Judging

[spnadmin]

i think you missed my point. i don't care if "historians" think caste divisions are valid. i feel, personally, as a Sikh, that using caste as a base for distinguishing groups or dividing people is not useful or necessary. if other people still practice "untouchability" or "ritual impurity", or marrying by caste, they're not following sikhi, and i don't see the need to encourage them.

sorry for the confusion.

I wasn't sure :hmm: But am glad you clarified. It is a wonder that these practices continue and people hurt themselves in the process.

 

[carolineislands]

Udasi and Nirmali fall under the "sanatan sikh" category... and are not considered Sikhs by Akal Takht (or by most mainstream sikhs).

Wasn't Guru Gobind Singh a Sanatan Sikh? Wasn't he Nihang?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sanatan Sikhi - The Sanatan Sikhs

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

I just finished reading about Sanatan Sikh Seva Panthi and find that Guru Gobind Singh actually exempted them from the requirements of and declared that there should be a Sikh order after Bhai Kanhaiya ji that should serve mankind indiscriminately, at the same time exepting Bhai Kanhaiya ji and his followers from military duty for this cause. If Guru Gobind Singh made this declaration, how can Akal Takt refuse to acknowledge them as Sikhs?

Panji, you should consider Sikh history during this time. For example, Naamdhari's claim lineage of Gurgaddhi being passed by 148 year old Guru Gobind Singh (who was living in hiding all that time) to Balak Singh, and then to Ram Singh and so forth down to Jagjit Singh Naamdhari. Just because Naamdhari's believe in this lineage, doesn't mean it's true.

Nirmala Sikhs for example, believe that Guru Gobind Singh sent five of his Sikhs to study Sanskrit and Vedic scriptures and this is the basis of their religious order. Just because Nirmala believe that doesn't make it true. Although it is acknowledged that Nirmala are religious scholars, their form of Nanakian spirituality comes under the sanatan umbrella because they are essentially keshdhari Hindus. Why would Guruji, having written that searching the Vedas will not bring liberation, and being the embodiment of liberation Himself for our time as Guru-liberator in the kalyug, send his disciples to study another message?

In 1875, the Arya Samaj established itself in Punjab, and some of its members began stating publicly that Sikhism should be considered a branch of Hinduism using what was seen as derogatory language in reference to Sikh Gurus and their writings. Leaders in the Sikh community, however, showed resolve in maintaining the status of their religion as independent and unique, and the statements of the Arya Samaj activists were summarily denounced as acts of aggression with the intent of destroying Sikh religious identity. It was also alleged that the Arya Samaj, which had taken an increasingly active role in certain Sikh Gurdwaras, was introducing practices that were contrary to Sikh principles and behaving in ways which would prove detrimental to the Sikh faith. In response, organizational efforts such as Singh Sabha and Gurdwara Sudhar Movement were launched for countering Arya Samaj influence and peacefully reclaiming control of Sikh Gurdwaras. Arya Samaj - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

The political forces active during this history were trying to unify India under one banner, and still are today. Thus, to Hinduize the message of Sikhism is considered patriotic. But Guruji did not create orders and sects of Hindu Panth within Gursikhi. Hindu Panth created orders and sects within Gursikhi to alter the message and identity of Gursikhi under Hindu parivaar. Today sanatan organizations, while hiding under a guise of multiculturalism and openness are in fact politicized by the nationalistic Hindutva movement which has the creed: Hindu-Hindi-Hindustan.

"It is an article of faith with the RSS-BJP that India's religious minorities do not have a legitimate, independant identity... According to the RSS leader Sudarshan, "If Muslims want to stay in India, they have to submit to the Indianization of their religion." ​

YouTube - Ban The RSS In The UK - Nazi Ideology​

Remember, Timeless Akal is One, but we still are living in Kalug where corruption flourishes. Just because Akal Purakh is existing in all beings, does not mean bow down to all beings or worship stones and statues. These corruptions of Sikhism are with intent to overwhelm Guruji's message of liberation. Udasis and Nirmalas are among the sanatan mahants who corrupted Gurdwaras with statues and pictures of Hindu devtas, for which the Gurdwara Reform movement was needed. They are of the Hindu faith, and not of the Sikh faith.

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Astroboy]

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_vs_indian_culture.pdf

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/is_sikhism_out_of_hinduism.pdf

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/hindu_prophecies_of_guru_nanak.pdf

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/sikhism_and_hinduism.pdf

The above articles can be improved by sending your feedback to projectnaad. We may include these in our discussions too.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Wasn't Guru Gobind Singh a Sanatan Sikh? Wasn't he Nihang?

Guruji's message is an entirely new faith, not a sect of Hinduism. Else why wouldn't Gurbani say, "Hindu gods give liberation, serve them and keep all Hindu practices?" But instead Gurbani says the Hindu devas had faults, made mistakes, fell under influence of Maya and need liberation themselves. So if you think logically, it isn't coherent for Guruji to say one thing and be another. It is detractors from the message, who put their own words in Guru's mouth who make confusion.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਕੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
brehamai garab keeaa nehee jaaniaa ||
Brahma acted in pride, and did not understand.​

ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪੜੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਿਆ ॥
baedh kee bipath parree pashhuthaaniaa ||
Only when he was faced with the downfall of the Vedas did he repent.​

ਜਹ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਤਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੧॥
jeh prabh simarae thehee man maaniaa ||1||
Remembering God in meditation, the mind is conciliated. ||1||​

ਐਸਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੈ ॥
aisaa garab buraa sansaarai ||
Such is the horrible pride of the world.​

ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jis gur milai this garab nivaarai ||1|| rehaao ||
The Guru eliminates the pride of those who meet Him. ||1||Pause||​

Nihung (crocodile) Singhs were an order within the Sikh military and remain a Sikh Jatha. They were the warriors who did not fear death. Some historians called them "suicide squads." Nihungs were formidable Gursikhs, one of the most famous is Akali Nihung Baba Deep Singh Ji, Jathedar of the Shaheeda Misl. But simply to have been a Nihung Singh historically, does not mean rejection of Guru's Sikh message or embracing of Hindu Dharam. Certainly Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a fearless Nihung Akali warrior, but he was NOT a sanatan Hindu. The Budha Dal have their own rehit which permits meat-eating through jhatka, slicing head off a goat in one blow, and use of bhang/sukha/marijuana as "shaheedi degh." Nihangs acted in collusion with the Hinduized mahants and were driven out from Gurdwaras along with Udasis and Nirmalas.

many in the costume of Nihangs have in the past and continue today to attack the Panth and serve anti-Panthic interests. Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh jee and a big Jatha of Singhs and Singhnees, led by Bibi Joginder Kaur also drove out corrupt Nihangs/Nangs from Gurdwara Chamkaur Sahib. ​

Panthic Weekly: When the "Nihangs" took Control of Sri Akal Takht in 1920​

Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji

 

[Randip Singh]

just for clarification... Bhatra, Chamar, Labana, Mazhabi, and Ramgarhia are not sects, but castes/clans. .

I would argue that because these clans have opened Gurudwaras based on their clans, they have in effect become sects of Sikhism too.

 

[Archived_Member1]

I would argue that because these clans have opened Gurudwaras based on their clans, they have in effect become sects of Sikhism too.

isn't this limited to the UK though? i thought most of these "divisions" occurred because of the british...

i've never seen a caste gurdwara in the US or Canada... has anyone else here?

 

[pk70]

most ...

i've never seen a caste gurdwara in the US or Canada... has anyone else here?

Jasleen _ Kaur ji


Yes there is one I am aware of. It is in San Fernando Valley, California

 

[Archived_Member1]

Wasn't Guru Gobind Singh a Sanatan Sikh? Wasn't he Nihang?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sanatan Sikhi - The Sanatan Sikhs

any fearless warrior could be called Nihang.

the sanatan sikhs, however, are not Nihang, they're "Nang" (naked). they began their sect in the late 1880s, and have many practices that are anti-gurmat.

Panthic Weekly: What do you know of 'Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya'?

Nidar Singh and the "Sanatanists" seems to be confused about Sikhi. A few examples will show illustrate this. They propagate a traditional pluralistic Sikhi consisting of Udasis, Seva Panthis, Nirmalas and Akali Nihang Singhs. Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji when creating the Khalsa on Vaisakhi in 1699 create four sects or was it the one Khalsa?
Guru Gobind Singh Ji says:
ਖਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੋ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਖਾਸ ॥ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਮਹਿ ਹੌ ਕਰੋ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥
"The Khalsa is my image. Within the Khalsa I reside."
(Guru Gobind Singh Ji)
There is no mention by Guru Gobind Singh Ji anywhere that he created, ordained or blessed any sects, splinter groups or divisions amongst the Sikhs.
Guru Amar Daas Ji says:
ਇਕਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
"There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate.
(Ang 646)
Sikhi is not a narrow doctrinal religion. If you stick to the belief in One God, Guru Panth and Guru Granth, and follow the Rehat Maryada, that will leave you a lot of freedom for your own individual religious experience. But Nidar Singh and his small group of Sanatanist followers want to include people in the panth who do not follow Guru's teachings. Udasis fought with Guru Gobind Singh Ji against the Rajas and the Mughals, they looked after Gurdwaras, but they are not Sikhs.
ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਖਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
"He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will."
(Ang 601)
Nidar Singh contrasts this 'pluralistic' Sikhi with that of the 'British Raj accommodating' (or Angrez) Sikhs, who later developed into the Singh Sabha movement. In reality things were quite different. When the British Raj treated the Sikhs well, there was peace. At other times the Sikhs and the British disagreed, like in the time of the Singh Sabha movement, over who should control the historical Gurdwaras, and there was a serious conflict.
Nidar Singh is some aspects is similar to some western scholars, who also deplore that the Sikhs moved away from the 'pluralistic' Hindu tradition under the influence of the Singh Sabha movement. He tries to divide the Khalsa in different ranks, based on military skills. Obviously if the Khalsa is doing building work, we will choose builders as our leaders, and when we are waging war, we will follow experienced warriors. But our Guru made farmers, tailors and traders into fighters, and he did not want to create a 'caste' of fighting men, or of builders for that matter. Do not forget that our war against injustice involves more than physical fighting. The "Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya" 'Ustad' also favours celibacy, another Hindu tendency.
ਬਿੰਦੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਜੌ ਤਰੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਖੁਸਰੈ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥
"If someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, why then haven't eunuchs obtained the state of supreme dignity? ||3||
(Ang 324)

 

[Randip Singh]

any fearless warrior could be called Nihang.

the sanatan sikhs, however, are not Nihang, they're "Nang" (naked). they began their sect in the late 1880s, and have many practices that are anti-gurmat.

Panthic Weekly: What do you know of 'Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya'?

Nidar Singh and the "Sanatanists" seems to be confused about Sikhi. A few examples will show illustrate this. They propagate a traditional pluralistic Sikhi consisting of Udasis, Seva Panthis, Nirmalas and Akali Nihang Singhs. Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji when creating the Khalsa on Vaisakhi in 1699 create four sects or was it the one Khalsa?
Guru Gobind Singh Ji says:
ਖਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੋ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਖਾਸ ॥ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਮਹਿ ਹੌ ਕਰੋ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥
"The Khalsa is my image. Within the Khalsa I reside."
(Guru Gobind Singh Ji)
There is no mention by Guru Gobind Singh Ji anywhere that he created, ordained or blessed any sects, splinter groups or divisions amongst the Sikhs.
Guru Amar Daas Ji says:
ਇਕਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
"There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate.
(Ang 646)
Sikhi is not a narrow doctrinal religion. If you stick to the belief in One God, Guru Panth and Guru Granth, and follow the Rehat Maryada, that will leave you a lot of freedom for your own individual religious experience. But Nidar Singh and his small group of Sanatanist followers want to include people in the panth who do not follow Guru's teachings. Udasis fought with Guru Gobind Singh Ji against the Rajas and the Mughals, they looked after Gurdwaras, but they are not Sikhs.
ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਖਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
"He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will."
(Ang 601)
Nidar Singh contrasts this 'pluralistic' Sikhi with that of the 'British Raj accommodating' (or Angrez) Sikhs, who later developed into the Singh Sabha movement. In reality things were quite different. When the British Raj treated the Sikhs well, there was peace. At other times the Sikhs and the British disagreed, like in the time of the Singh Sabha movement, over who should control the historical Gurdwaras, and there was a serious conflict.
Nidar Singh is some aspects is similar to some western scholars, who also deplore that the Sikhs moved away from the 'pluralistic' Hindu tradition under the influence of the Singh Sabha movement. He tries to divide the Khalsa in different ranks, based on military skills. Obviously if the Khalsa is doing building work, we will choose builders as our leaders, and when we are waging war, we will follow experienced warriors. But our Guru made farmers, tailors and traders into fighters, and he did not want to create a 'caste' of fighting men, or of builders for that matter. Do not forget that our war against injustice involves more than physical fighting. The "Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya" 'Ustad' also favours celibacy, another Hindu tendency.
ਬਿੰਦੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਜੌ ਤਰੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਖੁਸਰੈ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥
"If someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, why then haven't eunuchs obtained the state of supreme dignity? ||3||
(Ang 324)

I beg you.

Please don't post from Panthic Weekly. Nothing they write can be belived.

Sanatan Sikh is a generic term to cover many sects of Sikhs including Nihungs:

Sanatan Sikhi - Sanatan Sikh Gurus

From the site:

Note due to the fact on our web sites www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org we have employed, in particular, imagery from the Hindu world, certain insecure narrow-minded bigotted Sikh fanatics and personality cult followers, who have an overwhelming paranoid fear of Sikhism being 'absorbed into Hinduism', have accused us of "worshiping" Hindu deities.

The Jathedar of the Budha Dal, UK, Nihang Niddar Singh, under the supreme command of the Panjvah Takht Shromani Panth Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer, or any of his Shagirds (students), associates who run or contribute to the websites, do not worship any deity but Ekh Nirankar Akal Va-eh Guru, the three Sikh scriptures, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Panth (Spiritual Way), Udhasi, Nirmala and Sevapanthi Sikh Panth and the Shastars (traditional weapons employed in Sanatan Sikh Shashter Vidiya).

The people who write Panthic weekly are nothing but gossip mongers. They should hang their heads in shame. I am not a Sanatan Sikh but I know enough about Sikh History that what Panthic Weekly is writing is gossip, hearsay, inendo and just plain Nindia.

 

[Randip Singh]

isn't this limited to the UK though? i thought most of these "divisions" occurred because of the british...

i've never seen a caste gurdwara in the US or Canada... has anyone else here?

There is Labana controlled Makhan Shah Labana Gurudwara in New York.

There is a Ramgarhia Gurudwara in Vancouver too I think.

 

[Archived_Member1]

There is Labana controlled Makhan Shah Labana Gurudwara in New York.

There is a Ramgarhia Gurudwara in Vancouver too I think.

i stand corrected.

i still believe the phenomenon is not anywhere as bad as it is in the UK however.

 

[Randip Singh]

i stand corrected.

i still believe the phenomenon is not anywhere as bad as it is in the UK however.

In the UK we have :

Bhatra Gurudwara
Sri Ravidas Gurudwara
Ramgarhia Gurudwara
Namdharia Gurudwara
etc etc

The Bhatra's seem to be reverting theirs to Singh Sabha. As for the rest the verdict is out.

 

[Archived_Member1]

I beg you.

Please don't post from Panthic Weekly. Nothing they write can be belived.

Sanatan Sikh is a generic term to cover many sects of Sikhs including Nihungs:

I am not a Sanatan Sikh but I know enough about Sikh History that what Panthic Weekly is writing is gossip, hearsay, inendo and just plain Nindia.

our opinions on panthic weekly differ.

however, i can give more sources if you like:

there are a few interesting articles here:

http://www.amritworld.com/main/sanatan_sikh/sanatan_sikh_index/

Who are 'Nihang Singhs'? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net


Scheduled Castes In Sikh Community

The social universe of the Sikhs at that time was defined by, what was described as ‘Sanatan Sikh tradition’ – primarily a priestly religion. Giani Pratap Singh, later the head priest at the Golden Temple, noted that the mazhabis were forbidden to enter the Golden Temple for worship; their offering of karah prasad was not accepted and the Sikhs denied them access to public wells and other utilities [Pratap Singh 1933:146-47, 156-57]. When a group of Rahtia Sikhs tried to enter the Temple in the summer of the year 1900, “the manager of the sacred establishment, Sardar Jawala Singh, ordered their arrest. The reformist Sikhs who accompanied them were abused and finally beaten up... Because one of the defining characteristics of a sacred precinct, in the eyes of the Sanatan Sikhs, was its ritual purity” [cf Oberoi:1994:107].


Sanatan Sikhi - Distortions of Sikh History


or from their own website, you can see that they equate akal takht and AKJ both with nirankaris! and that they hate "dirty foriegners". we also know from the experiences of Vijaydeep Singh here on SPN that they are casteist and do not distribute Amrit equally. based on the fact that they do not allow women into their orders and are celebate, we can see that they are also sexist. does any of this sound like Sikhi to you?

yes, they dress cool and have great looking dumallas. it's fascinating how they like to keep the "old" traditions (as they know them, not as Gurus taught). but can we really consider them Sikh?
they themselves say that they belong to "sanatan dharma" (hinduism)...

read through the sarbloh website. i think most sikhs would be upset by what they read. especially with their unfounded hatred of Akal Takht and AKJ... they think only THEY are the "true" sikhs and anyone else who ties a blue dumalla is an impostor or fake.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Please don't post from Panthic Weekly. Nothing they write can be belived.

Sanatan Sikh is a generic term to cover many sects of Sikhs including Nihungs:

I am not a Sanatan Sikh but I know enough about Sikh History that what Panthic Weekly is writing is gossip, hearsay, inendo and just plain Nindia.

And so you do nindya of Panthic Weekly? Can you prove your allegations? Panthic Weekly is very reputable and posts corroborative links to things like Dasam Granth Sahib seminar complete with videos. Perhaps yours is a political grievance because you don't like the Gurmat message of the Panthic Weekly editors?

 

[spnadmin]

Jios,

I suffer from ignorance. What is the meaning then of "nindya." I understand it to mean "slander" or defamation. Perhaps I am wrong.

My understanding: saying untruthful things which are harmful to another person's reputation. In Gurbani -- nindhaa is slander and nindhak is slanderer. People, saints and Guruji are identified in Gurbani as targets of slander in many places. But the slander in Gurbani does not point to disagreement. Else all but a very small number of people would be slanderers.

If nindya means slander, then how is it even possible to slander an organization, specifically news organization or media outlet? A news organization like Panthic Weekly may have an editorial position. A reader may disagree with the editorial position and say so publicly. That is disagreement not slander. A news organization may also print material that is purely informational in nature. A reader may then express a negative reaction to that information. How is that slander or defamation?

P/S I even checked the editorial position of Panthic Weekly. They have an Op/Ed section. That tells me that they welcome opposing points of view.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

I know enough about Sikh History that what Panthic Weekly is writing is gossip, hearsay, inendo and just plain Nindia.

"In law, defamation (also called vilification, slander, and libel) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation." Defamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Archived_Member1]

P/S I even checked the editorial position of Panthic Weekly. They have an Op/Ed section. That tells me that they welcome opposing points of view.

this is true. they're one of the only news outlets that tells what's REALLY going on in punjab these days, not controlled by government propaganda...

regardless, you're right, it isn't slander for a newspaper to print an OpEd piece.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Opposing points of view is not the same meaning as the definition of slander, which is to malign the reputation either of an individual or a business. Deliberately harming the reputation falsely is a slander and nindya. In the United States, the burden of proof is on the one who slanders. The presumption of innocence is on the slandered party.

In this instance we have someone who, based on their knowledge of history alleges the Newspaper is guilty of gross unprofessionalism and publically maligns their reputation as Sikhs... "writing is gossip, hearsay, inendo and just plain Nindia."

All unsubstantiated accusations publically made without evidence.

A clearer case of nindya against a business with intent to undermine their professional integrity and credibility could not be found. In the United States it would be actionable under law and liable for a court case.

 

[Astroboy]

At one point I gave a sermon to my then teenage daughter that if one follows the common law, no one would require religion to guide them. That was my limited understanding then.