Guru

[prakash.s.bagga]

ISHNA Ji,

You have really done an highly appreciable job.Now any one can verify the grammer of any word/words .Really wonderful contribution for the Sangat.
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ishna]

Kindly see Ang 1401.

Can someone please explain what the significance is of ਗੁਰੂ and ਗੁਰੁ:

ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
गुरू गुरु गुरु करहु गुरू हरि पाईऐ ॥
Gurū gur gur karahu gurū har pā▫ī▫ai.
Chant Guru, Guru, Guru; through the Guru, the Lord is obtained.
​

Why have two different versions of the word 'Guru' been used?

And later on the same Ang, we find three different versions of the word Guru in one tuk:

ਗੁਰੁ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਆ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
गुरु जहाजु खेवटु गुरू गुर बिनु तरिआ न कोइ ॥
Gur jahāj kẖevat gurū gur bin ṯari▫ā na ko▫e.
The Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Boatman. Without the Guru, no one can cross over.
​

Can someone tell me what effect of ੁ, ੂ and absence of vowel sign indicates?

Thanks.

Ishna

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

ਗੁਰੁ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਗੁਰੂ

While specifying the boat, the word ਗੁਰੁ has been used, while ਗੁਰੂ has been used for the boatman. Maybe when we realize that Guru can guide us, as Guru is Treasure of all Knowledge and Truth, it is written as ਗੁਰੁ. And when we let Guru guide us (and leave the mind behind) e.g. Guru becomes the Boatman, Guru is written as ਗੁਰੂ. Probably something to do with Sat and Satya in Sanskrit and Hindi. It is some hidden poetic message in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It is just a hypothesis and must be researched if it's true for all usage.

Another example:

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥

Maybe Gur means knowing that Guru exists and Guroo means understanding Guru after mering your Soul (Rooh) with His Message. It is probably a way of saying that knowing Guru is continuous and ever learning curve, and Sikh should not stop at one point. Like Guru may disperse the Darkness, but the things you see in His Light, you don't understand them either. So you go back to Guru.

 

[Ambarsaria]

ਗੁਰੁ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਗੁਰੂ

While specifying the boat, the word ਗੁਰੁ has been used, while ਗੁਰੂ has been used for the boatman. Maybe when we realize that Guru can guide us, as Guru is Treasure of all Knowledge and Truth, it is written as ਗੁਰੁ. And when we let Guru guide us (and leave the mind behind) e.g. Guru becomes the Boatman, Guru is written as ਗੁਰੂ. Probably something to do with Sat and Satya in Sanskrit and Hindi. It is some hidden poetic message in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It is just a hypothesis and must be researched if it's true for all usage.

Another example:

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥

Maybe Gur means knowing that Guru exists and Guroo means understanding Guru after mering your Soul (Rooh) with His Message. It is probably a way of saying that knowing Guru is continuous and ever learning curve, and Sikh should not stop at one point. Like Guru may disperse the Darkness, but the things you see in His Light, you don't understand them either. So you go back to Guru.

Kanwaljit Singh ji thank you for your post.

Kanwaljit Singh ji and Ishna ji (don't worry I will try to help with Punjabi as much as I can as I believe you are still catching up in this area), this aspect is discussed in Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Vyakaran but requires further studying.

ਗੁਰ (gur)-------> One Creator

ਗੁਰੁ (Gurô)-----> Of one creator; By one creator; Through one creator

ਗੁਰੂ (gurū) -----> The teacher of one creator

I stand corrected but I am researching this comprehensively for all words which have this as a syllabic part.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

We can find that these three words have not been differentiated in any of english translitration.So this can make understanding of gurbani somewhat difficult and incorrect.Therefore it is important how to depict these three words in english script.

I think it would be equally important to know the grammer of these three words for getting correct reference meanings of these words.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It would be nice of you to give the source any english translitration wherein these three words are depicted as shown by your goodself.This would be a great help for me to follow this source of translitration.,With thanks,
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It would be nice of you to give the source any english translitration wherein these three words are depicted as shown by your goodself.This would be a great help for me to follow this source of translitration.,With thanks,
Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash.s.bagga ji what your goodself needs? The pronunciation/phonetics or the translation from Punjabi to English.

The pronunciation are from Kulbir Thind's efforts at srigranth.org except for the following which I did as I don't believe it is done right in there,

ਗੁਰੁ (Gurô)

In terms of the Punjabi to English, the source is within me based on my learning and I am sure it is based on numerous readings and could be from some specific work but I don't recall. When I do I will post if it is important to you.

What is your translation or you believe these cannot be translated or can only be translated to Prabh/Prabhu as appropriate? I don't feel any need to do that myself. I will actually translate Prabh/Prabhu to Gur/Guru and not the other way around.

Sat Sri Akal.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,Thanks for your efforts I look forward to that.
In the mean time I may give you one information that in the translitration given in
Gurbani.search here I find the use of word GuR with Dulaekad matra as GoRoo.I dont know how you would like this.This is not my own thought pronunciation that is what i like to inform you my source for this.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Prakash.s.bagga ji I don't see GoRoo anywhere as you state in the following,

Gurbani.search here I find the use of word GuR with Dulaekad matra as GoRoo.

I only seen the following,

ਗੁਰ (gur); ਗੁਰੂ (gurū)

Additionally I see the following

ਗੁਰੁ as (gur), but I don't think that is right. The "onkurh" is not sounded right in it.

So I did the following as an attempt at correcting it,

ਗੁਰੁ (Gurô)

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Guroo Gur Gur Karahu Guroo Har Paaeeai ||
गुरू गुरु गुरु करहु गुरू हरि पाईऐ ॥
Chant Guru, Guru, Guru; through the Guru, the Lord is obtained.

Ambarsaria ji,
The above is the line fron search Gurbani where you can clearly see the word GuRoo in use.(for the word GuR with Dulaekad under R)

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Tejwant Singh]

How about: ਗੁਰਿ?
ਪੰਨਾ 19, ਸਤਰ 10
ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਸੇ ਉਬਰੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਮੁਠੀ ਧੰਧੈ ਠਗਿ ॥੨॥
गुरि राखे से उबरे होरि मुठी धंधै ठगि ॥२॥
Gur rākẖe se ubre hor muṯẖī ḏẖanḏẖai ṯẖag. ||2||
Those who are protected by the Guru are saved; all others are cheated and plundered by deceitful worldly affairs. ||2||

ਮਃ 1 - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]ਪੰਨਾ 20, ਸਤਰ 1
ਨਾਨਕ ਅਉਗਣ ਵੀਸਰੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਪਤਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥੪॥੧੫॥
नानक अउगण वीसरे गुरि राखे पति ताहि ॥४॥१५॥
Nānak a▫ugaṇ vīsre gur rākẖe paṯ ṯāhi. ||4||15||
O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||
ਮਃ 1 - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

ਗੁਰਿ has been used when the immediate shabad that follows starts with ਰ, so it could be as a break in the word. Means ਗੁਰਿ is same as ਗੁਰ probably.

 

[Ambarsaria]

ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Guroo Gur Gur Karahu Guroo Har Paaeeai ||
गुरू गुरु गुरु करहु गुरू हरि पाईऐ ॥
Chant Guru, Guru, Guru; through the Guru, the Lord is obtained.
Ambarsaria ji,
The above is the line fron search Gurbani where you can clearly see the word GuRoo in use.(for the word GuR with Dulaekad under R)

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash.s.bagga ji I only use srigranth.org and the following for the same shabad as I indicated in my post,
(http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...d=59557#l59557)

ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
गुरू गुरु गुरु करहु गुरू हरि पाईऐ ॥
Gurū gur gur karahu gurū har pā▫ī▫ai.
Chant Guru, Guru, Guru; through the Guru, the Lord is obtained. (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa)

ਤੂੰ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰ। ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। (Bhai Manmohan Singh)

ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹੀ ਹਰੀ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਸਦਾ 'ਗੁਰੂ' 'ਗੁਰੂ' ਕਰੋ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹੀ ਹਰੀ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। (Professor Sahib Singh)

Prakash.s.bagga ji who am I to do better than the masters but I translate it as follows,

Ambarsaria: By recognizing “(all is) of the creator ”, “(all is) of the creator ”, the “guru” finds the creator

Note: The key issue is that the word below does not translate to chant/recite,

ਕਰਹੁ (karahu)
[SIZE=-1]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary[/SIZE] [SIZE=-0] ਕਰੋ, ਬਣਾਓ! ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋ, ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ, ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਕਰੀਏ, ਕਰ ਲਵੇਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਨਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਪਾਪਿਸਟ ਹਤਿਆਰੀ॥ {ਸੋਰ ੪, ਵਾਰ ੨੩:੨ (651)}। ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਹੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੨੩, ੧:੧ (22)}। [/SIZE]

Recite/Chant is more to do with the following,

ਕਹੋ (kaho)

[SIZE=-1]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary[/SIZE] [SIZE=-0] ਬੋਲੋ, ਦਸੋ, ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰੋ! ਨਸੀਹਤ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਕੁਆਰ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਜੈਸੇ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਹੇਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਬਚਨ ਉਪਹਾਸ ਕਹੋ॥ {ਸਾਰ ੫, ੩, ੧:੧ (1203)}। ਜਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਕਹੋ ਨ ਮਾਨੋ ਕੀਓ ਅਪਨੋ ਪਾਈ ਹੈ॥ {ਗੂਜ ਕਬ, ੧, ੨:੨ (524)}। [/SIZE]

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1401&punjabi=t&id=59557#l59557

The above does not use "guroo" in phonetics/pronunciation.

I find srigranth.org much better as I have online access to Bhai Manmohan Singh Teeka and Prof.Sahib Singh ji's Darpan.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

We can get correct and true meanings only we get the understanding of grammer of the words involved in the quote.
The use of words like "vishaal or WahGuru" are only someones personal views.These meanings do not necessarily meet the grammatical requrement.

Thus it is very important to get to know the grammer of three words under consideration.I expect Ambarsaria ji would make the best clarification from Prof Sahib Singhs Book of grammer.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[ravneet_sb]

SAT SRI AKAAL,

In common man,s language

"Gur" here we use as the art/ skill or artist or Kaala

"Guro" as the one who owe this skill in physical form

"Guroo" as the abstract form Page 8 Line 10 Page 27 Line 18 it refers as abstract form of "Guroo"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[/FONT]

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Ravneet sb ji,
This time you are very very correct.I appreciate your meanings.
Now you should find how these meanings can be corroborated in context of Gurbani.
In Gurbani there is no reference of any physical form so this would make the understanding quite different from common mans language.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

SAT SRI AKAAL,

"I" don't know
and my apology "I" have not read most of writtings.

The way it comes "I" write.

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh

To me that sounds a bit too close to ..... like.as in...."Jaisee meh aveh SACH KI BANI..tessrra kareehn GYAN ve LALO".......GURU NANAK JI !!...AS IT comes. ( SO i sing/write).....SACH ILLUMINATES......BUT Guru Ji doesnt use "I" write....nay..not even "i" write....the I and the Me are left out entirely..JIOS..Lets emulate our FATHER...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Its ALWAYS..and ONLY...GURBANI...in SGGS. ONLY the GURU has GURBANI..not any individual... Bani GURU....GURU hai BANI..in Anand Sahib Guru Amardass emphsisies this POINT leaving no doubt whatsoever.( GURU is BANI and BANI is GURU )

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
I respect your views but I have a point to make.
If we say (GURU is BANI and BANI is GURU).......Here I think the word GURU is for word GUR with a matra of Dulaikad as I observe.
If we look at the SABAD realted to this in Raagu NUT M 4 pp 982 we would find in the very next line of the SABAD ,the BANI is being refered with THE WORD GUR (This word GUR has a matra of AUKAD)
In above context you can see that BANI is GUR not GURU as we understand.
I would request you to rectify if you find me wrong.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga