Kabeer Man Pankhi Bha-i-o Ud Ud Dah Dis Ja-e | ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਭਇਓ ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਜਾਇ

[spnadmin]

Learning and not to win but perhaps the following shabad would clarify at least one itenHere it goes,
I do believe also that ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna

is not Kaam/lust. ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna is craving.

So using Prof. Sahib Singh ji's elaboration I do believe the gender assignment is correct.

Of course I always stand corrected and thanks for your comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

No you have to be right about that. It is the only explanation that works. Kabir ji the weaver is weaving his shabad together. The thread of meaning for one word, finds it way into the fabric of later verses. The meaning he equates for kaam is Trishna, which is feminine. I bet the same we can find to be true of ninda.

 

[BlazinSikh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

Thank you, sangat Ji for answering my question, the question i had asked was one of my "curious" question, so i apologies if I've had miss led anyone to think that i may shun anyone. Like i said the friend i was speaking about is like a brother from another mother and i only have what? 3 or 4 friend two in which is speak to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is one of my main "homies" though 0

Sikhism is supposed to be a progressive modern 'religion', and I use the word sparingly, as like dear Tejwantji, I do not view Sikhism as a religion, how would your friend feel if you rang him up and said 'hey look we can't talk anymore, I am not allowed', he would think you were a numpty!

Hahaha like I've said Mr Harry Haller Ji, i only have a few friend's, so there is no way i am going to tell a good friend of mine to go away because he/she has atheist cooties, i personally as well do not see Sikhism as a religion, yeah there are times when i get asked the question what religion i follow, however by following the practice of sikhi i see Sikhism more of a lifestyle rather than a religion.

BlazinSikh ji, if you notice in my interpretation I never use the words faithless cynic as it is a huge mistranslation!

Forgive me, findingmyway Ji i was unable to read your post due to my baffling laptop, however the reason i used faithless cynic is due to the fact I've seen it in the Gurbani. however your translation made sense in the fact that the more you hang around with bad people the more bad one will become. However in the translation of Sant Baba Kabir Ji within line 93:

ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਹੁ ॥੯੩॥
Sākaṯ sang na kījī▫ai jā ṯe ho▫e bināhu. ||93||
Do not associate with the faithless cynics; they would bring you to ruin. ||93||

I can agree to an extent, as in my personal opinion if someone who is starting their journey to Waheguru Ji, should not everyday hang around with those who do have faith/believe in Waheguru Ji, because what they may say and do may us, may negatively affect our journey i.e with doubts, confusions etc. etc. And the best way for one to live their life with everyone and to also continue their journey to Waheguru Ji is by not joining the crowd, but rather to stand next to crowd so you will not be shunning or rejecting anyone. Honestly this conclusion that i agree with came from my mum when i had asked her my curious question, her opinion is if the person is not bad there is no harm in having them as a friend regardless of religion/lifestyle/beliefs.

However there is a positivity with having a atheist as a friend and that is that the more question they ask the more curious we become to find out more and more, giving us a much more reason to read, listen and understand the Gurbani more and more. God bless atheist.

Sikhism does not teach us to shun people but seek the good in them and associate with that. Goodness will breed more goodness to impact the bad in all interacting.

Ambarsaria Ji, sayings has really raped up my curious question.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

 

[findingmyway]

Kaam and Nindaa are female gender ; the others are male gender... one dies after the other once the ego or false self dies http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart221.htm

This is what I still don't understand. Why the differentiation of these attributes into genders? Why is it important enough that the genders be mentioned? In Gurbani everything has a reason and significance, so what is the reason and significance of gender here?

Forgive me, findingmyway Ji i was unable to read your post due to my baffling laptop, however the reason i used faithless cynic is due to the fact I've seen it in the Gurbani.

Faithless cynic is not used in the Gurbani but in some of the English translations!! The 2 are not to be confused otherwise you will often bark up the wrong tree

 

[spnadmin]

Kaam and Nindaa are female gender ; the others are male gender... one dies after the other once the ego or false self dies http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart221.htm

This is what I still don't understand. Why the differentiation of these attributes into genders? Why is it important enough that the genders be mentioned? In Gurbani everything has a reason and significance, so what is the reason and significance of gender here?



Faithless cynic is not used in the Gurbani but in some of the English translations!! The 2 are not to be confused otherwise you will often bark up the wrong tree

On faithless cynic:

No I don't think so. How does one get to be a "faithless cynic." Answer is in the shabad even those are not the words.

The "wrong tree" can be wrong because it is leading in the wrong direction. On the other hand it can look wrong because of the difference between what is called a "close" versus a "broad" translation. The close translation often does not make sense in English and therefore the translator gives a broad scope understanding of the underlying concept.

When you look at the translation by Dr. Manmohan Singh, he uses the word "Mammon" which is a Judaeo-Christian concept, but getting at a similar thought: attached and therefore entrapped.

I am actually OK with "faithless cynic" as a broad translation even though it is not "close" to the original. It captures the idea of someone whose soul is thrown to the winds of continual change, like a bird, with no place to rest, because actions are not coming from a spiritual center, but from attachments.

The one that bothers me is the translation of Nirbhau as Nirvaana.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਬਾਹੁ ॥
Kabīr sangaṯ karī▫ai sāḏẖ kī anṯ karai nirbāhu.
Kabeer, associate with the Holy people, who will take you to Nirvaanaa in the end.

Retranslate the tuk "close" changing Nirbhau to its real meaning and then there is a very big difference in the way that verse is understood. Of course this only my opinion

On genders:

The genders refer to grammatical genders of words used earlier in the bani of Kabir. Not necessarily related to men or women or male or female attributes, it is part of the word play for which Kabir is famous. Nonetheless to our modern eye, language is "gendered" in ways that did not bother readers of earlier generations when a gendered world was taken at face value.

 

[findingmyway]

No I don't think so. How does one get to be a "faithless cynic." Answer is in the shabad even those are not the words.

The highlighted words are my point. It is important to differentiate between a translation/interpretation versus the actual Gurbani word.

 

[spnadmin]

The highlighted words are my point. It is important to differentiate between a translation/interpretation versus the actual Gurbani word.

This may seem like I am bickering. I do not mean it that way. However we run into several problems connected to translation in general. I would be bothered if "faithless cynic" were an off-the-wall translation. I do not think it is and have already stated why.

Readers are frequently told to shy away from the "literal translation."

They are told, give your own meaning of the "literal."

Then told, "You are wrong in your choice of meaning, because you have not followed the choice of meanings provided by Dr. Sahib Singh."

And it becomes an endless circle of argument. If one chooses a broad translation, the words by definition will not match up. The important thing is whether the broad translation is consistent with the intended meaning of the original.

Tejwant Singh and I have been around and around on this one. Do you know how many translations there are of Japji Sahib? Why so many and why so different? Some close and some broad. Some completely off the wall! It is amazing. Everyone has something to say according to the way they connect to it.

 

[findingmyway]

It is not translations that I have issues with (I do but that is another matter). It is the fact that BlazinSikh ji said he saw those exact words in Gurbani. This is incorrect. It is important to understand the difference between the actual Gurbani word and a translation of the word. The translation is flexible, the Gurbani word is not, so this has an influence on the way a shabad is then understood. Blazin Sikh ji doubted his friendship as he thought the shabad used the words "faithless cynic". However, ensuring he knows that those words are a translation and not the original, allows scope for him to adjust his understanding on further reflection. Hope that makes sense.

 

[spnadmin]

Yes it makes perfect sense to me. An atheist can be an ethically centered person who is not like the disoriented birds in the shabad. An atheist can have an outlook that is not fixated on self-delusions that eventually leave him/her in emotional ruins. And Shabad Guru does not condemn but shows great compassion. It is meant to show us a way out of the fantasias we create for ourselves.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Very interesting things happened during my short absence. Now I know why I felt the pangs during my last pilgrimage.

I am a slow learner, so forgive me if I break this into each Salok. I have a few questions for my own journey.

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਭਇਓ ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਜਾਇ ॥
Kabīr man pankẖī bẖa▫i▫o ud ud ḏah ḏis jā▫e.
Kabeer, the mind has become a bird; it soars and flies in the ten directions.

A bird flies in different directions in search for food. It is in its DNA, its intuition dictates that, especially after the eggs are hatched, it needs food for the off springs. In many species it is the duty of the male to do that while the female keeps the off springs safe in the nest.

So, it is not a bad thing but a must for a bird to go off in different directions in search for the basic needs, to feed its family. It is for the sake of its own survival and the survival of those who depend on it chirping loudly waiting for it to come home with the fodder.

If our mind is like a bird, does it mean it is directionless, lost its GPS or is it capable of multitasking in different positive fields?
Or is it perhaps wandering like a bird who tries to go through a glass wall unknowingly, hits it and falls off ?


ਜੋ ਜੈਸੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਤੈਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੮੬॥
Jo jaisī sangaṯ milai so ṯaiso fal kẖā▫e. ||86||
According to the company it keeps, so are the fruits it eats. ||86||

Coming back to the bird in the first verse, it knows the kind of food it needs for itself and for its off springs. It may be a particular kind of food, perhaps different than it usually eats to fulfill the needs of the little ones. That is its only sangat/company it keeps.

When we see these verses in this way, then there is nothing wrong with that but to the contrary. It shows the instinctive needs of a bird borne out of survival and fighting for the continuum of life through its own off springs.

This effort is very positive and rather necessary.

Then why does Kabir ji make it look so negative?

Is the mind-munn- of ours the off spring of our deeds or is it vice versa?

What kind of fruits shall we collect and feed this intangible genome of ourselves?

Like Harry ji, I come across pimps, prostitutes, strippers, drug dealers, druggies, homeless in my business on the daily basis. I treat them all the same sans being judgmental. In fact many tell me that they love to come to me because I do not judge their ways of living. I spend more time with them than with so called 'like minded' people in my daily life. I go to the bars (thanks to the no smoking law) with friends and love my Perrier with a lime twist while they are having their Heinekens. We chat about all different things and enjoy each others' company.

So, if one is known for the company one keeps, then where do I stand in this lineup of the culprits?

There is one important thing I would like to mention about Kabir ji. He is the Grand Master chess player of the mind. His thoughts are way ahead of the first word he writes. I loved the way Spnadmin ji described his talents as a weaver which show themselves quite nitidly in his beautifully woven poetry. The threads are interwoven in such a manner that even the knots that hold the fabric together also become the part of its design.

Need everyone's help to untangle this puzzle or at least put all the puzzle pieces face up so we can all put it together.

Thank You to both Spnadmin ji and Findingmyway ji for this 'fruit for thought'. Now let me chow down the sweet mango that I bought today.

Tejwant Singh

PS: As far as the gender usage is concerned, it is part of the language in which all things and their qualities have genders, hence expressed as such. The same goes for the Latin languages. It has nothing to do with gender equality. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is inundated with that.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post. I have some observations on the following in your post,

......
So, if one is known for the company one keeps, then where do I stand in this lineup of the culprits?...........

Whereas the phrases like these are indeed meaningful, I do believe these are also challenging for a Sikh.

Thanks to our Guru ji's teachings a Sikh is,

1. Learning for ever.
2. Only recognized through his or her actions

As a result a Sikh really is not known by the company he or she keeps. Sikh stands by actions alone externally. Internally a Sikh is known to oneself through relational understanding of one creator and one creation. This internal one is never fully describable or to be communicated in full. There is great rarity of internal and external being same in most of us if not all of us.

Internally pious and externally pious in action is being like our Guru ji's from what we know. How many people each one of us knows of that cadre?

Examples:

1. As you mentioned and Harry ji mentioned being with so called bad people does not make you bad but if you do bad actions as a follow-up or learning from such a company, then you have issues.
2. Conversely just being in the company of classified as "good" does not make you good by default.

• There are numerous examples of politicians, people in high places, the Babas so labelled to be saints, the pandits so named be Gurus by Hindu followers and so on. Quite often only leading to discover their truer not so good sides at times.

So what is the significance of company in Sikhism?

Throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and in Kabir ji's Shabads in this post it relates to the opportunities that present themselves to be better. So the reference is a hint that if you associate with Sadh-Sangat/"Company of the pious" you are more likely to understand and pick on goodness in living and actions. It in no way allows you to classify, denigrate, rank, discriminate, etc. It simply teaches to walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk regarding fulfilling human potential to be the best one can be and the potential that lays there.

Just some ramblings.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Prayer to self, "Let me muster the strength to be the same inside and out". :winkingmunda:

​

 

[NanakFan]

findingmyway ji,

As my username reveals, I'm a great fan of Guru Nanak. I'm not a Gursikh, but practice Simran, awake in amrit vela, and try to recite and reflect on Japji Sahib as best I can. English is my native language -- I'm grateful for the translations.
I want to lend my voice to Ambarsaria's insight that Kabir ji was an observer par excellence of human nature, and posessed the genius to see Waheguru's hand in everything, and then in addition to this gift, to be able to translate via metaphor and simple analogies,spiritual messages and wisdom that might othewise go unnoticed.
There is much in the saloks here. I take away, the importance of keeping God in mind, in keeping close to Sangat.
I am moved by this:
Jin har kā nām na cẖeṯi▫o kahā bẖulāne a▫or. ||92||
Those who do not remember the Lord's Name - why do they delude themselves in other pursuits? ||92|| :
This shows the fundamental priority of God Mindedness, and gives me confidence that more than 600 years after Kabir wrote these truths, that all of my hundreds of hours spend every years practicing Waheguru Simran
are exactly what I need to be doing to begin my day.:sippingcoffeemunda:

 

[Harry Haller]

findingmyway ji,

As my username reveals, I'm a great fan of Guru Nanak. I'm not a Gursikh, but practice Simran, awake in amrit vela, and try to recite and reflect on Japji Sahib as best I can. English is my native language -- I'm grateful for the translations.
I want to lend my voice to Ambarsaria's insight that Kabir ji was an observer par excellence of human nature, and posessed the genius to see Waheguru's hand in everything, and then in addition to this gift, to be able to translate via metaphor and simple analogies,spiritual messages and wisdom that might othewise go unnoticed.
There is much in the saloks here. I take away, the importance of keeping God in mind, in keeping close to Sangat.
I am moved by this:
Jin har kā nām na cẖeṯi▫o kahā bẖulāne a▫or. ||92||
Those who do not remember the Lord's Name - why do they delude themselves in other pursuits? ||92|| :
This shows the fundamental priority of God Mindedness, and gives me confidence that more than 600 years after Kabir wrote these truths, that all of my hundreds of hours spend every years practicing Waheguru Simran
are exactly what I need to be doing to begin my day.:sippingcoffeemunda:

you may wish to contact Chazji, I think he would love to hear from you

 

[ravneet_sb]

Learning and not to win but perhaps the following shabad would clarify at least one itenHere it goes,
I do believe also that ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna

is not Kaam/lust. ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna is craving.

So using Prof. Sahib Singh ji's elaboration I do believe the gender assignment is correct.

Of course I always stand corrected and thanks for your comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

Sat Sri Akaal,

With due apology for unhealthy writing as I am not trained writer, with very less words available. Sister Sikhi love tried to explain me about complex writing way, but I need to get trained for English writting.

With the formed mind writting the way it comes, excuse me for English.

There is Bad Company inside, which manifests outside and senses search for outer company.

In bad company six senses die. Imaginative and five senses. These senses can not recognize good and bad in company of inner connect of evil.

But after getting self awareness, one can recognize this outer connect originating within self.

And the senses when flows ie metaphor or wind, inner gets scratched and hurt.

Writting with love from heart to seekers, not with mind. So please dont mind of bad english.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[ravneet_sb]

Learning and not to win but perhaps the following shabad would clarify at least one itenHere it goes,
I do believe also that ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna

is not Kaam/lust. ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna is craving.

So using Prof. Sahib Singh ji's elaboration I do believe the gender assignment is correct.

Of course I always stand corrected and thanks for your comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

Sat Sri Akaal,

With due apology for unhealthy writing as I am not trained writer, with very less words available. Sister Sikhi love tried to explain me about complex writing way, but I need to get trained for English writting.

With the formed mind writting the way it comes, excuse me for English.

There is Bad Company inside, which manifests outside and senses search for outer company.

In bad company six senses die. Imaginative and five senses. These senses can not recognize good and bad in company of inner connect of evil.

But after getting self awareness, one can recognize this outer connect originating within self.

And the senses when flows ie metaphor or wind, inner gets scratched and hurt.

Writting with love from heart to seekers, not with mind. So please dont mind of bad english.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

This is not my writting, just written the way it comes, have poor english, not read religious books thoroughly with intricacy of grammatical formations. But with love for spiritual education, developed in years..

Please accept mistakes made in language, focus on essence, hope that correction make me learn from all.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

With connect to bad inner instinct when the whirlwind of desires flow through our senses which perceive outside world.

Than one finds a companion in outer world for Fullfillment.

Corrupted by wealth, power, attractions the distinguishing of right and wrong loses, further our senses dont respond to wrong touch smell seeing and hearing.

For eg Intoxicated by overdose of liquor when has no sense of foul smell of gutter

intoxicated by power and wealth the touch sense right and wrong is lost

Corrupted by money eyes cannot see wrong works.

The senses and response to discriminate does.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji ki fateh