BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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I request someone (other than Singh ji) to please explain to me how that disproves anything I said. I may have confirmation bias so maybe i am not picking up on the part that apparently disproves me.
Atheism If I Don't Believe In God, Is Sikhism Pretty Pointless?
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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That is discriminating people based on their beliefs, which I didn't expect from you.
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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I think the answer to that question should be simply, God is both sargun and nirgun. Even saying that is not enough but those two words sum up all the possible "qualities" of God. It includes the definitions for God of all faiths even including atheism and such, and in short, brings people together rather than separate them.
I think the answer to that question should be simply, God is both sargun and nirgun. Even saying that is not enough but those two words sum up all the possible "qualities" of God. It includes the definitions for God of all faiths even including atheism and such, and in short, brings people together rather than separate them.
Sikhism does not include the defintion of an atheist God because atheist do not BELEIVE IN A GOD OR MANY GODS. Atheism says there is no God. Now what does Sikhism say on God or many Gods. Here it is at the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
One Universal Creator God. ang 1
Now, Sikhism says that there is Only One God Period AND on the other hand we have atheism No God. Sikhism and Atheism are COMPLETE OPPOSITE IN BELIEVING IN GOD. Even though God is nothing there is still a God; God is that nothing and God is that everything. God has every attribute and no attribute, but just because he does not have even one attribute does not mean he does not exist. God exist without no attribute, but at the end there is still a God.
now, i'll post my first post here once again to go deeper into what Guru ji says about faithful people and faithless people.
In Jap ji Sahib on ang 3 Guru ji describes faithful people; ones who believe in God. Also Guru ji reminds the forgotten about the faithful in the morning for Jap ji Sahib is read in Amrit Vaylaa.
The state of the faithful cannot be described. One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt. No paper, no pen, no scribe can record the state of the faithful. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 12 || The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence. The faithful know about all worlds and realms. The faithful shall never be struck across the face. The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 13 || The path of the faithful shall never be blocked. The faithful shall depart with honor and fame. The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals. The faithful are firmly bound to the Dharma. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 14 || The faithful find the Door of Liberation. The faithful uplift and redeem their family and relations. The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru. The faithful, O Nanak, do not wander around begging. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. || 15 || ang 3
Then before going to bed a Sikh reads Kirtan Sohila and here Guru ji tells us about faithless cynical people.
RAAG GAUREE POORBEE, FOURTH MEHL: The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint. By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord.s Love. || 1 || Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit. Bow down before Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. || 1 || Pause || The wicked shaaktas, the faithless cynics, do not know the Taste of the Lord.s Sublime Essence. The thorn of egotism is embedded deep within them. The more they walk away, the deeper it pierces them, and the more they suffer in pain, until finally, the Messenger of Death smashes his club against their heads. || 2 || ang 13
Here Guru ji reminds us before going to bed that faithless cynics do not reach the one Lord. For there skeptical ways have drowned them in egotism
Here are some other shabads that disagree with what you have said.
SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: Discarding the Ambrosial Nectar, they greedily grab the poison; they serve others, instead of the Lord. They lose their faith, they have no understanding; night and day, they suffer in pain. The blind, self-willed manmukhs do not even think of the Lord; they are drowned to death without water. || 1 || O mind, vibrate and meditate forever on the Lord; seek the Protection of His Sanctuary. If the Word of the Guru.s Shabad abides deep within, then you shall not forget the Lord. || 1 || Pause || ang 31
Here Guru ji is telling us those without faith in the One Lord do not serve the Lord, they serve others. And at the end they do not meet the One Lord
Engrossed in egotism, the world perishes. It dies and is re-born; it continues coming and going in reincarnation. The self-willed manmukhs do not recognize the Shabad; they forfeit their honor, and depart in disgrace. Ang 33
Serving the Guru, the Name is obtained, and one remains absorbed in the True Lord. || 3 || With faith in the Shabad, the Guru is found, and selfishness is eradicated from within. Night and day, worship the True Lord with devotion and love forever. The Treasure of the Naam abides in the mind; O Nanak, in the poise of perfect balance, merge into the Lord. || 4 || 19 || 52|| ang 34
This last shabad that I will present sums up everything
Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad.they take their cleansing baths, and give to charity again and again, but they are ultimately consumed by their love of duality. When the Dear Lord Himself grants His Grace, they are inspired to love the Naam. O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. || 5 || 20 || 53 || ang 34
In this shabad Guru ji makes it crystal clear that one can give to charity again and again but if he/she do not have faith in the One Lord then they are consumed in the love of duality.
A Sikh is a Sikh who believes in the One Lord. And it does matter if a Sikh believes in the One Lord. Just read the above shabads to know why.
To believe in God means to believe in the creative being personified, no fear, no hatred, beyond birth, and self existent. One can sever others, but without faith in the One Lord they are only serving the people for they do not serve the One Lord. To serve the One Lord means to serve the One Lord with love and faith in your heart toward the One Lord and serving others will be serving the One Lord.
Refer to post number 44 to see if I discriminated against anyone as you have stated.
Here is what i wrote in a different thread, which speaks on agnostic and atheist and relates to this topic
Also your remark on saying I am an agnostic or atheist is against Sikhi. The first Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji are, One Universal Creator God. What other proof does one need? A Sikh must have faith in their Guru otherwise one is lossed in his own mind. Agnostic deny that one cannot prove that God exist, so they infact are rejecting the first shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Then atheist deny there is a God and this is also rejecting the first shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. A Sikh does not reject any bani written by the Gurus no matter what. To ask question about Gurbani is one thing but to challenge Gurbani is completely a selfish act and there will be consequences for it.
Also your remark on saying I am an agnostic or atheist is against Sikhi. The first Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji are, One Universal Creator God. What other proof does one need? A Sikh must have faith in their Guru otherwise one is lossed in his own mind. Agnostic deny that one cannot prove that God exist, so they infact are rejecting the first shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Then atheist deny there is a God and this is also rejecting the first shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. A Sikh does not reject any bani written by the Gurus no matter what. To ask question about Gurbani is one thing but to challenge Gurbani is completely a selfish act and there will be consequences for it.
we had an interesting discussion on what is God on here:
http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-youth/14899-sikh-girls-who-do-not-cut-3.html
I was also looking into monism and pantheism, it has been suggested by some learned sikhs that these concepts are related to sikhi including ek onkar.
Monism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and this threa is interesting about nirgun and sargun:
http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/269-sargun-nirgun-2.html
http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-youth/14899-sikh-girls-who-do-not-cut-3.html
I was also looking into monism and pantheism, it has been suggested by some learned sikhs that these concepts are related to sikhi including ek onkar.
Monism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and this threa is interesting about nirgun and sargun:
http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/269-sargun-nirgun-2.html
Archived_Member5
(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
To respond adequately to your post one must be able to define ‘What is God’. The SGGS gives a clear description of the Creator and Supreme Spirit in its scriptures. Some faiths attribute great atrocities to the same said God. Although Sikhism attributes all acts as being of God, or with his tacit approval {Daat kare Daatar} empirical evidence will state this as nonsensical as anything impure or corrupted with sin, anger wrathfulness being the main components of sin nature cannot be ascribed to what we understand as the Supreme and Pure formidable power of the Supreme Spirit.
We witness at this time atheists who terrorise verbally the faithful devout followers of God seeking ‘evidence of the existence of this supernatural and perfect deity. Evidence is quantified as a spiritual awakening, a self realisation and the gaining of one’s higher super consciousness. It is only then the transcended mind purified of any egotism, hate or contaminants liable to distort perfect thinking, can discern the true and pure higher dimensional nature of God by entering the highest realm.
Sikhism clearly defines Gods attributes and shows the requisite path and attributes, actions and chartered course to supreme realisation. Sikhism akin to Buddhism moved away from Hinduistic idolatry worship, occultism and rituals steeped in traditions toward the application of scriptural wisdom and truth to one’s life as the way to divine enlightenment. It is atheist in the true sense of the word in that Sikhism supersedes such allegories, the acts and deeds of ‘Gods’ likely to conflict with the given doctrine of the pure reason of truth and the word.
Yes one can follow the path of Sikhism orthodox or philosophical if one has rejected what are the earthly and all too human God or Gods.
Bhagavati Chhand|| Tva Prasaadh||
BHAGVATI STANZA. BY THY GRACE
Ki zaahar zahoor hain|| Ki haazar hazoor hain||
That Thou art visible illumination. That Thou art All-Prevading.
Hamesul salaam hain|| Samastul kalaam hain||150||
That Thou art reviver of Eternal conpliments. That Thou art Venerated by all. 150
Ki saahib dimaag hain|| Ki husnal charaag hain||
That Thou art Most Intelligent. That Thou art the Lamp of Beauty.
Ki kaamal karoom hain|| Ki raazak rahoom hain||151||
That Thou art completely Generous. That Thou art Sustainer and Merciful.151.
Ki rozi dihind hain|| Ki raazak rahind hain||
That Thou art Giver of Sustenance. That Thou art ever the Sustainer.
Karoomul kamaal hain|| Ki husnal jamaal hain||152||
That Thou art the perfection of Generosity. That Thou art Most Beautiful. 152.
Ghanoomul khiraaj hain|| Gharoobul nivaaz hain||
That Thou art the Penaliser of enemies. That Thou art the Supporter of the poor.
Harooful shikann hain|| Hiraasul fikann hain||153||
That Thou art the Destroyer of enemies That Thou art the remover of Fear. 153.
Kalankang pranaas hain|| Samastul nivaas hain||
That Thou art the Destroyer of blemishes. That Thou art the dweller in all.
Aganjul ganoom hain|| Rajaaik rahoom hain||154||
That Thou art invincible by enemies. That Thou art the Sustainer and Gracious. 154
.
Samastul jubaanhain|| Ki saahibkiraan hain||
That Thou art the Master of all languages. That Thou art the Most Glorious.
Ki narakang pranaas Bahistul nivaas hain||155||
That Thou art the Destroyer of hell. That Thou art the dweller in heaven.155.
Ki sarabul gavann hain|| Hamesul ravann hain||
That Thou art the Giver to all. That Thou art ever Blissful.
Tamaamul tamooj hain|| Samastul ajooj hain||156||
That Thou art the knower of all. That Thou art dearest to all. 156.
Parang param oos hain|| Samastul adoos hain||
That Thou art the Lord of lords. That Thou art hidden from all.
Adesul alekh hain|| Hamesul abhekh hain||157||
That Thou art countryless and accountless. That Thou art ever garbles. 157.
Zamoonul zamaa hain|| Amookul imaa hain||
That Thou art in Earth and Heaven.. That Thou art Most Profound in signs.
Karoomul kamaal hain|| Ki jurat(i) jamaal hain||158||
That Thou art Most Generous. That Thou art embodiment of courage and beauty.
Ki achalang prakaas hain|| Ki amito subaas hain||
That Thou art perpetual illumination. That Thou art Limitless fragrance.
Ki ajab saroop hain|| Ki amito bibhoot hain||159||
That Thou art wonderful entity. That Thou art Limitless Grandeur. 159.
Ki amito pasaa hain|| Ki aatam prabhaa hain||
That Thou art Limitless Expanse. That Thou art selfluminous.
Ki achalang anang hain|| Ki amito abhang hain
That Thou art Steady and Limbless. That Thou art Infinite and Indestructible.
We witness at this time atheists who terrorise verbally the faithful devout followers of God seeking ‘evidence of the existence of this supernatural and perfect deity. Evidence is quantified as a spiritual awakening, a self realisation and the gaining of one’s higher super consciousness. It is only then the transcended mind purified of any egotism, hate or contaminants liable to distort perfect thinking, can discern the true and pure higher dimensional nature of God by entering the highest realm.
Sikhism clearly defines Gods attributes and shows the requisite path and attributes, actions and chartered course to supreme realisation. Sikhism akin to Buddhism moved away from Hinduistic idolatry worship, occultism and rituals steeped in traditions toward the application of scriptural wisdom and truth to one’s life as the way to divine enlightenment. It is atheist in the true sense of the word in that Sikhism supersedes such allegories, the acts and deeds of ‘Gods’ likely to conflict with the given doctrine of the pure reason of truth and the word.
Yes one can follow the path of Sikhism orthodox or philosophical if one has rejected what are the earthly and all too human God or Gods.
Bhagavati Chhand|| Tva Prasaadh||
BHAGVATI STANZA. BY THY GRACE
Ki zaahar zahoor hain|| Ki haazar hazoor hain||
That Thou art visible illumination. That Thou art All-Prevading.
Hamesul salaam hain|| Samastul kalaam hain||150||
That Thou art reviver of Eternal conpliments. That Thou art Venerated by all. 150
Ki saahib dimaag hain|| Ki husnal charaag hain||
That Thou art Most Intelligent. That Thou art the Lamp of Beauty.
Ki kaamal karoom hain|| Ki raazak rahoom hain||151||
That Thou art completely Generous. That Thou art Sustainer and Merciful.151.
Ki rozi dihind hain|| Ki raazak rahind hain||
That Thou art Giver of Sustenance. That Thou art ever the Sustainer.
Karoomul kamaal hain|| Ki husnal jamaal hain||152||
That Thou art the perfection of Generosity. That Thou art Most Beautiful. 152.
Ghanoomul khiraaj hain|| Gharoobul nivaaz hain||
That Thou art the Penaliser of enemies. That Thou art the Supporter of the poor.
Harooful shikann hain|| Hiraasul fikann hain||153||
That Thou art the Destroyer of enemies That Thou art the remover of Fear. 153.
Kalankang pranaas hain|| Samastul nivaas hain||
That Thou art the Destroyer of blemishes. That Thou art the dweller in all.
Aganjul ganoom hain|| Rajaaik rahoom hain||154||
That Thou art invincible by enemies. That Thou art the Sustainer and Gracious. 154
.
Samastul jubaanhain|| Ki saahibkiraan hain||
That Thou art the Master of all languages. That Thou art the Most Glorious.
Ki narakang pranaas Bahistul nivaas hain||155||
That Thou art the Destroyer of hell. That Thou art the dweller in heaven.155.
Ki sarabul gavann hain|| Hamesul ravann hain||
That Thou art the Giver to all. That Thou art ever Blissful.
Tamaamul tamooj hain|| Samastul ajooj hain||156||
That Thou art the knower of all. That Thou art dearest to all. 156.
Parang param oos hain|| Samastul adoos hain||
That Thou art the Lord of lords. That Thou art hidden from all.
Adesul alekh hain|| Hamesul abhekh hain||157||
That Thou art countryless and accountless. That Thou art ever garbles. 157.
Zamoonul zamaa hain|| Amookul imaa hain||
That Thou art in Earth and Heaven.. That Thou art Most Profound in signs.
Karoomul kamaal hain|| Ki jurat(i) jamaal hain||158||
That Thou art Most Generous. That Thou art embodiment of courage and beauty.
Ki achalang prakaas hain|| Ki amito subaas hain||
That Thou art perpetual illumination. That Thou art Limitless fragrance.
Ki ajab saroop hain|| Ki amito bibhoot hain||159||
That Thou art wonderful entity. That Thou art Limitless Grandeur. 159.
Ki amito pasaa hain|| Ki aatam prabhaa hain||
That Thou art Limitless Expanse. That Thou art selfluminous.
Ki achalang anang hain|| Ki amito abhang hain
That Thou art Steady and Limbless. That Thou art Infinite and Indestructible.
Guru Nanak's purpose was not to say if God existed or not, to him it DID NOT matter! His purpose was to improve the state of humanity. He used God's name to do that since everyone could relate to God. So he said we all are the children of the same God (or the concept of God, it doesn't matter(quote Bhagat Singh Ji).
Your assumptions have no limits. I wonder how some time you ignore facts but embrace assumptions. Above statement of yours is your own assumption based on faulty information or fake declaration on Guru Nanak’s God. Let me prove ( I know, there is no hope you will accept the truth but I will do it at least for the sake of others)
Guru Nanak starts with expressing God in Mool Mantra where he calls Lord a reality, having existence.( Sat Naam)
Next, when Guru says my God is only one, not only he accepts him real but fortifies his views expressed in Mool Mantra, please read on
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Sāhib merā eko hai. Ėko hai bẖā▫ī eko hai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
My Lord is but one. He is one alone, O brother. He is one in one. Pause.
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਲੇਵੈ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੨॥ (SGGS350)
Āpe māre āpe cẖẖodai āpe levai ḏe▫e. Āpe vekẖai āpe vigsai āpe naḏar kare▫i. ||2||
He Himself annihilates and Himself releases. He of Himself takes and of Himself gives. He Himself beholds and Himself rejoices. He Himself casts His merciful glance.
Why here stress is given on His being one with enormous power of annihilating and liberating. If Guru Nanak has any doubts(as you do) about Him, why would he start expressing Him as a realty and then being only the one who has power to finish and liberate? Look at another Guru Vaak where His existence is described as permanent compare to all seen creation
ਸਭ ਦੁਨੀ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣੀ ਮੁਕਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਰਹੀਮੁ ॥੬॥
Sabẖ ḏunī āvaṇ jāvṇī mukām ek rahīm. ||6||
All the world comes and goes-only the Merciful Lord is permanent. ||6||
ਮਃ 1
Problem is this that there are some out there to preach that Guru Nanak just didn’t believe in God but only interested in improving the society, well here is for them
ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਝੂਠੇ ਕੁਚਲ ਕਛੋਤਿ ॥(SGGS 831)
Nām binā jẖūṯẖe kucẖal kacẖẖoṯ.
Those who lack the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are false, filthy and untouchable.
If it doesn’t matter he exists or not why Guru would call people having no Lohttp://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=558&punjabi=t&id=24655#l24655rd’s name in heart are filthy? And here is how Guru Nanak feels about the Lord
ਪੰਨਾ 558, ਸਤਰ 6
ਤੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਜਿ ਆਖੈ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਦੀਜੈ ॥
Ŧai sāhib kī bāṯ jė ākẖai kaho Nānak ki▫ā ḏījai.
One who brings me a message from my Lord and Master - says Nanak, what shall I give to Him?
ਮਃ 1
Your assumptions have no limits. I wonder how some time you ignore facts but embrace assumptions. Above statement of yours is your own assumption based on faulty information or fake declaration on Guru Nanak’s God. Let me prove ( I know, there is no hope you will accept the truth but I will do it at least for the sake of others)
Guru Nanak starts with expressing God in Mool Mantra where he calls Lord a reality, having existence.( Sat Naam)
Next, when Guru says my God is only one, not only he accepts him real but fortifies his views expressed in Mool Mantra, please read on
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Sāhib merā eko hai. Ėko hai bẖā▫ī eko hai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
My Lord is but one. He is one alone, O brother. He is one in one. Pause.
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਲੇਵੈ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੨॥ (SGGS350)
Āpe māre āpe cẖẖodai āpe levai ḏe▫e. Āpe vekẖai āpe vigsai āpe naḏar kare▫i. ||2||
He Himself annihilates and Himself releases. He of Himself takes and of Himself gives. He Himself beholds and Himself rejoices. He Himself casts His merciful glance.
Why here stress is given on His being one with enormous power of annihilating and liberating. If Guru Nanak has any doubts(as you do) about Him, why would he start expressing Him as a realty and then being only the one who has power to finish and liberate? Look at another Guru Vaak where His existence is described as permanent compare to all seen creation
ਸਭ ਦੁਨੀ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣੀ ਮੁਕਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਰਹੀਮੁ ॥੬॥
Sabẖ ḏunī āvaṇ jāvṇī mukām ek rahīm. ||6||
All the world comes and goes-only the Merciful Lord is permanent. ||6||
ਮਃ 1
Problem is this that there are some out there to preach that Guru Nanak just didn’t believe in God but only interested in improving the society, well here is for them
ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਝੂਠੇ ਕੁਚਲ ਕਛੋਤਿ ॥(SGGS 831)
Nām binā jẖūṯẖe kucẖal kacẖẖoṯ.
Those who lack the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are false, filthy and untouchable.
If it doesn’t matter he exists or not why Guru would call people having no Lohttp://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=558&punjabi=t&id=24655#l24655rd’s name in heart are filthy? And here is how Guru Nanak feels about the Lord
ਪੰਨਾ 558, ਸਤਰ 6
ਤੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਜਿ ਆਖੈ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਦੀਜੈ ॥
Ŧai sāhib kī bāṯ jė ākẖai kaho Nānak ki▫ā ḏījai.
One who brings me a message from my Lord and Master - says Nanak, what shall I give to Him?
ਮਃ 1
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BhagatSingh
SPNer
- Apr 24, 2006
- 2,921
- 1,656
EDIt: You have to look at how Guru Nanak defines God.
BhagatSingh
SPNer
- Apr 24, 2006
- 2,921
- 1,656
There’s a change in my post above, if anyone cares.
Only he has no limits.
Logically, its impossible to have two almighties. If he had said taht we have two Gods, it wouldn't have made sense.
I could not find this but nonetheless, I will aswer.
To answer it we must consider a theory proposed by neurobiologists that “God” is wired into our brains. Now does that explain why God is permanent and the world comes and goes?
I don’t think so. So what does Guru Nanak mean by “lacking naam, the name of the Lord”?...
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=558&punjabi=t&id=24655 / l24655
I am thinking it has something to do with getting people to connect with God, ultimately resulting in liberation. meaning the message is something that connects one with God. And of course, Guru Nanak describes the process of connecting and getting liberation, through, selfless service, honest living, etc.
If my assumptions had no limits, I would be God.
Only he has no limits.And I wonder why you keep assuming that I assume.
No , I think its a socialist take on Nanakian Philosophy, not sure if this is 100% accurate but it made sense. Those are not my views, in fact, many things I say on the forum aren't my views.:yes:
right... you should be glad that I can tolerate such statements.
I am pretty sure "satnam" means true name i.e. God's name is true.
Ok so Guru Nanak says that to unite everyone. He goes no one is hindu no ones a muslim, we are all children of the same (I can add "One") God.
Logically, its impossible to have two almighties. If he had said taht we have two Gods, it wouldn't have made sense.
now you have to look at how guru Nanak says taht one can be liberated! Teh way Guru Nnak suggests is very practical and serves a purpose to elevate the condition of humanity. Simply recall: selfless service and honest living, without going much deeper.
</B>
I could not find this but nonetheless, I will aswer.
To answer it we must consider a theory proposed by neurobiologists that “God” is wired into our brains. Now does that explain why God is permanent and the world comes and goes?
I didn’t know that. Well, I am not one of them.
So Guru Nanak declares atheists filthy and untouchable?
I don’t think so. So what does Guru Nanak mean by “lacking naam, the name of the Lord”?...
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=558&punjabi=t&id=24655 / l24655
This is an emotional and poetic statement. I read the whole shabad but didn’t quite understand what “message from my Lord and Master” is exactly. Explain this one to me.
I am thinking it has something to do with getting people to connect with God, ultimately resulting in liberation. meaning the message is something that connects one with God. And of course, Guru Nanak describes the process of connecting and getting liberation, through, selfless service, honest living, etc.
There’s a change in my post above, if anyone cares.
If my assumptions had no limits, I would be God.Only he has no limits.
You are not an assumption; you are a human being, so wake up
And I wonder why you keep assuming that I assume.
Your addressed statement what Guru thinks about God.is your assumption, here it is ”if God existed or not, to him it DID NOT matter…quote Bhagat Singh ji”Fact, Guru doesn’t think as Bhagat Singh thinks, thank God!
No , I think its a socialist take on Nanakian Philosophy, not sure if this is 100% accurate but it made sense. Those are not my views, in fact, many things I say on the forum aren't my view
I addressed what you wrote above, those views are definitely yours
right... you should be glad that I can tolerate such statements.
I have experience with you; one example will do, taking the word “day” used as metaphor as your reaction “night and day are the same” is pretty much a display the mind- set. You remember, don’t you? So That is why I wrote this, even your this very post proves what I predicted. You have been openly writing against SGGS Ji by judging SGGS as the one that blinds others, we have been tolerating it, now it hurts when it comes to your inflated conceit? Cool off !
I am pretty sure "satnam" means true name i.e. God's name is true.
Go and check its origin, it means the one having existence, its origin is “satya” means the one that has existence. Dr Sahib Singh states that in detail, he was a master of Sanskrit from where the word is coming unlike you or me.
Ok so Guru Nanak says that to unite everyone. He goes no one is hindu no ones a muslim, we are all children of the same (I can add "One") God
That is your understanding, the interpreter has explained a far better than you think.
Logically, its impossible to have two almighties. If he had said taht we have two Gods, it wouldn't have made sense.
Again, what you are saying has nothing to do what I pointed to you, while defining God as only the one to who people give Him different names; Guru ji confirms His faith in Him. Your jumping from here to there goes on as usual
now you have to look at how Guru Nanak says taht one can be liberated! Teh way Guru Nnak suggests is very practical and serves a purpose to elevate the condition of humanity. Simply recall: selfless service and honest living, without going much deeper.
It is the power of the Lord defined without other assumptions you are attaching to it.
So Guru Nanak declares atheists filthy and untouchable?
That is what Guru Nanak thinks about them as they have filth of self-conceit; through it they mislead others in context of God. You havent gone to the underline meaning of filth! Have you?
I don’t think so. So what does Guru Nanak mean by “lacking naam, the name of the Lord”?...
Lacking the Lord’s Name, lack means not to have the Lord’s name in heart, not to have Him in memory.
I could not find this but nonetheless, I will aswer.
To answer it we must consider a theory proposed by neurobiologists that “God” is wired into our brains. Now does that explain why God is permanent and the world comes and goes?
I only believe in Guru Nanak, not neurologists. You want to, it doesn’t matter to me but don’t teach Sikhi through these neurologists please. Guru Nanak says only the Lord is permanent not His creation Period, it is that simple.
I didn’t know that. Well, I am not one of them.
The quote of your I addressed proves that you are one of them
This is an emotional and poetic statement. I read the whole shabad but didn’t quite understand what “message from my Lord and Master” is exactly. Explain this one to me.
I am thinking it has something to do with getting people to connect with God, ultimately resulting in liberation. meaning the message is something that connects one with God. And of course, Guru Nanak describes the process of connecting and getting liberation, through, selfless service, honest living, etc.
To explain to you is just like playing good music before a person who has no inclination for it.. This is my experience with you. All above stated interpretation of yours proves that you are here simply to split hair. I like honest inquiries not mind games. You like it, keep beating the drums of your “mei na manu( I will not accept any reason”) and enjoy it. Message has been conveyed with the support of Gurbani with pretty much good interpretation by Dr Sahib Singh ji and S. Manmohan Singh Ji
BhagatSingh
SPNer
- Apr 24, 2006
- 2,921
- 1,656
You are right and I am wrong.:yes:
I know nothing.
I know nothing.
Archived_Member5
(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
As the evil has taken Gods mantle and brings speculation and anger towards what is God*, thus is the case for atheism. Atheism is a superseding and rejection of textural allegories as anything other than biased witness accounts. The traditional nature of atheism is to be atheist, to take the perfect reason, truth and wisdom of scriptures and reject what are questionable and untenable accounts that overshadow debate of religion and devalue what is a sound premise of absolute truth.
Unbelivers are vile godless heathens it is true. Look at those who seek to aggrandise themselves whilst undermining the word of God that is religion by adjudging it according to the dispensations of the ministers it has had the misfortune of interacting with. They are unbelivers, or non belivers usually refereed to when they rebelling against the churches as Godless heathens. They do not arise is Sikhism purely because Sikhism is a perfect sound philosophy and spiritual; path.
Christianity condemned and crucified The Father chose Barabbas an evil man in his stead, stoned and whipped him before he finally died. Islam in its Quran has greatly defamed the Prophet Mohammed, Hinduism supports and worships animal deities and an evil oppressive feminist witch, all religions have destroyed their own Fathers in favour of the Almighty’s enemies. Modern social ills arising from the contradictory nature of these religions is giving religion a bad name not God or religion itself. Science can perfectly validate each truth as it is based upon self evident reason. Philosophy teaches the truth seeker how facts, data and knowledge are combined and constructed to complete truths.
The premise of godless heathen, unbelievers is flawed, faulty and readily deconstructed when the root cause of all evil is known.
At to the physical manifestation of the Supreme Spirit, humanity has varying degrees of this spirit, where it is manifested in man we find strong Spirits of Sainthood, Philosophers, Poets, Pioneers, Visionaries, Peacemakers and Preachers. It is inherent where humanity is found, humanity itself is corrupted by carnal nature and lacking in the virtues, peace, love and the ability to supplicate the mind to the pure truth.
The world is ruled by two opposing dual power of Good and evil. This duality is manifest in most humans who no matter how religious lack the spirit of godliness. Kalyug is the Supreme power battling with the dark forces of evil and traversed subversion, causing social disorder, the rise of sin and carnal nature and the war and battling it causes. Mans task is to rid all the sin nature of kam krodh hanker etc within him, about him and in the world. Man is but a reflective fragment of his universe. Some contain higher measures of piety and the Spirit to virtue and good whilst others struggle to find truth and battle with the barriers within them in doing so.
It is conquered by love and understanding, a love and understanding taken by the media and its demagogues whilst being looting and pillaging religion, the people pastoral shrine and sanctum of spiritual liberation and universal freedom
Unbelivers are vile godless heathens it is true. Look at those who seek to aggrandise themselves whilst undermining the word of God that is religion by adjudging it according to the dispensations of the ministers it has had the misfortune of interacting with. They are unbelivers, or non belivers usually refereed to when they rebelling against the churches as Godless heathens. They do not arise is Sikhism purely because Sikhism is a perfect sound philosophy and spiritual; path.
Christianity condemned and crucified The Father chose Barabbas an evil man in his stead, stoned and whipped him before he finally died. Islam in its Quran has greatly defamed the Prophet Mohammed, Hinduism supports and worships animal deities and an evil oppressive feminist witch, all religions have destroyed their own Fathers in favour of the Almighty’s enemies. Modern social ills arising from the contradictory nature of these religions is giving religion a bad name not God or religion itself. Science can perfectly validate each truth as it is based upon self evident reason. Philosophy teaches the truth seeker how facts, data and knowledge are combined and constructed to complete truths.
The premise of godless heathen, unbelievers is flawed, faulty and readily deconstructed when the root cause of all evil is known.
At to the physical manifestation of the Supreme Spirit, humanity has varying degrees of this spirit, where it is manifested in man we find strong Spirits of Sainthood, Philosophers, Poets, Pioneers, Visionaries, Peacemakers and Preachers. It is inherent where humanity is found, humanity itself is corrupted by carnal nature and lacking in the virtues, peace, love and the ability to supplicate the mind to the pure truth.
The world is ruled by two opposing dual power of Good and evil. This duality is manifest in most humans who no matter how religious lack the spirit of godliness. Kalyug is the Supreme power battling with the dark forces of evil and traversed subversion, causing social disorder, the rise of sin and carnal nature and the war and battling it causes. Mans task is to rid all the sin nature of kam krodh hanker etc within him, about him and in the world. Man is but a reflective fragment of his universe. Some contain higher measures of piety and the Spirit to virtue and good whilst others struggle to find truth and battle with the barriers within them in doing so.
It is conquered by love and understanding, a love and understanding taken by the media and its demagogues whilst being looting and pillaging religion, the people pastoral shrine and sanctum of spiritual liberation and universal freedom
The statement "If I don't believe in God.... Is Sikhism pretty pointless" is a frivolous observation. It is like telling "If I don't believe in my father... Is Family System Pretty Pointless?". Yes and No. It is pointless for disbeliever, no for a believer. The pillar of Sikhism is unflinching trust in Guru and God. Guru Arjan Dev Ji said in Sukhmani Sahib
"ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਾਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਤਤੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਇਆ"
"One whose heart is filled with faith in God- the essence of spiritual wisdom is revealed to his mind."
And if one doesn't believe in God, Sikhism is really pointless to her/him. All other teachings of Sikhism (for Better living and so and so) will not help that person in the end. It is like a dead body getting decorated. As Guru Arjan Dev Ji said on Ang 240:
"ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਹੁ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਅਸਨੇਹੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਜੋ ਪਹਿਰੈ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਕੂਕਰੁ ਜੂਠਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਮਿਰਤਕ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ॥ ਸੁਖੁ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਨਹੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੋਗ ॥੩॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕਰੇ ਅਨ ਕਾਜ ॥ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਝੂਠੇ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਜ ॥੪॥ ਨਾਮ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤੋ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੫॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਨਿ ਨ ਆਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਚੋਰ ਕੀ ਨਿਆਈ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਬਾਧਾ ॥੬॥ ਲਾਖ ਅਡੰਬਰ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਝੂਠੇ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥੭॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਲੇਇ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ॥੮॥੧੦॥"
"Gauree, Fifth Mehl: Meet me, O my Lord of the Universe. Please bless me with Your Name. Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, cursed, cursed is love and intimacy. ||1||Pause|| Without the Naam, one who dresses and eats well is like a dog, who falls in and eats impure foods. ||1|| Without the Naam, all occupations are useless, like decorations on a dead body. ||2|| One who forgets the Naam and indulges in pleasures, shall find no peace, even in dreams; his body shall become diseased. ||3|| One who renounces the Naam and engages in other occupations, shall see all of his false pretenses fall away. ||4|| One whose mind does not embrace love for the Naam shall go to hell, even though he may perform millions of ceremonial rituals. ||5|| One whose mind does not contemplate the Name of the Lord is bound like a thief, in the City of Death. ||6|| Hundreds of thousands of ostentatious shows and great expanses - without the Naam, all these displays are false. ||7|| That humble being repeats the Name of the Lord, O Nanak, whom the Lord blesses with His Mercy. ||8||10||"
Daas
Kawaljit Singh
"ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਾਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਤਤੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਇਆ"
"One whose heart is filled with faith in God- the essence of spiritual wisdom is revealed to his mind."
And if one doesn't believe in God, Sikhism is really pointless to her/him. All other teachings of Sikhism (for Better living and so and so) will not help that person in the end. It is like a dead body getting decorated. As Guru Arjan Dev Ji said on Ang 240:
"ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਹੁ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਅਸਨੇਹੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਜੋ ਪਹਿਰੈ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਕੂਕਰੁ ਜੂਠਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਮਿਰਤਕ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ॥ ਸੁਖੁ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਨਹੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੋਗ ॥੩॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕਰੇ ਅਨ ਕਾਜ ॥ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਝੂਠੇ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਜ ॥੪॥ ਨਾਮ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤੋ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੫॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਨਿ ਨ ਆਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਚੋਰ ਕੀ ਨਿਆਈ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਬਾਧਾ ॥੬॥ ਲਾਖ ਅਡੰਬਰ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਝੂਠੇ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥੭॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਲੇਇ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ॥੮॥੧੦॥"
"Gauree, Fifth Mehl: Meet me, O my Lord of the Universe. Please bless me with Your Name. Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, cursed, cursed is love and intimacy. ||1||Pause|| Without the Naam, one who dresses and eats well is like a dog, who falls in and eats impure foods. ||1|| Without the Naam, all occupations are useless, like decorations on a dead body. ||2|| One who forgets the Naam and indulges in pleasures, shall find no peace, even in dreams; his body shall become diseased. ||3|| One who renounces the Naam and engages in other occupations, shall see all of his false pretenses fall away. ||4|| One whose mind does not embrace love for the Naam shall go to hell, even though he may perform millions of ceremonial rituals. ||5|| One whose mind does not contemplate the Name of the Lord is bound like a thief, in the City of Death. ||6|| Hundreds of thousands of ostentatious shows and great expanses - without the Naam, all these displays are false. ||7|| That humble being repeats the Name of the Lord, O Nanak, whom the Lord blesses with His Mercy. ||8||10||"
Daas
Kawaljit Singh
arshdeep88
SPNer
- Mar 13, 2013
- 312
- 642
- 36
why pointless?
sikh also means learner and seeker of truth and ultimately one day seeking out truth might lead you to the belief of CREATOR for the best ,we all go through this sometime in our life when we doubt His existence but sooner or later realize for the better
There are many questions which can lead to the answers or at least to be wonder about
Why stars the Sun and planets are in the perfect situations?
Why things adhere to specific laws always?(force =ma, always with no exception )
there is one more term called Fibbonacci sequence ,see or Google it somewhere you will be surprised to see its importance everywhere around nature which might lead to you to believe things so perfect might be created by someone
Nature by Numbers - YouTube
sikh also means learner and seeker of truth and ultimately one day seeking out truth might lead you to the belief of CREATOR for the best ,we all go through this sometime in our life when we doubt His existence but sooner or later realize for the better
There are many questions which can lead to the answers or at least to be wonder about
Why stars the Sun and planets are in the perfect situations?
Why things adhere to specific laws always?(force =ma, always with no exception )
there is one more term called Fibbonacci sequence ,see or Google it somewhere you will be surprised to see its importance everywhere around nature which might lead to you to believe things so perfect might be created by someone
Nature by Numbers - YouTube
great post...
or even if this person doesnt believe in God...
he obviously believes in him'self' right?
maybe he should forget about God for a while and seek out finding out who he himself is...what his consciosness is...
I guess what I would say is this. Every religion has something we can take from it. And things we can give to it. I won't call myself Sikh except as in the context of "learner" (about it and the punjabi language). But I do call myself a decent human being, who respects a lot of what the Sikh religion offers not just in the actual religion but in the community. Langar? I TOTALLY respect and agree with that idea...enough to volunteer there even if I'm athiest.
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