Nothing other than poor taste in decor I guess...lol
Judaism Jews And Sikhs: How Similar Can We Get?
- Thread starter Astroboy
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Nothing other than poor taste in decor I guess...lol
- Jun 7, 2006
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<we should be able to manage both...>
do ya all need a fund manager :u):
do ya all need a fund manager :u):
- Jul 14, 2007
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Dal Singh Ji,
Read this article :
Perhaps he knew that Sikhism and Judaism were not as incompatible as they might appear to others. So we were married on Nov. 24, 1978.
Our Lives in Sikhism and Judaism
http://www.interfaithfamily.com/rel...ships/Sikh_and_***_East_Meets_West.shtml?rd=1
~ namjap ~
Hello all,
Some clarifying remarks: first, Judaism is tricky because is it not monolithic- rather, it is more like a large spectrum of belief and practice, ranging from very liberal Jews who may not observe or practice many parts of the tradition (or believe in a God at all), to the "ultra-orthodox" of America and Israel who dress in black with long beards. I am not aware of how non-religious Sikh culture operates, but within Jewish culture and Judaism, the category of "who is a ***" is a rather large tent, though often very hotly debated, as is, "what is authentic Judaism?"
In brief- the Orthodox believe that one is a *** if one's mother is Jewish, OR if one converts according to Orthodox interpretations of Jewish law. One of the biggest divisions within the Jewish community today is that since there are several different movements within Judaism who interpret Judaism and Jewish law differently, the Orthodox do not accept their converts as Jewish- and consequently any children resulting from those marriages are not "really" Jewish in their eyes.
Most rabbis require circumcision as a requirement for conversion. If one is already circumcised, or there is a medical reason for not doing it, one can have a substitute circumcision- in which the genitals are pricked with a pin to draw a single drop of blood. This "symbolic" circumcision is acceptable within Jewish law, though the preference is towards an actual circumcision. Some very liberal Jewish groups oppose circumcision on the grounds that it may be cruel to infants.
Lastly, Archived_Member1, the part about being turned away 3 times is an ancient Jewish custom- one is obligated to discourage a convert 3 times. This is for several reasons- first, because one is not required to be Jewish in order to live a good or ethical life, OR to be rewarded in the next, and because the rabbis long ago recognized that being Jewish was a difficult mantle to carry and not one to be undertaken lightly, and so rebuffing potential converts provides a way of "testing" them- both to make them think about why they really want to convert, and to ensure that this is something they truly want to do.
Some clarifying remarks: first, Judaism is tricky because is it not monolithic- rather, it is more like a large spectrum of belief and practice, ranging from very liberal Jews who may not observe or practice many parts of the tradition (or believe in a God at all), to the "ultra-orthodox" of America and Israel who dress in black with long beards. I am not aware of how non-religious Sikh culture operates, but within Jewish culture and Judaism, the category of "who is a ***" is a rather large tent, though often very hotly debated, as is, "what is authentic Judaism?"
In brief- the Orthodox believe that one is a *** if one's mother is Jewish, OR if one converts according to Orthodox interpretations of Jewish law. One of the biggest divisions within the Jewish community today is that since there are several different movements within Judaism who interpret Judaism and Jewish law differently, the Orthodox do not accept their converts as Jewish- and consequently any children resulting from those marriages are not "really" Jewish in their eyes.
Most rabbis require circumcision as a requirement for conversion. If one is already circumcised, or there is a medical reason for not doing it, one can have a substitute circumcision- in which the genitals are pricked with a pin to draw a single drop of blood. This "symbolic" circumcision is acceptable within Jewish law, though the preference is towards an actual circumcision. Some very liberal Jewish groups oppose circumcision on the grounds that it may be cruel to infants.
Lastly, Archived_Member1, the part about being turned away 3 times is an ancient Jewish custom- one is obligated to discourage a convert 3 times. This is for several reasons- first, because one is not required to be Jewish in order to live a good or ethical life, OR to be rewarded in the next, and because the rabbis long ago recognized that being Jewish was a difficult mantle to carry and not one to be undertaken lightly, and so rebuffing potential converts provides a way of "testing" them- both to make them think about why they really want to convert, and to ensure that this is something they truly want to do.
Friar Yid ji
Thanks for writing such an articulate essay explaining the diversity of belief and practice within Judaism.
From time to time questions about Judaism arise and it is important to have a person like you share your knowledge and help us learn more.
Thanks for writing such an articulate essay explaining the diversity of belief and practice within Judaism.
From time to time questions about Judaism arise and it is important to have a person like you share your knowledge and help us learn more.
- Jul 14, 2007
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The Government argued the proposed offence was needed for two reasons:3
..............................................................................................................
Jews and Sikhs, as well as being faith groups are also recognised as racial groups under the Race Relations Act. Therefore discrimination against them on grounds of their faith would also amount to racial discrimination.
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=12395
- To combat activities of extremists who stir up hatred against people because of their religious beliefs.
- To close a loophole that exists under the current incitement to racial hatred laws, whereby mono-ethnic faith groups such as Jews or Sikhs are protected from those who stir up hatred against them, but multi-ethnic faith groups are not.
..............................................................................................................
Jews and Sikhs, as well as being faith groups are also recognised as racial groups under the Race Relations Act. Therefore discrimination against them on grounds of their faith would also amount to racial discrimination.
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=12395
sikhs are only collectively mono-ethnic (ie mostly punjabis), but are also very multi-ethnic if you look at the backgrounds that follow sikhi 
But then, the tribes of the jews could make them seem multi-ethnic as well. But, no point in getting into technicalities eh
and also, some of us sikhs consider ourselves more as belonging into this category:
"There are also a growing number of people in Swansea who may or may not belong to an organised religious group but who have a belief which is philosophical and similar to a religious belief. This includes members of spiritual groups which value the essence of all the world's spiritual traditions, but do not belong to a single faith, under the umbrella of Holistic Spirituality."
But then, the tribes of the jews could make them seem multi-ethnic as well. But, no point in getting into technicalities eh
and also, some of us sikhs consider ourselves more as belonging into this category:
"There are also a growing number of people in Swansea who may or may not belong to an organised religious group but who have a belief which is philosophical and similar to a religious belief. This includes members of spiritual groups which value the essence of all the world's spiritual traditions, but do not belong to a single faith, under the umbrella of Holistic Spirituality."
- Jul 14, 2007
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Spiritual Gems of Judaism & Sikhism[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]by Harsimran Singh [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Category: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Pages: [/FONT]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Non-Fiction[/FONT]
A comparative study of the oldest to the youngest religion.
This book contains a world of knowledge brought to us by Judaism and Sikhism. Although their origins are separated by generations of time, their commalities are remarkable. While advocating for the importance and power of prayer, these religions teach us that God is vast and unfathomable. As these two faiths have taught me that service to humanity is service to God, I offer this comparative study to you in hopes that you may move forward and do the same.
Excerpt
As per Sikh customs/traditions as governed by the religious-spiritual Diktat of the Gurus, woman and man undertake to tie the nuptial-knot according to the prescribed code-of-conduct. They must reciprocate love and understanding, while taking due care to recognize each other’s uniqueness, thereby ensuring equality (as equals, and as life-partners). This shall eliminate any occurrence of conflict on the basis of a perceived threat to either’s identity. Harmony shall prevail, and all crisis situations shall be dealt with, in a spirit of compromise and commitment, keeping divorce at bay. The ascending divorce-rate in the Western society and culture, is attributable to the fact that the institution of marriage is considered to be no more than a legal contract, that can be nullified, with the stroke of the pens of the two parties and a Judge. Both must strive to achieve a state of camaraderie on all planes: emotional, physical, financial, intellectual, and spiritual. Celibacy has been repudiated in the strongest terms, for it is well nigh impossible to banish the thought of sexual-union.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]by Harsimran Singh [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Category: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Religion[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Publisher:[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Dr. Singh Books, Inc. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ISBN-10: [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1427638764[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Type: [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Pages: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]138[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Copyright: [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2009[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ISBN-13: [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]9781427638762[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Non-Fiction[/FONT]
A comparative study of the oldest to the youngest religion.
This book contains a world of knowledge brought to us by Judaism and Sikhism. Although their origins are separated by generations of time, their commalities are remarkable. While advocating for the importance and power of prayer, these religions teach us that God is vast and unfathomable. As these two faiths have taught me that service to humanity is service to God, I offer this comparative study to you in hopes that you may move forward and do the same.
Excerpt
As per Sikh customs/traditions as governed by the religious-spiritual Diktat of the Gurus, woman and man undertake to tie the nuptial-knot according to the prescribed code-of-conduct. They must reciprocate love and understanding, while taking due care to recognize each other’s uniqueness, thereby ensuring equality (as equals, and as life-partners). This shall eliminate any occurrence of conflict on the basis of a perceived threat to either’s identity. Harmony shall prevail, and all crisis situations shall be dealt with, in a spirit of compromise and commitment, keeping divorce at bay. The ascending divorce-rate in the Western society and culture, is attributable to the fact that the institution of marriage is considered to be no more than a legal contract, that can be nullified, with the stroke of the pens of the two parties and a Judge. Both must strive to achieve a state of camaraderie on all planes: emotional, physical, financial, intellectual, and spiritual. Celibacy has been repudiated in the strongest terms, for it is well nigh impossible to banish the thought of sexual-union.
keepscomingback
SPNer
- Feb 17, 2010
- 6
- 7
I will add to some similarities, though I've a 'spookier' list beginning at work that is not handy right now;
-Has no one considered also 1948?...two states were born that year, in regions occupied by three ancient religions long established in the regions. Populations were transferred from and between countries to great suffering.
-Both observant Sikhs and observant [males and tiny few female] Jews wear a special undergarment.
-spiritual significance is tied (to very different degrees and in different settings), to allowing the hair to grow unshorn. I Judaism, the closest there is to ascetics is the non-applicable status of a Nazir - one who takes a few to God, and seals the obligation by certain abstentions, among them leaving the hair of the face and head uncut. Mystical groups within Orthodox Judaism continue a similar practice in mandating for their communities that men do not trim their beards
more to come.
-Has no one considered also 1948?...two states were born that year, in regions occupied by three ancient religions long established in the regions. Populations were transferred from and between countries to great suffering.
-Both observant Sikhs and observant [males and tiny few female] Jews wear a special undergarment.
-spiritual significance is tied (to very different degrees and in different settings), to allowing the hair to grow unshorn. I Judaism, the closest there is to ascetics is the non-applicable status of a Nazir - one who takes a few to God, and seals the obligation by certain abstentions, among them leaving the hair of the face and head uncut. Mystical groups within Orthodox Judaism continue a similar practice in mandating for their communities that men do not trim their beards
more to come.
Let me hold on to my foreskin.
keepscomingback
SPNer
- Feb 17, 2010
- 6
- 7
Tejwant, I...don't know that I actually have to respond to that one...you OWNED that statement the minute you typed it...I salute your ambiguous, um...holding, sir!...x-D
keepscomingback
SPNer
- Feb 17, 2010
- 6
- 7
To return to the topic *AT* hand/
I was just listening to a brief discussion elsewhere on the seeming disparity between the 'antinomian' path of Guru Nanak and that of Guru Gobind Singh, where there seemed to be an establishment of ritual symbols, etc. I was reminded again of Judaism, and the Avot (the forefathers), and how their lives and relationship with God were very different one from another, and made for very different spiritual compositions, though as is said three times daily in prayers to God - "The God of Avraham, God of Yitzhak, the God of Yaakov" - as despite/because of their different 'paths', they all sequentially reverenced God in ways that were foundational for all (a diverse nation), who followed after.
I was just listening to a brief discussion elsewhere on the seeming disparity between the 'antinomian' path of Guru Nanak and that of Guru Gobind Singh, where there seemed to be an establishment of ritual symbols, etc. I was reminded again of Judaism, and the Avot (the forefathers), and how their lives and relationship with God were very different one from another, and made for very different spiritual compositions, though as is said three times daily in prayers to God - "The God of Avraham, God of Yitzhak, the God of Yaakov" - as despite/because of their different 'paths', they all sequentially reverenced God in ways that were foundational for all (a diverse nation), who followed after.
keepscomingback
SPNer
- Feb 17, 2010
- 6
- 7
Two more unusual examples between Judaism and Sikhism; traditionally it is understood that Abraham (as the first leader of the path that became Judaism), kept his tent open on four sides so that travelers (in the spiritual and physical sense), would have easy access to his hospitality.
Additionally, a recent book called "Created Equal" by Joshua Berman (Oxford U. Press), chronicles the profound paradigm shift towards political egalitarianism and equality that was initiated by the composition of the people Israel and the text of Torah (an essay appears below, so people can make comparisons to Guru Nanak's teachings, the formation of Sikh Sangat - and their similarly-amazing incongruity with their social and political setting);
http://createdequalthebook.com/Publications/Azure 2.pdf
Additionally, a recent book called "Created Equal" by Joshua Berman (Oxford U. Press), chronicles the profound paradigm shift towards political egalitarianism and equality that was initiated by the composition of the people Israel and the text of Torah (an essay appears below, so people can make comparisons to Guru Nanak's teachings, the formation of Sikh Sangat - and their similarly-amazing incongruity with their social and political setting);
http://createdequalthebook.com/Publications/Azure 2.pdf
keepscomingback
SPNer
- Feb 17, 2010
- 6
- 7
Oops, the first paragraph about Abraham's tent was a parallel to Hamandir Sahib.
- Jul 14, 2007
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- Jul 14, 2007
- 4,576
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- Jul 11, 2012
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Sat Sri Akal, family,
I read this thread and feel I ought to clarify a key point in this discussion.
At the risk of igniting a powder-keg, we need to understand that when you dig into Truth, and Sikhi is devotion to Truth, you may discover shades of identity we don't readily recognize by superficial observation.
What is understood as 'jews' today is very different from the original seeds of that faith, racially, and doctrine. The reason this matters is because so many of these questions and comments deal with modern-day Judaism. In actual fact, the faith has its roots in Canaan, North-East Africa, and the ancient African Hebrews who lived out the history reflected in the Bible were a very different people than the largely ''ashkenazi" jews who flowed to the Palestinian region from Poland, Russia and Eastern Europe and took on the mantle of Judaism after the original Israelites were driven out, scattered and exhiled by the conquering Romans. These original African Hebrews were driven into the continent of Africa where we find many traces of their dispersion. The Judaism being referenced in this forum is the hybrid faith devised by the ashkenazi and, as such, reflects as much Eastern European tradition and lifestyle as ancient Semitic religion. Thus the Eastern European garb, the Yiddish and modern Hebrew language, the European racial characteristics we associate with contemporary Judaism.
It would be good to bear this in mind when seeking out shared holiness between our faiths.
Btw, I got a kick out of the poster who commented on the temperament of Jews and thought them peaceful people. If you were living in Palestine today, and were on the receiving end of the zionist's 'peaceful' temperament, I think you might gain a different perspective pretty quick...
I read this thread and feel I ought to clarify a key point in this discussion.
At the risk of igniting a powder-keg, we need to understand that when you dig into Truth, and Sikhi is devotion to Truth, you may discover shades of identity we don't readily recognize by superficial observation.
What is understood as 'jews' today is very different from the original seeds of that faith, racially, and doctrine. The reason this matters is because so many of these questions and comments deal with modern-day Judaism. In actual fact, the faith has its roots in Canaan, North-East Africa, and the ancient African Hebrews who lived out the history reflected in the Bible were a very different people than the largely ''ashkenazi" jews who flowed to the Palestinian region from Poland, Russia and Eastern Europe and took on the mantle of Judaism after the original Israelites were driven out, scattered and exhiled by the conquering Romans. These original African Hebrews were driven into the continent of Africa where we find many traces of their dispersion. The Judaism being referenced in this forum is the hybrid faith devised by the ashkenazi and, as such, reflects as much Eastern European tradition and lifestyle as ancient Semitic religion. Thus the Eastern European garb, the Yiddish and modern Hebrew language, the European racial characteristics we associate with contemporary Judaism.
It would be good to bear this in mind when seeking out shared holiness between our faiths.
Btw, I got a kick out of the poster who commented on the temperament of Jews and thought them peaceful people. If you were living in Palestine today, and were on the receiving end of the zionist's 'peaceful' temperament, I think you might gain a different perspective pretty quick...
Last edited:
Awakeand Singh
SPNer
- Jan 9, 2012
- 78
- 107
"What is understood as 'jews' today is very different from the original seeds of that faith, racially, and doctrine. The reason this matters is because so many of these questions and comments deal with modern-day Judaism. In actual fact, the faith has its roots in Canaan, North-East Africa, and the ancient African Hebrews who lived out the history reflected in the Bible were a very different people than the largely ''ashkenazi" jews who flowed to the Palestinian region from Poland, Russia and Eastern Europe and took on the mantle of Judaism after the original Israelites were driven out, scattered and exhiled by the conquering Romans. These original African Hebrews were driven into the continent of Africa where we find many traces of their dispersion. The Judaism being referenced in this forum is the hybrid faith devised by the ashkenazi and, as such, reflects as much Eastern European tradition and lifestyle as ancient Semitic religion. Thus the Eastern European garb, the Yiddish and modern Hebrew language, the European racial characteristics we associate with contemporary Judaism."
Bhai ji, do you have any documented proof for any of this?
Bhai ji, do you have any documented proof for any of this?
- Jul 11, 2012
- 274
- 640
- 62
Waheguru, paji,
It's hard to point to one particular resource; it's really more a question of seeking out the actual Truth, beyond the proffered version, in all things. There really is much material available but scattered across the sciences, of anthropology, history, genetics, religious history...
If you go to Israel today, squarely in the Middle East/North Africa (separated by the Suez canal in the the 1860's), and look around you, you feel you are in Europe. The prevailing race, culture and lifestyle is overwhelmingly European. It is no secret that the 'Hebrew' language used today is a modern construction reconstituted from ancient elements of a largely 'dead' language, dreamed up by one individual, a Russian named Ben-Yehudah, together with some other European jews. This language is vastly different from the actual tongue of the African Hebrews in Old Testament times. Similarly, the belief systems of contemporary, Rabbinical Jews is greatly changed from what was the living faith of the ancient residents of that region.
If you're genuinely interested in this, I would point you to the writings of Dr. Ben- Jochannan, also the book "Hebrewisms of West Africa" by Joseph Williams, "African Origins of Modern Judaism" by Jose Malcioln, "From Babylon to Timbuktu" by Rudolph Windsor, as well as recent DNA research concluding that Africans practicing Judaism in the deserts of South Africa are indeed genetic descendants of Biblical priests. This is all just to confirm that the original Israelites were scattered into greater Africa upon the invasions of the Romans, and that the Jews of today who have taken up and redefined that tradition in the absence of the original Israelites, represent a much different tradition than the African Hebrew faith of ancient history.
That modern-day Jews have come to that land largely from Eastern Europe is no great secret.
All of this is just to say that when we compare, for instance, the philosophy of Sikhi with the philosophy of Judaism, it is good to be aware of this distinction. Most Sikhs would be greatly offended if a forum elsewhere might be looking to compare their faith with that of Sikhism and then started out by claiming "Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism", and then began their discussions based on that premise. Truth is Truth.
It's hard to point to one particular resource; it's really more a question of seeking out the actual Truth, beyond the proffered version, in all things. There really is much material available but scattered across the sciences, of anthropology, history, genetics, religious history...
If you go to Israel today, squarely in the Middle East/North Africa (separated by the Suez canal in the the 1860's), and look around you, you feel you are in Europe. The prevailing race, culture and lifestyle is overwhelmingly European. It is no secret that the 'Hebrew' language used today is a modern construction reconstituted from ancient elements of a largely 'dead' language, dreamed up by one individual, a Russian named Ben-Yehudah, together with some other European jews. This language is vastly different from the actual tongue of the African Hebrews in Old Testament times. Similarly, the belief systems of contemporary, Rabbinical Jews is greatly changed from what was the living faith of the ancient residents of that region.
If you're genuinely interested in this, I would point you to the writings of Dr. Ben- Jochannan, also the book "Hebrewisms of West Africa" by Joseph Williams, "African Origins of Modern Judaism" by Jose Malcioln, "From Babylon to Timbuktu" by Rudolph Windsor, as well as recent DNA research concluding that Africans practicing Judaism in the deserts of South Africa are indeed genetic descendants of Biblical priests. This is all just to confirm that the original Israelites were scattered into greater Africa upon the invasions of the Romans, and that the Jews of today who have taken up and redefined that tradition in the absence of the original Israelites, represent a much different tradition than the African Hebrew faith of ancient history.
That modern-day Jews have come to that land largely from Eastern Europe is no great secret.
All of this is just to say that when we compare, for instance, the philosophy of Sikhi with the philosophy of Judaism, it is good to be aware of this distinction. Most Sikhs would be greatly offended if a forum elsewhere might be looking to compare their faith with that of Sikhism and then started out by claiming "Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism", and then began their discussions based on that premise. Truth is Truth.
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