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Interfaith Marriage - Muslim & Sikh

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Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear DalSingh-Ji,

Do not confuse fundamentalist Muslims with the Sufis - its a big mistake.

You write: "If you had any respect at all for Sikhs you wouldn't be saying what you're saying and be leaving us alone."

If you have read by previous posts then you will see that what Maakanz is saying is very different from what I am saying. For example, I do NOT advocate for Sikh-Muslim marriages as such whereas Maakanz, I think, does.
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
Being a sikh raised out of India, I do not understand this hatred or strong ill-feeling against muslims. I have been raised by an educated family, who has always followed the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib. Nowhere in this does it state to put down others because of their cast or religion.

Yes, we are all equal and yes our own vanities as humans have caused this seperation and fight for power in the name of religion.
I think such feverent comments against religions are driven out of fear and only fuel ill-feelings amongst the religions.

Were you there when these fights occurred? Are we not meant to learn from our past? If we do hold onto the past and use it to fuel anger then will we not end up repeating the past?
What's the point of that?

Yes, it is all very revolutionary to state that we should all behave as equals etc etc. and very hard to digest because most of the Indian population still have such great hatred in their hearts for Pakistanis. I've tried to understand from so many people why this is so..and the only reply I get is just 'because it is'. Wow - now that is revolutionary considering its 2007.

Many good, good points.
Firstly, yes being raised outside of India one is subjected to constant bs of everything under the sun is equal and let us all be friends. Nice, but you are kidding yourself if you think the vast majority of other peoples and religions think you and the guru's teachings are equal to theirs. So while you take the high road, be aware of who is on the low road, and what their objectives may be.

I think people are generally ignorant and amnestic about partition of India. My honest and researched view is that a lot of the violence was instigated by the muslims, and then there were retaliations by the Sikhs of the middle of Punjab. If you read, the earliest violence was along the Northwest frontier provinces, as the Pathans needed little encouragement for molestation of others. Ask yourself a simple question: Who is more prone to communal violence: A sikh who is brought up being brainwashed to accept all faiths and peoples as equal, and with nary a thought to conversion of others, or someone whose religion says go out, kill or convert the {censored}, and by the way, have some halal meat here before you go, and do not forget to slit the throat of this poor animal and drain its blood before you gobble it down. So again, feel free to be idealistic, but idealism without knowledge can be detrimental.

Your comment about letting go of the past has merit, and probably is what is needed for peace and prosperity on the indian subcontinent. But a few remarks regarding the animosity and "hatred" between India and Pakistan.
You may ask why there are no old beautiful hindu temples throughout much of northern India -- because they were all destroyed and looted (while members were butchered and raped) and mosques built on top of it. Take a look at why the "Hindu Kush" is called that --- it means Hindu killer. When the central asians had conquered the weak and womanly hindus of the time, they took Lakhs and LAKHS of slaves to markets of central asia and middle east to be sold off. Can you imagine what they did to the women they captured? Anyway, legend has it that as a caravan of hindu slaves was being pushed through one of these passes, night time temperatures dropped and 100,000 people died, possibly giving birth to the name "hindu kush" mountains. We do not need to go into the other sundry massacres, wanton destruction of hindu and buddhist culture, and the looting and raping of society at large. Sooooooooo........while you are saying the right thing, why should the people of India love and smile at those who nearly destroyed their culture and religion? Also, a deeper point for you. The pakistanis are deeply schizophrenic about themselves. They are brown, they wear silwar kameez, they eat dal, roti also, they speak similar languages ---- they know we all belong together. They also know that all our forefathers were the same, and I think this is something abhorent to their notion of being an Islamic state, of being separate from us or need to seem to be different from us. For if you scratch nearly any Pakistani, there is a hindu underneath, somewhere and somewhen.

Also, look at modern history. The three wars India has had with pakistan, why did they occur? India has always held back because of superpower considerations,and never delivered a knock out blow to pakistan. Sikh and Indian troops had reached the lahore railway station in 1971. We gave a fair bit of land back, in hopes of peace. We gave them a good black eye in the creation of bangladesh, with surrender of 90,000 pakistanis to India, the largest surrender at that time since WWII and their release was based on the understanding that the Kashmir LOC would become the border. So what did our neighborly friends do? Start a rebellion in Kashmir, which they still cannot win back. Take the Kargil episode, with Pakistani forces invading Kashmir while Vajpayee is talking peace with Musharraf. Hmmmmmm....now what is it that you do not understand regarding India's dislike of pakistan?

And to end off this long post, look at what our sikhs did during that time. Our soldiers were instrumental in pushing back the pathans and afghans and pakistanis from Kashmir in 1947-48. Sikh regiments were airlifted to Srinagar. Nehru was asked if we should proceed to Skardu, Gilgit and Baltistan while we had the enemy on the run. The answer was NO, let us take it to the UN! In 1965 and 1971, do you really think India would have withstood Pakistan on its western border without Sikhs? The shameless Indian kuthay even gave the order to withdraw to Beas in 1965 when Pakistanis had launched a strong thrust into Punjab, and it was General Harbaksh Singh who disobeyed orders to fall back to Beas. The Indian high command was willing to cede western punjab to protect more central core areas in the north. Time and again, many brave Sikhs, Rajputs, Gurkhas and Jats have fought to push back unprovoked Pakistani aggression.

Anyway, if you have read all this, I hope it lends more to think about this complex topic.
 

makkanz

SPNer
Feb 2, 2007
42
3
badmash you have some very valid points. So what do you propose for the future? I know you are being a realist and i appreciate that. The question i ask is this ... where does this end? Where does this start to change ... or because all these things happened in history .. the newer generations ... do they keep getting taught the history .. and who did what ... and parents filling their childrens hearts with hate ... is this the future?
 

makkanz

SPNer
Feb 2, 2007
42
3
do we keep repeating the past? over and over and over and over and over and over ... the muslim youths harrasing sikh girls .. and the sikhs fighting back .. and we keep repeating the past ...should we not be smarter?
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Politics is the low-road and spirituality the high-road.

Politics is rooted in circumstances; spirituality on certainties;

Politics produces hate; spirituality produces love;

Politics is focused on experience; spirituality on truth;

Politics is about separation; spirituality is about union;


I think we are simply fed up with the politics of hate and are interested in the spirituality that unites us.
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
do we keep repeating the past? over and over and over and over and over and over ... the muslim youths harrasing sikh girls .. and the sikhs fighting back .. and we keep repeating the past ...should we not be smarter?

Makanz,

Firstly recognise who are and have been in the wrong throughout their history. Who are the ones who spread themselves in the name of God without a shred of compassion for the other kafirs?

As to what should go on now, just a suggestion off the top of my head, maybe Sikh guys need to stop {censored} footing about and give a decisive unrecoverable blow to the per vert phantom menace?

Until people stop being brainwashed into hating and thinking others are inferior and that they are especially commisioned by God to dictate/impose a particular worldview on the world then we aren't going to get anywhere.

You need to get off this forum and try and communicate with more fundementalist Muslims and try and show them that their behaviour and views are bad for the world. They may listen to you because you are a muslim. If we try they will no doubt lie and not listen to us lowly infidel scum.

Sort your own people out before you try and make reparations. Plus you are only interested in thsi subject because you want to be with a Sikh girl. That is your only and true motivation isn't it?
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
You are absolutely correct sir. I appreciate your open mindedness. But I truly believe the ball is in the other court, certainly not in that of the Sikhs. We do not stand in anyone's way, for we have no justification whatsoever for telling anyone what do think, do, eat, or how to pray. For world peace the religions and people who believe they are special, they are the only way or have some special divine "place" must believe in universality of humanity, and give due respect due to all people and cultures. I truly feel the problem stems from this lack. But obviously, it has to start somewhere and so you are indeed right, and knowledgeable, and I hope that people such as yourself will be more and more outspoken. For if indeed newer generations cannot forget the past, and look at each other with respect then we are all in trouble. But this ethos must also grow around the world. I for one honestly beleive, forgive me, that we as Sikhs have done quite a bit already. We already have a tough time holding on to our faith and culture, being such a minority. As far as the India Pakistan thing goes, it is not the Indians who hold things up. It is the radicals, extremists, and conservatives on the Pakistani side. People such as yourself need to espouse this same question and ethos with them. And they are a hard sell no doubt!!
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
My post was in response to Mr. Makkanz's comments, agreeing with him. Lot of posts in the time it took me to write that!
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
As this topic shows, the divisions are very deep. Even as literate, educated people, we can hardly agree with each other. What do you think it is like for those on the street? It has been said above, but bears repeating. Even if you forget the past, new ways of thinking are necessary. And those new ways need to start with those who espouse hatred, violence and discrimination even if they do it indirectly. Let me put it this way. I have never heard in a Gurudwara service any condemnation, criticisim, put down, or derogatory remark regarding any other faith or people. Is this true for Islam? I cannot say as I have never been to a Masjid. Please feel free to reply, as I truly am not in a position to say.
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
I've been to a few muslim "conferences" over the years Badmash. Your average Singh would have a heart attack hearing what stuff they come out with in the name of our creator. Often they are specifically designed to belittle other faiths and give themselves a sense of superiority as God's "elect". No doubt many mosques repeat this same jazz.

My cousin in Germany actually went to a mosque and when he visited here a few years ago he specifically told me that what he heard coming from the speakers there was absolutely disgusting and hate filled towards non muslims. So this may be international not just confined to the U.K.

Plus you can plainly look at actions of many muslim "men" and get an idea of what kind of values permeate sections of that community.

Even if many people of Sikh background are less then perfect i.e. boozed up, fist fighters etc. still we haven't gone so low as to try and organise mass harassment and the attempted oppression of other communities from our Gurdwaras.
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
Thanks for the information. I would encourage any of our Muslims participants to weigh in as well, otherwise many of us are left with our own assumptions.
 

vaapaaraa

SPNer
Jul 15, 2004
196
6
Dear Vaapaara-Ji,

Precisely my point!

Kaur-Ji seems to want to squeeze as much hostility out of a non-issue as is humanly possible. I am really worried about her.

So, my question was, if ALL muslims are the SAME, why not remove the name of Hazrat Mian Mir Ji or Emperor Akbar from Sikh history? After all, they too, are simply "MUSLIMS" according to Kaur-Ji? This discussion is going nowhere, clearly.

Nadeem, Lets not talk about hazrat mian mir, sikhs respect him, anyway only you know what preaching goes on in certain mosques, and what hatred is bred against other communities including sikhism. Today's sikh parents don't even want their daughters near muslims, as the acts of a few labels the whole community. So there is no need to even go near the topic of marriage between sikh and muslims. Your right, this discussion is going nowhere, so I can understand why kaur-1 is ignoring you.

Don't worry about kaur-1 or other of my sikh sisters,
if they have prejudice against muslims, its safer for them to not fall in the same situations as others have before.
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dearest Vaapaaraa,

Let us not be distracted by fundamentalist Muslims who are trying very hard to sow divisions among people. Guru Nanak- Ji showed us ALL the right discernment, between TRUTH and FALSEHOOD. Let no Sikh Sister feel that she cannot learn from Baba Nanak-Ji, who was the first to realise how some Muslims were falsely giving their name to "Islam". The question of Muslim-Sikh marriage is not even in question. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. What is necessary, though, in my person view, is that people should show much better discernment between truth and falsehood so that they are able to see clearly which people are promoting LOVE and which people are promoting WAR. Love is the greater than politics.
 
Jul 10, 2006
918
77
Let no Sikh Sister feel that she cannot learn from Baba Nanak-Ji, who was the first to realise how some Muslims were falsely giving their name to "Islam".


Man!! You are something else. God help us!! What a condescending remark from a pakistani!.

I am a Sikh women and How dare you make such a comment!. Now I am really annoyed!:mad: I am learning Gurbani just fine.!
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
Nadeem

Never ever ever ever forget that Sikhs see Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh JI as one. According to our Guru we should be fighting Islamic fanaticism (as other extreme dushhts). Why aren't people like yourself confronting the jerks in your own community and leaving it to us? Are you cowards?
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear DalSingh-Ji,

I think I have already said enough on this topic. If you simply want to repeat the same errors over and over again then really there is nothing more for me to add. Guru Gobind-Ji was right to condemn Muslim fanatics because the Sufis say exactly the same thing. Please refer to Dr. Khalsa's comments above. Thank you.
 

Nadeem

SPNer
Mar 8, 2007
112
6
United Kingdom
Dear Shernee,

Dr. Khalsa, in his earlier post on Hazrat Mian Mir-Ji, has indicated that fundamentalists exist in all groups (i.e you can find Sikh, Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists who basically say the same thing) - why should I pay any attention to your mistaken belief that I am not interested in Gurbani or any other aspect of Sikhism, just because you make the mistake of lumping all Muslims together? And yes, Hazrat Mian Mir-Ji is very important to this discussion.

If you read the thread, you will clearly see my interest in Gurbani/Kirtan and Naam Japna - but somehow I think you will not bother to read them simply because you have concluded that I am "just another Muslim". You can barely conceal your prejudice which is a real shame.You are interested in labelling people and judging them from your own very narrow point of view whereas I am interested in what goes beyong labels - there is no Hindu and there is no Muslim - these are the words of Guru Nanak-Ji.

Also, for your information, I am NOT a Pakistani Muslim! Be Warned!
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
Dr. Khalsa, in his earlier post on Hazrat Mian Mir-Ji, has indicated that fundamentalists exist in all groups (i.e you can find Sikh, Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists who basically say the same thing)

the difference between islam and other religions is that fundamentalists exists
in other religions.but in islam you have to find liberals because majority of them are fundamentalists.
 

makkanz

SPNer
Feb 2, 2007
42
3
Hello everyone, i am glad to see there is some robust debate and that we are trying to respect each other while we are having this debate. It is in some places getting personal which really does not add any value to the debate. The basic question in this thread was why a muslim sikh marriage was frowned upon. I have read postings detailing why from a historical perspective there is resistance and apprehension (putting it mildly). I am still not clear on the religious perspective. Nadeem, thank you for your contributions. I would also like to hear some unemotional perspectives from respected sikh philosphers. Thank you
 

makkanz

SPNer
Feb 2, 2007
42
3
I would also like inquire from a religious perspective whether both religions can co-exist in a relationship. One is a faith the other is a religion? Both with similar messages to a large extent. Can the two co-exist? Apologies for being totally ignorant but the purpose of posting here is to ask these types of questions.
 
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