Well if u hold hindutva.org as a offical site of hindutva then u r highly mistaken... RajKhalsa ji, I never said that hindutva.org is the official website. Problem is: Who are the official spokesmen/women???? the name doesnt mean its a patent spokesman of the ideology .. Where is the place where anyone can pin leaders of Hindutva down? The idea of One India is variously coupled with anti-this group and anti-that group, depending on political currents of a point in time. Is this what One India is supposed to mean? .can u shed more light on hindutva agitators ? i need to get a clear picture ..of what u mean ..
rajkhalsa ji
The hindutva.com link on the hindutva.org homepage leads to something called the Hindutva pledge But here is the Hindutva pledge as put forward by the webmasters of hindutva.org. Once again, and this is just my reading, it is very crafty. It appears to honor diversity and neutrality with respect to religion. What is the underlying message? Whatever it is it is not per Gurmat. I have reacted inline in crimson (the color of love :yes to some ideas that are not consistent with Sikhism. And in other places to ideas that are so ambiguous that they are destined to trigger animosity because anyone can interpret them to mean anything.
This page brings you Our Hindutva pledge.
- compiled by the hindutva.org team
We, the hindutva team, advocate the rational-humanist outlook of the late Veer Savarkar, former President of the Hindu Mahasabha who also pioneered the concept of Hindutva in a treatise by that name. This is what defines our outlook and distinguishes us from our twins from the Sangh Parivar who represent the spiritualist-nationalist outlook, which today, by default, is understood as Hindutva.
My reaction: When we are talking about hindutva, as we are in this thread -- which version are we talking about? Or is this confusion there for a purpose?
We, pledge to ourselves that we disown superstition, dogmatism, mythology, miracles, miracle men, godmen, spiritualism, mysticism,
This part sounds per Gurmat and the entire religious, dogmatic and theistic outlook completely.
But Sikhism is a theistic faith.
We also pledge that we disown
caste and casteist feelings totally and permanently.
Hindutva did not disown caste, etc., until it became obvious that by integrating in Dalits they could control larger blocs of votes to swing elections in the direction of agendas that were politically good for hindutva. This is a recent development in hindutva political rhetoric, and one that Dalits now recognize as a political deception.
We pledge to disassociate Hindutva from all that is considered religious, casteist, sectarian, nationalistic and theistic; and pledge to retrieve the modernist, futuristic, egalitarian, secular, globalist, humanist and rationalist outlook which is the essence of the universal and timeless outlook that is inherent to Sanatan Parampara (literally "timeless tradition"). Sanatana Parampara represents the ancient tradition of free-thought from India.
Why should followers of the Sikh panth associate themselves with an organization that is anti-theistic and secular?
The outlook of the Hindutva site advocates tolerance of all forms of religion as a matter of private belief (with controlled public expression). But we reject and pledge to fight
casteism to its finish, we also reject and pledge to fight to their finish ALL shades of religious fanaticism.
Do they plan to fight casteism within the hindutva movement? Are they talking about fighting the political wings of hindutva that the webmasters are not part of ?
OUR CONCEPT OF AN IDEAL SOCIETY
We advocate a form of society where the belief or disbelief in religion is a private matter and religion has controlled public expression. Towards this end, we pledge to use the web to help in fighting to intellectually checkmate and destroy all across the globe, religious fanaticism that advocates the expansion of any one particular form of
religious belief at the point of the sword.
I have to change color here because they are using blue. What is this? They are declaring a cyber-jihad which will checkmate and destroy fanatics of other religions. How do they propose to do this? Is it legal?
We also pledge to intellectually fight and neutralize all across the globe, religious fanaticism which advocates belief in any one particular form of religious belief as the
only true faith the others being paganism.
This is definitely a rhetorical attack against Christians and Muslims. And tries to win adherents with allurements of free education, medical care, orphanages, etc.
We also pledge to expose and neutralize that form of
religious fanaticism which is a reaction to the above two forms of religious fanaticism and which attacks missionariesand tries to counter peaceful but deceptive missionary activity with terror tactics apart from acting as a Culture Police to impose a ban on beauty pageants, celebration of birthdays, New (Julian/Gregorian) Year festivities, honeymoons, et al.
More pointed against Christians.
These folks claim, like us, that they also uphold our same outlook of Hindutva. But we assertively state here that these lumpen elements, do not represent Hindutva since their ideas go against human sanity and commonsense. These vagabonds do not fathom the depth of the Sanatana Parampara, which they allege to represent. We from the
Hindutva - The Hindu Way of Life team, distance ourselves from such uncultured culture police.
Unlike them, we are all for the modernization of human society; which in this context is interpreted by many as Westernization or as Americanization. We do not attach significance to the name(s) given to this process. What we fully endorse is, the observance of everything that makes life full of easygoing fun without causing social harm or social nuisance.
We advocate the principle of the
universal brotherhood of man and the oneness of humankind and reject all kinds of discrimination between man and man. We advocate service to humankind without any ulterior motive of trying to convert people to any kind of mode of worship. We pledge to ensure that there is freedom for people to worship the way they want to (without leading to social discord or holy wars); or not to worship at all. We have to thus work towards a scenario where there is no discrimination between man and man (discrimination as existed in the de-humanizing caste system and in all other forms of socio-economic division of society) and where there is complete freedom to choose one's method of prayer (without leading to social discord or holy wars); or to choose not to pray at all.
A scenario where religion is allowed a controlled social existence and thus does not become a reason for social discord. These statements are insulting to all religions. First they say there should be freedom to choose one's method of prayer. And then they advocate a scenario where religion is "allowed" a controlled social existence so it does not become a reason for social discord. This is both offensive and self-contradictory. Who are they to advocate a scenario that gives permission to the practice of religion?
This scenario is quite similar to the ancient Hindu society, the only difference being that religion, understood as the public practice of worship is controlled, so that it does not become a reason for social discord or holy wars..
???? In ancient Hindu society there was a considerable amount of bias against other religions. This was also the same society that killed any Shudra who was caught reciting the holy scriptures of Brahmins, or coming close to a Brahmin. I am not certain that Shudra's were even allowed to learn to read. Does it not look to you as if hindutva wants to have its cake and eat it too no matter how illogical. They are saying "Go back to the tolerance of ancient Hindu society, but only back to that part of it which romantically seems good and pure." We know our Gurbani - and we know that Guru Nanak rejected these notions. It is this scenario, in which the pre-history of humankind will end. With this will end religious sectarianism, and division of our globe by national borders - borders along which there has been violence, hatred and bloodshed. With this scenario will begin the history of the human species, where science and quest for knowledge will dominate the human outlook and where WE as one species will face
SPACE - the final frontier for humankind.
RajKhalsa ji..... these words could have been uttered by any 20th Century dictator aiming to bring humanity to the brink of a new way of life according to his utopian theory of what that way of life should be. Anyone who did not agree, ended up in a bad place sooner or later.
How Religion is a weakness of the human mind WoW!
Religion is a wrong turn which humankind has taken on the road of perception, at the crossroads – one leading towards “Quest” and another towards “Faith”. Animals have no faith and are not religious. Since they have no perception and no capability to think beyond perception. Humans have this capability. And so when man started thinking of the universe he saw above him, he developed two contradictory responses.
One response was to assume that behind all what he saw was a creator and all what he saw was the creator’s creation. This response was “Faith” and was based on the weakness of the human mind’s inability to understand the unknown universe. This led to the birth of religion. This choice was psychologically satisfying, since nothing was left unexplained. Behind everything man saw in the universe, he assumed there was the creator’s hand. And so he prayed to the creator for his own well being.
The other response was “Quest” according to which he tried to assume nothing, but to understand the unknown universe to the extent of his (man’s) capability. This gave birth to science. This choice was realistic, since it was not based on the assumption that there is a creator behind all that man saw. But this choice could not psychologically satisfying, since it did not explain everything in the universe with the one common explanation – what exists is god’s creation and whatever happens is god’s will.
I am a servant to the will of Waheguru. These passages above are a rejection of faith.
And a celebration of manmukh philosophy.
How come many leading scientists are deeply religious?
In many cases a leading scientist would be devoutly religious. This does not prove that religion is right.
Are they saying that religion is not a right? Do we go back to the part above where in this new society we will be "allowed" to practice our religion. But only if we are not nuisances about it? It only proves that humans can have the two mutually contradictory responses of faith and quest within one person. The fact is that “Faith” and “Quest” nullify each other. And most of us (excepts atheists like me) have both these responses as a part of our personality in a Jeckyll and Hyde syndrome.
It is good to see that the webmaster admits he is an atheist.
Are religion and morality same?
One factor that wrongfully gave (and still gives) an alibi for religion to exist was that of the association of ethics and morality with religion and the confusion that religion (or the mistaken belief of the unknown universe being a god) is ethics and morality. Since religion was based on the fear of the unknown universe, this fear could be used to make man behave in a certain manner – good or bad. When this fear was used to inculcate good behavior like “You should not steal” You should not lie”, etc., religion became a medium to enforce ethics and morality in society in the early phase of human social evolution.
There is nothing new or amazing about this discovery.
This was like a small child being told by his mother that “Do not eat the sweets, while I am away, since god is watching and he will punish you.” Now the child does not eat the sweets when mummy is away, since he fears that god will punish him. If the same argument is used when the child grows into an adult, it would look silly. You do not tell a thirty year old person not to eat sweets, since god is watching. He needs to be told the real reason for not eating sweets (whatever that reason may be). Similarly in the early phase of humankind’s social evolution, religion based as it was on the fear of the unknown, played a useful role to inculcate ethical and moral behavior among humans. But in today’s scientific information age, human society can be taught ethics with the reasoning that ethics and morals are necessary for civilized society to exist, and not because a god will punish humans who do not have ethics and morals! Thus we see that ethics and morality are independent of belief in the unknown universe as being a god, but since in the early phase of human evolution, it was necessary to have a psychological medium to inculcate ethics and morality- religion played this role, which today is not necessary. This also shows how ethics and morality are independent of religion and we need not confuse ethics and morality with religion.
As against these examples of good ethics and morals, religion also inculcated unethical and immoral behavior like the religious commands to convert all humans to your religion and use physical force in doing this while killing all those who refuse to comply. So, the religious choice while psychologically satisfying in explaining the unknown universe as god’s creation and all that was happening as god’s will, also led to another problem, where humans wanted all other humans to accept their interpretation of the assumption called god. This put humankind on a path of perpetual conflict in religious wars.
Again manmukh speaking about ethics and morality. Guru Nanak says if we wish to play the game of love, then we give up our egos and trickery of munn. Enshrine the Name of the Divine in our hearts and evil will depart.
Hence Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc stick to their own interpretation of the assumption called god and try to enforce on others their interpretation of the assumption called god.
Everything written so far by the webmaster in this pledge is based on his/their assumptions about God AND it is a pledge to enforce control of religion on others.
No such problem existed in the field of science. The scientists who subscribed to the theory of the ‘Big bang’ of the creation of the universe do not impose this theory on those who go by the ‘Implosion’ theory of the creation of the universe. There may be seminars and conferences and debates, but this cannot lead to violence as it does between different religions. More so they never think of imposing this theory by the force of arms on other scientists. They never say “Accept this theory or else I will kill you”. But in the field of religion this is very much a reality, “Accept my interpretation of the assumption called god or I will kill you, or force you some way.”
Sometimes this is a reality. It is not always a reality. Not even in India. Is what most religious persons say, especially the monotheistic Muslims and Christians, but the Hindus and Buddhists are also insistent in a generally non-violent way.
I am getting tired typing right now. But isn't it very interesting how monothesitic Sikhism was omitted from the list. Now I would agree that Sikhs do not try to force their religion on others at the point of a sword. But when was the last time you saw or heard of a Buddhist doing that?
The insistence of the monotheistic Muslims and Christians has led to the inter-faith wars of the past and present (Jihad, and the response to Jihad – the war on terror). But the possibility of such a war or coercion did not and could not exist among different schools in the scientific community. No Doctor asks a Lawyer or an Accountant, to become a Doctor or else he will kill them! Sounds stupid, isn’t it? But a Muslim does ask a Christian or Hindu to become a Muslim or else he will kill them or harass them. Why does a Muslim as a religious person do this?? But a Doctor as a member of a scientific profession does not do this? Any answers??? And do we see the difference that religion and science leads to in human behavior? This is why religions are inherently contradictory to each other and so are in perpetual conflict with each other and also with science.
Obviously science does not lead us to peace, harmony, rationality (a favorite of the person who wrote the pledge), the absence of war and conflict. If science were the solution, then why do we have the H-bomb! If a scientific attitude were the answer, then why are little girls in the majority the victims of foeticide? Science is misused because humans misuse it. The humans who misuse it are humans who do not have a moral and ethical center that arises from a sense that there is someone, something, greater than the laws of the material universe and the human experience to guide them. To base moral and ethical guidance solely on scientific understanding of material universe and/or from the human experience is the source of pain and suffering.
It is this inherent contradiction in religion that had made it imperative today that religion be controlled and not be allowed to destroy human civilization.
Finally the truth is out. This is and the next sentence are hardly compatible with Sikhism. It needs to be controlled by curtailing (or banning) the public practice of religion. But religion as a response cannot be removed from the human mind, since it originates from the weakness of the human mind’s inability to understand the unknown universe. By preventing the public practice of religion, we can only ensure that this weakness does not develop into a sickness of religious fanaticism that threatens human civilization, as it does today through the Jihad and the unavoidable response to this Jihad – the War on Terror
For the Future, to ensure that the public practice of religion does not lead to social strife, we feel that the following points need to be implemented in human society the world over.
- Celebration of religious festivals or any other form of public expression of religion, should always be under the supervision and control of the civil (law and order) authority.
No more Guru de Naal celebrations.
- All educational institutions should be run by professional educational bodies who should follow a common syllabus and curriculum. This syllabus and curriculum should educate every generation about the nature of
religious outlook itself and the creative and destructive role it has played in past Human history. The syllabus and curriculum should not to require/ask of everyone to believe in god or to stop believing in god. Every child of schooling age would have to get educated through the medium of such schools.
No Gurmat school.
- There should be a common Civil Code for the entire citizenry across the globe.
There already is a common code in India which includes the Hindu Marriage Act - and if you are a Jain, Sikh or Hindu, you have to pay someone to facilitate your walk around Agni to be married whether you want to or not.
- There should be a general ban on evangelism and public debate between different modes of worship.
SPN would not longer be able to have an Interfaith Dialogs forum.
We are aware that these suggestions will be subjected to severe criticism by visitors from various (all) religious backgrounds.
Yes. Me. But we the webmasters of this
Hindutva site believe that the future hope for the human species does not lie in religion, spiritualism, dogmatism, and the concurrent religious fanaticism and theology-inspired terrorism that all religions breed. The future Human Being should be more attuned to frequenting Science Labs and Astronomical Observatories;
rather than going to Churches, Temples, Monasteries, Mosques, Fire-altars, Synagogues, etc.
Our future lies in the human qualities of reasoning, scientific research, increasing understanding of the physical universe beyond the globe and the solar system. The qualities for a future ideal Human Being would be those of being a saintly scientist who would function as a soldier whenever our human species and the civilized human way of living is threatened from forces within the human species (like those of theology-inspired terrorism) or from forces beyond our planet and solar system.
The religious human beings of today use their capabilities to conquer one another through holy wars in an effort to impose one single religion on the human race. The vision religious people pursue is to land up in heaven with all the goodies of heaven, or Jannat, or swarga.
Who is having the fantasy? This fantasy is built around a mythical paradise with its angels, fairies, houris, etc. But we hope that the rational human being of the future would use all his capabilities to extend his understanding of the universe and to conquer the universe. His vision would be to extend human control over the universe in an endless exercise where he goes from the Earth to the Moon, to Mars, to outside the solar system and onwards beyond our galaxy in an endless quest that engages him in a thrilling saga of understanding the universe, where his capabilities are pitted for the conquest of the universe, and not against his own species in war of self-destruction.
- pledge compiled by the Hindutva.org team
(This Hindutva Site is managed by a Virtual Team of Webmasters across the globe. The articles included at this site do not necessarily represent the views of the Webmasters.)
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Now rajkhalsa ji -- Put this pledge together with the steady, negative focus on Musims on the home page, and one begins to wonder whether there are some profound biases among the followers of hindutva. One place though where I may be starting to concur with you. This site hindutva.org and in particular this pledge may not represent hindutva in a fair and accurate way. It seems very strident. So if you send me some links, I will read the material, and provide you with an equally serious critique. I am serious.