Controversial God's Almightyness Versus Evil

[Archived_member15]

If Ik Onkar is everything, isn't it also nothing?

Vouthon ji says that 'evil' is the absence of good, that darkness is the absence of light and the coldness the absence of heat but is the 'absence' not something in itself? The presence of nothingness? And isn't it still all within Creation?

A great and perceptive question brother/sister Ishna :sippingcoffeemunda:

Indeed evil is the absence of good, and God did not cause nor create evil; it is rather a lack or deficiency of his created natural order - however he is just as much present in evil acts and the people committing them as he is anywhere. There is no duality. God is One. That does not mean only that he is a Single Being but rather that he is Existence Itself, Being Itself, ISNESS. So yes God is present in the absence of good.


"...God presents himself in the inmost depths of my soul. I understand not only that he is present, but also how he is present. I have seen the One who is, and how He is the Being of all creatures. God is present in everything that exists, in a devil and a good angel, in heaven and hell, in good deeds and in adultery and murder, in the beautiful and the ugly. Therfore, while I am in this Truth, I take as much delight in seeing and understanding his presence in a devil and the act of adultery as I do in an angel and a good deed. The world is pregnant with God...He who loves with not only a part of himself, but the whole, transforms himself into the thing beloved..."

- Blessed Angela of Foligna (c. 1248 – 1309), Catholic mystic


The whole point, nonetheless, is that evil is not a thing; it does not actually exist. It is not even nothingness - which means not being anything created - but it is actually not real. There is no evil. Evil acts are acts where goodness is absent. By this I do not mean nothingness, but rather that it is a person who lacks what is truly proper to him and God-given, to be good.

Is God in darkness? Surely, but he did not create darkness. He created light, and he created space, and darkness is a space which lacks light, and so the human eye perceives it as a thing, when it is in fact not real.

So God is fully present in the space which lacks light but he is not present in darkness as a concept because darkness is a human seeing that space which lacks light and wrongly perceiving it as a thing in opposition to light when it is in fact only a space lacking light.

Darkness is not a creation of God but a subjective human experience of the lack of light in a place. In the same way, evil is the subjective human experience of a lack of good in a person or situation, the good being natural and God-created just like light.

The human mind misunderstands this and thinks that there is a thing called darkness which is the opposite from light, just like the colours white and black, and so the erroneous belief in "Dualism" is born - Light vs Darkness, Good God vs Bad God (devil), rather than perceiving the underlying unity of all reality in God, in Oneness, in wholeness.

Evil is the lack of the good created by God, just as darkness is the lack of light created by God, and humans perceive this lack as "real" when it does not actually exist. Evil is only a privation (lack, absence) in that which is good and thus evil is not created by God. Evil is only privatio boni or an absence of good such as in discord, injustice, and loss of life or of liberty

We can say that God created the ability for darkness to be perceived by humans in that he created space and light, which means that lack of light in a place will appear as darkness to sensible beings. However he did not actually create darkness.

In the same way we can say that God created the ability for evil to be perceived by humans in that he created goodness and freedom of volition in humans, so that they can freely return his love, and if humans lack the goodness proper to them through their "Me" becoming disengaged from their God given "I" (to use brother ambarsaria's excellent phrasing) then they perceive this self-will and rejection of God's will as "evil".

God thus created the potentiality of darkness being perceived by humans, and the potentiality of evil being perceived by humans but he did not create evil or darkness in themselves because these are not real created 'things' but the lack of real created things in space-time and as perceived within space-time by human minds.

 

[Archived_member15]

It was the Catholic theologian and mystic Augustine who thought up the doctrine of evil as the absence of good, in the fifth century.


"...And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils—that is, privations of the good which we call health—are accidents. Just in the same way, what are called vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good. And when they are cured, they are not transferred elsewhere: when they cease to exist in the healthy soul, they cannot exist anywhere else..."

—St. Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430), <CITE>Enchiridion of Augustine, Chapter 11: What is called Evil in the Universe is But the Absence of Good<SUP id=cite_ref-_3-0 class=reference>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatio_boni#cite_note--3</SUP></CITE>

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

VOUTHON Ji,
My understanding of the word Duality is for the character of SINGULAR GOD.
It is absolutly clear there is ONE GOD only.
I refer to the character of this SINGULAR GOD as Duality.Two opposite characteristics
existing together within ONE is Duality.
In this reference if SINGULAR GOD is said to be existing everywhere so is the Duality.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

An unwavering, rock solid faith despite doubt and questioning is a fruitful and bring-peace faith, while a simplistic faith might be a source of blindness,conflicts and stagnation at all levels.

Thanks.

Well I dont make out your references for Rock Solid Faith and Simplistic Faith but your message is greatly appreciable
.I look forward a bit more elaboration of the contexts.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[TruthSatnaam]

Pleasure and Pain viewed seperately= Duality.

Light and dark viewed seperately= Duality.


In Gubani we are told that there is none other than God and that all occurs according to His command and to His hukam.

We are asked to Give Our Heads(100% surrender- not 90% for that is duality)- in giving our heads, we give up our ego i.e mind i.e logic which is tied down by the shackles of maya- it cannot comprehend the Truth reality. Giving up our heads also means applying Gurbani fully to our lives- as Gurbani is the Guru.

In giving up our mind(ego), we give up the 5 thieves that come with it, we live by our hearts(which is also God's heart i.e the entire creation and beyond- God is one inifinite, All loving Hirda) and maya ceases to exist for us as it once did.

Our hirda begins to contemplate, discover and experience the Truth that we cannot experience just by reading about it- Gurbani must actually be applied and lived (we live it throughout natural life) to be experienced.

When we do this, we become Gurbani- in experiencing the Truth, our questions and endless pondering and arguing goes out of the window, for the words of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Truth principles which we find in other religions begin to make complete sense- the discoveries of Gurbani become our own.

Accept that God is one, that He is the Angel and the Devil- that this is All just His khel... live the Truth throughout your life- don't tell a lie, not even a white lie, Speak Truth, Serve Truth, Deliver Truth, Die Truth.

Live the Truth that He has no image- that He is beyond the 6 senses, that His reality(Truth) is Nothingness(except his Frequency of Truth)- that He is All pervading and beyond logic.

Relax and listen to the symbolic reflection(for in reality- even sound is false) of the Nothingness/Silence- the Anhad naad, the primal sound. Let samadhi take you over- for it is then that we begin to understand creation around us without worldly pressures. See God everywhere, talk to Him, tell him that you see Him- "God, bas tuhee tu".

God bless you to live the Truth.

Satnaam Ji

 

[Jeos]

Finally someone who REALLY said something...SOME OF YOUR WORDS were a real lightning...

Thank you

 

[Luckysingh]

Pleasure and Pain viewed seperately= Duality.

Light and dark viewed seperately= Duality.


In Gubani we are told that there is none other than God and that all occurs according to His command and to His hukam.

We are asked to Give Our Heads(100% surrender- not 90% for that is duality)- in giving our heads, we give up our ego i.e mind i.e logic which is tied down by the shackles of maya- it cannot comprehend the Truth reality. Giving up our heads also means applying Gurbani fully to our lives- as Gurbani is the Guru.

In giving up our mind(ego), we give up the 5 thieves that come with it, we live by our hearts(which is also God's heart i.e the entire creation and beyond- God is one inifinite, All loving Hirda) and maya ceases to exist for us as it once did.

Our hirda begins to contemplate, discover and experience the Truth that we cannot experience just by reading about it- Gurbani must actually be applied and lived (we live it throughout natural life) to be experienced.

When we do this, we become Gurbani- in experiencing the Truth, our questions and endless pondering and arguing goes out of the window, for the words of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Truth principles which we find in other religions begin to make complete sense- the discoveries of Gurbani become our own.

Accept that God is one, that He is the Angel and the Devil- that this is All just His khel... live the Truth throughout your life- don't tell a lie, not even a white lie, Speak Truth, Serve Truth, Deliver Truth, Die Truth.

Live the Truth that He has no image- that He is beyond the 6 senses, that His reality(Truth) is Nothingness(except his Frequency of Truth)- that He is All pervading and beyond logic.

Relax and listen to the symbolic reflection(for in reality- even sound is false) of the Nothingness/Silence- the Anhad naad, the primal sound. Let samadhi take you over- for it is then that we begin to understand creation around us without worldly pressures. See God everywhere, talk to Him, tell him that you see Him- "God, bas tuhee tu".

God bless you to live the Truth.

Satnaam Ji

Truthsatnaam ji,
A very good post indeed that highlights this importance of duality.

When we see the duality in all things existing and around us such as day/night, good/evil, black/white, wet/dry, land/water, clouds/rain, sun/moon, right/wrong .. ....etc..etc...
Also noting the fact that at any given time as the earth is rotating around the sun then half receives light and heat and the other half doesn't.
This is the day/night in different parts of the world. Note that this is balanced all the time.
THIS BALANCING OF DUALITY is what keeps the universe held and going.

I saw your post the other day, but I didn't pay too much attention until the thought of this duality came to me and I rememered this post.

This BALANCE is important in the whole of creation. Going from very large matter in the universe to microscopic cells, we can see even a single cell plays duality. It will take things in as in feeding and then give small amounts of chemicals and energy out. You have processes that are called intracellular (ie. inside the cell) and extracellular (outside of the cell)
To the simple plant that takes in our carbon dioxide from our breathes and gives out oxygen in return for us to breathe in.

Infact every organ of our body gets from other organs and in turn supplies other organs or parts. These duality fuctions are endless.
I can now see and realise that the entire universe and creation has this operating all the time.

The duality within us is a little more complicated. We have our physical needs and also spiritual/mind/mental.
For all the god within us that trys to surface, we also have vices and evils that try to knock it back down.

QUESTION IS- WHY would creator makes us individuals and give us these negative weaknesses that try to overpower the truth within us.??

Is it all about keeping us balanced or is it about HOW well we balance ourselves to be in alignment with the rest of the universe and creation that is already balanced.???

It's funny because I have never thought of these questions before, but they came to me whilst I was doing simran this morning.

The more we question it, the more interesting our purpose of life keeps becoming.

The Ultimate Duality I think is that the Lord gives us this ABILITY to control our own physical and spiritual/mental. But our mind (mann) on the other hand tends to wander in its own direction, believing it knows best.
The Granth Sahib ji tells us repeatedly to gain control of this mind or mann and steer it in the right direction.
What is the right direction, one may ask ?
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji explains from start to finish what the direction is.
Seems easy, but it takes a lot of effort. You see the ability given to us is more interested in doing things in the wrong direction.
Until we level and conquer this duality out by using the ability for the one thing in the one and only direction, until then we remain out of touch and frequency or consonance with creation, as the rest of creation is balanced in its duality.

So we come and go whilst the balanced duality around us continues.
Our duality is always unbalanced and we have to work at it to be aligned with the universe.


Waheguru

 

[Randip Singh]

Hello,

God-Allah-Yahvé- thats ok as the different names of God can be easily explained trough the different geographical/historical & cultural contexts but I have doubts about our only and unic God being Almighty...look at all the evil and suffering in this evil-heavy world. And pls do not argue by saying like the Sufis that this is a question of plan of consciousness. See all those innocents, all those CHILDREN dying of hunger every single day - dont you think that our "free-will" is going to far (or perhaps our free-will isn't so free as it seems..) ? To me its "simple": There is Ahura-Mazda (or God-Allah-Yahvé) but there is Ariman too (Lucifer/Chaos) and the battle between both is a cosmic and titanic one. And He might not win without OUR EFFORT...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
No source of wisdom on the Universe can work this problematic out in a satisfactory way, not even reincarnation.
P.S.- I am not zoroastrian.

Sikhism does not believe in the Semetic concepts of Good Vs Evil. i.e. Devil vs God.

In Sikhi we say that those who dwell in the 5 thieves are capable of doing bad things. In order to combat the 5 thieves we have to become Godwilled.

So Sikhism basically believe in those those people that are Selfwilled and those that are Godwilled i.e. Manmookh vs Gurmookh.

 

[TruthSatnaam]

Satnaam Ji

When we see the duality in all things existing and around us such as day/night, good/evil, black/white, wet/dry, land/water, clouds/rain, sun/moon, right/wrong .. ....etc..etc...

Also noting the fact that at any given time as the earth is rotating around the sun then half receives light and heat and the other half doesn't.
This is the day/night in different parts of the world. Note that this is balanced all the time.
THIS BALANCING OF DUALITY is what keeps the universe held and going.

^Great

I saw your post the other day, but I didn't pay too much attention until the thought of this duality came to me and I rememered this post.

This BALANCE is important in the whole of creation. Going from very large matter in the universe to microscopic cells, we can see even a single cell plays duality. It will take things in as in feeding and then give small amounts of chemicals and energy out. You have processes that are called intracellular (ie. inside the cell) and extracellular (outside of the cell)
To the simple plant that takes in our carbon dioxide from our breathes and gives out oxygen in return for us to breathe in.

This is also symbolic of the intertwining of pleasure and pain- the plants love taking in negativity and turning it into positivity(see pain as pleasure)

Infact every organ of our body gets from other organs and in turn supplies other organs or parts. These duality fuctions are endless.
I can now see and realise that the entire universe and creation has this operating all the time.


The duality within us is a little more complicated. We have our physical needs and also spiritual/mind/mental.

Our physical needs stem from the mind- there are yogis out there who do not eat or sleep... We are able to detach from physical reality by silencing the mind and going within the heart(deep samadhi/ Silence- sunn Klaa)

For all the god within us that trys to surface, we also have vices and evils that try to knock it back down.

Great- but God is All pervading- this is just his Gurprasadi Khel- He's dressed up in different costumes. When this Simple Truth is applied- maya(5 thieves) finds her death- for the realisation that maya is God in Costume overrides her power. Truth is always Over All

QUESTION IS- WHY would creator makes us individuals and give us these negative weaknesses that try to overpower the truth within us.??

Is it all about keeping us balanced or is it about HOW well we balance ourselves to be in alignment with the rest of the universe and creation that is already balanced.???

Truth is the master. God discovered Truth(Truth is a psychology- it always exists, it just needs to be found and applied) after many ages of contemplation and self assessment. He has given us the oppertunity to do the same in a fraction of the time.

He lived Truth and became it- He lives it to this day- if he stopped, the whole game would shut down, as we are living in His dream- through His discovery.
He wished to share His discovery with another- this is the Love(His love for us) that caused this khel to come into being..


The answer to your question is both, He feeds us as much dukh and sukh as we deserve(karma- to keep the Balance)until we actually Become the realised Balance(see dukh and sukh as God- live in Truth)-When we opt out of the game of pleasure and pain-we become weightless in the balance- we no longer contribute to the dukh and sukh in the universe- we no longer weigh it down. There are many aspects to this(it needs to be experienced to understand truly).

The universe and beyond is God, so of course it is balanced like He is- we become free like Him when we live in Truth aswell.


It's funny because I have never thought of these questions before, but they came to me whilst I was doing simran this morning.

The more we question it, the more interesting our purpose of life keeps becoming.

The Ultimate Duality I think is that the Lord gives us this ABILITY to control our own physical and spiritual/mental. But our mind (mann) on the other hand tends to wander in its own direction, believing it knows best.

This is a Great Duality- The gift He gives us is the Gyan of Truth. It is Truth application vs love of maya(ignorance/illusion) where even 1% practice of maya and 99% Truth practice is duality.

Maya is One, to truly get rid of Her hold on us, we must recognise this- or she'll keep pouring through the 1% that we are still attached to- to be truly rid of her, we must rid ourselves of every piece of her

The Granth Sahib ji tells us repeatedly to gain control of this mind or mann and steer it in the right direction.
What is the right direction, one may ask ?
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji explains from start to finish what the direction is.
Seems easy, but it takes a lot of effort. You see the ability given to us is more interested in doing things in the wrong direction.
Until we level and conquer this duality out by using the ability for the one thing in the one and only direction, until then we remain out of touch and frequency or consonance with creation, as the rest of creation is balanced in its duality.

Beautiful...Creation is balanced in the Gyan of Truth-and when we get rid of the Bulls*it, we realise that we are not only balanced like it- We Are It and it is us- everything, everywhere is Truth- is God- is Nothing- and so are We.

So we come and go whilst the balanced duality around us continues.
Our duality is always unbalanced and we have to work at it to be aligned with the universe.

Great! In reality we are really balanced already-for we are God it is just our mind/ego/illusion of existance of self that is not balanced. This janam is simply a Test world- It is all a Game to discover Truth. It truly is beyond Logic...


God Bless you

Satnaam Ji

 

[findingmyway]

My understanding is that problems in the world are related to weaknesses in human beings. We have free will but don't always choose the good way. However, human beings are very bad at taking responsibility for their actions and love to absolve themselves by blaming God.

This concept is explored in more detail here
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/35701-worst-places-in-the-world-woman.html

 

[TruthSatnaam]

Satnaam Ji

My understanding is that problems in the world are related to weaknesses in human beings. We have free will

Although we are gifted free will- All is still hukam. This gyan is beyond logic- to understand it, you need to experience it.

Once we accept that all is hukam and recognise the messages and lessons he's teaching us(after opening our hearts to learn as and when He wills it- not on our own terms(as there are no wants or bargaining in this game and ego is not called for))- we flow whichever way He wants us to..

but don't always choose the good way. However, human beings are very bad at taking responsibility for their actions and love to absolve themselves by blaming God.

When we don't accept hukam- the mind isn't going to become silenced

(the silence is Truth- it is our True origin- this journey is backwards- projecting back from the 3rd energy(our world) to the second, to the 1st(the silence of Nothingness aka the Truth)(Guru Nanak Ji calls these the 3 worlds))

- as we're constantly plotting, scheming and desiring. In ego, we preconcieve outcomes to situations and have expectations- this is not respecting God's will and trying to confine God to a single outcome.

The biggest fault human beings have is not accepting hukam- and reacting to bad karams in maya(5 thieves including anger). But even then, it was all predestined as Hukam- it is all deserved- as we sow so we reap and humans are led astray by God as He wills it.

If this doesn't make sense, it means we're using logic, and logic(ego/mind/identity aka the root of the 5 thieves) is not called for in bhagti. The heart speaks in bhagti- not the mind which is confined and limited to maya. The heart is the doorway to God. If you want the Truth, practice it's throughout daily life and meditate on it, and you'll experience it(the discoveries will become your own- the gyan comes and is experienced from within).

We are asked to accept God's will for a reason- we don't know anything- He is the only knower. Until we accept without reacting in maya- we cannot move forward on this path of Truth.

God bless you

 

[Jeos]

I must confess that I was not expecting that the lightning that broke trough my ego darkness would spout from a prakriti-being as any woman is... calm down i am joking (laughs) ! - and good humor is vital when it comes to the pursuit of truth...

STILL...the fhikr ( sufi background...) that is the channeled intellectual meditation about the One God (call it Brahman, Waheguru, Allah or other) remains useful for approaching God.
Otherwise it is best to devote themselves to Zen bouddhisme...!

My pleasure

 

[TruthSatnaam]

Satnaam Ji

God bless you always(Jeos)!