Hypocrisy In Choosing Partners?

[chazSingh]

sat Sri akal

I was a bit unsure as to which forum this was best in.

Here's a question. I hear often of how shallow Sikh girls are becoming that they don't want to marry a man who has a beard and turban but rather would try and choose a shaven man with short hair.

It has come up a lot.

Question though, would you consider the opposite hypocritical?

Ok I wouldn't say I "wouldn't consider a man who shaves and cuts his hair". Far from it; I base myself on people's actions far more than their looks. But the fact of the matter is, I'm attracted to guys with a full beard and turban. And i'd probably rather one than any other type of guy right now. It's been an interesting evolution because when I joined SPN in 2012 I would have never said that. Never. At that time. But here I am almost 4 years later. My current man friend does wear a turban and has a lovely beard. I wouldn't want him any other way. I'd be shocked and probably dismayed if he told me one day he no longer identified with sikhi and wanted to cut it off. I doubt he would. haha. But I continue to shave my legs and under arms and trim my hair (really, my last trims to take off split ends were less than 1 cm of length at the end, but I know a trim is a trim). It's really because basically while I respect the religion and the religious beliefs, and 110% respect that he won't do that and would NEVER push him to do so, I also don't view it the same way for myself. I feel each and every person out there should be allowed to do what is right for their body at any given time in their life, and that if I am to respect his choices to keep long hair (which are based on religion, but could well be just because he feels like it) I deserve the same respect.

I feel that if there is an omnipotent all loving all knowing god out there, SURELY they couldn't get simultaneously upset about something as "shallow" in my opinion as wanting to cut your hair, and then NOT REACT given there are people dying in wars world wide because of religion. I also wonder if maybe contrary to Sikh belief, if there's a God out there, their intention was more to provide us with a blank canvas to do what we want to with our bodies (whether that's piercing, tattoos, dying or styling our hair). That being said I don't use makeup mostly wear my hair in a plain braid and only use nail polish on my toes not fingers. But I do own a tattoo that nobody who isn't on intimate terms with me sees ;-) and 3 modest (for this day and age ;-)) piercings.

So am I hypocritical? Somewhere out there I'm sure there will be someone who says yes. I guess if I am, in this case, it's probably not my worst sin but given I try not to be judgemental of other people, I don't murder or rape or steal, and I don't consider "lust" aka what I would call *desire* a sin at all, then maybe it is. Heh. ;-)

Or maybe my worst sin is not being terribly good at my bank books and finding myself short on money every month with 3 kids to feed. :-/ who knows.

if you find the beard and turban attractive, go for it...
seriously, everyone of is to some extent pick and chose...slim or fat, light skinned or dark skinned, hair colour etc etc

if you love sikhi...want to unravel the jewels within...also keep that in mind, as some adopt the looks but that's it...it does help from a sikh point of view that there is some mutual love for progress in sikhi...turban or no turban

God bless

 

[namritanevaeh]

No the idea that Amritdhari are a caste is wrong. The whole idea of creating the Khalsa was a brotherhood. Once you take amrit, everyone no matter what their background, drink amrit from the same bata. They share on equal level. Considering Amritdhari as a caste or some sort of elite etc is wrong thinking that goes against one of the main reasons for creating it in the first place!

Here is how I look at it. We are all Sikhs, and in Sikhi there is a path we are supposed to aim for. If someone is not at least AIMING to follow that path then they are on a different path than I am and that would not be conducive to having a family.

Basically I think that if you find someone who respects your beliefs and supports them fully even if they don't have the same ones, and you get along well on other points, that can be just as important.

If I didn't do nitnem with my spouse if he was Amritdhari, I would never stop him from doing it.

There are so many things you can argue on in a relationship. You could "not follow the same religious beliefs and yet respect each other's beliefs fully", and get along perfectly in many other situations. Or you could be of the same religious background and butt heads constantly on whether to have kids, how many kids to have, how to raise kids (not talking religion, more other parenting things...such as how to deal with whether your kid has straight A's or not...), family finances, which car to buy, whether a big house and a beater car is better than a bunch of fancy gadgets and a couple nice cars but living in a small appartment, where to live...etc.

There's so much to argue about.

I know an Amritdhari Sikh lady whose husband doesn't like her volunteering (sounds kinda ridiculously anti-Sikh to me!). But she goes "but at least we have the same faith" and I'm like...if it's constantly causing arguments how is that good?

A friend of mine here (who teaches gurmat studies at Khalsa school) was arguing yesterday with people at the school saying you don't have to be Sikh to marry Sikh. Lol. I was pretty glad myself to hear her say that. Personally...

 

[namritanevaeh]

Actually sikh society is divided on this issue from past 150 years , millions of sikhs left sikhism and now call themselves hindu's because at some point they abandoned hair and they knew that sikhs with hair will not accept them.

On your second point of accepting with kids , again I am sorry to say Indians are quite conservative when it comes to raising kids of others, they actually want their own and if they don't have one then they will ask their relatives to give them one , but for many raising other's child is no no

That sucks that mentality.

Totally not how I was raised.

I do have a blood sibling but I also have an adopted sibling and a foster sibling. The foster sibling was raised in India. My parents paid for his education from around when he was 3-18 years. I only met him when he was 30 but I had awesome parents.

 

[namritanevaeh]

As a female keeping kesh can be waaaaaay more difficult than a man especially with stray hairs growing on my chin. No I don't have a beard but I do have some hairs on my chin and upper lip that if close enough to me you can see. As a female keeping these is way more difficult than a male keeping a beard trust me! And there are some girls with full on beards! Imagine how they feel!!! But they are still keeping their kesh!!!! If They can can keep their kesh you can grow your beard. So it's only your wish for superficial things like fashion and fads and to fit in that makes you want to cut your beard and hairs. Ask yourself are these things more important to you than spiritual progression? Maybe at this point they are. and it's your choice.

Ironically while I shave my chin hair and will fully admit I do it because I don't like the look (superficial), I do NOT consider cutting my hair when my 3 kids were born to be a superficial choice at ALL.

My ex was not helpful in baby care at all. Even a helpful man however might not be able to always keep a newborn calm and happy for a 20 minute shower. The fact is that my hair took way more time to take care of than I wanted to leave my baby crying (and even if my ex was around and able to help sometimes, I was alone a LOT of the time with one or two kids early days, to do my own self care and theirs). I felt it was disrespectful of them and their needs to be spending so much time on grooming (washing hair then drying it and braiding it up...and I hate having babies' fists clutching my loose hair and never wear it down)...for superficial beauty (because I like the look of my hair and the compliments I get for it...). So I cut it all short. Every time I had a kid. To take care of them properly.

Now I keep it long. I trim split ends. When I say trim I mean like 1/8 inch off at most. I don't do that for beauty. Nobody even can tell. I do it because it's easier and faster to brush and braid up...doesn't tangle as much.

I also shave my legs. Even in winter. I don't do that for beauty, because almost nobody sees my legs shaved. I almost never wear shorts, not even in summer. I do it because I happen to ENJOY the feel of silky soft legs. I do it for me, not so for society.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

What can I say? Either you follow rehet or you do not. It's your choice. Not everyone can or wants to be Amritdhari, but if you are, then you are bound by the rehet maryada you made a commitment to follow. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. It's all choice...

 

[Harry Haller]

What can I say? Either you follow rehet or you do not. It's your choice. Not everyone can or wants to be Amritdhari, but if you are, then you are bound by the rehet maryada you made a commitment to follow. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. It's all choice...

There is more to rehat than physical appearance, just because one excels at physical appearance, does not automatically mean one follows rehat.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

There is more to rehat than physical appearance, just because one excels at physical appearance, does not automatically mean one follows rehat.

I didn't say that it did. What I said was that when you take Amrit, you have to abide by the full rehet, which includes the physical. You can't take Amrit and then say ok well my intentions are good so therefore I should be exempt from keeping kesh. You can't pick and choose which bits to follow. It's all or nothing.

Of course nobody is forcing anyone to take Amrit... but if you do make that personal choice, then you have to abide by all of it including external rehet.

 

[Harry Haller]

What I said was that when you take Amrit, you have to abide by the full rehet, which includes the physical

sorry can you show where you said this? All I can see is a reply to a woman that has not taken Amrit and is not Amritdhari.

You can't take Amrit and then say ok well my intentions are good so therefore I should be exempt from keeping kesh. You can't pick and choose which bits to follow. It's all or nothing.

Yes, but the visual ones are always easier, I think keeping kesh is a wonderful idea, not so wonderful if you do not have the inside to match it.

Of course nobody is forcing anyone to take Amrit... but if you do make that personal choice, then you have to abide by all of it including external rehet.

You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

sorry can you show where you said this? All I can see is a reply to a woman that has not taken Amrit and is not Amritdhari.



Yes, but the visual ones are always easier, I think keeping kesh is a wonderful idea, not so wonderful if you do not have the inside to match it.


You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,

How on earth is making a commitment somehow ritual? Especially when you choose to take Amrit? If you don't want to then you don't have to... Easy! But please don't call following Rehet as a ritual! It's a commitment to our Guru!!! Keeping kesh, all five kakkars was established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself! So please don't belittle it by saying it's only ritual!

And yes I responded to her... And I know she did not take Amrit. My point being nobody is telling her she has to! It's her choice so if she wants to keep cut / shaved kesh then that's fine! It would be different if she were Amritdhari.

 

[Harry Haller]

How on earth is making a commitment somehow ritual? Especially when you choose to take Amrit? If you don't want to then you don't have to... Easy! But please don't call following Rehet as a ritual! It's a commitment to our Guru!!! Keeping kesh, all five kakkars was established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself! So please don't belittle it by saying it's only ritual!

And yes I responded to her... And I know she did not take Amrit. My point being nobody is telling her she has to! It's her choice so if she wants to keep cut / shaved kesh then that's fine! It would be different if she were Amritdhari.

This entire post is moot as my comment was actually

You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,

see, I have made it bold, so you can get a good look at it, I would be grateful if you could simply answer the questions I have asked rather than attribute comments to me that were never mine.

I find this sort of mischief making most un Sikh like , and frankly I expect more of those that have made this commitment than this.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

This entire post is moot as my comment was actually

You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,

see, I have made it bold, so you can get a good look at it, I would be grateful if you could simply answer the questions I have asked rather than attribute comments to me that were never mine.

I find this sort of mischief making most un Sikh like , and frankly I expect more of those that have made this commitment than this.

You are free to believe that if you want... for me it's a commitment to my Guru that I am not at liberty to pick and choose what parts I want to follow. Its all or nothing. If I did not take Amrit, I would not be bound to all of the Rehet Maryada. But, since I have taken Amrit, I am.

Also, you seem to be harping on "ritual" instead of what I am hoping you meant was "empty ritual" we do LOTS every single day which is ritual for us. Ritual means repeated. We wake up, shower, brush our teeth, drive to work, etc. That is all ritual we engage in every single day. The Gurus were not against "ritual" they were against "empty ritual" which had to meaning or purpose.

For example, let's take idol worship. It's not the repetitive nature of worshipping an idol which is condemned. Rather, a stone idol, made of mineral, part of the overall creation in which EVERYTHING contains the divine light. What purpose would it serve to worship only one part, just a small stone idol? What makes that stone idol more important than a tree, the mountains, animals, humans, stars, planets, galaxies etc? So worshipping a mere stone idol is fruitless, because our Creator is literally everywhere and in everything. Worshipping a stone idol is empty of meaning.

You can not ever apply the same to following the rehet maryada. There is nothing "Empty" in following Rehet. You are abiding by the commitment you made to your Guru.

But please be more clear on "empty ritual" vs "ritual". Nitnem can be seen as a ritual we do every day because it is repetitive. But it is definitely not "empty ritual". I think you can get what I meant.

 

[Harry Haller]

You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,

sorry this is my fault, and I am being quite genuine here, my point was not the question of ritual per se, we can save that argument for another day, no, my point was that you made it sound like ritual, ie, my issue is or was, as I think the time has gone to clarify, the way you made it sound.

Kind regards and best wishes

Harry

 

[namritanevaeh]

How on earth is making a commitment somehow ritual? Especially when you choose to take Amrit? If you don't want to then you don't have to... Easy! But please don't call following Rehet as a ritual! It's a commitment to our Guru!!! Keeping kesh, all five kakkars was established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself! So please don't belittle it by saying it's only ritual!

And yes I responded to her... And I know she did not take Amrit. My point being nobody is telling her she has to! It's her choice so if she wants to keep cut / shaved kesh then that's fine! It would be different if she were Amritdhari.

So, question:

Do you follow all of guru Gobind Singh ji's 52 hukkams, including learning about other religions?

Personally I think that is the one that most Sikhs fall behind on. Sure many know basics about Islam and Hinduism (particularly in an attempt to point to why Sikhi isn't the same as either of those), and some Christianity. But there are many many religions out there and some I've mentioned that many Sikhs don't even know of the name let alone ANY of their beliefs and teachings...

 

[namritanevaeh]

Also, you seem to be harping on "ritual" instead of what I am hoping you meant was "empty ritual" we do LOTS every single day which is ritual for us. Ritual means repeated. We wake up, shower, brush our teeth, drive to work, etc. That is all ritual we engage in every single day. The Gurus were not against "ritual" they were against "empty ritual" which had to meaning or purpose.

For example, let's take idol worship. It's not the repetitive nature of worshipping an idol which is condemned. Rather, a stone idol, made of mineral, part of the overall creation in which EVERYTHING contains the divine light. What purpose would it serve to worship only one part, just a small stone idol? What makes that stone idol more important than a tree, the mountains, animals, humans, stars, planets, galaxies etc? So worshipping a mere stone idol is fruitless, because our Creator is literally everywhere and in everything. Worshipping a stone idol is empty of meaning.

These are good points but at the same time, what of worshiping a book as if it is a human? I'm not saying NOT to but if the creator is in everything then surely worshiping a stone is just as valid.

What I found interesting in reading some of the guru Nanak stories and him dismissing certain Hindu rituals was that he was seeming to say that what they were doing was absolutely false, and there was no use to it, it is an empty ritual, but that was his definition. If something MEANS something to you it should mean that that is not an empty ritual. Even if it means nothing to the person next door.

I never bowed down before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for a long long time. It meant nothing to me. It would be empty ritual. When I did do it ultimately was when I had been away from a gurdwara for more than a week in summer of 2015 and unable to visit one, and I missed it so badly that I virtually threw myself down on the ground in front of it when I finally got to one. I can't tell you WHY it felt right then but didn't before really (I mean I know it was because I missed it but why?). But I certainly think that for ME, a lot of what people would expect me to do, in terms of bowing down as it goes by or even covering my head when it's not what's in my culture nor is it written in rehat that anyone other than "Sikh women" should cover their head in the presence of SGGSJ, SHOULD be defined as "empty ritual". So I find myself kind of divided. On the one hand I'm participating (a lot) in a community that frowns on empty ritual, and yet would frown at ME for not doing what "they" feel I should do. And on the other hand I probably shouldn't care whether I participate in empty ritual since I don't see why it is actually anything either for or against anything I particularly believe in.

(Sorry, long diatribe maybe, just to say colour me confused ;-))

 

[namritanevaeh]

sorry can you show where you said this? All I can see is a reply to a woman that has not taken Amrit and is not Amritdhari.

You make it sound like a ritual rather than a way of life,

What I find ironic is how often I hear people say Sikhi is a way of life not a religion. And then I look at the "rules" one has to follow to be fully Sikh and yeah they look very ritualistic to me for a lot of them. I can follow a lot of the good teachings of Sikhi, I can be the kind of person who would for example defend people and their right to practice their religion, without BEING Amritdhari aka fully Sikh, and given its restrictions I kinda go "why would I choose to limit myself so much?"...because having thought of it I honestly think I can do more FOR Sikhi as well as more for humanity, by NOT taking Amrit and just by following the side of it that says "be a decent human and defend people and learn about their beliefs and feed them"...

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

These are good points but at the same time, what of worshiping a book as if it is a human? I'm not saying NOT to but if the creator is in everything then surely worshiping a stone is just as valid.

What I found interesting in reading some of the guru Nanak stories and him dismissing certain Hindu rituals was that he was seeming to say that what they were doing was absolutely false, and there was no use to it, it is an empty ritual, but that was his definition. If something MEANS something to you it should mean that that is not an empty ritual. Even if it means nothing to the person next door.

I never bowed down before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for a long long time. It meant nothing to me. It would be empty ritual. When I did do it ultimately was when I had been away from a gurdwara for more than a week in summer of 2015 and unable to visit one, and I missed it so badly that I virtually threw myself down on the ground in front of it when I finally got to one. I can't tell you WHY it felt right then but didn't before really (I mean I know it was because I missed it but why?). But I certainly think that for ME, a lot of what people would expect me to do, in terms of bowing down as it goes by or even covering my head when it's not what's in my culture nor is it written in rehat that anyone other than "Sikh women" should cover their head in the presence of SGGSJ, SHOULD be defined as "empty ritual". So I find myself kind of divided. On the one hand I'm participating (a lot) in a community that frowns on empty ritual, and yet would frown at ME for not doing what "they" feel I should do. And on the other hand I probably shouldn't care whether I participate in empty ritual since I don't see why it is actually anything either for or against anything I particularly believe in.

(Sorry, long diatribe maybe, just to say colour me confused ;-))

I only have a min so I'll reply rest later but regarding Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we are not 'worshipping a book' as human.

You could burn a saroop of SGGSJ, and you would not destroy our Guru. You could tear pages out, scribble on them, and our Guru would not be lost. You know why? It's not the physical pages or ink or the binding that we are bowing to out of respect, it's the TRUTH contained within it....Universal truth. That truth surpasses anything physical.

 

[SimonVegas]

It is important to recognize that Sikh girls, like all individuals, have the right to choose a partner based on their own personal preferences and values. While some may prefer a partner who also wears a turban and keeps a beard.