Hard Talk I'm At The Verge Of Losing My Faith In Sikhi. Maybe Already Have. I Need Advice.

[RicktheSikh]

@sukhsingh ji I was referring to his Christian and Muslim friends that like to debate religion with him. I like open discussion where there is respect, but I got the impression that the tone of his conversations with friends were in the "which religion is the true religion" vein. I find it very respectful here so far.

 

[sukhsingh]

After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

· I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say. If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population? Even outside of Punjab, a large chunk of the population is Punjabi and the culture and religion have become intertwined. Now you’d say we haven’t done much parchar properly, maybe because Sikhs don’t preach and proselytize. Or you might say the SGPC is to blame. Okay sure these two factors are to blame. But let’s look back to history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled pretty far and wide, mostly with his sole companion Bhai Mardana and it was to observe the rest of the world and preach the message of Sikhi. Centres were established in these locations, as far as Iran I’ve read. Why didn’t these survive if the message if so supreme? And if I recall correctly it was Guru Har Rai Ji who also travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to preach. Banda Singh Bahadur himself went around preaching and bringing more to the Sikh fold (stated in The Sikhs by Patwant Singh as I recall).

· If this message came from the Hukam of Akal Purakh then surely it would have resisted decline and only grown in the 500 years since the faith was born? I won’t blame the restriction of the faith to mostly Punjab on this being the age of Kalyug and neither on how maybe I’m looking at this from an Abrahamic lens and not the Dharmic framework – by that reason most of the planet outside the Indian subcontinent is in simple ignorance. If the message of Gurbani isn’t restricted to the Sikh faith and it appears to those of the Bhakti movement mostly then why hasn’t history seen Gurus with a similar message in the West or other corners of the world? At least I’ve never heard of any, if there are any you know of please do mention them. Please don’t say other religions were spread by sword, Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population and known as one where Islam was spread by word and not sword.

· Even during the time of the Sikh empire, which like many I used to consider the Golden Age of Sikhs, after reading its history I realised it was the time when Sikh philosophy was likely diluted the most. The moment Sikhs seemed to have gotten a taste for sovereignty, self control and strictness to the Sikh Rehat seem to have become secondary.

· Following on from this, how do we clearly separate the so called “false gurus” like Ram Rahim from the true ones? If those rape and violence allegations hadn’t been found about him he could be easily looked at as a hero and the saviour of the poor and low castes. I’m not trying to equate the Sikh gurus to this man, they were far different in character from this man. But if the 10 Gurus weren’t the last and only, then why is it when one claims to be one in this day and age they are met with ridicule?


· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine? This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive. It is true this is not the case when they are read in their original form, but the meaning still tends to be repetitive. If I was to open up the SGGS at random pages, I’d almost all basically be reading the same verse but only written in a different way from a different author. I realise that the inclusion of several of authors signifies unity but reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture. Comparing this to the Bible and the Quran, neither one of which I’ve yet accepted but it’s undeniable that they themselves have much more in terms of various examples and plenty of wisdom resides in them too. In addition to this, I have always wondered how Baba Fareed would feel about someone worshipping to their poetry/bani? If they were a Muslim, then someone praying to anything other than Allah/God would be the highest of sins.

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.

I apologise for the hefty post, there’s plenty more I’d like to say but at least these things I had to get off my chest. Before this faith crises recently, the past 2-3 months is the most serious I had ever been about Sikhi. I woke up early every morning (even for which there seems to be some uncertainty regarding when exactly counts as amrit vela) and you know what it did make me feel better. Until I later begin to realise that this good feeling is likely something almost anyone turning to a healthy sleep schedule and a habit of meditation could likely acquire. Buddhists who don’t believe in the importance of faith in an eternal creator likely also reap the benefits of meditation.

Bottom point here: the good feeling one gets out of spirituality can be quite subjective. There are plenty of people out there who might follow a very different path and feel something from it and claim that it’s the true path since its working. That in itself is not a good enough reason for why a path is the true one. Truth in its nature is exclusive. The Bible claims authenticity through the fulfilments of prophecies it contains and The Quran through its prophecies and its literary perfection. I have not yet fully read either but intend to in order to see this for myself. I am far from the most intellectual or spiritually developed person, or the most well read in the SGGS or theology in general. But when I started to look at Sikhi a bit more objectively along with spiritually, all these were things I simply I couldn’t ignore. These are some of the issues I believe Sikhs need to deal with. For a faith which is meant to be built on inclusivity, I never even felt fully accepted as a proper Sikh since I am a Sehajdari.

If you took the time to read my post, I’d like to thank you. This challenge to the beliefs I held dear has left my restless and depressed, so if I hurt anyone’s sentiments then for that apologise and also for any incoherency in my writing. I really want to find truth is and have a genuine discussion based on reason and backing up of claims, rather than pure emotion and knowledge gained from word of mouth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf kareo.

Bro your my kind of sikh

From all love, all I can say is "what's your point?"

Your outpouring is not particularly concise whilst it jumps between lots of common readings of 'sikhi but it's also a pretty naive reading of sikhi.. Or for that matter critically appraising any philosophical, historical, social topic

My goal right now is what it was when I set off on this journey: to find whatever the Truth is. I chose Sikhi because it's message of love and openness resonated with me. I have spent a great chunk of my time since then studying it and now I'm getting to deeper and trickier questions which I'm struggling with. I am definitely a theist, I believe there is a creator because that is what my thinking has led me to conclude. I'm not just looking to be part of a religion since for me that will come after, first and foremost I am seeking the Truth which I can't do alone and hence I'm turning here for guidance and discussion. I don't know where else to go. As I said in my post, I'm relooking at religions and even though my love for Sikh philosophy is still greater than others as it stands, theologically an historically it's also the one I'm struggling to fully comprehend on my own. I hope this satisfies your questions.

Sometimes when we look really hard we can't see the wood for the trees

 

[Rajveer_97]

@sukhsingh ji I was referring to his Christian and Muslim friends that like to debate religion with him. I like open discussion where there is respect, but I got the impression that the tone of his conversations with friends were in the "which religion is the true religion" vein. I find it very respectful here so far.

They are largely of an educational nature but are starting to venture into the domain you mention. I'll limit my involvement in them for now.

 

[Rajveer_97]

Bro your my kind of sikh

From all love, all I can say is "what's your point?"

Your outpouring is not particularly concise whilst it jumps between lots of common readings of 'sikhi but it's also a pretty naive reading of sikhi.. Or for that matter critically appraising any philosophical, historical, social topic

Sometimes when we look really hard we can't see the wood for the trees

My point, well for one I wanted to get it all out of my head because these questions and faith crises was giving me sleepless nights. To make matters worse this all hit me in the middle of exams. Secondly, I wanted hopefully a response to at least some of the questions I asked because they're the ones that recently popped up in my research. If not that, then I at least wanted some general advice, which I'm feeling satisfied about.

 

[Rajveer_97]

In my view, religion isn't the Truth. Religion is a tool for learning about and living Truth and is highly dependent on time, place, context. But as you said the Truth doesn't change. You can see it in the common threads that run through cultures and religions across human history and geography. And we hear this in Gurbani when we read that one can worship God if they're a true Muslim or a true Hindu, and by extrapolation if they're a true Sikh - and it also explains areas where humans commonly muddle Truth by getting distracted with the wrong things, like thinking they're holy for not touching something "unholy" when in their minds they are filthy, etc.

The Truth isn't limited to one religion. In my experience, Sikhi does the best job out of any of the world religions at explaining Truth and encouraging a simple, Truthful lifestyle.



There is no one right path or religion. There is only Truth and things that help teach it to you and live in accordance with it.



How does this have bearing on the Truth? The most outwardly devoted person can still have no real relationship with God in their heart, but there's no way you'll ever know that. You can only know your own heart.



Gurbani does the best job out of all the scriptures I've looked at (admittedly not a whole heap) at singing of God and Truth.

Truth isn't restricted by any religious label and Sikhi does the best job of putting us on the simplest path to the Truth. That's indeed what I've long believed in since I got into Sikhi.

 

[BhagatSingh]

After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

It's a good idea to step back and take in the bigger picture or getting a fresh perspective on things.

But have you worked on your self through Meditation, Truthful Actions and Acquiring and Sharing Wealth and Wisdom?

Have you developed yourself physically and spiritually?

Do you exercise?

Do you consume good nutrition?

Do you get quality sleep?

Do you get quality sunlight?

Do you meditate?

Do you act according to the Truth?

Do you have a set daily routine of performing meaningful tasks?

Do you have a plan for the next 5 years? and for next year? and for tomorrow?

These are important questions to ask yourself.

I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

The examples set by the Gurus have survived. It is up to you and I to make use of their examples and orient our Compass of Life, towards the True North.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

Bibi Bhani ji did immense seva of Guru Amar Das ji and she wanted the Gurgaddi to remain within the family. Guru Amar Das ji granted her that. So all Gurus after Ram Das ji respected her wish.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say.

The Sacrifice that the Gurus made confirms their Divinity.

Do you have any idea what strength it takes to be able to sacrifice things you hold dear to you, such as your family?

Do you have any idea of what practice it takes to constantly access high states of being? Where you able to write such beautiful hymns that resonate in the hearts of the Indian people, not just during your time but 500 years after that.

Do you have any idea what strength it takes to be able to play the game of life at that level? Where you are organizing kitchens, holding congregations, and generating such influence by your ability to speak the Truth, that the Emperor of the whole of India, finds you threatening and decides to shut you down and torture you.

The confirmation of the Sikh Saints that followed in their foot steps and made sacrifices also confirms the Divinity of the Gurus (as well as the Saints).

The teachings of the Saints that existed prior to the Gurus, also confirms the Divinity of the Gurus since they both spoke the same Truth.

If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population?

It's not confined to the Punjabi or Punjabi language. The Truth is available to everyone all over the world, if they only pay attention to their inner experience.

In my deepest experience, I find the writings of all Saints to be highly meaningful and deeply beneficial to one's life. These Saints are everywhere. Their writings can be found in all kinds of books.

· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine?

Yes.

Contemplate it.

This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive.

This is because Guru Granth Sahib is not a linear book. It is a compilation of hymns of Indian saints.

If you want to read a linear book, I would recommend Bhagwad Gita.

reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture.

That maybe an issue with the reader not the text.

If you find that you are not growing, then try something else. No one is forcing you to read Guru Granth Sahib. (But if you want to know whether it is Divine then you must contemplate it.)

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy?

Why did this shake your faith? Do you think polygamy is morally wrong?

How do you suppose Gurus should have worked around Environment factors such as - high child mortality, Biological factors such as - sterility, Traditional factors such as - requirement for keeping gurgaddi within the family?

Truth in its nature is exclusive.

Truth is also inclusive. The Gurus state" people worship God through different names, images and religions, and that these are all ultimately going to the same Oneness of Akal Purakh Sahib".

In Bhagwad Gita, Krishan ji, who is God, explains "no matter which God you worship, ultimately you worship me and I will fulfill your prayer" meaning no matter which religion you follow, you worship the same God and he will fulfill you.

In Bible Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to God, except through me", meaning -

No one makes it to God without knowing the Way, a path, a methodology.

No one makes it to God by lying their way through; without being Truthful God cannot be obtained.

No one makes it to God without becoming purified through the trials and tribulations of Life.

All of these things must come together in one individual if they want to see God. And they may come together in any individual from any religion or background.

 

[Sikhilove]

Y

After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

· I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say. If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population? Even outside of Punjab, a large chunk of the population is Punjabi and the culture and religion have become intertwined. Now you’d say we haven’t done much parchar properly, maybe because Sikhs don’t preach and proselytize. Or you might say the SGPC is to blame. Okay sure these two factors are to blame. But let’s look back to history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled pretty far and wide, mostly with his sole companion Bhai Mardana and it was to observe the rest of the world and preach the message of Sikhi. Centres were established in these locations, as far as Iran I’ve read. Why didn’t these survive if the message if so supreme? And if I recall correctly it was Guru Har Rai Ji who also travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to preach. Banda Singh Bahadur himself went around preaching and bringing more to the Sikh fold (stated in The Sikhs by Patwant Singh as I recall).

· If this message came from the Hukam of Akal Purakh then surely it would have resisted decline and only grown in the 500 years since the faith was born? I won’t blame the restriction of the faith to mostly Punjab on this being the age of Kalyug and neither on how maybe I’m looking at this from an Abrahamic lens and not the Dharmic framework – by that reason most of the planet outside the Indian subcontinent is in simple ignorance. If the message of Gurbani isn’t restricted to the Sikh faith and it appears to those of the Bhakti movement mostly then why hasn’t history seen Gurus with a similar message in the West or other corners of the world? At least I’ve never heard of any, if there are any you know of please do mention them. Please don’t say other religions were spread by sword, Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population and known as one where Islam was spread by word and not sword.

· Even during the time of the Sikh empire, which like many I used to consider the Golden Age of Sikhs, after reading its history I realised it was the time when Sikh philosophy was likely diluted the most. The moment Sikhs seemed to have gotten a taste for sovereignty, self control and strictness to the Sikh Rehat seem to have become secondary.

· Following on from this, how do we clearly separate the so called “false gurus” like Ram Rahim from the true ones? If those rape and violence allegations hadn’t been found about him he could be easily looked at as a hero and the saviour of the poor and low castes. I’m not trying to equate the Sikh gurus to this man, they were far different in character from this man. But if the 10 Gurus weren’t the last and only, then why is it when one claims to be one in this day and age they are met with ridicule?


· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine? This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive. It is true this is not the case when they are read in their original form, but the meaning still tends to be repetitive. If I was to open up the SGGS at random pages, I’d almost all basically be reading the same verse but only written in a different way from a different author. I realise that the inclusion of several of authors signifies unity but reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture. Comparing this to the Bible and the Quran, neither one of which I’ve yet accepted but it’s undeniable that they themselves have much more in terms of various examples and plenty of wisdom resides in them too. In addition to this, I have always wondered how Baba Fareed would feel about someone worshipping to their poetry/bani? If they were a Muslim, then someone praying to anything other than Allah/God would be the highest of sins.

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.

I apologise for the hefty post, there’s plenty more I’d like to say but at least these things I had to get off my chest. Before this faith crises recently, the past 2-3 months is the most serious I had ever been about Sikhi. I woke up early every morning (even for which there seems to be some uncertainty regarding when exactly counts as amrit vela) and you know what it did make me feel better. Until I later begin to realise that this good feeling is likely something almost anyone turning to a healthy sleep schedule and a habit of meditation could likely acquire. Buddhists who don’t believe in the importance of faith in an eternal creator likely also reap the benefits of meditation.

Bottom point here: the good feeling one gets out of spirituality can be quite subjective. There are plenty of people out there who might follow a very different path and feel something from it and claim that it’s the true path since its working. That in itself is not a good enough reason for why a path is the true one. Truth in its nature is exclusive. The Bible claims authenticity through the fulfilments of prophecies it contains and The Quran through its prophecies and its literary perfection. I have not yet fully read either but intend to in order to see this for myself. I am far from the most intellectual or spiritually developed person, or the most well read in the SGGS or theology in general. But when I started to look at Sikhi a bit more objectively along with spiritually, all these were things I simply I couldn’t ignore. These are some of the issues I believe Sikhs need to deal with. For a faith which is meant to be built on inclusivity, I never even felt fully accepted as a proper Sikh since I am a Sehajdari.

If you took the time to read my post, I’d like to thank you. This challenge to the beliefs I held dear has left my restless and depressed, so if I hurt anyone’s sentiments then for that apologise and also for any incoherency in my writing. I really want to find truth is and have a genuine discussion based on reason and backing up of claims, rather than pure emotion and knowledge gained from word of mouth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf kareo.

You cant blame the Gurus that that Sikhs of the modern day have twisted their teachings to their own benefit.

How do you know God didnt align the succession of the Guruship that way as a test of your faith?

Everthings Hukam and everythings perfect. It's up to you what you want to believe, noones twisting your arm or forcing you to accept anything- thats what freedom of choice is given to us for.

 

[jsteji1]

After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

· I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say. If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population? Even outside of Punjab, a large chunk of the population is Punjabi and the culture and religion have become intertwined. Now you’d say we haven’t done much parchar properly, maybe because Sikhs don’t preach and proselytize. Or you might say the SGPC is to blame. Okay sure these two factors are to blame. But let’s look back to history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled pretty far and wide, mostly with his sole companion Bhai Mardana and it was to observe the rest of the world and preach the message of Sikhi. Centres were established in these locations, as far as Iran I’ve read. Why didn’t these survive if the message if so supreme? And if I recall correctly it was Guru Har Rai Ji who also travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to preach. Banda Singh Bahadur himself went around preaching and bringing more to the Sikh fold (stated in The Sikhs by Patwant Singh as I recall).

· If this message came from the Hukam of Akal Purakh then surely it would have resisted decline and only grown in the 500 years since the faith was born? I won’t blame the restriction of the faith to mostly Punjab on this being the age of Kalyug and neither on how maybe I’m looking at this from an Abrahamic lens and not the Dharmic framework – by that reason most of the planet outside the Indian subcontinent is in simple ignorance. If the message of Gurbani isn’t restricted to the Sikh faith and it appears to those of the Bhakti movement mostly then why hasn’t history seen Gurus with a similar message in the West or other corners of the world? At least I’ve never heard of any, if there are any you know of please do mention them. Please don’t say other religions were spread by sword, Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population and known as one where Islam was spread by word and not sword.

· Even during the time of the Sikh empire, which like many I used to consider the Golden Age of Sikhs, after reading its history I realised it was the time when Sikh philosophy was likely diluted the most. The moment Sikhs seemed to have gotten a taste for sovereignty, self control and strictness to the Sikh Rehat seem to have become secondary.

· Following on from this, how do we clearly separate the so called “false gurus” like Ram Rahim from the true ones? If those rape and violence allegations hadn’t been found about him he could be easily looked at as a hero and the saviour of the poor and low castes. I’m not trying to equate the Sikh gurus to this man, they were far different in character from this man. But if the 10 Gurus weren’t the last and only, then why is it when one claims to be one in this day and age they are met with ridicule?


· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine? This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive. It is true this is not the case when they are read in their original form, but the meaning still tends to be repetitive. If I was to open up the SGGS at random pages, I’d almost all basically be reading the same verse but only written in a different way from a different author. I realise that the inclusion of several of authors signifies unity but reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture. Comparing this to the Bible and the Quran, neither one of which I’ve yet accepted but it’s undeniable that they themselves have much more in terms of various examples and plenty of wisdom resides in them too. In addition to this, I have always wondered how Baba Fareed would feel about someone worshipping to their poetry/bani? If they were a Muslim, then someone praying to anything other than Allah/God would be the highest of sins.

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.

I apologise for the hefty post, there’s plenty more I’d like to say but at least these things I had to get off my chest. Before this faith crises recently, the past 2-3 months is the most serious I had ever been about Sikhi. I woke up early every morning (even for which there seems to be some uncertainty regarding when exactly counts as amrit vela) and you know what it did make me feel better. Until I later begin to realise that this good feeling is likely something almost anyone turning to a healthy sleep schedule and a habit of meditation could likely acquire. Buddhists who don’t believe in the importance of faith in an eternal creator likely also reap the benefits of meditation.

Bottom point here: the good feeling one gets out of spirituality can be quite subjective. There are plenty of people out there who might follow a very different path and feel something from it and claim that it’s the true path since its working. That in itself is not a good enough reason for why a path is the true one. Truth in its nature is exclusive. The Bible claims authenticity through the fulfilments of prophecies it contains and The Quran through its prophecies and its literary perfection. I have not yet fully read either but intend to in order to see this for myself. I am far from the most intellectual or spiritually developed person, or the most well read in the SGGS or theology in general. But when I started to look at Sikhi a bit more objectively along with spiritually, all these were things I simply I couldn’t ignore. These are some of the issues I believe Sikhs need to deal with. For a faith which is meant to be built on inclusivity, I never even felt fully accepted as a proper Sikh since I am a Sehajdari.

If you took the time to read my post, I’d like to thank you. This challenge to the beliefs I held dear has left my restless and depressed, so if I hurt anyone’s sentiments then for that apologise and also for any incoherency in my writing. I really want to find truth is and have a genuine discussion based on reason and backing up of claims, rather than pure emotion and knowledge gained from word of mouth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf kareo.

Rajveer

After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

· I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say. If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population? Even outside of Punjab, a large chunk of the population is Punjabi and the culture and religion have become intertwined. Now you’d say we haven’t done much parchar properly, maybe because Sikhs don’t preach and proselytize. Or you might say the SGPC is to blame. Okay sure these two factors are to blame. But let’s look back to history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled pretty far and wide, mostly with his sole companion Bhai Mardana and it was to observe the rest of the world and preach the message of Sikhi. Centres were established in these locations, as far as Iran I’ve read. Why didn’t these survive if the message if so supreme? And if I recall correctly it was Guru Har Rai Ji who also travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to preach. Banda Singh Bahadur himself went around preaching and bringing more to the Sikh fold (stated in The Sikhs by Patwant Singh as I recall).

· If this message came from the Hukam of Akal Purakh then surely it would have resisted decline and only grown in the 500 years since the faith was born? I won’t blame the restriction of the faith to mostly Punjab on this being the age of Kalyug and neither on how maybe I’m looking at this from an Abrahamic lens and not the Dharmic framework – by that reason most of the planet outside the Indian subcontinent is in simple ignorance. If the message of Gurbani isn’t restricted to the Sikh faith and it appears to those of the Bhakti movement mostly then why hasn’t history seen Gurus with a similar message in the West or other corners of the world? At least I’ve never heard of any, if there are any you know of please do mention them. Please don’t say other religions were spread by sword, Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population and known as one where Islam was spread by word and not sword.

· Even during the time of the Sikh empire, which like many I used to consider the Golden Age of Sikhs, after reading its history I realised it was the time when Sikh philosophy was likely diluted the most. The moment Sikhs seemed to have gotten a taste for sovereignty, self control and strictness to the Sikh Rehat seem to have become secondary.

· Following on from this, how do we clearly separate the so called “false gurus” like Ram Rahim from the true ones? If those rape and violence allegations hadn’t been found about him he could be easily looked at as a hero and the saviour of the poor and low castes. I’m not trying to equate the Sikh gurus to this man, they were far different in character from this man. But if the 10 Gurus weren’t the last and only, then why is it when one claims to be one in this day and age they are met with ridicule?


· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine? This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive. It is true this is not the case when they are read in their original form, but the meaning still tends to be repetitive. If I was to open up the SGGS at random pages, I’d almost all basically be reading the same verse but only written in a different way from a different author. I realise that the inclusion of several of authors signifies unity but reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture. Comparing this to the Bible and the Quran, neither one of which I’ve yet accepted but it’s undeniable that they themselves have much more in terms of various examples and plenty of wisdom resides in them too. In addition to this, I have always wondered how Baba Fareed would feel about someone worshipping to their poetry/bani? If they were a Muslim, then someone praying to anything other than Allah/God would be the highest of sins.

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.

I apologise for the hefty post, there’s plenty more I’d like to say but at least these things I had to get off my chest. Before this faith crises recently, the past 2-3 months is the most serious I had ever been about Sikhi. I woke up early every morning (even for which there seems to be some uncertainty regarding when exactly counts as amrit vela) and you know what it did make me feel better. Until I later begin to realise that this good feeling is likely something almost anyone turning to a healthy sleep schedule and a habit of meditation could likely acquire. Buddhists who don’t believe in the importance of faith in an eternal creator likely also reap the benefits of meditation.

Bottom point here: the good feeling one gets out of spirituality can be quite subjective. There are plenty of people out there who might follow a very different path and feel something from it and claim that it’s the true path since its working. That in itself is not a good enough reason for why a path is the true one. Truth in its nature is exclusive. The Bible claims authenticity through the fulfilments of prophecies it contains and The Quran through its prophecies and its literary perfection. I have not yet fully read either but intend to in order to see this for myself. I am far from the most intellectual or spiritually developed person, or the most well read in the SGGS or theology in general. But when I started to look at Sikhi a bit more objectively along with spiritually, all these were things I simply I couldn’t ignore. These are some of the issues I believe Sikhs need to deal with. For a faith which is meant to be built on inclusivity, I never even felt fully accepted as a proper Sikh since I am a Sehajdari.

If you took the time to read my post, I’d like to thank you. This challenge to the beliefs I held dear has left my restless and depressed, so if I hurt anyone’s sentiments then for that apologise and also for any incoherency in my writing. I really want to find truth is and have a genuine discussion based on reason and backing up of claims, rather than pure emotion and knowledge gained from word of mouth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf kareo.

Rajveer ji,

You have raised a number of question from various facets of observation, that is great. As we evolve as human beings to a high level so does our level of observation and its combinations and complexities, and the facets increase too observably. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was written over 238 years, I is very difficult to read, comprehend and assimilate and test its applicability in the test period you designate. Translation into English, and other languages doesn't complete it either but it is a start. As I continually evolve when I read the scriptures in Gurumukhi i dispel a lot of doubts. I admit I never went to school to learn Gurumukhi, I learned slowly word by word, letter by letter, and completed the 10 volumes of Prof. Sahib Singh's Darpan, all written in Gurumukhi. It took me long time. I still don't know it all, I admit, because I just read it and did not understand every part it. But my understanding was better about me, Gurubani, and the world, but continue to evolve as I read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and read the description in Prof. Sahib Singh's jis Darpan the portions where I don't I get stuck in understanding. Rajveer ji, I still go to work, raise my children, and my grandchild as I still continue to grow. I had faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jis teachings when I knew so little and now I know a little more so now I have more faith. I admit, I will never know every part of Gurbani but continue to learn something everyday.

 

[chazSingh]

After getting into Sikhi properly and studying it for almost 2 years, I have reached a point where I’ve noticed things within its theology and history that I simply cannot ignore anymore. For the time being I’m leaving Sikhi as it is, I’d call myself a Sikh but only by its general definition/meaning, since I have not entirely given up on faith and God in general but on the religion itself. I have decided to take a back seat and begin my journey anew by re-looking at Sikhi, Christianity and Islam, amongst other eastern philosophies. My intention with what I say next isn’t intend to offend, but to genuinely enquire, learn and ask others to ask these questions themselves (Points made in no specific order).

· I still highly respect the Gurus, the lives they led, the ideals they fought and sacrificed for, etc. But to what extent have these really survived? Let’s look at the caste system. Recently I learned some villages in India have separate Gurdwaras for those consider to be of the lower-caste. The Gurus themselves I learned were all from the Khatri caste and married within their own caste despite preaching against such barriers. Now I’m not saying that one should marry outside of their caste for the sake of it, but it’s some food for thought.

· How about the succession of the Gurus? How do we go from the 4 first being chosen by merit and from different lineage, then suddenly it turns into a system of monarchy resulting in the succession of Guru Harkrishan Ji at such a young age who also passed away at a young age. The argument I once heard was due to the challenges to Guruship the first Gurus faced. Well, these didn’t exactly stop and was especially notable in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.

· What is it about the Gurus that ensures us of their authenticity? How do we know they were divine or “perfect” as many say. If the message of Sikhi really is the simplest and most practical and the eternal Truth, if the message of Sikhi, the Gurbani, really did come from God as Guru Gobind Singh Ji says near the end of Chaupai Sahib, then why, why is it that its remained confined for the most part to the Punjabi population? Even outside of Punjab, a large chunk of the population is Punjabi and the culture and religion have become intertwined. Now you’d say we haven’t done much parchar properly, maybe because Sikhs don’t preach and proselytize. Or you might say the SGPC is to blame. Okay sure these two factors are to blame. But let’s look back to history. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled pretty far and wide, mostly with his sole companion Bhai Mardana and it was to observe the rest of the world and preach the message of Sikhi. Centres were established in these locations, as far as Iran I’ve read. Why didn’t these survive if the message if so supreme? And if I recall correctly it was Guru Har Rai Ji who also travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to preach. Banda Singh Bahadur himself went around preaching and bringing more to the Sikh fold (stated in The Sikhs by Patwant Singh as I recall).

· If this message came from the Hukam of Akal Purakh then surely it would have resisted decline and only grown in the 500 years since the faith was born? I won’t blame the restriction of the faith to mostly Punjab on this being the age of Kalyug and neither on how maybe I’m looking at this from an Abrahamic lens and not the Dharmic framework – by that reason most of the planet outside the Indian subcontinent is in simple ignorance. If the message of Gurbani isn’t restricted to the Sikh faith and it appears to those of the Bhakti movement mostly then why hasn’t history seen Gurus with a similar message in the West or other corners of the world? At least I’ve never heard of any, if there are any you know of please do mention them. Please don’t say other religions were spread by sword, Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population and known as one where Islam was spread by word and not sword.

· Even during the time of the Sikh empire, which like many I used to consider the Golden Age of Sikhs, after reading its history I realised it was the time when Sikh philosophy was likely diluted the most. The moment Sikhs seemed to have gotten a taste for sovereignty, self control and strictness to the Sikh Rehat seem to have become secondary.

· Following on from this, how do we clearly separate the so called “false gurus” like Ram Rahim from the true ones? If those rape and violence allegations hadn’t been found about him he could be easily looked at as a hero and the saviour of the poor and low castes. I’m not trying to equate the Sikh gurus to this man, they were far different in character from this man. But if the 10 Gurus weren’t the last and only, then why is it when one claims to be one in this day and age they are met with ridicule?


· Now moving onto Gurbani. It is beautiful, the meaning is deep and highly deserving of respect. But is it really divine? This query has been raised before and I will re-iterate it: The verses for the most part are repetitive. It is true this is not the case when they are read in their original form, but the meaning still tends to be repetitive. If I was to open up the SGGS at random pages, I’d almost all basically be reading the same verse but only written in a different way from a different author. I realise that the inclusion of several of authors signifies unity but reading the same over and over again doesn’t appear to me as source of ever increasing wisdom as I progress through the scripture. Comparing this to the Bible and the Quran, neither one of which I’ve yet accepted but it’s undeniable that they themselves have much more in terms of various examples and plenty of wisdom resides in them too. In addition to this, I have always wondered how Baba Fareed would feel about someone worshipping to their poetry/bani? If they were a Muslim, then someone praying to anything other than Allah/God would be the highest of sins.

· Some more matters that shook my faith: Why did some Gurus practice polygamy? There is historical evidence to support they did and those who refute this usually seem to speak from person opinion and emotion. I used to be of the thought if the Guru does something then I accept it since they know better. But come on, shouldn’t they have provided us with better guidelines? Islam and polygamy, something many love to bash – at least it provides strict guidelines for this. Idol worship – this is something Christians (excluding Catholics) and Muslims have a done a much better job at keeping it away. Criticism of Sikhs converting to other faiths such as Christianity – You know what, good for them if this provides them with a more caring community. I disagree with deception being used for such conversions, but otherwise I feel good for them. The fault lies on a lot (not all) of the Punjabi Sikh community itself. Why have Sikhs failed to spread the faith even over the Indian subcontinent itself? Why so much debate over a simple matter of canon scriptures (the Dasam Granth which oddly enough contains 2 of the prayers forming the Nitnem) and a matter of vegetarianism and meat eating? It should have been pretty clear thing laid out by the Gurus. Also this idea of Sikhs being encouraged to be critical thinkers but also not to question the Guru doesn’t quite go too well together.

I apologise for the hefty post, there’s plenty more I’d like to say but at least these things I had to get off my chest. Before this faith crises recently, the past 2-3 months is the most serious I had ever been about Sikhi. I woke up early every morning (even for which there seems to be some uncertainty regarding when exactly counts as amrit vela) and you know what it did make me feel better. Until I later begin to realise that this good feeling is likely something almost anyone turning to a healthy sleep schedule and a habit of meditation could likely acquire. Buddhists who don’t believe in the importance of faith in an eternal creator likely also reap the benefits of meditation.

Bottom point here: the good feeling one gets out of spirituality can be quite subjective. There are plenty of people out there who might follow a very different path and feel something from it and claim that it’s the true path since its working. That in itself is not a good enough reason for why a path is the true one. Truth in its nature is exclusive. The Bible claims authenticity through the fulfilments of prophecies it contains and The Quran through its prophecies and its literary perfection. I have not yet fully read either but intend to in order to see this for myself. I am far from the most intellectual or spiritually developed person, or the most well read in the SGGS or theology in general. But when I started to look at Sikhi a bit more objectively along with spiritually, all these were things I simply I couldn’t ignore. These are some of the issues I believe Sikhs need to deal with. For a faith which is meant to be built on inclusivity, I never even felt fully accepted as a proper Sikh since I am a Sehajdari.

If you took the time to read my post, I’d like to thank you. This challenge to the beliefs I held dear has left my restless and depressed, so if I hurt anyone’s sentiments then for that apologise and also for any incoherency in my writing. I really want to find truth is and have a genuine discussion based on reason and backing up of claims, rather than pure emotion and knowledge gained from word of mouth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf kareo.

Hey

Love your post...lots to think about lol...

Most of it though I.m not really interested in other than your mention of the repetitivrness of Gurbani ...

This could be an indication that it is not devine...OR..it could mean that what is being repeated over and over is VERY important lol...

I work for a large global company...every year we have to be retrained over and over about virus emails and how to handle them...how to recognise them...not to click on the links in the emails etc etc amongst many more topics...

Why so? Because as humans we tend to forget things very quickly or are distracted very easily...so the information has to be repeated over and over to us...

Guru Ji knows our state of mind.
My question to you is...why are you so distracted about all the other things in your post...why don't you concentrate on the element in Bani that is being repeated over and over...imvestigate it....

Let's start now...what do you think is being repeated on each page? Is it asking you to do something?

 

[Rajveer_97]

Hey

Love your post...lots to think about lol...

Most of it though I.m not really interested in other than your mention of the repetitivrness of Gurbani ...

This could be an indication that it is not devine...OR..it could mean that what is being repeated over and over is VERY important lol...

I work for a large global company...every year we have to be retrained over and over about virus emails and how to handle them...how to recognise them...not to click on the links in the emails etc etc amongst many more topics...

Why so? Because as humans we tend to forget things very quickly or are distracted very easily...so the information has to be repeated over and over to us...

Guru Ji knows our state of mind.
My question to you is...why are you so distracted about all the other things in your post...why don't you concentrate on the element in Bani that is being repeated over and over...imvestigate it....

Let's start now...what do you think is being repeated on each page? Is it asking you to do something?

The repetition I guess is to emphasise the prime importance of remembering and reciting Naam. The questions I asked were genuine ones I had, which built up over time and I let it out in frustration. But I am starting to make peace with not having all the answers and continuing my journey.

 

[chazSingh]

The repetition I guess is to emphasise the prime importance of remembering and reciting Naam. The questions I asked were genuine ones I had, which built up over time and I let it out in frustration. But I am starting to make peace with not having all the answers and continuing my journey.

yup, you got it in one focus on what is being repeated
honestly...i spent years asking question after question like you...posting on forums, discussing topic after topic...opinion after opinion...sucks the energy out of you...

nothing matters apart from what you learn with first hand experience...then honestly, the types of questions you currently ask will be thrown out the window...you'll no longer care about them nor any ones opinon...because you had a real glimpse of the truth....as Original Ji often calls it..."A Spritual Excursion"

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The repetition I guess is to emphasise the prime importance of remembering and reciting Naam.

Not really. What is the difference between chanting Vaheguru, Om, a Buddhist chant or Lady Gaga?
All would feel the same trance due to the chemo-biological reaction in our brains. Nothing much.
Sadly, we all have our own interpretation of it because we do not understand our Guru's message from the SGGS, our only Guru. Naam, Simran and other catchy words are used by many to emulate what are Hindu and Buddhist rituals. Nowhere in the SGGS, this kind of repetition normally known as Simran is mentioned, nor do our Janam Sakhis, how flawed they may be, say that our Gurus chanted 'Vaheguru' repeatedly for hours as many jathas do nowadays.

Many people get up in the early hours, do the 'Simran' and go off to sleep which is a bit odd it seems because then whatever energy one is able to gather with the repetition goes to waste. If one is into it, it is fine but one should make this practice as a springboard, not a lullaby.

Regarding Naam, there is a very interesting video by Harinder Singh which is posted on SPN. I will ask the Admin ji to post it in this thread.

Having said this, please do not think I am telling you it is a waste of time. It would be a waste of time if this 'Simran' is used as a warm-up for running a marathon without running one.

The questions I asked were genuine ones I had, which built up over time and I let it out in frustration. But I am starting to make peace with not having all the answers and continuing my journey.

As a Sikh, no question is out. It is our duty to question as Guru Nanak did when he questioned the meaningfulness of a janeiu that he refused to wear.
So, ask along as many questions, doubts, disagreements you may have. Don't feel shy about it. Sikhi is based on that

Cherish and relish your journey.

 

[chazSingh]

Not really. What is the difference between chanting Vaheguru, Om, a Buddhist chant or Lady Gaga?
All would feel the same trance due to the chemo-biological reaction in our brains. Nothing much.
Sadly, we all have our own interpretation of it because we do not understand our Guru's message from the SGGS, our only Guru. Naam, Simran and other catchy words are used by many to emulate what are Hindu and Buddhist rituals. Nowhere in the SGGS, this kind of repetition normally known as Simran is mentioned, nor do our Janam Sakhis, how flawed they may be, say that our Gurus chanted 'Vaheguru' repeatedly for hours as many jathas do nowadays.

Many people get up in the early hours, do the 'Simran' and go off to sleep which is a bit odd it seems because then whatever energy one is able to gather with the repetition goes to waste. If one is into it, it is fine but one should make this practice as a springboard, not a lullaby.

Regarding Naam, there is a very interesting video by Harinder Singh which is posted on SPN. I will ask the Admin ji to post it in this thread.

Having said this, please do not think I am telling you it is a waste of time. It would be a waste of time if this 'Simran' is used as a warm-up for running a marathon without running one.



As a Sikh, no question is out. It is our duty to question as Guru Nanak did when he questioned the meaningfulness of a janeiu that he refused to wear.
So, ask along as many questions, doubts, disagreements you may have. Don't feel shy about it. Sikhi is based on that

Cherish and relish your journey.

Personally I don't think the energy one gains goes away if they go to sleep...i feel it throughout the day also regardless...sometimea randomly oftentimes when I think of Bani or listen to shabad.. .Or just mentally recite waheguru..or any shabad...

I think if I spend my energy during the day in negative actions I guess It would dissipate...just a guess though...

But anyway...if I repeat lady gaga...it will be her on my mind...

If I repeat 'sex'...thats where my mind is...

If I repeat bani...that is where my mind Is...contemplating that wonder...

I really cant fathom why this is thought of as the same...

I need to be contemplating the purpose of my Simran...otherwise yes it is just partoting...

But if i.m contemplating the wonder of waheguru...i.m already somewhat in his domain...attention is fixed somewhat...and more inclined to hear his call Lol

That's what i.ve found anyway...just my own experience...

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Personally I don't think the energy one gains goes away if they go to sleep...i feel it throughout the day also regardless...sometimea randomly oftentimes when I think of Bani or listen to shabad.. .Or just mentally recite waheguru..or any shabad...

I think if I spend my energy during the day in negative actions I guess It would dissipate...just a guess though...

But anyway...if I repeat lady gaga...it will be her on my mind...

If I repeat 'sex'...thats where my mind is...

If I repeat bani...that is where my mind Is...contemplating that wonder...

I really cant fathom why this is thought of as the same...

I need to be contemplating the purpose of my Simran...otherwise yes it is just partoting...

But if i.m contemplating the wonder of waheguru...i.m already somewhat in his domain...attention is fixed somewhat...and more inclined to hear his call Lol

That's what i.ve found anyway...just my own experience...

Chaz,

To be honest, what you wrote is utter rubbish and incoherent but we have gone through this before so I would leave it like that.
Just one more thing, repeating and contemplating are two opposite things hence it is oxy{censored}ic to think like that you can do both at the same time and you are NOT,"But if i.m contemplating the wonder of waheguru...i.m already somewhat in his domain...attention is fixed somewhat...and more inclined to hear his call Lol "

But whatever picks you up.

 

[chazSingh]

Not really. What is the difference between chanting Vaheguru, Om, a Buddhist chant or Lady Gaga?
All would feel the same trance due to the chemo-biological reaction in our brains. Nothing much.
Sadly, we all have our own interpretation of it because we do not understand our Guru's message from the SGGS, our only Guru. Naam, Simran and other catchy words are used by many to emulate what are Hindu and Buddhist rituals. Nowhere in the SGGS, this kind of repetition normally known as Simran is mentioned, nor do our Janam Sakhis, how flawed they may be, say that our Gurus chanted 'Vaheguru' repeatedly for hours as many jathas do nowadays.

Many people get up in the early hours, do the 'Simran' and go off to sleep which is a bit odd it seems because then whatever energy one is able to gather with the repetition goes to waste. If one is into it, it is fine but one should make this practice as a springboard, not a lullaby.

Regarding Naam, there is a very interesting video by Harinder Singh which is posted on SPN. I will ask the Admin ji to post it in this thread.

Having said this, please do not think I am telling you it is a waste of time. It would be a waste of time if this 'Simran' is used as a warm-up for running a marathon without running one.



As a Sikh, no question is out. It is our duty to question as Guru Nanak did when he questioned the meaningfulness of a janeiu that he refused to wear.
So, ask along as many questions, doubts, disagreements you may have. Don't feel shy about it. Sikhi is based on that

Cherish and relish your journey.

Sorry just wanted to add one more thing

Yes just mindlessly chanting or mentally repeating waheguru is worthless...
But if one is contemplating waheguru...what waheguru is...where is waheguru...etc...then the repetition becomes meaningful. Mind Is fixed on a subject..

Often during simran i don't repeat anyword...i have my own personal dialogue...telling waheguru of my negative aspects...of how the panj door are influencing my behaviour...asking for waheguru help to overcome etc etc...

Whilst there is then no repetition of any Bani.. my mind is still contemplating...the inner light still manifests and energy flows...and I am becoming more and more aware of me(soul)...the multidimensional 'me

This is in no way a simple trance like state...mindblowinh...thats all I can say really...

 

[chazSingh]

Chaz,

To be honest, what you wrote is utter rubbish and incoherent but we have gone through this before so I would leave it like that.
Just one more thing, repeating and contemplating are two opposite things hence it is oxy{censored}ic to think like that you can do both at the same time and you are NOT,"But if i.m contemplating the wonder of waheguru...i.m already somewhat in his domain...attention is fixed somewhat...and more inclined to hear his call Lol "

But whatever picks you up.

Are you telling me you're unable to say a word and contemplate the subject of the word you're saying...both at the same time?

Oh dear Lord )

Also...'rubbish and incoherent?...thats fine by me...as Guru Nanak dev Ji said himself...describing one's mingling with Waheguru is as hard as steel.

I hope you mingle one day with waheguru...then Harry Ji will probably also tell you that your words are rubbish and incoherent lol

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Sorry just wanted to add one more thing

Yes just mindlessly chanting or mentally repeating waheguru is worthless...

But if one is contemplating waheguru...what waheguru is...where is waheguru...etc...then the repetition becomes meaningful. Mind Is fixed on a subject..

Often during simran i don't repeat anyword...i have my own personal dialogue...telling waheguru of my negative aspects...of how the panj door are influencing my behaviour...asking for waheguru help to overcome etc etc...

Whilst there is then no repetition of any Bani.. my mind is still contemplating...the inner light still manifests and energy flows...and I am becoming more and more aware of me(soul)...the multidimensional 'me

This is in no way a simple trance like state...mindblowinh...thats all I can say really...

Chaz,

I am glad you do not repeat but contemplate in a dialogue as a self-reflection now. I am happy you have evolved from the repetition to contemplation. I love this change and congratulations!

 

[chazSingh]

Chaz,

I am glad you do not repeat but contemplate in a dialogue as a self-reflection now. I am happy you have evolved from the repetition to contemplation. I love this change and congratulations!

Been doing it since before my very first post on this forum...for many many year lol

It is you that hears the words simran and equates to mindless parroting...

Assumptions as we know are the mother of all fu**ups

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Been doing it since before my very first post on this forum...for many many year lol

It is you that hears the words simran and equates to mindless parroting...

Assumptions as we know are the mother of all fu**ups

Well, I am glad, but this is the first time I have seen you change your tune.
Do you mean in the posts of the past where you repeated repetitions all the times meant nothing? You can pull your own posts out and you will find that this is all new from you which is a good thing.

Assumptions as we know are the mother of all fu**ups

I agree and you are the master of this trait of yours.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Are you telling me you're unable to say a word and contemplate the subject of the word you're saying...both at the same time?

Oh dear Lord )

Also...'rubbish and incoherent?...thats fine by me...as Guru Nanak dev Ji said himself...describing one's mingling with Waheguru is as hard as steel.

I hope you mingle one day with waheguru...then Harry Ji will probably also tell you that your words are rubbish and incoherent lol

Please post the full shabad with your own understanding of your claim above in bold so all of us can learn from Guru Nanak. Thanks.