In 300 Years, Will A Sikh Wear A Kirpan Or A Lightsaber?

[spnadmin]

Thinking outside the box

Once again we come to the knotty issue. Is creativity better? Khalsa have made a covenant with the quom and the Guru. A voluntarily decision, as far back as the first Baisakhi, to give up their heads, to do the dance of love, with a Guru who is still asking for heads. Creativity? The decision to wear kakkars is a choice made freely to cede some small but significant part of individuality, a free-ranging instinct of ego to think we can do it better. A sacrifice, a gift.

Perhaps the kakkars will change. Maybe amrit sanchar will change. Or the Sikh Rehat Maryada which outlines the requirements and duties of Khalsa to the quom will change. But creativity won't be the motivation or the means for such a change.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Once again we come to the knotty issue. Is creativity better? Khalsa have made a covenant with the quom and the Guru. A voluntarily decision, as far back as the first Baisakhi, to give up their heads, to do the dance of love, with a Guru who is still asking for heads. Creativity? The decision to wear kakkars is a choice made freely to cede some small but significant part of individuality, a free-ranging instinct of ego to think we can do it better. A sacrifice, a gift.

Perhaps the kakkars will change. Maybe amrit sanchar will change. Or the Sikh Rehat Maryada which outlines the requirements and duties of Khalsa to the quom will change. But creativity won't be the motivation or the means for such a change.

spnadmin ji I perhaps did no state it clearly. I am not suggesting change but that the technology could evolve which will only enhance Kirpan, the sheath as well as the Gatra. Nothing more and nothing less. If Sikh Rehat Maryada 300 years from now so chose not to allow it, that will be so fine too. However if it did adapt or allow such, that will be fine too for me.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Once again we come to the knotty issue. Is creativity better? Khalsa have made a covenant with the quom and the Guru. A voluntarily decision, as far back as the first Baisakhi, to give up their heads, .

Dear Spnadmin Ji
It is not about creativity as much as the need to be progressive ,after all we are the most modern religion but we are stuck in our own history, "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change"
Charles Darwin

 

[BhagatSingh]

Why does it have to be a kirpan OR a lightsabre? Why not both together as one weapon?

Maybe the Kirpan handle can be engineered to be a light sabre. On one side you have the metal blade, and when activated the light sabre appears on the opposite side. You get the best of both ancient and modern.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Why does it have to be a kirpan OR a lightsabre? Why not both together as one weapon?

Maybe the Kirpan handle can be engineered to be a light sabre. On one side you have the metal blade, and when activated the light sabre appears on the opposite side. You get the best of both ancient and modern.

BhagatSingh ji I got nailed for saying the same in my post(s). For example even spnadmin ji kind of objected,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36798-300-years-will-sikh-wear-kirpan-2.html

Let us see if gloves come off for you too lol

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

This is what I actually said

Perhaps the kakkars will change. Maybe amrit sanchar will change. Or the Sikh Rehat Maryada which outlines the requirements and duties of Khalsa to the quom will change. But creativity won't be the motivation or the means for such a change.

So I was not ruling out the possibility of change.

Let's put our thinking caps on and figure why the kirpan is metal. Historical and spiritual reasoning would relate. Then we might get a bead on the motivation for collective will to change.

Whether steel or brass or some other metal might be light activated (pardon my reductio ad simplicitas) would certainly be the stuff of hundreds of internet threads of the future. A Beadbi? Not a beadbi? Surely we would also read bitter debates about whether amrit for amrit sanchar could be stirred with anything that was light activated. Ultimately the panth has the resources to decide in a rational way. Will it?

BTW I never wear gloves. Too cumbersome.

 

[Ambarsaria]

spnadmin ji I was not there 300 years ago and I won't be here 300 years hence. The patents don't last that long for me to do any creative work for any more on this thread. I am slightly familiar with the Sarb Loh concept and it is worth carrying forward but Sikhism always needs to continue a validation with times whether something as change comes out of such is for Sangat of the times to decide for sure.

I challenge anyone to prove that the Iron used today to make Kirpans is the same formula from our Guru's times when there were no steel mills in Punjab or the region.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Ambarsaria and Bhagat Singh Ji,If symbolism is what matters and not utility ,then why not just carry a hologram of a kirpan?

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rFWGJ72j6Yk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[aristotle]

The answer is not the 'Kirpan or Lightsaber', it is instead 'Kirpan and Lightsaber'. Sikhism never forbids carrying a second weapon. You may do so if the need arises and the law permits. The Kirpan has far more meanings attached to it rather than just an assault weapon.

 

[kds1980]

The actual Kirpan that Guru's ordered to wear was 3feet long kirpan.If I am not wrong the present 9 inch Kirpan was compromise with the Britishers as they were not allowing Sikhs to wear the original length

 

[aristotle]

The actual Kirpan that Guru's ordered to wear was 3feet long kirpan.If I am not wrong the present 9 inch Kirpan was compromise with the Britishers as they were not allowing Sikhs to wear the original length

Any references that the original kirpan included in the 5ks was 3 feet long, I mean, why specifically so and what's wrong in the 9 inch kirpans??

 

[kds1980]

Any references that the original kirpan included in the 5ks was 3 feet long, I mean, why specifically so and what's wrong in the 9 inch kirpans??

Since when a 9 inch long when weapon is called Kirpan? Kirpan is clearly a weapon with good length.Nepali's too wear a small dagger which is called Khukhri
Anyway here there was discussion in which one person mentioned that the size of Kirpan was shortened

http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/di...80D92E0CDDD234D387257336002F6DA8!OpenDocument

Nihang sites too mention this

 

[kds1980]

Weapons - Modern Kirpan
Weapons
Main Page
Khanda Sword
Tulwar Sword
Modern Kirpan
Chakkar Quoit
Katar Dagger
Tabar Axe
Dhal Shield
Shastar Nam Mala Poem

In earlier times the sacred kirpan carried by Sikhs had traditionally been the full size tulwar sword. By the 20th century the kirpan carried by Sikhs had evolved from the typical 30 inch blade of a tulwar sword to a short blade less than 18 inches.


Early 20th century kirpan with inlaid mother of pearl handle
12.5 inches in length, ca. 1920's - 1930's, private collection

The change in blade length of the sacred kirpan from a sword to a knife was a difficult one for Sikhs and a direct result of onerous laws passed by the British in India. Under the Indian Arms Act (XI) of 1878, no person could carry arms except under special exemption or by virtue of a licence; the act was applied to the Sikh kirpan. At the advent of World War I, the British government fearing that the ban would affect Sikh recruitment into the British Army, thought it advisable to relax the enforcement of the provision. Between 1914 and 1918, two notifications were issued by the British government giving Sikhs the freedom to possess or carry a kirpan. However the terms of these notifications were vague; the size and shape of the kirpan having remained undefined; prosecution of the Sikhs for wearing, carrying and manufacturing the kirpan continued. During the period of the Gurudwara Reform Movement (1920-1925), the British revoked the notifications and Sikhs were once again prosecuted and imprisoned, Sikh soldiers in the armed forces were even court marshalled and dismissed for keeping kirpans. In 1921 the kirpan factories at Bhera and Sialkot in Punjab were raided and all kirpans exceeding 9 inches in length were seized and the owners of the factories put under arrest. Eventually in 1922 after negotiations between the British and the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee the Sikhs again won the right to carry their kirpans, although now with a much shorter blade. [1]

http://www.sikhmuseum.com/nishan/weapons/kirpan.html

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

If it looks like a dagger, feels like a dagger, it's a dagger!I think when we were given it centuries ago ,the Guru saw it simply as a dagger,there was no lecture given on the origin of the word kirpan or anything else! A primary need had to be addressed to survive we had to have some sort of defence at that time.It has been shortened ,remember this was centuries ago and before the rule of law and before a proper police force existed.Needs must and Alls Fair in Love and War.In peace time I think the Guru may have decided to relax the requirement.

Was the smaller kirpan the required K from the outset ,because the larger kirpan would not be practical to keep at your side always.

 

[spnadmin]

Thanks to all, especially for refocusing the thread, and the historical information from kds1980 ji.Understanding how change occurs, the history of change, the circumstances that shape change, the emotions and religious issues that surround change, and the social impact, all are very important.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Thanks to all, especially for refocusing the thread, and the historical information from kds1980 ji.Understanding how change occurs, the history of change, the circumstances that shape change, the emotions and religious issues that surround change, and the social impact, all are very important.

spnadmin ji thanks.

Special thanks to kds1980 for the reference material.

Let it be left to the future generations to enhance the Kirpan and make it effective and consistent with the glory days of Sikhism and the technologies that become available in the future. Always to be done with participation and civil discourse, agreement and blessing of Khalsa Panth.

Go Sikhs Go animatedkhanda1 mundahug.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Special thankyou to me,sorry I meant thee, I once raised a similar question on my facebook account, when a full group of Sikhs were removed from DraytonManor Park this year .( Health and Safety on rides) one of the boys kirpan had showed.



I asked why not one Sikh respectfully carry all the kirpans for the group

Isn't this done today while flying where people hand over the Kirpan to the Pilot/cabin staff?

The response from Amritdhari friends was very angry ,maybe this should be on another thread but hey ho!

Thanks for starting the thread as it brought out good information in the dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Veera the question is if you can do that for a nine hour flight ,then why can't you go to work for nine hours if you have to do so, I'm not advocating leaving it at home , I say this by way of discourse only no disrespect meant.

Sinner ji perfectly valid philosophical question but I don't want to go there peacesign!

Why do they have constitutional guarantee to bear arms in the USA! The wise men thought, let no body be allowed to bully/intimidate anyone. As the threat of a slug in the forehead if you violate, does create peace, may be!

Another place another time, but wonderful dialog can be had over a pop :interestedmunda:

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[aristotle]

I am going to be a Doc in some 4 yrs from now, so, I wonder if the full sized 3 feet long kirpan would be practicable while doing a surgery or attending to the patients. There would be a similar question for many other professions. We have to find some way out, after all, at the same time maintaining the Amritdhari identity.

 

[kds1980]

I am going to be a Doc in some 4 yrs from now, so, I wonder if the full sized 3 feet long kirpan would be practicable while doing a surgery or attending to the patients. There would be a similar question for many other professions. We have to find some way out, after all, at the same time maintaining the Amritdhari identity.

Well all agree that 3 feet kirpans are not practical in present world,but again the question of practicability could arises for other issue's as well