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If Christianity Can Be Proven Wrong, Then What Makes Sikhism So Right?

namritanevaeh

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SPNer
Oct 14, 2012
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Surrey, Canada
In the past, most of the Hindu Punjabi families had their first child, sadly a boy, to be a Sikh with kesh etc. etc. Hence one will find many Hindu families having Sikhs in their families because of this.

Interesting. I'm glad to see someone who isn't so caught up in dogma to insist if you dare cut your hair you're no longer a valid Sikh. Refreshing.

Well, that is a moral code that the societies want to abide by to have a long married life together.
Would you let yourself or your spouse have sex outside your marriage provided that was your case?

Well, I certainly know groups who are polyamorous by choice. And often it works well for them. However that is VERY different from hidden cheating. Very.


If you meant sex before marriage, in other words, remain a virgin, then it is a different thing and is sadly favourable to the male gender than to the female one which is unfair.
Very true

What do you understand by 'bow down before ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ'?
Once you expand on what you mean by the above, then only I will be able to respond.

I don't really mean that it's "necessary", but it is certainly expected. I have even felt if I am going past the darbar hall without making appropriate bowing gestures, that people certainly look at me crooked. ;)
I suppose you mean drinking alcohol if I am not mistaken. We all know its mals. We see AA all around the world. DUI is a crime. Many kill and get killed while driving drunk daily. So, I have no idea what you are trying to convey. Would you please expand on it?

There is nothing wrong in being alcohol free. I myself have not had any since 2015. I feel no "need", and I was not an alcoholic at the time either. I would occasionally drink with my parents, a glass of wine or a beer. But after then I haven't, I just haven't had the desire. There are a lot of "holier than thous" who insist one should never drink. I realize it is an illness some can't stop once they start, but equally many people are quite capable of drinking sensibly, never drinking and driving, never getting violent under the influence, etc. So I don't see drinking as "all bad".

But that being said I think it is written in rehat maryada, based on guru Gobind singh Ji's 52 hukkams, not to drink?

Would you be kind enough to expand on the above as well, please? Thanks.

Surely you've heard of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 52 hukkams? I know many Sikhs consider them somewhat like "commandments", obligatory rules. Though I have also heard there is some disagreement over them (& rehat), as to who originally wrote them, politics etc.

But there are a lot of Sikhs who insist they are the code of conduct for all to follow otherwise you can't call yourself Sikh. Despite Sikh, as a word, meaning learner. I just find in general it's a bit hypocritical of people to say one instant that sikhi is a way of life (which I do often hear), and almost the next minute "oh but you're not a true Sikh if you drink/cut your hair(etc)"...

And I do hear it. Sometimes from the same people. Sometimes within a short period of time.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Interesting. I'm glad to see someone who isn't so caught up in dogma to insist if you dare cut your hair you're no longer a valid Sikh. Refreshing.

Sikhi is not dogmatic because it is not dependent on any deities. So, it has nothing to do with not getting caught up in dogma. It has a much deeper meaning though. The invaders at the time of Sikhi used to kidnap Hindu women and rape them. Sikhs used to get them back.
Hindu girls, until today are urged to get a turbaned Sikh taxi driver for their own safety. Sikhs were considered trustworthy by the Brits even though they treated them awfully bad. So, having a Sikh son in a Hindu family was a safety issue for the whole family and still is.

Well, I certainly know groups who are polyamorous by choice. And often it works well for them.

Yes, I know them too but that is not what we are talking about here. There are many polyamorous communities all around the world but that is not the mode de vie for the majority.

However that is VERY different from hidden cheating. Very.

So, you did mean adultery then when you said, "sex outside the marriage." And btw, cheating is always hidden.

I don't really mean that it's "necessary", but it is certainly expected. I have even felt if I am going past the darbar hall without making appropriate bowing gestures, that people certainly look at me crooked. ;)

What I am gathering from you and your emoji, bowing or not bowing has nothing to do with the SGGS but with people looking at you. I have no idea who these people are. I belong to an Interfaith Council. You may check my FB page under Teji Malik for more details as it is public. I get invited and invite people to Gurdawaras. Some of them bow, some do not. I do not find any problems with that.
Having said that, bowing has a different meaning as Harry explained it to you. So, I have no idea why you have to race your eyebrows up north for the things that you do not understand their significance.The only solution is to try to understand them in the context rather than protesting about it for naught.

There is nothing wrong in being alcohol free. I myself have not had any since 2015. I feel no "need", and I was not an alcoholic at the time either. I would occasionally drink with my parents, a glass of wine or a beer. But after then I haven't, I just haven't had the desire.

I used to drink too many moons ago. Not anymore. People who belong to LDS-Mormon church do not drink alcohol and coffee. If everyone knew what moderation is, then we would not be having drinking problems all over the world. So, I have no idea what you gripe is about refraining from drinking and smoking in Sikhi. I am a bit bewildered that you did not mention the latter.

There are a lot of "holier than thous" who insist one should never drink. I realize it is an illness some can't stop once they start, but equally many people are quite capable of drinking sensibly, never drinking and driving, never getting violent under the influence, etc. So I don't see drinking as "all bad".

I fail to understand what kind of satisfaction you get by talking about others in this way or with your emojis. I have no idea who is holier than thou here nor do I care because it does not affect me personally. I also think drinking is not that bad because perhaps I do not drink anymore but I drive people home during drinking holidays. I used to think drinking was a very good thing when I used to drink.

Surely you've heard of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 52 hukkams? I know many Sikhs consider them somewhat like "commandments", obligatory rules. Though I have also heard there is some disagreement over them (& rehat), as to who originally wrote them, politics etc.

I have no idea whether you are a Sikh or not. If you are the latter, then please stop scrutinising other religions' practices that do not have any effect on you.
What joy does it bring to you except disdain? I am very well aware of the 52 Hukumnaamas as they are called.

As far rehat is concerned and what is written in it, I wrote an article about the changes it needed and often, many years ago. You can find it here on SPN under my name.



Surely you've heard of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 52 hukkams? I know many Sikhs consider them somewhat like "commandments", obligatory rules. Though I have also heard there is some disagreement over them (& rehat), as to who originally wrote them, politics etc.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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Dear @Truthsikher31 ji

You are judging Sikhi from the crooked prism of misleading Vedic or Abrahamic interpretations. A philosophy, which has its roots firmly in immersed in applying common-sense and questioning everything... so judging it within the cultural boundaries of particular region is a little shortsightedness IMHO.

This very forum, which has its roots firmly rooted in Punjab, is the epitome of preciously opposite of all your notions. We firmly denounce all such fairly tales and anything which is inconsistent to common sense. I would request to spend sometime at SPN and read some of the threads. You will be pleasantly surprised. But you will have to spend sometime to discover these hidden nuggets. :)

Available English translations/transliterations do little justice to real Sikh philosophy and with due respect, most of the English speakers do even the worst job. So, your job is a little cut-out, being not from a non-Punjabi speaking and understanding background.

First step in learning would to be start from a clean slate... i.e. de-learning & re-learning.
A good starting point would be starting from Jup banee, the epitome of Sikh Philosophy. And good thing is that the followin discourse is in simple understandable English.

Understanding Jup Banee 1 | Dr. Karminder Singh Dhillon

All the best!

Aman Singh,
Thats great if SPN denounces "fairy tales" but like I mentioned in one of my replies, my resources are limited. I've turned to mostly online forums, YouTube videos, social media (FB, Twitter, etc.), and those other sources have some aggressive/abusive response - from the Sikhi side. You'll have responses like death to poster because they want to cut their hair, or dont believe in the same faith. Very hateful responses. Most of them do sound immature, could be youngsters who haven't matured or learned enough, or experienced much in life. Could be elder generations to, can't never tell. But I'm not judging those here in SPN, its just an overall observation i'm seeing.

I didnt mean literally by death sentence. But like most of our parents, and generations before would never give a proper debate if you asked something about Sikhi. And if you went complete rebel aka: cutting hair, or changing religions or leaving religion all together, then you were totally in the wrong. Online people can be anonymous, express their true feelings, and shut it down whenever they want. But imagine trying to taking such questions to older generations, or even take half these thoughts to places like Amritsar. There are still some new generations who are very hardcore, and can not tolerate anything negative being said to Sikhi, the Gurus, or SGGS
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
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Thats great if SPN denounces "fairy tales" but like I mentioned in one of my replies, my resources are limited
why

in the age of the internet why are your resources limited? I found myself in the same situation years ago, and then, the questions were not even being asked as often as they are now.

I've turned to mostly online forums, YouTube videos, social media (FB, Twitter, etc.

quality sources then!!

and those other sources have some aggressive/abusive response - from the Sikhi side.

what did you expect?

You'll have responses like death to poster because they want to cut their hair, or dont believe in the same faith. Very hateful responses. Most of them do sound immature, could be youngsters who haven't matured or learned enough, or experienced much in life. Could be elder generations to, can't never tell.
could be both,
But I'm not judging those here in SPN, its just an overall observation i'm seeing.
SPN is in a different league to the social media and youtube material you have come across, its a platform that encourages mature(on the whole) talk and logical and pragmatic discussion,
But like most of our parents, and generations before would never give a proper debate if you asked something about Sikhi. And if you went complete rebel aka: cutting hair, or changing religions or leaving religion all together, then you were totally in the wrong. Online people can be anonymous, express their true feelings, and shut it down whenever they want. But imagine trying to taking such questions to older generations, or even take half these thoughts to places like Amritsar. There are still some new generations who are very hardcore, and can not tolerate anything negative being said to Sikhi, the Gurus, or SGGS

the key is not to say anything negative, ask questions for sure, ask why, ask how, damn it, question everything, but there is no need to be negative
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,643
chazSingh,

Thanks for the reply. My approach to this post was to question beyond Sikhi, and when I say beyond I dont mean spiritually. Beyond as in what came before. Because most major events in history were inspired by or affected by events that came before. So when I started questioning Sikhi, why do we follow 5ks, how did it come about, how were Guru's chosen, even what did Gurus do on a daily basis. See like when people think of Jesus, they know baby Jesus and adult Jesus, but the bible and their history skip or never talk much about his journey or what he did or what events happen during that gap. So we to also have a Sikh history. It talks about the wars/battles, the miracles, the teachings, etc. So the Gurus unlike "Jesus" (who's like this God like being), the Gurus were just human. So they must have lives with their families. So I started wondering about their lives, and where it all started. What inspired Guru Nanak to take that step. But the world did not start with Sikhi or Guru Nanak. There is world history before that. And so if you start to going backwards in history, like what events were occurring prior to Sikhism, and things before those events. You can almost find the origins of "religion". Christianity and Islam, are few of the oldest religions. Some here comment that there were tribes in Africa that still exist today, or Hindus or Taoism came before Christians, fair enough I wont argue the validity of that. But Tribal worshipers, how much credit are you really going to give them. Their beliefs and thoughts were in a time of uncertainty. Really a Sun god, or Hinduism - multiple gods. Gods with multi arms, or elephants, or multi heads. Gimme a break. Hinduism would require a separate post. But still they all came before Sikhism. Sorry might have gone off topic from your reply

But for me, I would call myself a practicing Sikh. I have not taken Amrit, so don't practice all the 5ks, so guess according to some rules, can't be considered a Khalsa Sikh. But anyways, I've kept my Kesh my whole life. Didn't think much of it, just its my religion, we do it because we're born into a Sikh family and part of the Sikh community, so must follow what they say. Never questioning why, but whats fascinating, now that I'm older, have two kids of my own, I start to question all these thoughts. First choice was my parents, and do be honest they did not have much answers, and I feel like much of their generation never thought to question Sikism, hell you all know most women in our parents and grandparents times didnt have any equality. Can you imagine a woman raising half the questions on this Website to their parents. So my parents say I need to speak to a Bhai saab. I feel like majority won't have answers, they'll prolly say "It's God's will". I could be wrong, but lets face it, most Bhai Saabs are in it for non-spiritual reasons. Hell some sell CDs. I guess I'm on my own journey right now, and with what limited sources I have, I've turned to WWW. It's at least helped me to learn lil bit of Sikh history. And I'm trying to view things from a realistic, logical point of view. Not spiritual. And I might not ever be done with my search, but one question was the validity of religion(s). If Christians today can question and have valid proof that their religion isnt all that true - or not realistic, then that really questions the existence of God. Because even though religion is man made, they claim that it is the word of God that they do what they do. So if religions start with God, but God doesn't exist, then what does it say about the Gurus who created Sikhism.

I know I might be picking on Christianity a lot, but I question the validity of other religions (Islam, Hinduism, etc.) just the same. They all have hard to believe explanations.


keep contemplating brother...it will move you close to waheguru even when you think it isn't... :)

TRUTH has ALWAYS existed...we just need a nudge in the right direction from time to time... :) you are truth seeking all the time even when you think you have gone off the rails...

learn about the lives of the Guru's...but ultimately you will need to apply Gurbani in your life now...the present moment...when you get that moment...and you will...you'll never wonder or question again...you just need to be that explorer and make that effort with Simran....daily...anchor that mind...

everything written above by you is your mind trying to understand by logic and reasoning what this whole Shizzle we call life is about...ultimately your mind will fail...
the realization is from first hand experience...endless sea of possibilities...to surrender to His Will, and die (Ego - your character..your temporary character in this play)..

anyway i'm rambling now...but seriously...be that explorer...the Sikh...confront those 5 thieves that plague you within...those stingy basta*ds :) all your answers are there within you...
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 9, 2011
1,053
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London UK
Are you able to respond to my questions?
Forgive me for the late response. I'm inundated with work right now, but will have a go. Pls note, I wont be able to give extensive answers, but rather, off-the-cuff explanations!

Thank you
That's quite a statement to make please elaborate and qualify your opinion..
It's not my opinion, convention deem Sikh a religion and religion as you know is something that supports the idea God or a superhuman agency.
I don't necessarily disagree with it but it suggests that the pursuit of truth and the application of critical thinking is not required..but rather blind faith..
..yes Sukh, the nature of truth [satnam] sought n found by Nanak wasn't through intellectual inquiry, but through belief>faith. Why ? Because satnam is beyond time n space - metaphysical, in terms of existence.
Can you please provide examples of revelation..?
..much of SGGSJ is a revelation, classic of which is your "anand sahib ji".
Sikhs speak to God..? Hhhhmmm curious.. Recitations are a medium of communicating with God..? Which mantra should we be reciting ?
..language of love
Naam japo.. Recite naam , sat naam =truth is the name..
Always speak truth?
..granted ! anyone [atheist] can speak truth, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a desired result - God.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
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told you...., mind you, this chap manages to avoid the same question 12 times !



[
 
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Christianity has many flaws, and yet it's one of the oldest and first religions. Religion is supposed to be the word of God. Yet science, common sense, and flat out ignorant teachings show that Christianity has many flaws or is just wrong and not real. So then what makes Sikhism so right and real. The bible and idea of Jesus was created 1000s of years ago, and is very hard to believe in their so called miracles, and yet Sikhism is only few hundred years old. Am I to believe "God" talked to the white man 1000s of years ago, sent his son only to take him back, and then waited 1000s of years later to speak to 10 gurus in a span of 100 years, in which they perform miracles of their own, and then never to be heard from anyone again. Since the 10th guru, no one legitammly has claiimed to spoken to God. And in today's time if one says they saw him or spoke to him, we' d call them crazy.
To me Sikhism is just another man made up religion. There is another post on this site that shows through sikh history how it's a male dominant religion . Just like every other religion, which were created 100s and 1000s of years ago.
Better you come to the point. your post is vague as it only questions if Sikh religion is a religion or a sect?
The Sikh Gurus never learnt art of performing miracles. Islam impose three conditions to declare someone as Prophet or Nabi.
1- followerrs,
2- religious book,
3- ability tho perform miracles.
And the Siklh Gurus were blessed with these qualities.
it ts took 239 years to finally declare Sikh as religion.
Sikh religion is now a complete, distinct, sovereign religion which guarantee its followers to take care of them right from birth to salvation after death.
 

Ishna

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SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,261
5,192
Christianity has many flaws, and yet it's one of the oldest and first religions. Religion is supposed to be the word of God. Yet science, common sense, and flat out ignorant teachings show that Christianity has many flaws or is just wrong and not real. So then what makes Sikhism so right and real. The bible and idea of Jesus was created 1000s of years ago, and is very hard to believe in their so called miracles, and yet Sikhism is only few hundred years old. Am I to believe "God" talked to the white man 1000s of years ago, sent his son only to take him back, and then waited 1000s of years later to speak to 10 gurus in a span of 100 years, in which they perform miracles of their own, and then never to be heard from anyone again. Since the 10th guru, no one legitammly has claiimed to spoken to God. And in today's time if one says they saw him or spoke to him, we' d call them crazy.
To me Sikhism is just another man made up religion. There is another post on this site that shows through sikh history how it's a male dominant religion . Just like every other religion, which were created 100s and 1000s of years ago.

Christianity isn't one of the oldest and first religions. Here's a graphic timeline so you can get some better perspective. It was created, lets be generous and say 2000 years ago, and came out of Judaism with an injection of Greek culture.

Religion doesn't mean 'the word of God'. It comes from a Latin word and means something more like "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods" and "obligation, the bond between man and the gods", or even to "reconnect with god". At any rate, 'religion' is a modern Western concept and the misapplication of it might really be messing up communication about Sikhi.

And what does "white man" have to do with this? Christianity is a Middle-Eastern religion that invaded Europe via Greece and Rome.

Sikh Gurus weren't miracle makers.

And yes, religions (in the broadest use of the word) are man-made insofar as we are humans and can only compute with our human minds. Most religions I've come across have kernels of common spiritual insight in them. It's just the wrapping that is different. Sometimes the wrapping can be stifling and a adherent can't get to the insights buried under layer upon layer of convoluted man-made religion. In my experience, Sikhi has one of the thinnest layers you can find. It is still layered with cultural and mythological stuff only relevant to the culture of the people it grew up in (like patriarchal baggage and references to Hindu myths and concepts) , but the 'common spiritual insights' in it are clear and many. They are the pearls. Do you see them?
 
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