Hinduism Is Sikhism Hinduism ?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

vijaydeepsingh,

Das is sure that you can not be a Sikh or Singh and you do not have uncut hairs.
for Sikh there is nothing impposible as our God is capable to do anything.

Nowwhere in the Shri-Guru-Granth the doctrine of the five K's mentioned.
Maybe Guru Gobind Singh said that but there is no documentary evidence.
Not even in the Dasam-Granth which many people use the Guru's discouragement
of idol worship. The quote selectively coz the same people say also doubt
the authencity of the Dasam-Granth when it doesn't suit them.
There is no compulsion in Religion.

And if it really were true that God can do anything I don't think God agrees with the
present interpretation of the Granth by the likes of SGPC and london/toronto sipahi clowns.
Were Wahe-guru really in agreement there would have been more sikh in the world than
the present insignificant number of 2.5 crore.

Say what is the possibility that the Sikh faith anthropied(stopped growing)
because of the five K's doctrine ??

Thanks.

Well so far das is aware tha you have not seen the Last page of Dasham Granth,which has Sikhi Rahit of 5Ks but interstingly Guru tells that it is there since past also(Before him also).

Sarbloh Granth talks of Trai Mudra again as it was in past.When you talk of Guru Ganth Sahib Ji,then rember that there are mnay things regaring persona life which First Master did but are not mentio0ned in Guru Granth Sahib,Guru was Second Gurudev of Shater Vidiya and his Khanda is kept at Patna Sahib obtained from a Brhmin in orrisa who for geenration worshipeed Weapon of Guru Nanak.Same Guru told Mardana to keep uncut hairs and keep Kahsehra and thats why Sarbloh Granth tells of Trai Mudra Sincce past.

coming to insignificance of 2.5 crores well boy they are only Punajbsi and you do not kn ow still larger polutaltion and many of your hindus (Das is could be one)who are in way to discard hinduism and and Becoing Sikh.

In your country ,your Hindu population percentage is droppping while we increae many fold.(Not in Punjab but in central and easten Area).

And it is further shamefull on your part as in your Manu Samriti shaving head and face hairs was a punshment and humiliation ajnd old Aryan or Sanatan Dharmis use to keep uncut hairs.

Bijai Mukt Sakhi 10 clearly state Sikhs to be Adi(intial to) Hindus.Ie we under the guiadance of Guru rrevert to from of forefathers of Hindus by keeping uncut hairs.In this is rise only from Zero to more.

And when you aske our significance then go and ask your defance forces or say intelleigence agency or rather join one and you will know that.

yuor creed may run away from war and commit suicide(as Hari Raj Chauhan ,the yuonger brother of Prithvi Raj Chauhan did).


It is this insignicance creed ,which contorls more then 20 percent of your econmomy and Heads the country and miliary Both.


how significant could be you 100 crore Hin dus can be found by the fact that Indian inspite of being a Hindu country is still not a Hindu Rashtra and very own Hindus which should help to get Hindu Nation,just for personal interset chose left or congress.

It is still not possible for you to do a rally peacfully in Doda and carry out Durga Puja in shillong while both are in your Counrty.

We had mosques of a Gurudwaras in Lahore and Two in Delhi,in all the places we regained.But you 322 Temples stil occupied by mosques or churches and Three main Temples of Ayodhya,Mathura and Kashi still not under full contraol.

Das gvies you a link below which tells the significane of numbers of your Hindu forefathers,When Taimur Lame Attacked all ran away,had they even jumped on the invaders ,they would have been done to deth by weitgth of the public.

http://www.amritworld.com/book_reviews/hindu_itihas_haaron_ki_dastan.html


At the most das would like you to understand that a person like das who underwent mundan Sanskar and use to have Janeu and as per direction of Guru discareded them for Five ks might have found something after having them after confessing Akal as God.

5Ks are secandory,Frist you need to have Akal as your God and in each and every atom,If you realse the same you will wear 5ks.

First faith is to be developed.

lastly we have time als o givne in Sau Sakhi and it is not far awy when our number will not increase but we will increaese in Sternght.We are Dog of Akal and we will take care of cowards sorry Cows like Hindus by ruling them and protecting them.Read Sau Sakhi and Karni Nammah.

For Das there in no differance between Sanatan Dharmi and Sikh but Hinduism is salve mentiality and boosting it is further shmelessly boosting insult on race.Say {censored} is a derogaotry remark,shoule hindus say Garv Se Kahe Hum {censored} Hain?

Laslty do ask Nihu7ngs,why they call themselves 96 Crori and you will now why Akal kept as apperntly 2.5 crroes in your eyes.

 

[bulleshah]

vijaydeepsingh,

Well so far das is aware tha you have not seen the Last page of Dasham Granth,
which has Sikhi Rahit of 5Ks but interstingly Guru tells that it is there since past
also(Before him also).

The question I asked was whether we find it in the Guru Granth. There are many
things the Dasam-Granth says I know but you won't believe in all of them.

coming to insignificance of 2.5 crores well boy they are only Punajbsi and you do
not kn ow still larger polutaltion and many of your hindus (Das is could be one)who
are in way to discard hinduism and and Becoing Sikh.

A Hindu never ceases to be a Hindu no matter what he becomes. One of the greatest
modern Sikh leaders, Master Tara Singh, petitioned the GoI to provide special benefits
to Harijan Sikhs! He was also one of the founding members of the VHP! At a meeting in
Bombay on August 19, 1964, Tara Singh declared, "Sikhs and Hindus are not separate.
Sikhs will survive only if Hindus survive. Sikhs are part and parcel of the Hindu Society.
Guru Govind Singhji brought in Gurumukhi the wisdom and philosophy from our scriptures
and Puranas. Are we going to give up this heritage?"

The separate-religion thing is plain BS. Most of the sikh posts are anyway filled with
cusswords for Hinduism, a la "monkey god," "cow-worshippers," etc -- stuff Hindus normally
associate with Pakis on Usenet. The ones which aren't, still make points about how different
Sikhism is in terms of monotheism and caste. Obviously, none has the wherewithal to grasp
the passage on Niraakaar Parmeshwar, so I'll let it pass. But, don't talk to me of any casteless
society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians demand reservations for their OBCs.
Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri,
Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what Indian society follows
-- so cut the crap.

And it is further shamefull on your part as in your Manu Samriti shaving head and face hairs
was a punshment and humiliation ajnd old Aryan or Sanatan Dharmis use to keep uncut hairs.

I know it is shameful and needs change and this is one thing we are quite capable of and
brave openly acknowledge. Can you match that. ??

how significant could be you 100 crore Hin dus can be found by the fact that Indian inspite
of being a Hindu country is still not a Hindu Rashtra and very own Hindus which should help
to get Hindu Nation,just for personal interset chose left or congress.

You forgot the first Prime-Minister of India the Indian's elected was a self proclaimed athiest.
Can any-one match that ??

Das gvies you a link below which tells the significane of numbers of your Hindu forefathers,
When Taimur Lame Attacked all ran away,had they even jumped on the invaders ,they would
have been done to deth by weitgth of the public.

We know and acknowledge we lost many many wars but tell me how many wars Guru Tegh
Bahadur won ?? And Guru Gobind Singh ?? They both were killed by Aurangzeb wern't they ??


Get real.


Many Sikh writings and Sikhs themselves claim that the Sikhs were almost solely responsible
for the virtual defeat of the Mughal Empire in India by the mid-18th century. They then go
on to make claims like "if it wasn't for our Gurus all you Hindus would have been converted
to Islam". That is a joke, a myth that seriously needs exposing. To say that the Hindu religion,
which has existed for thousands of years and commands a following of 900 million today was
saved from extermination by the Sikhs is a travesty of the truth. Also the Sikh contribution
and sacrifices for the defeat of the Mughal forces, which we do not wish to denigrate,
was in effect quite marginal compared to the military victories of several other Hindu groups,
particularly the Marathas. The lasting Sikh victories only took place and were only possible
after the Marathas had already broken the back of the Moghul Empire.

Virtually every inch of India was liberated from the Muslims before
the British began their diplomatic take over of India, and the Punjab
and some of the surrounding areas, where the Sikhs mainly fought was
a relatively small portion of the land. Some areas in India, such as
Assam, were never conquered throughout the entire thousand years of
Islamic assaults, despite many invasion attempts. Most of India was
liberated by the great Marathas and other Hindu militias.


Thanks.

 

[kds1980]

bulle shah please correct your history

"we know and acknowledge we lost many many wars but tell me how many wars Guru Tegh
Bahadur won ?? And Guru Gobind Singh ?? They both were killed by Aurangzeb wern't they "

guru tegh bahadur was not warrior neither he has army.also guru gobind singh ji died in 1708 and aurangzeb in 1707.guru gobind singh ji too neither has large army.what he taught the sikhs that when you are fighting for the right sacrfice everything even your family but don't accept defeat.and btw what was the population of sikhs at that time
0.2% or less and what was the population of hindus when muslims started attacking india 100%.don't compare coward hindu kings with the gurus who despite everything men material and wealth lost india.

on the issue of mughals neither sikhs nor marathas defeated them due to their internal conflicts they became weak and many invaders like nadir shah attacked them looted delhi.infact marathas on many occassions works as their agent.maratha did not have any interest in liberating punjab take a look at this
http://www.afghan-network.net/Culture/ahmadshah.html

The administration of Timur Shah for one year, from May 1757 to April 1758, was a period of utter lawlessness and disorder. The Sikh community, infuriated by the maltreatment of one of its leaders, rose in rebellion on all sides. Adina Beg Khan, governor of the Julundur Doab, revolting against the Afghans, called in the marathas to help him. A large army of the Marathas under the command of Raghunath Rao invaded the Punjab in April 1758, occupied Lahore and expelled the Afghans. They retired from the Punjab leaving Adina Beg Khan as their governor there.
But the occupation of Lahore by the Marathas did not last for more than six months.

so marathas gave back punjab to muslims.

"virtually every inch of India was liberated from the Muslims before
the British began their diplomatic take over of India"

just take a look at this

http://www.indiastar.com/wallia7.htm

in the neighbourhood of marathas tipu sultan was doing these atrocities and they were doing nothing.india was not liberated before the britishers.

the reality is hindus never defended their religion and still they not doing anything.the states like assam are facing threats from illegal muslim population from bangladesh and they have continued there muslim appeasement policies.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

vijaydeepsingh,

Well so far das is aware tha you have not seen the Last page of Dasham Granth,
which has Sikhi Rahit of 5Ks but interstingly Guru tells that it is there since past
also(Before him also).

The question I asked was whether we find it in the Guru Granth. There are many
things the Dasam-Granth says I know but you won't believe in all of them.

Das is Santani and belvie in Four Vedas,Four Kateb and Threre of the Six scriputres.

Did you r Veda say that not to eat cow yet you do not eat that?

coming to insignificance of 2.5 crores well boy they are only Punajbsi and you do
not kn ow still larger polutaltion and many of your hindus (Das is could be one)who
are in way to discard hinduism and and Becoing Sikh.
 
[QUOTE]

A Hindu never ceases to be a Hindu no matter what he becomes. One of the greatest
modern Sikh leaders, Master Tara Singh, petitioned the GoI to provide special benefits
to Harijan Sikhs! He was also one of the founding members of the VHP! At a meeting in
Bombay on August 19, 1964, Tara Singh declared, "Sikhs and Hindus are not separate.
Sikhs will survive only if Hindus survive. Sikhs are part and parcel of the Hindu Society.
Guru Govind Singhji brought in Gurumukhi the wisdom and philosophy from our scriptures
and Puranas. Are we going to give up this heritage?"

Tara Singh is behold as traitor and Reservation is was done in general to let its oppser Dr Ambedkar be defeated by Jagjevan Ram.

and what about Ambedkar himslef and what al does he write about your inhuan so called faith.Can he stil be a Hindu.

Waht about Malik Kafur or Suhbhatt both were converts and champoin to destroy many temples in South and Kashmeer respectivly.

The separate-religion thing is plain BS. Most of the sikh posts are anyway filled with
cusswords for Hinduism, a la "monkey god," "cow-worshippers," etc -- stuff Hindus normally
associate with Pakis on Usenet. The ones which aren't, still make points about how different

This is using unpariamentary landuage.

Yuo faith in nothing but a f er

and generaly Hindus themselve hate conceopt of Hindutva or Hindusim as they are bored by non sense jingoism just to get political milage and nothin to uplife poors but let rich mnaitain thier post.

Sikhism is in terms of monotheism and caste. Obviously, none has the wherewithal to grasp
the passage on Niraakaar Parmeshwar, so I'll let it pass. But, don't talk to me of any casteless
society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians demand reservations for their OBCs.
Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri,
Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what Indian society follows
-- so cut the crap.

Hindusim it slef is castim and due to your pagan conoverts it found the way in others but when root ie hindusim is over it will vanish.

And it is further shamefull on your part as in your Manu Samriti shaving head and face hairs
was a punshment and humiliation ajnd old Aryan or Sanatan Dharmis use to keep uncut hairs.

I know it is shameful and needs change and this is one thing we are quite capable of and
brave openly acknowledge. Can you match that. ??

non of you follow it and you say that you aknwoledge.

[QUOTE] 
how significant could be you 100 crore Hin dus can be found by the fact that Indian inspite
of being a Hindu country is still not a Hindu Rashtra and very own Hindus which should help
to get Hindu Nation,just for personal interset chose left or congress.

You forgot the first Prime-Minister of India the Indian's elected was a self proclaimed athiest.
Can any-one match that ??
[/QUOTE]

This shamefull that that person made Hindus rule anti hindu dynasty.Shame to your still supporting that foolish crreed.

Das gvies you a link below which tells the significane of numbers of your Hindu forefathers,
When Taimur Lame Attacked all ran away,had they even jumped on the invaders ,they would
have been done to deth by weitgth of the public.

We know and acknowledge we lost many many wars but tell me how many wars Guru Tegh
Bahadur won ?? And Guru Gobind Singh ?? They both were killed by Aurangzeb wern't they ??


Get real.

And we kept of avenging and not like converting the whole family into isalm say Gokul Jat opf Tilpat or Kyam Khanins or Bargujar.

Got more real.

Many Sikh writings and Sikhs themselves claim that the Sikhs were almost solely responsible
for the virtual defeat of the Mughal Empire in India by the mid-18th century. They then go
on to make claims like "if it wasn't for our Gurus all you Hindus would have been converted
to Islam". That is a joke, a myth that seriously needs exposing. To say that the Hindu religion,
which has existed for thousands of years and commands a following of 900 million today was
saved from extermination by the Sikhs is a travesty of the truth. Also the Sikh contribution
and sacrifices for the defeat of the Mughal forces, which we do not wish to denigrate,
was in effect quite marginal compared to the military victories of several other Hindu groups,
particularly the Marathas.

Defeat of Panipat and always folwing Moghuhl as king and mental slavery while we never got any title from Moghuls.


Still Yuo guys run and cry in battlefeild which das has seen you bllodt pc waarier if we have to kill some blody guy in paki non of you bloody Hindu goes but we go.

The lasting Sikh victories only took place and were only possible
after the Marathas had already broken the back of the Moghul Empire.

Still holding the title of Peshwa ie prime minster and King was Moghul and real Hindu Pad Padshai king under housem arrest of Sholapur fort.Very good unity

Virtually every inch of India was liberated from the Muslims before
the British began their diplomatic take over of India, and the Punjab
and some of the surrounding areas, where the Sikhs mainly fought was
a relatively small portion of the land. Some areas in India, such as
Assam, were never conquered throughout the entire thousand years of
Islamic assaults, despite many invasion attempts. Most of India was
liberated by the great Marathas and other Hindu militias.


Thanks.

[/QUOTE]



So that was the reason that Benagal,Aoudh and Rulehkhand was nenver conquered and you bloody ecsacpist tendy forgot that to take Back Attock or Peshwar or Kashmeer and did Marthas went there,and that also with help of Sikhs.

what about Cartanti Nawabs,Nizaam and Hyder Ali.

They use to make your mother and sisters in markets.

In Kasur often each newly wed Hindu ladt had to sleep for Four days with Pathan Nawabs(Pracheen Panth Prakash by Rattan Singh).

Das is haapy that yuo do not lean by past mistake and you and you will be defeated again as for last 200 years as from whole world and know loosing Kashmeer and noth east India.

Lastly dear Man Tenth Master went to Sachkhand after 2 years of Hazrat Aurangzebs Rahmatul Aleh going to Sahidi.

 

[kapii]

hey I do not get the point of all this. One guy is trying to say that HinduiSm == sikhism or vice-versa. And others are saying NO.

I mean think about who the heck cares??? If Hinduism == Sikhism or not?? Thing is, in hinduism there were so many shortcomings (Like casteism etc), that is why a new religion popped up (Sikhism). A lot of hindus got attracted towards it.

But at the same time, we hindus ( I am saying "we", coz i am one), were tolerant enough to let another religion come up. In fact, 99% of sikhs had Hindu ancestors (even more than that). Can you imagine an off-shoot from Islam??? Think about Ahamdeiiyyas, and then answer.

But there is no point of talking about it now, let them be two seperate religions and flourish. Gone are the days when Pandits in Hindus were of the highest authority and Jatts in Sikhs were the highest one (if not written explicitly in Granth Sahib , but definately prevalent in practice).

There is no point of comparing two religions. Sikhism is the newest religion and Hinduism the oldest.

 

[kapii]

and yes ..its a big joke within Sikhs that they only fought against Moghuls

i guess it makes them happy within. :rofl!!:

Maratha Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above article will tell you extent of maratha empire..now compare with sikh empire ..

then there were ahom kingdom, vijaynagar empire and jaats and rajputs etc etc..

 

[BhagatSingh]

kapii ji, it also a "big joke" (funny) that you did not read the second last (now fifth last) post of the thread.
When you do you will realize there is no joke within Sikhs.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8747-is-sikhism-hinduism-3.html#post25244


EDIT: It's probabaly some sort of joke that "99% of Sikhs have Hindu ancestory". A well known character, Mai Bhago, had muslim ancestors.
And recently, people in the west have taken up Sikhism, with roots to Judaism, Christianity and such.

 

[kapii]

you are giving me example of just one guy (mai bhago)... and the population of western converts is very minute, when compared to total sikh population..

 

[Astroboy]

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_hinduism.pdf

 

[kapii]

nice link

 

[dalbirk]

kapii ji ,
Here is another link on the same subject .

Sikh Articles - Sikhism vs. Hinduism

 

[spnadmin]

This is what is fishy about the entire discussion so far. It is an old thread that was started and then just died in 2006. Today for some reason it was revived by kapi ji. Now kapi ji -- you have been claiming on 2 other threads that blatant anti-Hindu attacks are made by 2 authors who are in fact substantial journalists and scholars. Now you are reviving a thread that speaks to long time controversies between Sikhs and hindutva interests who claim that Sikhism is not an independent faith but an off-shoot of Hinduism.

Rather than get into the pros and cons of this argument with you, i would like to ask this? What is your agenda here at SPN? Is there a reason why i should not think you are trolling? The classic description of trolling is as follows: An old controversy has basically died. New members may not be aware as older members are that the arguments have been vented dozens of times. The troll brings old controversy to life and in doing some manages to ignite trouble. The entire aim of trolling is to lure people with questions that look innocent, but are intended to trap them in a heated argument. The troll sits back and laughs.

If you have something to add to this discussion that will enlighten us please do do. Please do not make accusations. Provide facts and reasons.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Kapii ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem a bit agitated for the reasons only known to you. It is ok to disagree and sometimes a must. The only way for you to have an intelligent interaction is to produce your counter arguments, not just gripe about the things.

Allow me to dissect your post so I can understand what you are trying to say.

You write:

I mean think about who the heck cares??? If Hinduism == Sikhism or not??

I do care as a Sikh. Hinduism is as much to do with Sikhism as Judaism to Islam.

Thing is, in hinduism there were so many shortcomings (Like casteism etc), that is why a new religion popped up (Sikhism). A lot of hindus got attracted towards it.

Casteism is not a shortcoming. That is a very soft word. Casteism is worse than Apartheid that once flourished in South Africa and now what is Zimbabave. So, as a Hindu, do not take this lightly with a shrug. Humanity demands that from you.

Many were attracted to Sikhs NOT because of the caste system only. Please read your own history to find out other factors.

But at the same time, we hindus ( I am saying "we", coz i am one), were tolerant enough to let another religion come up.

You seem like an articulate person. I am sure you are aware that tolerance breeds disdain and hatred. It is not a good trait to have.

Sikhi teaches acceptance of ALL, no exception. That is why Harmandir Sahib has 4 doors to welcome all and the practical tradition of equality through Langer and Pangat.

In fact, 99% of sikhs had Hindu ancestors (even more than that). Can you imagine an off-shoot from Islam??? Think about Ahamdeiiyyas, and then answer.

Now, you are contradicting your prior statement of Hindus being tolerant and then coming into the fold of Sikhi. It makes little sense.

I am glad Hindus realised that their own religion was not attracted to them and Sikhi had more to offer than Hindusim.

As mentioned before, if I take your argument then Islam is an off shoot of Judaism and Christianity which is not true either. I have no idea why you are trying to justify something which makes no sense.

There is no point of comparing two religions. Sikhism is the newest religion and Hinduism the oldest.

One more weak argument coming from someone who has no idea what he is talking about. You are the one who is comparing. That was part of your whole argument. Age has nothing to do with a religion. It is in the value system.

Got some more?