Karma, Freewill & Hukam In Sikhism

[Archived_Member16]

KARMA, FREEWILL & HUKAM IN SIKHISM

source: "Introduction To Sikism" - Author: Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani


Q42. What is Karma?

The scientific concept of cause and effect, action and reaction is called the law of Karma(in religious parlance). A man reaps what he sows. Is it not typical that in spite of the law of Karma, man expects nectar after sowing poison?


Just as our present life is the result of our past Karma, the present Karma will determine our future life. Karma operates in this life and successive ones. The law of Karma does not cease to operate after death, because death is just a matter of physical disintegration, and has no effect on the soul, which survives.

God is the Creator of the first Karma, the origin of the universe, and the destroyer of Karma.

Good or evil by frequent repetition leave their impression on character. A man doing wicked deeds continuously will turn into a bad character. This produces states of mind, like anxiety, fear and guilt, all of which will cause pain and suffering to the individual.

Karma does not mean that everything is preordained and that man has no freewill. He carries his past Karma in the form of character. It is his own actions that make him what he is. Guru Nanak says, "The record of my deeds cannot be effaced because God has recorded them." Man has to sow seeds, the choice and the initiative to certain extent. He also has the ability to change the course of events even though circumscribed by heredity and environment. God as the Ruler of the Universe controls the over-all destiny of individual. Like the prodigal son, sinners turn to Him only as the last resort.

Sikhism modified the theory of Karma in two directions. Firstly, efforts of the individual are necessary for improving his own condition. Man is responsible for his lot. He must not blame God for his destiny. He must think of the present and the future. Secondly, Karma can be changed by prayer and the Grace of God.

When an individual learns to submit to His will, he ceases to make new Karma. He offers all his actions to Him; he acts as the instrument of His Will. According to Sikhism, all past Karma may then be erased through the association with saints, and meditation on "The Name".


Q43. Is there Fate or Freewill, according to Sikhism?

Sikhism affirms the omnipotence of God and consequently modifies the concept of Karma. Man is not a helpless puppet. The course of fate may be compared to the flow of a river, while individual action may look like an eddy, or a whirlpool or a wave.

Man has a dual role: firstly, as a person in a particular community and environment, working under certain limitations, and secondly, as an individual with a free will, wanting to do this thing or that to elevate himself. He is like a merchant trading with a certain capital. He may lose it or invest it wisely, to earn profit. He is free to sow the seed, but once he has done so, he has no option other than to reap the fruit.

Predestination is responsible for the present; but the present gives us an opportunity to mould our future. It is just like the rotation and revolutions of the earth. The earth revolves around the sun and is influenced by it, but it also has its own motion.

According to Sikhism, man is an action being, a Karma Yogi, who has to overcome his difficulties with understanding and wisdom. The effort of the individual should take the form of detached action and not, feeding his ego. He must work altruistically, for mankind, and not for the self.

Spiritual effort has to be blessed by Divine favor in order to be successful. This effort requires self-surrender, to His Will. If man works selfishly, in Maya, he suffers; if he works selflessly according to the Will of God he is saved. This self-surrender is a conscious effort to win divine grace. The self-effort is to bring the Divine Will and individual free will into harmony. That is how the two wills become reconciled. Man's salvation lies in his own effort to drown his Ego in the Divine Will.

Guru Nanak explains the point through a metaphor:

"The mind is the paper on which are recorded in the sum of our deeds, good and bad, the impressions, of the habits of our cumulative past. Against this, and limitless are the virtues of our Lord, for He turneth dross into gold and the fires(passions) of the body extinguish."
​

Q32. What is Hukam?

Hukam means order: that is God's order. By God's order all forms came into existence. The Divine Will is responsible for the creation, sustenance and dissolution of man and the Universe. Whatever happens is by His Will. Hukam takes the form of Natural Laws or Universal axioms. All the parts of the Universe are under His control.

According to Sikhism, true happiness is attained by accepting and submitting to the Divine Will. Guru Nanak says:

"How can I be truthful and break the wall of falsehood?
​

By submission to His Will, as it is ingrained in me."
[SIZE=-1](A.G., p.1)[/SIZE]
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Living in harmony with the Divine Will brings everlasting peace. Like a child, the disciple is to be guided by the elders. Everything emanates from Him and is, therefore significant. Saints and martyrs, in spite of occult powers, have submitted to torture and death in order to honour His Will. "Thy Will be done" is one of the basic principles of Sikhism. This does not imply the negation of individual volition. A Sikh must bring his will in line with the Will of God.

What is God's Hukam? The Gurus tell us that God's command is that one must merge one's will in His Will. The service of God's creation is the best way of working in harmony with the Divine Will. Secondly, God desires that man who has the Divine essence in him should once again merge in Him and thereby end the cycle of Karma and transmigration.

Submission to God's Will produces a sense of humility and self-abnegation. When man surrenders himself completely to him, he regards himself as an instrument of His Will. He realizes that whatever comes from Him is for his own good. Every misery that he faces is a sort of mercy. He is full of gratitude and prayer for all he has done. Guru Arjan says:

"What pleases Thee, O Lord, that is acceptable.
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To Thy Will, I am a sacrifice."
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[SIZE=-1](A.G., p.676)
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The only antidote for egoism and vanity is complete surrender to His Will. Only by conquering the self, can one enter the realm of God's Grace.

​

 

[Sikh80]

Q42. What is Karma?

The scientific concept of cause and effect, action and reaction is called the law of Karma(in religious parlance). A man reaps what he sows. Is it not typical that in spite of the law of Karma, man expects nectar after sowing poison?

.............
Karma does not mean that everything is preordained and that man has no freewill.


1.Is there concept of Free will In sikhism?

Sikhism modified the theory of Karma in two directions. Firstly, efforts of the individual are necessary for improving his own condition. Man is responsible for his lot. He must not blame God for his destiny. He must think of the present and the future. Secondly, Karma can be changed by prayer and the Grace of God.


2.Is it documented in Bani esp. in regard to prayer. Yes, everything should be possible with the Grace of God only. ? Kindly cite the relevant shabad/satar.

I shall be grateful for the answers.
Regards

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

Here is your answer:ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||

With your permission, Nothing is possible without His Grace. It is by His Grace that we receive His Hukam. It is by His Hukam that all comes to pass.

ਤਿਥੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਅਪੜੈ ਜਿਥੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥੭॥
thithhai kaal n aparrai jithhai gur kaa sabadh apaar ||7||
Death does not reach that place, where the Infinite Word of the Guru's Shabad resounds. ||7||

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਭੇ ਊਪਜਹਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
hukamee sabhae oopajehi hukamee kaar kamaahi ||
By the Hukam of His Command, all are created. By His Command, actions are performed.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਲੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥
hukamee kaalai vas hai hukamee saach samaahi ||
By His Command, all are subject to death; by His Command, they merge in Truth.
ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਇਨਾ ਜੰਤਾ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੮॥੪॥
naanak jo this bhaavai so thheeai einaa janthaa vas kishh naahi ||8||4||
O Nanak, whatever pleases His Will comes to pass. Nothing is in the hands of these beings. ||8||4||

SriRaag, Guru Nanak Dev ji

And, it is by His Grace that we are saved and obtain peace.

ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪਹੁ ਸੁਖ ਫਲ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥
har prabh kirapaa karae har jaapahu sukh fal har jan paavahu ||
The Lord God will bestow His Grace, if you meditate on the Lord; O humble servant of the Lord, you shall obtain the fruit of peace.

Guru Amardas Dev ji, Ang 767

In the Shabad, Creation and Destruction is by His Hukam. Salvation is by His Grace.

 

[Sikh80]

aadji,

Thanks for the Guru Vaaks and the Emotions of the author that got swayed along with this post.
I got the answer. We all have the Free will to the extent permitted by the bani only.
Regards.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.

Anyway that is what I understand.

 

[pk70]

Sikh80 ji

I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.

Anyway that is what I understand.

Amazingly true, what a metaphor Bhain ji !!!!!!!!!!!!:happy:

 

[drkhalsa]

I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.

Anyway that is what I understand.

I hope you dont mind If i dont agree.

Recently I have been told that we always have been considering ourself currents in the ocean ( GOD)
Infact this the Illusion /Maya if identify with the Body and /Mind aThen yes at that level you have free will and you are current with possibilty of movement

But if one rejects the identification with particular Body/ Mind then there is just observation but no freewill and just the WILL of God

I have also been taught that once the observer establishes itself in Counciousness ( the states of rejecting identification with body /mind) the conciousness iteself becomes your guide/Guru and leads one beyond itself into the state of Absolute

and at that level even this counsiouness and will of GOD stands out to be Illusion!

I know it all seems like muddled up and like some Sci Fi Movie . I apologise for handling such a subject in such a manner

Also what I have written Obviously is partly part of my knowledge and partly my experience


Thanks


Jatinder Singh

 

[spnadmin]

drkhalsa ji

We are not in disagreement. My example was chosen to illustrate our perspective when grounded in the illusory world of Maya -- as an image that helps with the need to understand the connection between individual will and God's will. But you are right -- once merged with the Divine, the notion that there ever was individual will is ludicrous.

Problem is this -- the idea of 'having no will of one's own' opens the door to the idea that while on this earthly plane we have no control over our decisions and actions. And the logical conclusion becomes fatalism -- we think, "nothing matters and so I may as well not make an effort." And that is not where Sikhism is. We always have the moral obligation to make an effort, to make decisions to choose good over evil.

Is it God's Will that we choose between good and evil? Or does God decide that some will choose evil and others will choose good? Are we given the opportunity to overcome karma? Or has the choice to continue in cycles of pain and suffering been fixed for us in advance with no hope of moving out of that cycle through truthful living?

 

[drkhalsa]

s it God's Will that we choose between good and evil? Or does God decide that some will choose evil and others will choose good? Are we given the opportunity to overcome karma? Or has the choice to continue in cycles of pain and suffering been fixed for us in advance with no hope of moving out of that cycle through truthful living?

Thanks Aad ji for pointing out that we are in agreement , it was mine short sighted view


YOurs questions has variable answer and I can give my opinion only after you tell who is this WE. SOME , OTHERS is this something Physical ie BODY /MIND Complex , or something Subtle than this?

 

[Astroboy]

Sikh80 ji

I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.

Anyway that is what I understand.

ਜੈਸੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹਮ ਤੈਸੇ ਬੁਲਗ ਬੁਲਾਗੀ ॥੨॥
जैसी मति देवहु हरि सुआमी हम तैसे बुलग बुलागी ॥२॥
Jaisī maṯ ḏėvhu har su*āmī ham ṯaisė bulag bulāgī. ||2||
As is the understanding You bless us with, so are the words we speak. ||2||

 

[spnadmin]

Thanks Aad ji for pointing out that we are in agreement , it was mine short sighted view


YOurs questions has variable answer and I can give my opinion only after you tell who is this WE. SOME , OTHERS is this something Physical ie BODY /MIND Complex , or something Subtle than this?

What a good question, a difficult one! In sehaj the questions I asked above are meaningless. They would have been answered and then would cease to be important. This is my very limited understanding. On this side of mukhti, WE/SOME/OTHERS is body/mind asking questions. On this side of mukhti I am asking whether WE/SOME/OTHERS are excused from making conscious moral choices because of our karma.

I was expecting a different reaction. One that bothers me a lot, But instead, I am very grateful for your reaction.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Sikh80 ji

I think Yes! We are currents within the ocean. And we only know our part of the ocean not the entire ocean itself. Unlike the currents we can change direction. Make consciously better decisions. But we can't choose to be currents in a different ocean because there is only one ocean.

Anyway that is what I understand.

Gurbani tells us that we are composed of two parts..body+JYOT.
Both are Complimentary...once the Body DIES..it disntegrates back to dust/elements...and the JYOT merges with the Master JYOT ( drop of water (jyot) is held in a container (body)) thus drop of water merges back into the OCEAN....footeh ghat jion pannee is one metaphorical expression of this time bound body backward counting towards MERGER with the Master JYOT....ONE OCEAN.

Thus i beleive there is NO more possibility of any "individual" drop of water..or Jyot/soul etc having any significance/independent existence...the instant a body dies..the JYOT merges into the JYOT/OCEAN...There is a shabad describing this moment....jal meh jal hooa raam...

The "Bad Karma..of our ACTIONS..etc is Right HERE and NOW..what we did yesterday..we reap TODAY...what we will do tomorrow we will reap after tomorrow. ALL our Heaven/Hell is HERE. All accounts are settled and books closed when our JYOT merges back with the Creator...All those tales about a child born with a missing pair of legs/blind/ etc being due to "past bad karma"...etc etc are hogwash to me. ITS on this EARTH that we ahve the FREEWILL to decide what we want to do...and our Mann reaps the rewards/punishment for that.

My two cents worth..

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Gurbani tells us that we are composed of two parts..body+JYOT.
Both are Complimentary...once the Body DIES..it disntegrates back to dust/elements...and the JYOT merges with the Master JYOT ( drop of water (jyot) is held in a container (body)) thus drop of water merges back into the OCEAN....footeh ghat jion pannee is one metaphorical expression of this time bound body backward counting towards MERGER with the Master JYOT....ONE OCEAN.

Thus i beleive there is NO more possibility of any "individual" drop of water..or Jyot/soul etc having any significance/independent existence...the instant a body dies..the JYOT merges into the JYOT/OCEAN...There is a shabad describing this moment....jal meh jal hooa raam...

The "Bad Karma..of our ACTIONS..etc is Right HERE and NOW..what we did yesterday..we reap TODAY...what we will do tomorrow we will reap after tomorrow. ALL our Heaven/Hell is HERE. All accounts are settled and books closed when our JYOT merges back with the Creator...All those tales about a child born with a missing pair of legs/blind/ etc being due to "past bad karma"...etc etc are hogwash to me. ITS on this EARTH that we ahve the FREEWILL to decide what we want to do...and our Mann reaps the rewards/punishment for that.

My two cents worth..

Gyani jarnail Singh

Two cents worth two million I think. Admittedly a little confused, maybe my brains will get straightened out in time.

 

[Sikh80]

I am indeed grateful for your opinion and the interpretation of the things. There are two questions that we are pondering over side by side:

1.Is there any free will as per Sikhism. ? and
2.Kramas and How these are rewarded and how these are settled.


It has been opined that there is no free will available with the individual as almost everything is pre-destined. Respected aad ji has, in her first post, clearly stated that His Hukum and will prevails and we are just helpless creatures. The helplessness of the Mortals has also been stated by Guru sahibs at many places in various formats and in different contexts but the finger is pointed always toward the predestined and His Grace.

At some point or the other one is required to take an overall view of these two essentially important concepts. I am not worthy of answering your posts but we learn in this manner and get the guidance of the elders and hence an attempt is made to present my view-point.

Do we really have free will with us to do that we want to do? We have been blessed with intellect/budhi/mat etc. The following line is again quoted from the post of aad ji. It is very clearly admitted that the mortal’s intellect is also His gift thus the limitations are put on as to how to employ/deploy this. [I am not stating the usage of the mat in day to day affairs as has been stated by my learned friend aad ji. wherein reference can be drawn that she is talking of the jobs that we have to do in the state of affairs of Maya, the illusion. The perspective is lost as the discussion is purely to understand the freedom at the spiritual level for the attainment of the sat ]

ਜੈਸੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹਮ ਤੈਸੇ ਬੁਲਗ ਬੁਲਾਗੀ
As is the understanding You bless us with, so are the words we speak.

Let us examine some of the issues in the wider context


A.Meeting with the guru

AYsy kwhy BUil pry ] (823-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Why do you wander in delusion like this?

krih krwvih mUkir pwvih pyKq sunq sdw sMig hry ]1] rhwau ] (823-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
You act, and incite others to act, and then deny it. The Lord is always with you; He sees and hears everything. ||1||Pause||

kwc ibhwJn kMcn Cwfn bYrI sMig hyqu swjn iqAwig Kry ] (823-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
You purchase glass, and discard gold; you are in love with your enemy, while you renounce your true friend.

hovnu kaurw Anhovnu mITw ibiKAw mih lptwie jry ]1] (823-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
That which exists, seems bitter; that which does not exist, seems sweet to you. Engrossed in corruption, you are burning away. ||1||

AMD kUp mih pirE prwnI Brm gubwr moh bMiD pry ] (823-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
The mortal has fallen into the deep, dark pit, and is entangled in the darkness of doubt, and the bondage of emotional attachment.

khu nwnk pRB hoq dieAwrw guru BytY kwFY bwh Pry ]2]10]96] (823-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Says Nanak, when God becomes merciful, one meets with the Guru, who takes him by the arm, and lifts him out. ||2||10||96||

The last line clearly refers to HIS grace. We meet HIM when He casts HIS glance of Grace. Getting HIS blessed vision and understanding HIM is obtained when He so decides and we are just helpless creatures and we pray:

piqq pwvn pRB ibrdu qum@wro hmry doK irdY mq Dwrhu ] (829-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
It is Your Natural Way, God, to purify sinners; please do not keep my errors in Your Heart.


Because we know that:

ikAw hm jIA jMq bycwry brin n swkh eyk romweI ] (822-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
What am I? Just a poor living being. I cannot even describe one of Your hairs, O Lord.

And we also at the same time cry out in pain.

mY nwhI pRB sBu ikCu qyrw ] (827-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
I am nothing, God; everything is Yours.

Guru Sahibs have recognized the helplessness of the mortals and have stated the same at many other places. It has been stated that everything is happening as per pre ordained destiny of the individual soul on the basis of the karmas. The pleasure and pains are also the outcome of the same as the following would suggest.​

kuMt cwir dh idis BRmy krm ikriq kI ryK ] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.

sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny. ||1||

Hence the mortal is in delusion and Guru sahibaan have stated the prayers that the poor creatures make to the Almighty. It is after realizing that he has none that such prayers come out from the heart of the devotees. After bitterly stung by the Maya the mortal prays thus:

mY nwhI pRB sBu ikCu qyrw ] (827-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
I am nothing, God; everything is Yours.


jo qum@ krhu soeI Bl mwnau mn qy CUtY sgl gumwnu ] (824-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
Whatever You do, I accept as good. I have eradicated all egotistical pride from my mind.

The prayer continues:


ijau BwvY iqau moih pRiqpwl ] (828-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
If it pleases You, then cherish me.

pwrbRhm prmysr siqgur hm bwirk qum@ ipqw ikrpwl ]1] rhwau ] (828-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
O Supreme Lord God, Transcendent Lord, O True Guru, I am Your child, and You are my Merciful Father. ||1||Pause||

moih inrgux guxu nwhI koeI phuic n swkau qum@rI Gwl ] (828-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
I am worthless; I have no virtues at all. I cannot understand Your actions.

qumrI giq imiq qum hI jwnhu jIau ipMfu sBu qumro mwl ]1] (828-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
You alone know Your state and extent. My soul, body and property are all Yours. ||1||

This is the state when one surrenders to the Lord that we come to understand that it is HIS will and HIS grace that are consequential only. Our karmas are governed by the divine law and He is the architect of our karmas.If He is the architect of our Karmas where is the scope of the freedom of the individual soul/jiva.; it is only an imagination and it exists in imagination only. Our past karmas make our destiny and the present action that we do are molded by the Almighty the causes of all causes. It is when self-conceit is eradicated that we realize this that we are just the tools in his hands who is a sculptor and is engaged in shaping this nature as per HIS wider game plans and we do not have an iota of the knowledge of HIS acts as we cannot know.

nwnk jMq vjwey vwjih ijqu BwvY iqqu rwih cleIAw ]8]2]5] (834-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 4)
O Nanak, we are the instruments upon which He plays; as He wills, so is the path we take. ||8||2||5||

In such a situation how can then one state that one has free will. One can only that much that is permitted as per the karmas as the karmas cannot be erased in normal course. This is His creation and we do that we are supposed to do.
​

iehu jgu vrnu rUpu sBu qyrw ijqu lwvih sy krm kmeIAw ] (834-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 4)
This world, with its colors and forms, is all Yours, O Lord; as You attach us, so do we do our deeds.

The above concept of helplessness of the mortal is stated as follows:

hm cyrI qU Agm gusweI ikAw hm krh qyrY vis peIAw ] (836-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 4)
I am Your hand-maiden, O Inaccessible Lord of the Universe; what can I do by myself? I am under Your power.


Oh My Master forgive me. I am not even to be reckoned above dust as such are my deeds. Kindly forgive us. We are all but your creation.


ikrpw krhu dIn ky dwqy myrw guxu Avgxu n bIcwrhu koeI ] (882-16, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
Have mercy on me, O Generous Giver, Lord of the meek; please do not consider my merits and demerits.

mwtI kw ikAw DopY suAwmI mwxs kI giq eyhI ]1] (882-16, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
How can dust be washed? O my Lord and Master, such is the state of mankind. ||1||

And further :

jYsw rMgu dyih so hovY ikAw nwnk jMq ivcwry ]8]3] (982-4, nt, mÚ 4)
Only that color which You impart, Lord, exists; O Nanak, what can the poor wretched being do? ||8||3||


We are just poor and wretched creatures only and there is nothing that we claim to state that we can do it.

ikAw vycwrw jMqu jw Awip BulwieAw ]8] (707-16, jYqsrI, mÚ 5)
What can the poor helpless creature do? The Lord Himself has deluded him. ||8||

Till we have the mercy we have everything that we call as everything but in essence we have nothing else we are earthly worms.
​

nwnk jo iqsu BwvY so QIAY ienw jMqw vis ikCu nwih ]8]4] (55-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, whatever pleases His Will comes to pass. Nothing is in the hands of these beings. ||8||4||

How can we state that we have anything to do. Do we have some power.?If yes, it is HIS grace only and nothing else.
​

ien@ kY ikCu hwiQ nhI khw krih ieih bpuVy ien@ kw vwihAw kCu n vsweI ] (859-8, goNf, mÚ 4)
Nothing is in their hands; what can these poor creatures do? By their actions, nothing can be done.


Guru gives this understanding:


ikCu iksI kY hiQ nwhI myry suAwmI AYsI myrY siqguir bUJ buJweI ] (860-1, goNf, mÚ 4)
Nothing is in the hands of anyone, O my Lord and Master; such is the understanding the True Guru has given me to understand.

I dedicate the following lines to aad ji:


ErY kCU n iknhU kIAw ] (261-1, gauVI, mÚ 5)
In this world, no one accomplishes anything by himself.

nwnk sBu kCu pRB qy hUAw ]51] (261-1, gauVI, mÚ 5)
O Nanak, everything is done by God. ||51


I shall be able to touch upon the second aspect i.e. Karmas etc as stated by Gyani Jarnail ji.

In nut shell whether there is 'free will' or not is left to the study of the reader/members. He never intended it. Yes, He has given intellect that we can carry out with our the daily lives .Our intellect, that we call as ours, is also under the control of the Almighty. How can our actions be out of it.It just cannot be. Freedom to 'will' is freewill and that cannot be the prerogative of the mortals. Strange are His ways.!!

[/FONT] hwiQ hmwrY kCUAY nwhI ijsu jxwieih iqsY jxwvxw ]9] (1086-8, mwrU, mÚ 5)


Nothing is in my hands; he alone knows, whom You inspire to know. ||9||


jw kY msqik Duir iliK pwieAw ] (1086-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
One who has such pre-ordained destiny inscribed upon his forehead,


iqs hI purK n ivAwpY mwieAw ] (1086-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
that person is not afflicted by Maya.[/FONT]



Regards to all.!!


[/FONT]

 

[Archived_Member_19]

how do we know if we have "free will" ?

is "free will" really independent of any influence of God or is it another facet of the "maya" ?

if the allowed "free will" has limits?, is it still free ?

is "free will" given or it just "happens" ?

how can a creation be out of control of the creator?

 

[Sikh80]

Karmas and Preordained Destiny

The inscription inscribed upon one's forehead is eternal and imperishable; it cannot be avoided by avoidance.

[/FONT] inhclu msqik lyKu iliKAw so tlY n tlwDw ] (1101-5, mwrU, mÚ 5)

The basic sikh philosophy about Karma can be summed up by quoting the following lines. No one can erase the record of one's actions or put simply the Past actions cannot be erased.[/FONT][/FONT]

ikrqu n koeI mytxhwrw ] (1052-14, mwrU, mÚ 3)
ikrqu pieAw nh mytY koie ] (154-1, gauVI, mÚ 1)

Bani admits that the past Karmas of man are responsible for the meeting with the lord or the realization of the essence of the things.The present life is also the outcome of our earlier Karmas or purab karmas whose account could not be settled. Karma as per sikh philosophy will deem to include the thoughts and deeds both. By His Command, and through your past actions, you came into the world; walk forever according to His Will.

​

hukim sMjogI AwieAw clu sdw rjweI ] (421-18, Awsw, mÚ 1)

The taking of birth in the Human garb is also as per the Karmas of past. Wherever the beings and creatures are, they are born according to the karma of their past actions.[/FONT] When the seed of the karma of past actions sprouted we meet the Lord.[/FONT][/FONT]

​

jIA jMq jhw jhw lgu krm ky bis jwie ] (486-8, Awsw, Bgq rivdws jI)
pUrb krm AMkur jb pRgty ByitE purKu risk bYrwgI ] (204-7, gauVI, mÚ 5)

The past actions may be of immediate past or the actions committed in earlier lives. These actions cannot be erased. Of course, these can be erased with the Grace of Lord. God should be powerful enough to do this. Man suffers. He seeks to escape suffering, but he does this by following the worldly way of pursuing the path of ego, wealth, power and worldly knowledge. Engrossed in worldly pleasures he feels no interest in the divine light that lies within him. He is bewitched by the beauty of earthly things and gets entangled in them. He does not search for the Truth, the realisation of which could make him eternal, holy and blissful, ending all his sufferings. So absorbing and deluding are the worldly pleasures that they leave man with no time to think of higher aspirations. They detract him from his age long quest to unveil the hidden Reality within. Guru Ji says

" Madmen, you remain sleep ! Intoxicated with the pleasure of worldliness and love for your family, you waste your life in fleeting delights."

The second part of the sikh philosophy of the Karmas can again be summed by quoting the following line that states that; As they plant, so shall they harvest.

​

jYsw bIjih qYsw Kwsw ]3] (176-9, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)

No one can erase the karmas. Shiva, the destroyer of countless sins, the Lord and Master of the three worlds, wandered from sacred shrine to sacred shrine; he never found an end to them.And yet, he could not erase the karma of cutting off Brahma's head.
Similarly, Hanuman burnt the fortress of Sri Lanka, uprooted the garden of Raawan, and brought healing herbs for the wounds of Lachhman, pleasing Lord Raamaa; and yet, because of his karma, he could not be rid of his loin-cloth.

krm kir kCautI mPItis rI ]5] (695-8, DnwsrI, Bgq iqRlocn jI)

The inter-twined concept is pre-ordained destiny. The destiny of everyman is authored and inscripted by the Lord on the forehead of the being. The various worldly pleasures are the direct result of the pre-ordained destiny and the Karmas forms the basis of this destiny.Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny.[/FONT]

sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)

There is direct evidence in the bani that the present life shall be affected by the previous karmas as well as the destiny would be authored as per those as wells. Only your actions shall go with you; the consequences of your actions cannot be erased. The tuk that explains this concept is as follows:

nwnk kmwxw sMig juilAw nh jwie ikrqu imtwieAw ]1] (460-1, Awsw, mÚ 5)


Thus the actions committed in this life that could not meet the consequences or could not be rewarded in the present life shall be settled in the coming life. It shall be correct to presume that the results of the actions that have not been settled in the present life shall be accounted for in the coming lives of the jiva. Jiva is responsible for the actions committed earlier. It can be argued that what ever HE desires happens. But He is also likely to reward us for all that we have done. Whatever pleases Him, He does; no one can erase His actions.

jo iqsu BwvY soeI krsI ikrqu n myitAw jweI ]5] (504-14, gUjrI, mÚ 1)


There has to be some systematic law for this. The law of karma cannot be better explained by the following line that is self speaking. whatever one does in this world, determines what he shall receive in the world hereafter.

nwnk eyQY kmwvY so imlY AgY pwey jwie ]1] (556-2, ibhwgVw, mÚ 3)

If everything is as per our actions ;the basic question that comes to an intelligent mins is as to how the first Karmas of the jiva were formed. Guru sahibaan have not indulged into this kind of argument and left this theoretical discussion for the human being. But Guru is all powerful, as he should be, to grant forgiveness and take away the reactions of particular karmas.There would , ofcourse, be conditions attached to it.

jgjIvnu dwqw krim ibDwqw Awpy bKsy soeI ] (570-11, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

The concept of pre-ordained destiny is re-inforced by some other tuks in Bani as well. Upon each and every head, the True Lord writes their destiny of pain and pleasure, according to their past actions. He bestows pain and pleasure, according to the deeds done; the record of these deeds stays with the soul. He does those deeds which the Creator Lord causes him to do; he can attempt no other actions. The Life of the World, the Great Giver, the Architect of karma - He Himself grants forgiveness.

sir isir scVY iliKAw duKu suKu purib vIcwrovw ] (581-8, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)
duKu suKu dIAw jyhw kIAw so inbhY jIA nwly ] (581-9, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)
jyhy krm krwey krqw dUjI kwr n Bwly ] (581-9, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)


We should, therefore, not presume that there is free will element, if there is some divergence in the present actions and the past karmas it can only be through HIS grace only and when He is pleased. Infact, the mortals do all actions as per the pre-ordained destiny only. Nothing can change the eternal law. The mortal does those deeds, and those alone, which You ordained by destiny. But that being, whom the Lord has blessed with His Mercy from the very beginning, does perfect deeds, and accumulates good karma.

so so krm krq hY pRwxI jYsI qum iliK pweI ] (610-15, soriT, mÚ 5)
ik®pw kry ijsu AwpxI Duir pUrw krmu kryie ] (959-6, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

Integrating the concept of absence of free will and the Karmas I shall sum up with the help of the following line


ien@ kY ikCu hwiQ nhI khw krih ieih bpuVy ien@ kw vwihAw kCu n vsweI ] (859-8, goNf, mÚ 4)

Nothing is in their hands; what can these poor creatures do? By their actions, nothing can be done.

Regards to all,

Subject to editing.

 

[drkhalsa]

What a good question, a difficult one! In sehaj the questions I asked above are meaningless. They would have been answered and then would cease to be important. This is my very limited understanding. On this side of mukhti, WE/SOME/OTHERS is body/mind asking questions. On this side of mukhti I am asking whether WE/SOME/OTHERS are excused from making conscious moral choices because of our karma.

I was expecting a different reaction. One that bothers me a lot, But instead, I am very grateful for your reaction.

Dear Aad ji

Thanks for the post ! I felt happy reading your response ( really dont know why!)
But you really got the point exactly what I was trying to make.

Knowledge about Good and evil and morals to follow particular path has all the value attached to it , there is no question about their validity

But the problem is that to do as above stated i.e to follow morals as concious decision one has exist as Body /Mind complex with some name ( e.g Jatinder) so Jatinder will try to follow truth living and same jatinder will reap its fruits But the sad thing is While Jatinder is Body/Mind it wil be in illusion of being seperate entity and so the pain fo seperation from Absolute( God)!

As with the Grace of God this Identification with Body /Mind and Name Jatinder Breaks! Life becomes blissfull watching all this good and bad Kramas being earned and Similar Fruits being reaped again and again

I would like to stop just here

Thanks so Much

Jatinder Singh





Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh ji .

I understood what you have written and its really exactly the understanding I have been given by Akal till now

Thanks for writing such a good Post

Jatinder Singh

 

[SadeePuri]

Fruit of deeds go along from one incarnation to another, untill we are blessed and karma is washed away by Guru's Grace (same as God'd Grace as Guru and God is ONE AND THE SAME).


dhulabh janam punn fal paaeiou birathhaa jaath abibaekai ||
I obtained this precious human life as a reward for my past actions, but without discriminating wisdom, it is wasted in vain.

poorab janam bhagath kar aaeae gur har har har har bhagath jameeaa ||
Because of devotional worship in my past incarnations, I have been born into this life. The Guru has inspired me to worship the Lord, Har, Har, Har, Har.


mittehi agh thaerae janam janam kae kavan bapuro jaam ||1|| rehaao ||
The sins of your many past lifetimes shall be washed away; then, what can the wretched Messenger of Death do to you? ||1||Pause||

jio jal shhodd baahar bhaeiou meenaa ||
I am like a fish out of water,
poorab janam ho thap kaa heenaa ||1||
because in my previous life, I did not practice penance and intense meditation. ||1||​

janam janam kae paap karam kae kaattanehaaraa leejai rae ||1||
Take to the Lord, the Destroyer of the sins and karma of past incarnations. ||1||

aavan jaan n chukee mar janamai hoe khuaar ||3||
Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3||


​

 

[SadeePuri]

pavarree ||
Pauree:

kaaeiaa hans sanjog mael milaaeiaa ||
Destiny has brought together and united the body and the soul-swan.

thin hee keeaa vijog jin oupaaeiaa ||
He who created them, also separates them.

moorakh bhogae bhog dhukh sabaaeiaa ||
The fools enjoy their pleasures; they must also endure all their pains.

sukhahu outhae rog paap kamaaeiaa ||
From pleasures, arise diseases and the commission of sins.


harakhahu sog vijog oupaae khapaaeiaa ||
From sinful pleasures come sorrow, separation, birth and death.


moorakh ganath ganaae jhagarraa paaeiaa ||
The fools try to account for their misdeeds, and argue uselessly.


sathigur hathh nibaerr jhagarr chukaaeiaa ||
The judgement is in the Hands of the True Guru, who puts an end to the argument.


karathaa karae s hog n chalai chalaaeiaa ||4||
Whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. It cannot be changed by anyone's efforts. ||4||

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Guru Piyario Jio,

imho there is a vast difference between the christian/islamic/vedic/other.. concept of "SOUL"..( everlasting or not is another part of this equation )...and the JYOT/AATMA/PARMATMA concept as i understand is in Gurbani/Gurmatt.

my concerns:
Guru nanak ji Sahib, Bhai Lehna Ji and Baba Amardass Ji..lived at the SAME time on Earth. Their bodies had individual "souls"....yes ?? Then Guru nanak ji placed "His JYOT" in Bhai lehna Ji and pronounced him GURU ANGAD JI.....and as Guru Nanak Ji was still ALIVE..He presumably still had his "soul" as well...and Baba Amardass Ji..and by now Bhai jetha Ji (Guru ramdass Ji had also appeared on this earth also with a new "soul"...BUT the "JYOT" of Nanak ji is ONLY in GURU ANGAD JI..no one else. (BTW this SAME JYOT is now in GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE)..

2. Gurbani says..EK JYOT doi moortee...referring to "married couple"....is this JYOT same as SOUL..obviously NOT...because husband and wife continue to have their own individual souls until their bodies DIE...but the JYOT can be TRANSFERRED WHILE ALIVE..as Guru nanak ji did in Guru Angad Ji..and subsequently by other Gurus to the successor gurus and in 1708 to Guru Granth Ji...
3. GURBANI tells us about MERGER of the JYOT...at DEATH.this JYOT is the one that MERGES.... the Drop of water merges into the OCEAN..the AAtma into the PARMATMA...there is no possibility of any "soul" left wandering "WITHOUT MERGER" ???..do "individual drops" of water have any significance OUT of the OCEAN ?? especially when the "BODY" (receptacle fort he drop ) is GONE with DEATH ?? Can these individual drops exist any more ??

4. Guru Amardass Ji in Anand sahib tell us..that WAHEGURU..the CREATOR made this SREER..BODY and PLACED the JYOT within....Thus it follows naturally that when the SREER DIES..the JYOT placed within it by the Creator RETURNS to its original place with the CREATOR. Guru Ji testifies that the SREER ONLY COMES into this world..AFTER the Creator places his JYOT within the BODY...and when the BODY leaves this world..the JYOT returns to the creator. Period.

5. Thus my conclusion..the Creator's JYOT..Guur nanak jis JYOT..Guru Granth Jis JYOT..and ALL JYOT is the one and the same....GYAAN.Manus ki ZAAT sabh ek pehchanbo..all Mankind is ONE....all come from the same creator..Aval allah NOOR upayah (GYAAN--LIGHT )..Kudrat ke sabh BANDEH...
The BODY is the one that makes "mistakes..commits crimes..does bad things..(karma"..)..and the body has FREE WILL - to get up and do Naam japp or sleep some more...to steal..or contribute daswandh.....and its the BODY that PAYS....here and NOW...after it becomes DUST..all accounts are closed forever. Just like ALL students have one "chance" at an EXAM..and everyone naturally wishes to pass at first GO...HUMAN BEINGS get this FIRST GO...Gobind milan ke EH TERI BARREAH...after that its up to the CREATOR....no one has ever RETURNED from the DEAD..to tell us what happened....not that i know of any even from 1469-1708..and after that....even the GURUS came ONLY ONCE !!! No one is allowed any MULTIPLE VISITS.

6. There is a Shabad by Bhagat Namdev Ji...regarding "rebirth".....AANT KAAL je lachmi simreh..etc etc. This shabad is commonly taken as "proof" of reincarnation/rebirth/karma etc.
Imho..Bhagat ji's ESSENTIAL MESSAGE is in the Rahao Tuk....Highway to MERGER with the Creator is thorugh NNaAM JAPP.
the other tuks are EXAMPLES. A) the perosn who spent his/her entire life in MAYA...buying shares, properties, amassing bank accounts...etc etc day and night thinking of WEALTH....even on his DEATHBED..his last thoughts will be...."whos going to look after my bungalow..who will inherit my shares..will my bank account be misused...will my buisness rival take over my business ?? etc and he will DIE with those THOUGHTS....FAIL as far as Naam japp is concerned. This person has "SIMEREH: wealth all his life...
B) the SEX CRAZED Person will be life long engrossed in sex..and will die fantasising about SEX..he is nothing better than a prostitute....who "SIMMREH" SEX all life long...

What bahagt ji wants us to do..is START "SIMREHH" NAAM....that is Begin to LIVE THE LIFE of GURBANI from early on in life..so that by PRACTISE..this LIFE of GURMATT becomes so HABITUAL..that even on death bed (maybe in pain due to cancer etc even..) the NAAM SIMRAN will overcome all and we will die with the name of NARAYAN on our lips. This is NOT an EASY task...those who think they can ENJOY LIFE frst..and do simran later..are seriously MISTAKEN....Bhagat ji Kabir Ji warns..IF you DONT do simran while your hair is BLACK....be warned that you WONT be able to do it when your hair is WHITE !!! Old HABITS die hard....even approaching DEATH cant change them !!!

7. GURBANI - GURMATT is a PRACTICAL LIFESTYLE. One has to LIVE GURBANI....TRUTH FUL LIVING...
do honest labour..waand chhako..naam jappo.....NOT IDLE sitting around "mumbling" and rosary rotating....while waiting for soemone else to "chharrawa" food/goluck for YOU !!( Modern sant babas derawallahs who do this sort of naam japp while their sewaks donate limos and air condoitned bhoras cellars for them to do naam japping councelling sessions in private with you know who are certainly NOT LIVING GURBANI ) THAAL wich tin wastoo paiyeeoh..KHAO...BHUNCHO.."eat".... Gurbani ''chew".....Gurbani..."taste".... Gurbani juices flowing in your mouth.... THIS is WHY the "WAHEGURU" was coming out of every single HAIR of Bhai MATIDASS when the saw began to saw him asunder..unlike the cries of Hai hai..hahakaar....or the Tera bahnna meetha laggeh on the Sizzling HOT PLATE in the height of SUMMER when people die of heatstroke in the SHADE..one is GURU..the other is His SIKH..BUT they BOTH shared LIVING GURBANI....hence the SAME RESULTS at DEATH !!

Forgive the random ramblings....some:happy:times i tend to "remix" a tady bit too much..my failing..unfortunately old habits...sorry if anyone is confused...not my intention..

Gyani jarnail Singh