divorced three times now, and my mother 4. The woman who brought me up was my fathers second wife, and us kids always knew that when we were all grwon up and left home that they would divorce.

The question is has it ruined our lives? Nope not a bit of it, I rather think that personaly the way I was brought up, and the things that I experianced as a child has made me a better adult than either of the people who brought me up.

For that I can only thank my parents. I am now almost married for 20 years, and I am happy to report that all of my siblings are much the same, we are all still with the spouses we married all of those years ago. Except one of my brothers who whilst not married, and having no intent to has spent 22 years with the same woman.

None of us can see into the future and I am not naive enough to belive that all of those who's parants end up divorced come good in the end, what I an totaly convinced of is that it does far more damage to a child to be brought up in a house where the parents stick together in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' than if they divorced quickly and gave the kids time to get used to mum and dad not living together.

Still we are all differant, so you realise this is just what I think.

 

[Sukhmani]

Lee ji,
i m happy for you that the divorce of your parents didnt make any damage to your personality nor to ur siblings and as u wrote your experience has made u a better adult... i think you re the lucky ones.
of course to live in a marriage just because of children and maybe pretend something is not always the right solution...
it all depends on. case to case.
... what i meant by spoilt life is of course just my own feeling... i personally think it can be very hard for children to see their own father just over the weekends after parent's divorce ... and to enter another marriage after divorce with full faith that "this one will be better" can be difficult as well... not to mention prejudice people bear once u tell u re divorced... i just believe one can fulfill his or her life especially in a high quality relationship and only one's own heart can tell who is the right person for such a relationship... it can be a person chosen by parents but it can be someone else as well... and it is always better to choose that right one for the very first time marriage... that s why it is so sensitive matter... not a matter of parent's "decision in good will" only... that s what i meant...
but it is very good to hear an opinion of a person touched by divorce directly as a child... because of ur insight u have more to say to this topic than me

 

[Lee]

Sukhamani Ji,

I must ask you to forgive the tone of my previous post, I sometimes forget myself and get to preaching!

Yes I understand what you are saying. I think the trick is to decide acuratly when your child becomes her own person.

As a parent myself I am in conflict quite offten, not with my kids you understand but with myself. Of course I want the best for them, but that is on the left hand. On the right hand, well what I hold there is the opinion that they are their own people.

Sure it is my job to look after them, to guide them into becoming good people, to help them get themselves educated, to ensure that they see God in all people and thus treat all with love.

Yet I do not own them, I never have and I never will. I can get them to obey me, 'child it is your turn to do the washing up' for example, but I can't force them into anything, and neither should I.

So when does a child take ownership of their 'Selfs'? Well I would say as soon as they start to exhibit their own identity, which in my reconing is about two weeks old.

 

[Sikh royalist]

could you please tell me where it is written in sikhism that jatt sikhs should marry jatts

dear kanwardeep singh,
thats our tribal law a jatt must marry within his/her tribe.:happykaur:

 

[Lee]

dear kanwardeep singh,
thats our tribal law a jatt must marry within his/her tribe.:happykaur:

I find this quite strange Sikh Royalist ji,

What is a tribe, how does one know what tribe one belongs to?

Does not marrying out of the tribe cause corrupt genetic materials due to not enough veriaty in the genepool?(Do tribe members share the same genes?)

What law takes precidance?

Please understand that I ask these questions due to my own ignorance of the subject, and in no way wish to upset anybody.

 

[Satyaban]

Lee ji

Haven't you contradicted yourself?

"My parents are divorced, in fact my dad has been, married and divorced three times now, and my mother 4. The woman who brought me up was my fathers second wife, and us kids always knew that when we were all grwon up and left home that they would divorce.

The question is has it ruined our lives? Nope not a bit of it, I rather think that personaly the way I was brought up, and the things that I experianced as a child has made me a better adult than either of the people who brought me up."

But you went on to say:

"what I an totaly convinced of is that it does far more damage to a child to be brought up in a house where the parents stick together in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' than if they divorced quickly and gave the kids time to get used to mum and dad not living together."

Am I confused?

Peace

 

[Atheist]

No, it would not make sense to join a religious discussion and expect you to change your mind. But that was not my intention. If my intention were to try to convert you, then I'd be no better than a christian who tells me I'm going to hell (which is what I grew up hearing). The whole point of this forum is for people to share their opinion, and I have shared mine. I am not trying to convert you, but to (as Professor Richard Dawkins would say) raise your consciousness. I know you are not going to change your mind, because as devout as you are now, I have been that devout at some point in my life, so I know exactly (or at least close to) what you're thinking.

I just put in my two cents like everyone else. Just because it differs from your opinion doesn't mean that I must be the one that wants to change everyone. My opinion is simply that forced arranged marriages is a barbaric practice and it is astonishing it still happens. Humanity has failed us and human stupidity has once again triumphed.

 

[Lee]

Lee ji

Haven't you contradicted yourself?

"My parents are divorced, in fact my dad has been, married and divorced three times now, and my mother 4. The woman who brought me up was my fathers second wife, and us kids always knew that when we were all grwon up and left home that they would divorce.

The question is has it ruined our lives? Nope not a bit of it, I rather think that personaly the way I was brought up, and the things that I experianced as a child has made me a better adult than either of the people who brought me up."

But you went on to say:

"what I an totaly convinced of is that it does far more damage to a child to be brought up in a house where the parents stick together in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' than if they divorced quickly and gave the kids time to get used to mum and dad not living together."

Am I confused?

Peace

Hah yes that does seem contradictory, but then as has already been said I think that perhaps I am one of the lucky ones.

I think the think with mine and my siblings situation is that we could tell from a very early age that our mum and dad would divorce as soon as us kids where all grown up and left home. I wonder if that has much bearing on the fact that we all left early.

I was out of the parential home by the time I was 18, the next brother down from me left just before I did and he is two years younger than me so he was 16.

We could see that their relationship was strained, and really I dodn't know when this knowlegde come to me, it seems that I always knew.

As a child it certianly had an effect on me, can you imagine being in a home where mun and dad where constantly argueing? As child you can only think and reason as child does, you cannot comprehend the world as an adult untill you have lived a while as an adult.

It was confusing, it was not nice, all sorts of things run through the head of a child that realises that his parents are not in love.

We are the product of our upbringing, it seeps into our very being, the things that happen to us in our childhood have a very reall effect on us which carry on into adult life.

I'm 41 years old now, and I can (and do)look back on my childhood and lots of time that ephieny happens, that 'Aha!' momnet, and I realise, that is why I think like this, or that is why this is a big deal for me and this is not.

Was I damaged as a child by my upbringing? Ohh certianly I was, now as an adult though I can see certian things, I have now the ability to take stock and come to certian understandings.

I am the man I am now because of my upbringing, but also because of the choices I have made, I am indeed stronger for it, but it could well be differant for me, as it is for lots of others.

I have said before in another post here, a while back, that everything you say, every action you take has an effect on those around you. I truely belive this and now use my life to watch how I treat people.

Others may well be differant from me. It is like alchemy , the rearing of a child, so much goes into and really we have little idea what sort of creature that mixture will create.