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Hypocrisy Of Karma

Randip Singh

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Dear Randip ji,

The theory of Karma or the doctrine of karma is a part of the Divine law (hukam). "The whole universe," says Guru Arjan, Nanak V, "is bound by action, good or bad" (GG, 51). Guru Nanak declares in the Japji that "all forms, beings, greatness and lowliness, pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are subject to the indescribable hukam and there is nothing outside the realm of hukam," (GG, 1) and then adds that "karma determines the kapra, i.e. body or birth we receive and that it is through nadar (God's grace) that one secures the threshold of moksa" (GG, 2). Sikhism, moreover, distinguishes between karma and kirat. The latter term applies to the cumulative effect of actions performed during successive births and is somewhat akin to 'sanchit karma' and 'prarabdh karma' of Hindu theoreticians.

TRANSMIGRATION OF THE SOUL doctrine of rebirth based on the theory that an individual soul passes at death into a new body or new form of life. Central to the concept is the principle of universal causality; i.e. a person must receive reward or punishment if not here and now then in a subsequent birth, for his actions in the present one. The soul, it is held, does not cease with the physical body, but takes on a new birth in consequence of the person’s actions comprising thoughts, words and deeds. The cumulative effect of these determines his next existence. Attached to worldly objects, man will continue in the circuit of birth-death-rebirth until he attains spiritual liberation, annulling the effect of his past actions.

Belief in reincarnation is basic to the eschatology of all religions of Indian origin. Some Western philosophers of yore also believed in the transmigration of soul, but for them it was associated with the concept of the immortality of soul. In Indian tradition, on the other hand, transmigration is an essential concomitant of the doctrine of karma, according to which every action, physical or mental, has its own consequence which must be faced immediately or in future, either in this life or in the hereafter, good actions leading to a favourable reward and bad actions entailing punishment. The individual soul (jvatma), so it is believed, does not perish with the physical body but dons a new corporeal vesture in a new birth which is determined by its karma in the preceding births. Every new birth in its turn necessarily involves new karma or action leading to further consequences. Jivatma is thus tied to a karmik chakra or an endless cycle of birth-action-death-rebirth, until the chain is broken and karmik accumulation is dissipated and the jiva attains mukti or moksa, i.e. liberation or release from transmigration.

The origin of the idea of transmigration is traced back to the post-Vedic period. The early Aryans simply believed that good men ascended to heaven to join company with the gods while the souls of the wicked sank down into the abyss of hell. The postulate that there is no unmerited happiness and unmerited misery and that the individual soul takes after death a new existence during which it reaps what, good or bad, it had sown earlier was first propounded in the Satpatha Brahmana, one of the several commentaries that preceded the appearance of the Upanisads. Since then in India the highest spiritual goal has been the release of the jivatma from the cycle of birth and death or avagaman (lit. coming and going). Different traditions within the Indian religious systems offer different analyses and correspondingly different solutions. One view is that since transmigration is subject to karma or actions, the cycle can be broken only through the annihilation or karma. Various methods have been suggested to achieve this end such as renunciation, non-action, ritualism and gian (jnana) or philosophical and metaphysical knowledge.

Transmigration - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

Kindly read on from the link given above.
My opinion is as follows:

The point to stress upon is that sikhism does not believe in any hierarchy as pointed out by you above. There is nothing in Granth sahib that states so. It is only the Karmas that are talked about. At no place it is specified that if the action is 'x' the reaction/reward would be' x1'. There cannot be any mathematical precision in the theory of Karma or transmigration. It is a concept to signify that there can be adverse reactions if one does not become virtuous or does not lead the life as is required and stated in Granth sahib.

I shall be grateful if you could post the sabad or the line on the basis of which you have raised your doubt.May be I am missing something.

Thanks for your answer.

On Sikhiwiki, I tend to stay away from there as 99% of the articles there are heavily dogamised by the chief editor there Hari Singh and his Kenyan Sikh GNSSJ view of Sikhism. See here>> Revision history of "Transmigration" - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia. :tongue: As you can see this is HariSinghism not Sikhism.

But nevertheless thanks.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant Ji

I am nobody in front of a very wise and senior scholar of your talent. I am simply a trader who writes without any scholarly knowledge. I feel that Hukam is so immutable that no one can get away from it. There is no vakil, daleel or appeal against this Hukam except His grace which can tear out all your lekha. Coming back to start with one shabad in full. This is written by Guru Arjan and is very long
ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p>jo jo jUnI AwieE iqh iqh aurJwieE mwxs jnmu sMjoig pwieAw ] qwkI hY Et swD rwKhu dy kir hwQ kir ikrpw mylhu hir rwieAw ]1] Aink jnm BRim iQiq nhI pweI ] krau syvw gur lwgau crn goivMd jI kw mwrgu dyhu jI bqweI ]1] rhwau ] SGGS 686.17
The last stanza of above sabd also ends with rahao pankti which is center
of each sabd.

sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ] Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw ] 687.12 SGGS 687.12

As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.
Best regards

</o:p>

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

First of all, let me clarify one thing. I am neither a Sikh scholar, historian, intellect, nor do I intend or pretend to be.

I am also a trader but in a minute nano form. However, one thing both of us have in common, that is, that we are both Sikhs, seekers, learners, hence on the same playing field.

My question to you was regarding your quoting one liners of Shabads to prove your point about Karma which is the starting thread, "Hypocrisy of Karma" not about Hukam.

In my opinion, Hukam means: what ought to happen in any form or shape is going to happen. Our limited, limited language and intellect cannot express it nor can they grasp this Wow! and Awe! factors of Hukam.

We should not confuse human actions good or bad, in actions with the Hukam of The Source which in itself is unfathomable and indescribable. Hukam teaches us acceptance which is umpteen steps ahead of tolerance that other dogmatic religions teach.

Hukam is a vast tent under which all humanity has the capability of living in harmony.

Mool Mantar is the blue print of Truthful living, Jap is its foundation and the rest of the Guru Granth teaches us that if we abide by the Hukam, then we can all lead a truthful life, irrespective of our hue, creed or faith.

But that is not the point of my initial post. As Sikhs, students, learners and seekers- NOT as scholars, it is our duty to express what we understand by the Shabads posted by us as all messages of Gurbani are personal depending on which milestone one is at and only Ik Ong Kaar is the one who knows the spiritual mark of the milestone.

So, I will again request you to express yourself about what message the shabads you have quoted give you and please share it with us so that we can all learn as Sikhs from each other. This is the true essence of," Mil Sadh Sangat, Bhaj Keval Naam.

Regarding your post above, allow me to point one thing out.

You write:


sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ] Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw ] 687.12 SGGS 687.12

As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.

I will copy & paste two literal translations of the Rahao dooja.

Literal Translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji

ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣ ਰਹੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥੩॥
आवण जाण रहे मिले साधा ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥१॥३॥
Āvaṇ jāṇ rahe mile sāḏẖā. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||1||3||.
Meeting with the Saint-Guru, my comings and goings have ended. Pause 2nd.

Literal translation by Dr. Sant Singh khalsa

ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣ ਰਹੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥੩॥
आवण जाण रहे मिले साधा ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥१॥३॥
Āvaṇ jāṇ rahe mile sāḏẖā. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||1||3||.
My comings and goings have ended, since I met the Holy Saint. ||1||Second. Pause||1||3||

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib


Neither of the translators above state, show or explain what you have concluded which is:

As per my simple understanding journey is a round trip. I hope this claries the point.

There is no round trip journey here.

Am I missing something?

And one more request, please read the Shabads that precede and follow this on pages 686 and 687 to have the better understanding of the concept mentioned in the Shabads.

I am waiting for your own explanation of each Shabad that you have quoted in your posts to express your point of Karma so we can all learn from each other.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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japjisahib04

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<FONT face="Arial Narrow"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Jaswant Ji<?"urn:
P><P class=MsoNormal style=

You may deny being a scholar but your writing clearly reveals that you are not less than that. It is your humility. When one is enlightened and revelation is dawn upon, “guJVw lDmu lwlu mQY hI prgtu iQAw ] - the hidden jewel lwlu becomes known which does not require any university degree. It appears by the way of expression and writing of the author..” - Guru Granth ang.1096.14. I am only a learner and could be wrong in my interpretation or understanding. Your comments compelled me to revisit the sabd and go through the preceding lines.

Perhaps you will agree that Rahao line of a Shabad is the essence or meaning of the Shabad. It is like the nectar of a flower and the rest of the verses are like petals protecting/complimenting the nectar, making the whole Shabad a flower that emits its scent in all directions sans bias. The interpretation of first rahao in this shabad as per my understanding is that Guru Sahib who have recognized their self is requesting to guide him how to pay back the favors of granting him human jama(prani tu aaya laha lain) and ultimately unite with Him as through several incarnations (in different philosophies) I was not able to blend myself to unite with you.

Through the second rahao of this sabd,Guru sahib confirms that the purpose of his life is served and his mind is ultimately imbued with the ecstasy of Guru sabd and mission of his journey is successfully accomplished and as such his coming and going (wandering)is over. The message is clear unless you pay back his favors you will keep on wandering through many incarnation depending upon your karma and subsequent grace.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

But let me re- emphasize what I said earlier that I am neither a Sikh scholar, historian, intellect, nor do I intend or pretend to be. The reason of my this repetition may sound redundant to some but for me it creates the equal playing fields for all of us who call ourselves Sikhs so that we become open minded to learn from each other.

You write:


Perhaps you will agree that Rahao line of a Shabad is the essence or meaning of the Shabad. It is like the nectar of a flower and the rest of the verses are like petals protecting/complimenting the nectar, making the whole Shabad a flower that emits its scent in all directions sans bias.


I like the way you put the meaning of Rahao above. I hope you will allow me to use the same one day.

The interpretation of first rahao in this shabad as per my understanding is that Guru Sahib who have recognized their self is requesting to guide him how to pay back the favors of granting him human jama(prani tu aaya laha lain) and ultimately unite with Him as through several incarnations (in different philosophies) I was not able to blend myself to unite with you.

Through the second rahao of this sabd,Guru sahib confirms that the purpose of his life is served and his mind is ultimately imbued with the ecstasy of Guru sabd and mission of his journey is successfully accomplished and as such his coming and going (wandering)is over. The message is clear unless you pay back his favors you will keep on wandering through many incarnation depending upon your karma and subsequent grace.

Mohinder Singh ji,

As requested by me several times in my other posts, please be kind enough and give us the whole Shabad with your own understanding so that many of the members of this wonderful forum, including myself can learn and then be able to interact. This will help all of us to enhance our Gurmat knowledge.

After you have done the above mentioned Shabad then we can start talking about other Shabads that you have mentioned in your posts.


Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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japjisahib04

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Tejwant Ji

<?"urn:<img src=" />
Since this shabd is in ashtpadhi, I will try to take one stanza at a time. To be very frank with you I am not blessed with good command over English like you.

The first pankti states, ‘jo jo jUnI AwieE iqh iqh aurJwieE mwxs jnmu sMjoig pwieAw ]qwkI hY Et swD rwKhu dy kir hwQ kir ikrpw mylhu hir rwieAw ] whosoever is born in whichever juene ( philosophy) he got attached with Maya and remain attached throughout his life as they think this their mission to amass wealth, the birth through the womb of spiritually elevated pious mother is only through the good destiny. Since I was blessed to be born through the womb of such pious mother, kindly keep your support, and bless me so that I come upto the expectation and with your Grace I may merge with my beloved.

The second stanza is rahao. The interpretation of first rahao in this shabad as per my understanding is that Guru Sahib who have recognized their self is requesting to guide him how to pay back the favors of granting him human jama(prani tu aaya laha lain) and ultimately unite with Him as through several incarnations (in different philosophies) I was not able to blend myself to unite with you.

Unlike Guru Amardas Ji who was idol worshipper, so different philosopies concept does not apply to Guru Arjan Dev Ji who was born into Guru ghar. Therefore this pankti writtrn by Guru Arjan Dev Ji directly tells us that Guru sahib is talking of different incarnation.
Best regards
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Mohinder Singh ji

Guru fateh.

I hope your two posts are directed to me. The reason I ask this is because both of them are addressed to Jaswant Singh rather than Tejwant Singh. I am sure it is an oversight.

Thanks for going stanza by stanza on this Shabad. But I do not know why the pankti written in Roman is not legible. Please use the following site next time which will help us see the Shabad in Gurmukhi and also in Roman.

http://www.srigranth.org

You can use the literal translation either by Sant Singh or by Manmohan Singh but also share the message you receive from the Shabad in a personal manner.

One more request. Before you go further into this Asthpadhi, please read the preceding Shabad by Guru Nanak in Dhansari which lays the foundation for the next Dhansari by our 5th Guru.

One more interesting thing to notice is that the Dhansari Asthpadi starts with:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=686&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=1

This must be some reminder to us that we should not look over before trying to understand the Shabad.

Lastly, as you explained the meaning of Rahao in such a nice manner. Just out of curiosity, I would like to know how did you come to think of this in such a manner? And would it be OK with you if Iused it?

Perhaps you will agree that Rahao line of a Shabad is the essence or meaning of the Shabad. It is like the nectar of a flower and the rest of the verses are like petals protecting/complimenting the nectar, making the whole Shabad a flower that emits its scent in all directions sans bias.
Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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japjisahib04

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S.Tejwant Ji

Yes Tejwant Ji, it is through an oversight. I apologize. I am getting the right font, if you download the gurbaniakharislim it should work. I will try to see the preceding ashtapadi too. With regard to use of rahao meaning to tell you the truth, I read it somewhere and found appropriate.
Thanks
Best regards
 

japjisahib04

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Tejwant Ji,

<?"urn:<img src=" />
Thanks for referring me to srigranth.org site. Though the translation is literal but it is quite helpful. I was wondering if I could download the entire Guru Granth sahib from this site on hard disc, but was not successful. I have gone through the preceding ashtpadi. In this pankti Guru sahib is emphassing on sehaj. Word Sehj or Sehj Marg is the process commended by Guru Nanak in contradiction to difficult postures prevalent during his time, which is with intuitive ease - <TT>spontaneous harmony - is the natural state of contemplation has to happen 24/7. It is</TT> a departure from the rigid rituals, which tortures the body.

In first pankti he says, ‘shij imlY imilAw prvwxu ] nw iqsu mrxu n Awvxu jwxu ] Twkur mih dwsu dws mih soie jh dyKw qh Avru n koie ]1]those who seek through spontaneous harmony find union with Him and their union is approved as branded without any investigation. Such devotee becomes immortal (jiwanmukt) thus is saved from the cycle of reincarnation and then there is no difference between God and him. As a result wherever and in each of His creation He sees God.

And then in rahao pankti which is essence of this sabd, Guru sahib tells that through the ecstasy of Gur sabd one is able to please his beloved and merge. How to do that? <TT>Gurbani has given very simple answer – “</TT>hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ] is to chant the Name of God from the core of your heart and maintain pure conduct.” – Guru Granth ang.266.13. Then Guru sahib says to live according to Niyam is Hukam and without surrendering to His hukam, one stays away from and as such goes through the cycle of reincarnation.

It confirms that the interpretation I have done earlier was based on preceding sabd. And since the translation of all other pankti is with you, I don't think you need further explanation.
Best regards
 
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Randip Singh

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Comment Fof JapjiSahib and Tejwant Singh

We seem to have digressed, but the bottom line is when we use one or two lines of Bani and not put it into context, i.e. the Shabad, we distort the entire meaning . Whether this is deliberate or not is debatable.

The prime example of where distortion can take place is in emotive subjects such as caste, homosexuality, vegetarianism etc.

For example of how wholesale distortion can take place I suggest you read the essay Fools Wrangle Over Flesh. The first section shows how Bani can be manipulated for a particular agenda, in this case in favour of Vaishnavites.;)
 

Tejwant Singh

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Comment Fof JapjiSahib and Tejwant Singh

We seem to have digressed, but the bottom line is when we use one or two lines of Bani and not put it into context, i.e. the Shabad, we distort the entire meaning . Whether this is deliberate or not is debatable.

The prime example of where distortion can take place is in emotive subjects such as caste, homosexuality, vegetarianism etc.

For example of how wholesale distortion can take place I suggest you read the essay Fools Wrangle Over Flesh. The first section shows how Bani can be manipulated for a particular agenda, in this case in favour of Vaishnavites.;)

Randip Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Good point and I agree with you. I thought Mohinder Singh ji would express the message he gets from the Shabads and that can only be done if one does the whole Shabad, one by one, not some lines at a time. But as he found it cumbersome because of the length of the Shabad, I agreed with him to do it line by line but from the result, one can notice that it distorts the message or we see in it what we want to. Poetry can not be dissected into prose like that.

So, my request to Mohinder Singh ji. Please give your own expression about the whole Shabad so all of us are able to understand your viewpoint which is based on Gurbani.

Tejwant Singh
 

japjisahib04

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Randip Singh Ji

I don't think so we have digressed from the subject. I am just interpretating the gurabni at the request of S.Tejwant Singh Ji so that we at the end we come back to the original issue. After few lines, I was expecting his response but it seems the thread has come to standstill. I request Tejwant Singh Ji to give his view and tell me where there is contradiction so that our efforts come to some conclusion.
Mohinder Singh Sahni
 

Randip Singh

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Randip Singh Ji

I don't think so we have digressed from the subject. I am just interpretating the gurabni at the request of S.Tejwant Singh Ji so that we at the end we come back to the original issue. After few lines, I was expecting his response but it seems the thread has come to standstill. I request Tejwant Singh Ji to give his view and tell me where there is contradiction so that our efforts come to some conclusion.
Mohinder Singh Sahni


Ok, we may not have digressed but the point is, if we take one or two lines out of a shabad does not the shabad get distorted?

A chap called HariSingh editor on Sikhiwiki has done this and he did it at wikipedia too, however on Wikipedia many learned Sikhs were able to edit it, but he blocked people on Sikhiwiki. That suggests to me that some people (I am not suggesting you), can misuse Bani if it is used in this way.

Please see Fools Wrangle over flesh

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html
 
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