Integrity And Honesty In Discussion

[Kully]

So you admit

So you admit

Japji sahib Ji, Harkiran Ji, if the author has hismeslf written that the Chandi banis are taken from Chandi purans that what need is there for for me to admit or deny anything?

Japjisahib , it's apity that you can select a part of the text and try to misrepresent it, but can't work out what the writer has said blatantly said himself.

It would be inappropriate to discuss the individual charitars in full because this site is accessible to minors.

That is not an excuse. Minors are taught about reproduction and such in their early teens. I doubt that any people in their early teens would be members on this or any other Sikh forum.

But, if you truly beleive that to be a viable excuse, then please don't post any more text from Charitropakhyan here as we cannot discuss it, and there will be no purpose or need to to post things that we cannot discuss.

I will find the relevant charitars and create separate topics for them, as I feel that you are afraid that as your study into the text background was not accurate, your study into the meaning of the actual Charitars may not be accurate either.

 

[Kully]

Please tell us, Why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji bother to translate for us his Sikhs, beliefs from other ideologies which were already rejected right from the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

It wasn't their ideology that Guru Sahib was promoting with writings of DG. In fact it was completely the opposite. Remember you said that the DG was written by Hindus in the 1800s to bring SIkhs back into the Hindu fold? And then when I posted 2 lines from DG that showed that your assertion could not be the case?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I will find the relevant charitars and create separate topics for them, as I feel that you are afraid that as your study into the text background was not accurate, your study into the meaning of the actual Charitars may not be accurate either.

Oh please start with the with the horse one!!! I'm dying to know the deeper meaning of that one LOL no please don't...

Btw I am not afraid of anything! I just don't think it's appropriate to post vulgar stories that involve subjects which go way outside what constitute normal human relations where younger members can see it. Honestly you want young teens reading about subjects like bestiality? Not just reading about the subjects but actual descriptive stories which describe the acts in full (disgusting) details? Since when is beastiality part of normal reproduction taught to minors??

That is not an excuse. Minors are taught about reproduction and such in their early teens.

By the way we have had at least several young members that I can recall in the range of 13-15 years old.

Honestly I agree with Swarn Bains Ji...

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

It wasn't their ideology that Guru Sahib was promoting with writings of DG. In fact it was completely the opposite.

So why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji promote ideology which you say is 'completely opposite' to what the rest of the Gurus taught? Wouldn't that suggest he was not of the same light as the rest of the Gurus? All the Gurus had same ideology and teaching becaus they were the same light - we call them all Nanak for this reason. So why would Nanak 10 all of a sudden deviate to belief in an ideology that is 'completely opposite' to the rest? That would make him a false Guru - which we know can't be true.

 

[Kully]

Oh please start with the with the horse one!!!

All in good time.

I just don't think it's appropriate to post vulgar stories that involve subjects which go way outside what constitute normal human relations where younger members can see it.

Then why is it appropriate to talk about that stuff on forums and possibly excite the readers curiosty? By talking about it, aren't you really leading them to read about it? Maybe it would be better from now on if you don't throw selective snippets of Charitropakhyan around.

Honestly you want young teens reading about subjects like bestiality?

I would give teens more credit than you give them and say that they would already be aware of such acts.

Where would you draw the line though? SGGS mentions the words vagina, prostitute, breasts etc, so would young teens not need protecting from that?

 

[Kully]

So why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji promote ideology which you say is 'completely opposite' to what the rest of the Gurus taught? .

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, Guru Gobind Singh promoted an ideaology that was completely against the Hindus and what they believed., not the Gurus.

 

[Admin]

It would be inappropriate to discuss the individual charitars in full because this site is accessible to minors.

@Harkiran Kaur ji, i agree with @Kully ji on this point. Let there be thorough and in-depth discussion on every Charitar so that readers can make up their own mind... However, there is no compulsion or obligation on you to be a part of such discussions.

@Kully ji, nobody is stopping you from starting new individual threads on every Charitar. However, as the ball is in your court, going forward, in every charitar, first you must present your own full interpretations line by line and then, provide the theme or moral of each charitar based on your understanding.

And then readers can read these interpretations under the light of the Gurmat Principles laid down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, our Only Guru.

Shall we?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Where would you draw the line though? SGGS mentions the words vagina, prostitute, breasts etc, so would young teens not need protecting from that?

There is a huge HUGE difference between knowing about something as a concept and reading a full on pornographic story depicting the act in full descriptive language. I am sure you will agree!!!

There is a huge difference between mentioning the word prostitute as a descriptive, and full on describing sexual acts in full details. Including sexual acts that fall outside of normal reproduction.



By the way breasts are not actually sexual. They are a symbol of providing sustenance - feeding children is their primary function. We dont get all excited talking about milking cows do we?? You mean tuks like this one? I see nothing sexual about this at all. It's talking about being absorbed in pride so much you no longer provide anything of sustenance to others... Breasts no longer yield milk.

Page 242, Line 9
ਮੈ ਮਤ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਗਰਬਿ ਗਾਲੀ ਦੁਧਾ ਥਣੀ ਨ ਆਵਏ ॥
Mai maṯ joban garab gālī ḏuḏẖā thaṇī na āv▫e.
Intoxicated with the wine of youthful pride, she has been ruined, and her breasts no longer yield milk.
Guru Nanak Dev

That is a far cry from what is contained in DG.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

@Harkiran Kaur ji, i agree with @Kully ji on this point. Let there be thorough and in-depth discussion on every Charitar so that readers can up make their own minds... However, there is no compulsion or obligation on you to be a part of such discussions.

@Kully ji, nobody is stopping you from starting new individual threads on every Charitar. However, as the ball in your court, going forward, in every charitar, first you must present your own full interpretations line by line and then, provide the theme or moral of each charitar based on your understanding.

And then readers can read these interpretation under the light of the Gurmat Principles laid down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, our Only Guru.

Shall we?

I would maybe suggest to create a new sub forum in hard talk for it and put a disclaimer for 18 + or at least say it deals with descriptive sexual subjects.

 

[Admin]

I would maybe suggest to create a new sub forum in hard talk for it and put a disclaimer for 18 + or at least say it deals with descriptive sexual subjects.

We already have a section setup for Charitropakhyan. Based on your suggestion, we will put a little notice to comply with your reservations. Thank you

 

[Harry Haller]

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, Guru Gobind Singh promoted an ideaology that was completely against the Hindus and what they believed., not the Gurus.

If I may interject, it is utterly pointless bringing in exact quotes and wordings from the DG, Kullyji, you say the DG speaks in metaphors, unless you wish to go round and round in circles, can you proceed with your interpretation and the meaning of these metaphors, we can start with something that our younger readers can read, say deception of women, etc, you do not have to choose any animal related content, just keep it clean and make your point so that we can continue the discussion.

 

[Original]

Thank you for that H -

Yes, for legal reasons, I'd like us to be mindful of the rights and responsibilities of the individual/organisation when exhibiting material of religious sensibility. Any material which represent a real and immediate threat to security and sensibility should be censored. This would mean respecting boundaries and controlling expressions accordingly.

Goodnight

 

[Admin]

Thank you for that H -

Yes, for legal reasons, I'd like us to be mindful of the rights and responsibilities of the individual/organisation when exhibiting material of religious sensibility. Any material which represent a real and immediate threat to security and sensibility should be censored. This would mean respecting boundaries and controlling expressions accordingly.

Goodnight

@Original ji, you are here to guide us in that aspect!

 

[Original]

@Original ji, you are here to guide us in that aspect!

Thank you Admin Ji !

What I'd like us to be careful of is the sensitive nature of the literature in question and how delicately it ought to be expressed; bearing in mind of course, expressor's own stance. And, from what I gather so far, there is a good reason to treat such literature as incidental and not actual articles of Sikh Faith. That way, both the letter and the spirit of the literature can be preserved and freedom of expression exercised.

Good day !

 

[Parma]

The GGS isn't based on the concept of laws like the 10 commandments, but on a council of mohabbat of the ultimate spiritual guidance. I believe that the DG is a try to look into the area and prospect of law within Sikhi. As the Guru Granth Sahib ji is based on mohabbat in its fullest definition and the Dasam Granth could be a collective thought process to look into the process of implementation of some type of laws upon the view and basis of love to the extremist of thought processes in the field of love. The Devine has no Asool on love in the Guru Granth Sahib ji and so it seems like the prospect of a chance to display asool=law for humane interaction between the lord's spiritual and physical presence of the Akaal, the timeless soul.

 

[Admin]

I believe that the DG is a try to look into the area and prospect of law within Sikhi.

Please purport your comments with some supporting extracts from the scriptures in consideration. Otherwise, your statement just comes as a little ambiguous.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

The GGS isn't based on the concept of laws like the 10 commandments, but on a council of mohabbat of the ultimate spiritual guidance. I believe that the DG is a try to look into the area and prospect of law within Sikhi. As the Guru Granth Sahib ji is based on mohabbat in its fullest definition and the Dasam Granth could be a collective thought process to look into the process of implementation of some type of laws upon the view and basis of love to the extremist of thought processes in the field of love. The Devine has no Asool on love in the Guru Granth Sahib ji and so it seems like the prospect of a chance to display asool=law for humane interaction between the lord's spiritual and physical presence of the Akaal, the timeless soul.

Please explain how this analysis would work when it seems it is aimed only at males as a means to control females? If the divine wishes to give HUMANS laws governing love, then why would it not be both ways and for all humans? It's written with messages directly given to males (don't trust females, don't give your secrets to females, women should never do anything independently without their husbands permission etc) and the messages are one of control and domination of male over female. (The message is if the female has any control then you will be deceived, ruined or killed even). Do you think the Divine thinks this way about the female? Is this a warning to men about women? Was the line in charitar 312 correct? That God regretted creating females?

 

[Parma]

Please purport your comments with some supporting extracts from the scriptures in consideration. Otherwise, your statement just comes as a little ambiguous.

I am discussing the nature of the work. I don't feel that it is necessary to quote anything that I am trying to explain, it is a kind of a simple explanation and it is up to the writer on what they wish to debate and point they want to make. Without being rude. Please give consideration to others and use your own method or writing style to express yourself.

Please explain how this analysis would work when it seems it is aimed only at males as a means to control females? If the divine wishes to give HUMANS laws governing love, then why would it not be both ways and for all humans? It's written with messages directly given to males (don't trust females, don't give your secrets to females, women should never do anything independently without their husbands permission etc) and the messages are one of control and domination of male over female. (The message is if the female has any control then you will be deceived, ruined or killed even). Do you think the Divine thinks this way about the female? Is this a warning to men about women? Was the line in charitar 312 correct? That God regretted creating females?

The point of the Dasam Granth seems to be enabled at the expression of the most barbaric and basic human interaction the fact that the stories are gender typed is a point worth noting. Who implements laws males or females to the most basic thought process is something worth debating. Then I guess it would be fitting to debate the seed from where the debate starts and so you see the Dasam Granth doesn't debate laws but the scenario types and expressions and in the end it comes down to this simple point. It doesn't matter what has bought your birth what matters is how you live your life and to hurt and disregard each other no matter how much we want to or castracize each other is against the most basic hukam of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji's value, which is mohabbat of Ek Onkar and that is why the Guru Granth Sahib ji is the King above all. Baba
Fariduddin Ganjshakar ji's points I guess we could analyse in the Guru Granth Sahib's ji's gurbani but I cannot do a disserving to self learning as the religion is Sikhi and I am a Sikh always learning. Nirankar.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Parma ji,

Guru Fateh.

I gather from your posts that you claim your certainty that DG was written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji .

What made you come to that conclusion?

Could your share some concrete examples please?

If I am not mistaken, that is what Adminsinghji is trying to ask.

Thanks

 

[Parma]

Parma ji,

Guru Fateh.

I gather from your posts that you claim your certainty that DG was written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji .

What made you come to that conclusion?

Could your share some concrete examples please?

If I am not mistaken, that is what Adminsinghji is trying to ask.

Thanks

I can only go by trying to understand its interpretation the actual factual evidence of how the literature is regarded as acknowledgement of authentication on the Guru ji's work I can only gain by trying to understand its context. Any law that has ever been made or applied has been after human interaction and the Granth has literature more on actions then it does on the implementation of actions in its defence of being seen as a form of guidance on spiritual literature, (before actions(=Dasam Granth) comes feelings(= Guru Granth), (my few thoughts)). The rest I guess is for individual interpretation some individuals don't claim any benefit after reading the alphabet, is the glass full or empty that's for the reader to decide and how they perceive views.

STILL - DR. DRE = Development of Religious Education, We still use Doctors lol

Thank you.