FreeWill As Per Gurbani

[Navdeep88]

Sinister Ji,

this is just a comment on your approach to the subject. and ive found it prevalent in academia in general. so here goes:

the answer you provide, though i dont believe is wrong, is a partial answer. it should be obvious from the title of this thread that i was looking for some answers (discussion) from gurbani, and if not, then from the essence of it.and i found tejwant singh jis answer sufficient.

i think you took what i was saying out of context, of what i mean by "divine will". im not saying that in every little decision one makes, you stop and look at it as god does this or god does that. i never made the claim that god could be understood, in fact, i said the opposite. but there is something that presides over everything you do, think, and that will guide you in every single decision. i believe that our very personalities, our abilities are designed so uniquely, that you cannot perform in any other way than you are most naturally inclined. that soul is a unique part of self that you can FEEL subside, when you do something that is UN-YOU (so free will is bound to who you are, its bound to your soul).
all this stuff about evolutionay theory, i dont deny that its right, but ive often found that in some ways if you rely on science alone, it tries to pull human beings back to describe them as animals. in my experience, intellect alone is a dry brutal thing. it is concerned with being right. and being right is not the same as what is true. what is right today, can be wrong tommorow, it is conditional, and it is temparary. what is true, simply is, and always will be.

basically, that what im saying.

 

[Lee]

Navdeep ji,

Welcome here, I hope you both enjoy it and find it usefull.

My tupence worth.

Guru ji tells us:

'O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.Everyone is subject to his Command; no one is beyond His Command.O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. '

Context as always is king here. And we must ask ourselves why in this translation does the phrase 'obey the Hukam of His Command' appear, if Hukham mean command it makes little sense. Until that is we take context into account.

Hukham as Narayanjot ji tells us has multiple meanings. Obey, command, will.

So if a leaf cannot move unless by his Hukham which meaning are we talking?

I would humbly suggest that by his command, or perhaps even word(let there be light), the leaf was created, and the wind that stirs the leaf too. So it is easy then to understand that by his command creation started and so if not for his command no action can take place.

As to free will, I certianly belive that we have this, it is one of our most important gifts given from God in love. The freedom to choose to use our own will or to surrender that in favour of Gods will. This is I belive at the heart of all religion.


Sorry my freind I went slightly off there, I hope you garner my meaning though, if not please do get back to me.

 

[Sinister]

in my experience, intellect alone is a dry brutal thing. it is concerned with being right. and being right is not the same as what is true. what is right today, can be wrong tommorow, it is conditional, and it is temparary. what is true, simply is, and always will be.

question for you:
does the existance of truth require belief?

for the internalist....what is right today will always remain right for that day and what is right tommorrow will be right tomorrow. a justified true belief is something that is constructed FOR a time, FROM not only observation but also taste, feeling and an opinion. Intellect is just consciousness of yourself/surroundings, it is mind and it is ego. A justified true belief changes by increasing awareness through observation. (learning, deductive and inductive thought)

There is a natural trend I have seen from experience that if you increase awareness you naturally shun ego because you come to the realization that all things are connected. intellect can be dry and brutal if you channel it in the opposite direction...using it exclusively for constructing barriers.

that is what the religions of the east usually wish to inhibit. Hukam...is just that ... an idea that helps connect everyone to everything (including humans to nature).

so... a person might argue free will strengthens ego of an individual by constructing a barrier between yourself and god. but is that really the case?

the belief in free will may not seem to bring you closer to god...but believing in the concept gives you the oppurtunity to be 'god-like'. and no other experienced thought can bring you closer than that.

 

[Navdeep88]

Sinister ji,

Allow me to elaborate on "What is true, simply is, and always will be."
"A word is dead once it is said, some say. I say it just begins to live that day."...read that a couple of years ago....and here it seems to apply...of course the existence of truth requires belief!..im not saying that faith, our understanding of truth is stagnant, but truth itself, simply is, and will always be beyond ourselves. A justified true belief changes by increasing awareness through observation. I agree. What we may catch of it, the glimpse, is enough to want, hope for more of it. There is no cure for love, but to love some more. Of course our perspective of it will ALTER, we'll see different hues, different pieces of it but I think once you accept its existence, your not going to pull a dr.jekyl/hyde and say there is nothing beyond yourself.... you are right about the use of intellect to construct barriers...and i also think what you say about its proper use makes sense... Our understanding of Truth is subject to change, to GROWTH, thats the whole concept of being a sikh right? to be a "leaner" always, that we will never know enough, yet what is given to us is enough in itself for that time. but come tommorow, there will be more of the same, yet in a different color, different feeling, but what is under it is the same feeling...it still stems from the same truth. what you say about free will is beginning to make sense.

basically (couldnt help it...hehe), i agree with what you've said....

 

[Navdeep88]

"ONCE YOU ACCEPT ITS EXISTENCE"...i suppose it is a matter of free will, at the beginning....

 

[Tejwant Singh]

There is no such thing as absolute Truth as propagated by the 3 Semitic Religions and other faiths but Truth is absolute for that moment according to the first pauri of Jap. For example new planets are being formed and destroyed everyday, new islands are being formed and many old ones are submerging etc. etc. One can go on and on.

Let me put it in another way. Truth is like the uncut diamond on which the time does its lapidary by creating facets.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Lee]

question for you:
does the existance of truth require belief?

for the internalist....what is right today will always remain right for that day and what is right tommorrow will be right tomorrow. a justified true belief is something that is constructed FOR a time, FROM not only observation but also taste, feeling and an opinion. Intellect is just consciousness of yourself/surroundings, it is mind and it is ego. A justified true belief changes by increasing awareness through observation. (learning, deductive and inductive thought)

There is a natural trend I have seen from experience that if you increase awareness you naturally shun ego because you come to the realization that all things are connected. intellect can be dry and brutal if you channel it in the opposite direction...using it exclusively for constructing barriers.

that is what the religions of the east usually wish to inhibit. Hukam...is just that ... an idea that helps connect everyone to everything (including humans to nature).

so... a person might argue free will strengthens ego of an individual by constructing a barrier between yourself and god. but is that really the case?

the belief in free will may not seem to bring you closer to god...but believing in the concept gives you the oppurtunity to be 'god-like'. and no other experienced thought can bring you closer than that.

Sinister ji,

In answer to your queston, yes the existance of truth does require belief.

Let me explain that. When it comes to belife then I thing we really have very little choice. We can choose how we act, we can choose what we say, but belief is a differant matter.

I belive (for example) the the Earth revolves around the Sun. I have not performed any experimentation of my own to reach this conclusion, so I must therefore belive that the results of those who have done so is the truth of the matter. Now having put my faith in the words of these people if you where to ask me to choose to belive any view that is contrary to this fact, then I find that I simpy cannot.

Ahhhaaa I hear you mutter, what of people who do change their minds, what of those who once belived in the existance of a creator God and now do not, for example, or indeed the other way around?

It is a simple matter of data. The more data you have on any given subject the more connections and eventualy epithanies the mind makes. There is the illusion that one changes their mind, but it is illusion.

 

[Navdeep88]

for anyone still interested in this topic...just came across "River Rise" by India Irie...beautiful song!

 

[curious seeker]

why is it looking into the abyss?...this is where the fun starts. can free will be explained mathematically?

anywhere where the outcome of an action approaches a -->100% reliability of certain outcome is where free will does not exist. (these limitations are determined through repetitive experience)

according to this, only physical laws fall into the godly restrictions where free will cannot be applied.

if we have no conscious understanding of physical laws then we are truly free to chose...but then existence itself is not understandable.


that said:

Free Will & Determinism
"Consciousness seems to be intimately and inescapably tied to the perception of the passage of time, and indeed, the idea that the past is fixed and perfectly deterministic, and that the future is unknowable. This fits well, because if the future were predetermined, then there'd be no free will, and no point in the perception of the passage of time."

considering we perceive the passage of time...free will exists.

Hello Sinister! (Great handle BTW)

I don't know if you will read this, since time has passed since you posted, but I believe that you are right to an extent. First free will is a constant experience, we all know that before we do any thing we decide to do it, that is, we will it. We have freedom of what to do and not to do, etc. However free will IS limited.

Physical laws limits us, accidents of birth and health, limit us. The consequences of our actions (karma) and the actions of others, limit us. Society limits us, beliefs limit us, the very temporality and fragility of life, limits us and so on and so forth. We have no control over many things, in fact we have very little or no control over most of the truly large events of our lives.

But the apparent tension in Sikhism between free will, limited or not, and the Perfect Will Of God is, IMO; really a mirage, simply maya and semantics. GOD IS ... His will therefore IS. What IS, exists on account of God and His will Thus, if we have free will, (or anything else) is because of His Will. Thus HIS WILL is that we have limited Free Will.

But there is more! His will must be that we realize He IS, because, He has endowed with a critically thinking mind and curiosity, the thirst for TRUTH, and He IS TRUTH! Since we cannot even hope to understand fully the Transcendent Ek Ong Kaar, we can only EXPERIENCE the fact that He IS because He has pervaded, by His created act, His Naam (Name or Essence) into everything.

We can only experience the Naam if we put away falsehood , unreality, what IS not that is error, and ignorance in conception, and practice in regards to what is real. That is in regrds to Him. This, in my limited understanding, is what Sikhi call: Maya, illusion, false attachment, mirage, etc . In order to put away all these things, we must put our free will , our critical mind , our desires, hopes, all that we have acquired away from the Realization that He IS, under the Hukam, that is, under the command of His Perfect Will.

This allows us to control, not eliminate, free will, mind desire etc. It is then that we can start practicing to True Path, the Sikhi path and as we perfect this practice, we perfect our experience of the Naam and we can then be Truly Khalsa, pure, we can share the Divine Nectar and attain Liberation

This my very limited understanding of Sikhism and Fee Will. I am just a student a would be Sikh (In the sense of disciple) perhaps, but as I attempt reach even to that, I have to learn and understand far more.
May I be granted the Grace to achieve unto more understanding!

Curious

 

[japjisahib04]

Folllowing is the extract regarding Hukam from the article of Harinder Singh Mehboob:

iek pwsy qW aus ƒ Awpxy Aml ivc XkIn dI pRblqw huMdI hY ikauNik Aml jW aus dy pwp-puMnW dw irSqw aus hukm nwl hY ijs dy kwrn auh ies dunIAW ivc AwieAw Aqy ijs dy kwrn auh ies dunIAW iv`coN
cilAw jwvygw[ dUjy pwsy aus ƒ ieh Aml suxI-suxweI, i^Awl iv`coN GVI geI Aqy vkq dy Gyry ivc vlI hoeI s`cweI qoN aucyrI Aqy ikqy izAwdw kImqI vsqU pRq`K ho jWdw hY:

puMnI pwpI AwKxu nwih] kir kir krxw iliK lY jwhu]
Awpy bIij Awpy hI Kwhu] nwnk hukmI Awvhu jwhu] (pMnw 4)

jy mnu`K hukm dy nwl AwieAw hY Aqy hukm dy ADIn hI cilAw jwxw hY qW sp`St hY ik aus dy Aml dw s&r aus dy Awaux qoN lY ky jwx qk PYilAw hoieAw hY[ aus dw krq`v vkqI nhIN[ aus ny AwpxIAW &slW Dur dy hukm nwl bIjIAW hn[ jy auh AwpxI &sl Awp hI v`Fdw hY qW ies dw mqlb ieh hoieAw ik Aml dI &sl muqwbk hI auh Awpxy s&r ivc hukm dw dIdwr kr irhw hY[

 

[japjisahib04]

Narayanjot Kaur Ji

Kindly see now it is readable.

Folllowing is the extract regarding Hukam from the article of Harinder Singh Mehboob:

iek pwsy qW aus ƒ Awpxy Aml ivc XkIn dI pRblqw huMdI hY ikauNik Aml jW aus dy pwp-puMnW dw irSqw aus hukm nwl hY ijs dy kwrn auh ies dunIAW ivc AwieAw Aqy ijs dy kwrn auh ies dunIAW iv`coN
cilAw jwvygw[ dUjy pwsy aus ƒ ieh Aml suxI-suxweI, i^Awl iv`coN GVI geI Aqy vkq dy Gyry ivc vlI hoeI s`cweI qoN aucyrI Aqy ikqy izAwdw kImqI vsqU pRq`K ho jWdw hY:

puMnI pwpI AwKxu nwih] kir kir krxw iliK lY jwhu]
Awpy bIij Awpy hI Kwhu] nwnk hukmI Awvhu jwhu] (pMnw 4)

jy mnu`K hukm dy nwl AwieAw hY Aqy hukm dy ADIn hI cilAw jwxw hY qW sp`St hY ik aus dy Aml dw s&r aus dy Awaux qoN lY ky jwx qk PYilAw hoieAw hY[ aus dw krq`v vkqI nhIN[ aus ny AwpxIAW &slW Dur dy hukm nwl bIjIAW hn[ jy auh AwpxI &sl Awp hI v`Fdw hY qW ies dw mqlb ieh hoieAw ik Aml dI &sl muqwbk hI auh Awpxy s&r ivc hukm dw dIdwr kr irhw hY[